:00:00. > :00:14.but withdrew after a second crash. Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk. Violence and death have once again returned with
:00:18. > :00:19.a vengeance to Israel and the Occupied Territories. Hamas's
:00:20. > :00:22.stronghold in Gaza is facing a barrage of air strikes by Israeli
:00:23. > :00:26.forces and Israel is subject to hundreds of rockets launched from
:00:27. > :00:28.inside the territory. How far has the current outbreak of hostilities
:00:29. > :00:37.set back efforts at reconciliation between rival Palestinian factions
:00:38. > :00:41.Hamas and Fatah? HARDtalk speaks to Osama Hamdan, spokesman for Hamas.
:00:42. > :00:44.Is the group now finding itself not only under military attack, but also
:00:45. > :01:20.increasingly isolated domestically and internationally?
:01:21. > :01:32.Osama Hamdan, welcome to HARDtalk. Why don't Palestinians in Gaza stop
:01:33. > :01:37.firing rockets into Israel? Well, the question I believe is supposed
:01:38. > :01:44.to be why the Israelis won't stop the attack against Palestinians? For
:01:45. > :01:47.the last almost four weeks, they have launched a collective
:01:48. > :01:52.punishment campaign against the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza
:01:53. > :01:56.and we started to launch rockets and bombs inside Gaza a few days ago.
:01:57. > :02:01.The normal action was for the Palestinian people to go to the
:02:02. > :02:04.political waves through their leadership but it didn't work and so
:02:05. > :02:14.there was a reaction by the resistance which is happening again.
:02:15. > :02:19.The action against Israeli attacks is a retaliations. They say that you
:02:20. > :02:26.started firing rockets into Israel. Everyone knows that Hamas was
:02:27. > :02:31.committed to the ceasefire in 2012 and the Israelis themselves said
:02:32. > :02:35.that several times. This time, they started the attack and we can go
:02:36. > :02:40.back to the facts and everyone will know that. Because of this, I
:02:41. > :02:44.believe, the Americans have said that both sides have to control
:02:45. > :02:51.themselves and for the first time, eight have not claimed that Hamas is
:02:52. > :02:56.responsible `` Abate. They know who started it. If you look at what
:02:57. > :03:04.international reaction has been, the European Union ambassador to Israel
:03:05. > :03:07.says that indiscriminate shooting of rockets against civilians can never
:03:08. > :03:13.be a legitimate response, no matter what your grievance is. He is saying
:03:14. > :03:17.that about the Palestinians. He was supposed to say that about the
:03:18. > :03:24.Israelis because, in the last few weeks, more than 600 Palestinians
:03:25. > :03:28.were arrested and all of them were civilians. 15 members of the
:03:29. > :03:32.Palestinian resistance Council and parliamentarians including the
:03:33. > :03:37.speaker of the Parliament were arrested by Israelis and he did not
:03:38. > :03:42.say anything about those civilians. Most people killed in Gaza and the
:03:43. > :03:48.last few days were civilians, more than 400 Palestinians were injured
:03:49. > :03:55.and most of them were civilians. I want to take those words. He is
:03:56. > :03:57.supposed to criticize the Israeli attacks against the Palestinians and
:03:58. > :04:03.instead is talking about the Palestinian side only. If he was
:04:04. > :04:08.mentioning the Palestinians, maybe he was talking about the Israelis
:04:09. > :04:11.more so than that. As you say, there have been deaths among the
:04:12. > :04:16.Palestinians, dozens killed including women and children.
:04:17. > :04:25.Hundreds injured, do you want those deaths to stop? Indeed, we are doing
:04:26. > :04:29.our best to stop it. So why don't you support a ceasefire then if you
:04:30. > :04:38.don't want any more killings amongst the Palestinians? The one who broke
:04:39. > :04:42.the ceasefire was the Israeli side, not Hamas, what we are doing is
:04:43. > :04:48.reacting against the action of the Israelis. I believe the efforts must
:04:49. > :04:52.be against the Israelis, have to stop their attack and the
:04:53. > :04:55.Palestinians will not attack. If they continue and feel that it is a
:04:56. > :05:01.good chance to kill the Palestinians after they have sabotaged the peace
:05:02. > :05:04.process, everyone knows the one who destroyed the peace process is
:05:05. > :05:12.Benjamin Netanyahu. He wanted to get rid of the Palestinians. Sorry to
:05:13. > :05:18.interrupt you, let's stick with the current hostilities. I asked if he
:05:19. > :05:22.would support a ceasefire. President Mahmoud Abbas says that everyone he
:05:23. > :05:25.has talked to has expressed a willingness to restore the truce
:05:26. > :05:33.with Israel and stop the escalation. Do you agree that there should be a
:05:34. > :05:43.ceasefire in Hamas? When there was a clear position from Hamas, in the
:05:44. > :05:47.political level and the spokesman, we have said clearly that Israel
:05:48. > :05:54.must stop the attacks on Gaza and stop the assault against our people
:05:55. > :05:58.in the West Bank and released our people who were arrested in the last
:05:59. > :06:07.few weeks. If that happens, the ceasefire will return. OK, you have
:06:08. > :06:16.that those conditions. You have just said, these are the conditions under
:06:17. > :06:21.which we, in Hamas, this is what we want from the Israelis in order to
:06:22. > :06:29.get a ceasefire. Who is Hamas to be making this demand? Aren't you under
:06:30. > :06:33.the unity government of President Mahmud Abbas? This is a good
:06:34. > :06:37.question because what we have set is not conditions. Those were
:06:38. > :06:42.conditions for the ceasefire of 2012 and the Israelis have broken it. If
:06:43. > :06:46.they want to go back to the ceasefire, they have to respect it.
:06:47. > :06:54.They cannot invade the Palestinian lands any time they want and then
:06:55. > :06:59.the Palestinians just have to accept what they have done. The Israelis
:07:00. > :07:05.have to respect the ceasefire agreement which was endorsed in 2012
:07:06. > :07:09.I've both sides. When President Mahmoud Abbas talks about that, he's
:07:10. > :07:13.talking about the same issue. There was no difference between the
:07:14. > :07:20.Palestinian position on the political level or the resistance
:07:21. > :07:25.level and I have to say clearly, we have talked over the last few days
:07:26. > :07:28.several times with President Zuma would Abbas and they have agreed on
:07:29. > :07:34.what they will do on the political level. There is no problem inside
:07:35. > :07:39.the Palestinian situation and I think the problem is between the
:07:40. > :07:44.Palestinians and Israelis. You mentioned the political leader of
:07:45. > :07:50.Hamas. Who is conducting the military operations in Gaza at the
:07:51. > :07:54.moment? There is leadership for the military wing of Hamas and they are
:07:55. > :08:00.working as they were supposed to do protecting their people. Reacting
:08:01. > :08:09.against the Israeli occupation and attack and everyone knows that the
:08:10. > :08:12.militant wing of Hamas endorses any kind of ceasefire which may be
:08:13. > :08:17.accepted by the political wing. That has happened several times but there
:08:18. > :08:25.was no place for such a question. I was just asking if the armed wing of
:08:26. > :08:33.Hamas is in charge? Since Hamas agreed with Fatah which is led by
:08:34. > :08:44.President Mahmoud Abbas, shouldn't he be in charge of everything that
:08:45. > :08:52.the Palestinians do? You have the name wrong. I beg your pardon. What
:08:53. > :08:57.is happening inside the Palestinian internal politics is an issue for
:08:58. > :09:03.the Palestinian people and politicians to deal with. We don't
:09:04. > :09:08.accept any interference in our internal issues as Palestinians.
:09:09. > :09:12.What is supposed to be done is to stop the Israeli attack against the
:09:13. > :09:16.Palestinians and not to ask the Palestinians how they are dealing
:09:17. > :09:21.with their internal issues. Everyone knows that the Palestinians
:09:22. > :09:25.respected all their commitments and the resistance was respected. The
:09:26. > :09:31.one who broke the ceasefire was Israel. It were not thinking about
:09:32. > :09:35.the respect of the Palestinian people, they were thinking about how
:09:36. > :09:39.to take more and more of their rights or settlements and killing
:09:40. > :09:45.people and putting them under siege and destroying all the chances for
:09:46. > :09:50.peace. Let me ask you this. The Hamas deputy political chief said
:09:51. > :09:55.earlier this week that he hoped the conflict in Gaza would inspire West
:09:56. > :10:02.Bank people to launch a third intifada. Do you agree with that?
:10:03. > :10:06.Everyone knows that Israeli aggressions against Palestinian
:10:07. > :10:10.aggressions will generate reaction. What happened in the West Bank in
:10:11. > :10:16.the last few weeks shows that the Israelis are not respecting the
:10:17. > :10:22.Palestinians as humans. A nation has rights to be independent. It is a
:10:23. > :10:25.normal reaction from the Palestinians. What is happening in
:10:26. > :10:29.Jerusalem and Hebron and West Bank and gather the... It is a normal
:10:30. > :10:37.reaction for any nation under occupation. But you know what the
:10:38. > :10:43.Israelis say? The advisor to the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin
:10:44. > :10:48.Netanyahu said that, is all we get is increasing escalation from
:10:49. > :10:53.Hamas, then the Prime Minister will be left with no choice but to do
:10:54. > :10:58.what is necessary to defend the Israeli population. That is how they
:10:59. > :11:04.see it. Who destroyed the peace process with Mac who started the
:11:05. > :11:11.occupation of the West Bank in the last few weeks ``? Who claimed that
:11:12. > :11:17.free settlers were disappeared and kidnapped Reid it is Benjamin
:11:18. > :11:24.Netanyahu. He is trying to sell a corrupt story. ``? You are saying
:11:25. > :11:30.that those three Jewish teenagers who were kidnapped and killed, with
:11:31. > :11:36.Israel blaming Hamas, you are saying it was nothing to do with it at
:11:37. > :11:40.all? We have said that clearly. We have no information about what
:11:41. > :11:47.happened. All the information came from the Israelis and they after
:11:48. > :11:52.day, it became more clear that Benjamin Netanyahu had a fabricated
:11:53. > :11:58.story to legitimize his attack against the Palestinians and to
:11:59. > :12:05.legitimize his pressure against the Palestinian government and also, to
:12:06. > :12:10.cover himself after the United States endorsed the peace process.
:12:11. > :12:19.This is what is happening in fact. When one of the advisers is saying
:12:20. > :12:23.that, he is helping because he advises him. In order to protect
:12:24. > :12:26.yourself, you have to do this and that against the Palestinians, he is
:12:27. > :12:30.saying and they thought it would be a very simple thing to be done and
:12:31. > :12:35.they were shocked by the reaction of the Palestinian people in Gaza and
:12:36. > :12:38.the West Bank. For the first time, they were forced to say that they
:12:39. > :12:51.were sorry for what happened here or there.
:12:52. > :12:58.Nobody would countenance the idea that these revenge attacks were
:12:59. > :13:08.Israeli tree operations, and Israel have said that operatives were not
:13:09. > :13:11.behind the killing. I have a problem with that. No one in Palestine
:13:12. > :13:17.believes that Israelis are seeking to have peace while they are
:13:18. > :13:20.destroying the peace. No one in Palestine buys that age and
:13:21. > :13:22.Netanyahu is looking forward to having peace with Palestinians while
:13:23. > :13:29.bombing their houses, killing families, and women. Nobody buys the
:13:30. > :13:32.Israeli story in Palestine, when they build more settlements, that
:13:33. > :13:36.they are willing to have a Palestinian state. In fact, this is
:13:37. > :13:41.an occupation. This is the real story. There is an occupation. Just
:13:42. > :13:45.sticking with those killings... You made those points, but just sticking
:13:46. > :13:52.with the three Israeli teenagers who were killed, when the news of that
:13:53. > :13:57.came, Hamas's political leader told al`Jazeera television, placid beaver
:13:58. > :14:04.hands that captured them. And this is what the Israelis said, the
:14:05. > :14:08.Israelis celebrate the death while they mourn the death of innocent
:14:09. > :14:15.young people. He says that is the difference between the societies. ``
:14:16. > :14:19.blessed be the hands. The real story is that there is an occupation. And
:14:20. > :14:23.this occupation, according to international law, the international
:14:24. > :14:27.resolutions, they have to leave the Palestinian lands. The settlers,
:14:28. > :14:34.according to the Geneva accords, are occupiers. Two of those three were
:14:35. > :14:40.soldiers in the Israeli army. We are talking here about soldiers,
:14:41. > :14:43.although they are 19 years old, but they are still soldiers. Who knows
:14:44. > :14:48.how much Palestinians were killed at their hands. But you're not
:14:49. > :14:54.answering my specific point? Excuse me. The specific point, that we are
:14:55. > :15:01.not willing to kill anyone. We are willing to have our rights back. If
:15:02. > :15:06.that happened peacefully, if Israel decided to withdraw now, well, it's
:15:07. > :15:10.OK. They have to do that at the end. If they decide to do it peacefully,
:15:11. > :15:14.we would be happy with that. If they don't, we would resist for that.
:15:15. > :15:18.Because I want to remind you and everyone, it is not only the
:15:19. > :15:22.Israelis who are being killed. We are talking over three or four days
:15:23. > :15:27.about dozens of Palestinians who were killed. Of course, we mentioned
:15:28. > :15:34.that, and also, when the young Palestinian was a ducted, can I just
:15:35. > :15:37.say, when the young Palestinian was kidnapped and killed, the Israeli
:15:38. > :15:41.Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said it was a despicable act. He
:15:42. > :15:46.expressed his outrage, he said that the full weight of the law will be
:15:47. > :15:52.brought to bear upon anybody who was found guilty of the killing of this
:15:53. > :15:57.boy. Can I move on to say that... This is Israeli law, and I assure
:15:58. > :16:01.you, that after a few weeks you will find that this Israeli law, or
:16:02. > :16:07.justice as you might like to save, he will release those six Israelis,
:16:08. > :16:15.and maybe they will become heroes. I want to remind you of the man who
:16:16. > :16:21.committed the Hebron massacre. They build a statue for him, and he
:16:22. > :16:36.became a hero for the Israelis. All political leaders, including Simon
:16:37. > :16:40.Peres himself. The current crisis has not only brought what we are
:16:41. > :16:48.seeing now, the violence which is escalating, but has scuttled the
:16:49. > :16:58.lead deal be between Hamas and the unity government. Does harm Hamas
:16:59. > :17:01.still support the unity government? Hamas still support the unity
:17:02. > :17:04.government, and will continue to support the unity government. When
:17:05. > :17:08.we approached the agreement for reconciliation, we were clear that
:17:09. > :17:11.we supported reconciliation, and all the steps which would follow on,
:17:12. > :17:15.including the formation of the government, and we had formed the
:17:16. > :17:23.government. And the upcoming elections, within the coming few
:17:24. > :17:35.months. And the reform, which we will do with Fatah and Mahmood Abbas
:17:36. > :17:41.together. You mentioned Mahmood Abbas, he said the government of
:17:42. > :17:50.national unity would be under his command and policy. I recognise
:17:51. > :17:55.Israel, and it would recognise it. I reject terrorism. Do you stand by
:17:56. > :17:59.what Mahmood Abbas has said that? Well, Yasser Arafat in 1998 was the
:18:00. > :18:05.president of the Palestinians and the head of the PLO, he recognised
:18:06. > :18:09.Israel. That doesn't make sense. They don't recognise the Palestinian
:18:10. > :18:14.rights. They don't recognise the Palestinians even as a nation. So
:18:15. > :18:19.when Mahmood Abbas said that on the political level, we believe that the
:18:20. > :18:22.Israelis would not do anything positive towards that. However, we
:18:23. > :18:28.have said more than that. We are supporting all the effort which made
:18:29. > :18:31.be done in order to have the Palestinian rights back. And that
:18:32. > :18:37.was agreed upon by all the Palestinian factions in 2006, in the
:18:38. > :18:45.Palestinian national document, which was named the prisoners' document.
:18:46. > :18:49.So there is no question, whether Hamas is supporting the political
:18:50. > :18:55.stance, when it came to the Palestinian rights. What we have to
:18:56. > :19:00.say, every time, if Mahmood Abbas did the right thing for Palestinian
:19:01. > :19:04.rights, we will support and stand by his side. Can I ask you, do you
:19:05. > :19:10.believe that Palestinian aspirations for statehood are better achieved
:19:11. > :19:17.through political or military means? I believe it will be achieved by all
:19:18. > :19:21.the Palestinians. These political efforts, we are ready to do this,
:19:22. > :19:29.when it needs military action, we are also ready to do that. We prefer
:19:30. > :19:34.if it can be a soft way, if it can be by force against Israel, with the
:19:35. > :19:38.United Nations and the international community to withdraw from our
:19:39. > :19:44.occupied lands, including Jerusalem, but if the Israelis insist not to do
:19:45. > :19:48.that, I believe not only Hamas, all the Palestinians, including Fatah,
:19:49. > :19:52.will resist. You have said you would still like the option of using
:19:53. > :19:58.military, violent means, which Hamas, and as you say, your armed
:19:59. > :20:00.wing, are engaged in now. But this is what Benjamin Netanyahu, the
:20:01. > :20:05.Israeli Prime Minister, has said about Hamas. He said like the
:20:06. > :20:08.Islamist movements which you see in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere in the
:20:09. > :20:12.Middle East, Hamas is committed to a savagery which not only includes the
:20:13. > :20:18.demise of the state of Israel, but actually the establishment of those
:20:19. > :20:23.Islamist realms of unforgiving, Ryland realms `` violent realms. If
:20:24. > :20:26.you use violent means, you will allow the Israelis to depict you as
:20:27. > :20:32.part of a violent global jihad is movement, obscuring the fact that
:20:33. > :20:37.the Palestinians have legitimate aspirations for nationhood. Well,
:20:38. > :20:43.you mean that we have to give our next and throats to Netanyahu to
:20:44. > :20:45.slaughter it in order to show the world that we are ready to be
:20:46. > :20:52.peaceful species, are you meaning that? Well, I was putting it to you
:20:53. > :20:57.that you are allowing yourselves by using violent means to be depicted
:20:58. > :21:01.in that way. No, no. I am asking you. Are you meaning that the
:21:02. > :21:08.Palestinians have to give up their necks and throats for the Israelis
:21:09. > :21:16.to slaughter it like what had happened. To say that we are very
:21:17. > :21:21.innocent and peaceful species? I am saying what every... I am saying
:21:22. > :21:25.what your president has said, which is to reject violence and terrorism.
:21:26. > :21:29.I am saying what every human is saying or can say. What also the
:21:30. > :21:35.international accords have said. If any nation under occupation, this
:21:36. > :21:41.nation has the right to resist the occupation. We are resisting the
:21:42. > :21:45.occupation. And instead of criticising our resistance, we
:21:46. > :21:49.believe the international community, the free world, has to bring
:21:50. > :21:52.pressure on Israelis to withdraw from our occupied territories. From
:21:53. > :21:56.our occupied land. This will help the aspirations of the Palestinians,
:21:57. > :22:02.not by supporting the Israelis with weapons, by sending hundreds of jets
:22:03. > :22:06.for the Israelis, by giving the Israelis the new products of the
:22:07. > :22:14.American military factories, to kill the Palestinians. To kill women and
:22:15. > :22:17.children. A final question for you. Hamas is looking quite isolated,
:22:18. > :22:21.they have lost the support of them Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the
:22:22. > :22:25.tunnels that you use for smuggling on the border between Gaza and Egypt
:22:26. > :22:29.have been closed, cutting off any source of finance for you, or a
:22:30. > :22:36.principal source of finance. You have to work under president Mahmood
:22:37. > :22:40.Abbas, it is the only game in town now for Hamas, domestically and also
:22:41. > :22:45.internationally. Well, this is the evaluation of some parties, but I
:22:46. > :22:52.want to say, it is the wrong evaluation. We knew more difficult
:22:53. > :22:58.and worst days before. We are not in our bad situation. I assure you. If
:22:59. > :23:02.we weren't sure, Howell could we explain what had happened in the
:23:03. > :23:07.last few days by the Palestinian militant against Israel. The
:23:08. > :23:12.relationship with Mahmood Abbas is not a game. We believe that the
:23:13. > :23:14.unity of the Palestinians is one of the fundamental and important
:23:15. > :23:20.weapons to face the Israeli occupation and aggressions. In
:23:21. > :23:46.Beirut, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
:23:47. > :23:52.Good morning. It was initially windy for eastern areas yesterday. It
:23:53. > :23:55.would be quite as windy today. But with cloud coming in from the east
:23:56. > :23:56.and