:00:09. > :00:15.Welcome to HARDTalk. I am Stephen Sackur.
:00:16. > :00:20.Today I am in the heart of the English countryside. Habitat which
:00:21. > :00:27.is rich in wildlife, but for how much longer? The impact of human
:00:28. > :00:31.beings here, as in so much of the world, is putting enormous pressure
:00:32. > :00:33.on natural ecosystems. My guest today is Chris Packham, one of
:00:34. > :00:42.Britain's best`known naturalist and campaigners for wildlife protection.
:00:43. > :00:44.Is it time to radically rethink man's relationship with the natural
:00:45. > :01:19.world? This is a beautiful place to say
:01:20. > :01:28.welcome to HARDTalk. Thank you. This is where I feel most comfortable.
:01:29. > :01:31.That is why I wanted to start here. It is in classic southern English
:01:32. > :01:39.woodland where you find your passion for wildlife. Yes, I was fortunate
:01:40. > :01:43.in that I lived in an age where parents allowed their kids to go
:01:44. > :01:48.freely in the woods. I used to come home, dump my school bag and be in
:01:49. > :01:52.this sort of environment. It was here that passion for wildlife was
:01:53. > :01:59.ignited by some of the creatures I shared my space with. I find beauty
:02:00. > :02:09.in individual species. And individual creatures? One of the
:02:10. > :02:13.things you have spoken of as a defining moment was when you found a
:02:14. > :02:16.very small kestrel, and you adopted it and took it home. You wanted to
:02:17. > :02:19.raise it yourself. But, in a way, that is a problematic story because
:02:20. > :02:25.you were trying to possess something which was truly wild. Looking back
:02:26. > :02:39.on it, do you think that instinct was wrong? No, not as a child, but
:02:40. > :02:43.it is not something I would do now. That relationship was at 14, at the
:02:44. > :02:48.point where, I think, that was leaving me. The relationship was
:02:49. > :02:51.intense, and it sealed a deep`rooted passion for, not only birds, but
:02:52. > :02:57.life. The kestrel died, I lost it. It was heartbreaking to say the
:02:58. > :03:01.least. Was it one of the most emotionally engaging moments of your
:03:02. > :03:07.life? It shaped my whole life. That was a defining moment. Not only the
:03:08. > :03:18.animal itself, but the social interactions that formed around me
:03:19. > :03:22.having it. It was a transitional point. Subsequent to that, I have
:03:23. > :03:26.not had that desire to hold things close to me. That is part of
:03:27. > :03:28.maturing as a naturalist. Then I got binoculars and could satisfy my
:03:29. > :03:33.curiosity by watching things, rather than by having to touch them. I
:03:34. > :03:50.struggle with that emotional outlook that other people have. I am a
:03:51. > :03:59.pragmatist and a scientist. As a consequence, I am dispassionate
:04:00. > :04:03.about what I see. If I see predation happening, I do not feel the need to
:04:04. > :04:05.intervene. I do not stop an animal killing another. That process is
:04:06. > :04:09.part of the greater beauty. The beauty is not in the animal, it is
:04:10. > :04:11.in this, the system that is functional and sustainable and
:04:12. > :04:14.dynamic, and only exists because of those harmonious relationships and
:04:15. > :04:20.interactions of the species. This is the greater beauty. It is not the
:04:21. > :04:35.buzzard, it is not a rabid, the damsel fly `` Rabbit. It is the
:04:36. > :04:37.ecology. I want to talk more about sustainability and the
:04:38. > :04:39.responsibilities you see that sit with us.
:04:40. > :04:42.Let us talk more about homosapiens' relations with the animal kingdom.
:04:43. > :04:49.We are member of the animal kingdom, it is not a separate thing. A good
:04:50. > :04:55.point. We are one of the great apes. You have made a very strong
:04:56. > :04:58.stand against different forms of hunting, and yet hunting is one of
:04:59. > :05:10.the most basic ways in which human beings have always related to other
:05:11. > :05:14.animals. Why are you so against it? I am against it if it is
:05:15. > :05:19.unsustainable. That is my point. I am not against hunting, shooting and
:05:20. > :05:30.fishing, if it is sustainable. That is where the conflict arises. As our
:05:31. > :05:37.own population has grown, and our desire to continue to hunt, in many
:05:38. > :05:42.it is no longer sustainable. `` in many aspects. I struggle a little
:05:43. > :05:46.with people who want to kill things for pleasure. I see a degree of
:05:47. > :05:51.psychopathy in that. You are shifting the ground. Fox`hunting,
:05:52. > :05:56.politically, for many years has been controversial. Now there are laws
:05:57. > :05:59.outlawing it. There is some debate in the current government about
:06:00. > :06:04.whether these laws should be reviewed. But nobody argues that
:06:05. > :06:12.fox`hunting led to the fox becoming endangered or close to extinction.
:06:13. > :06:17.It was all about pleasure. You began by saying if an animal wasn't
:06:18. > :06:25.threatened, you were not against it. I presumed you meant hunting for
:06:26. > :06:28.food, to eat it. Fox`hunting, while described as the unspeakable in
:06:29. > :06:33.pursuit of the inedible, that is a very good description. Killing for
:06:34. > :06:45.pleasure will always trouble me. I don't understand it. I have no
:06:46. > :06:49.problem with them shooting pheasants which are reared for that purpose,
:06:50. > :06:52.but when they shoot woodcock, which is in decline in the UK, but it
:06:53. > :06:56.continues to be shot because it is classed as a game bird, I see an
:06:57. > :06:59.issue there. Many species plummeting in number are protected, but this
:07:00. > :07:03.one seems to be exonerated because for many hundreds of years it has
:07:04. > :07:07.been shot. I would argue that those years are redundant. This is the
:07:08. > :07:09.pertinent point where we are controlling that environment. If
:07:10. > :07:20.there are no longer enough woodcock to shoot, we have to desist. But
:07:21. > :07:22.this gets to the point of your critics seeing you much more
:07:23. > :07:36.preoccupied with the rights of animals than the rights and
:07:37. > :07:38.well`being of humans. For example, the argument of those who support
:07:39. > :07:41.fox`hunting and grouse shooting and other forms of sport hunting is that
:07:42. > :07:44.those activities and the economic benefits they bring to local
:07:45. > :07:55.communities in rural areas are the absolute foundation of countryside
:07:56. > :08:02.communities. You threaten livelihoods in rural areas. I am a
:08:03. > :08:05.firm supporter of the need for us to live in a sustainable landscape,
:08:06. > :08:10.with a secure economic future for those who live there, including the
:08:11. > :08:12.shooting fraternity. As a consequence, I have nothing against
:08:13. > :08:29.responsible shooting which is sustainable. In grouse moors, you
:08:30. > :08:32.have begun a campaign against the shooting of the small bird, the
:08:33. > :08:35.grouse, in the uplands of North Yorkshire and Scotland. But it has
:08:36. > :08:47.been said that if you get your way, local communities will die. Grouse
:08:48. > :08:58.shooting as a type of shooting can be disastrous for the environment.
:08:59. > :09:09.They are kept at abnormally high numbers, which drove it to prosper.
:09:10. > :09:12.It has a negative aspect in terms of other species of birds, and the
:09:13. > :09:18.people who perpetrate it are intolerant of predators. One of the
:09:19. > :09:21.reasons we have only a handful of certain raptor species, notably hen
:09:22. > :09:24.harriers and golden eagle, is that they are persecuted by these people.
:09:25. > :09:27.Illegally and ruthlessly. If they were to sort that problem out, we
:09:28. > :09:31.would not be gunning for them. How far are you prepared to push these
:09:32. > :09:34.campaigns? This year you spent weeks in Malta, determined to try to stop
:09:35. > :09:45.the thousands of hunters who go there to shoot quail and
:09:46. > :09:49.turtledoves. It is a tradition they have had for many years. You got
:09:50. > :09:52.into a pretty serious confrontation with local hunters. At one point you
:09:53. > :09:59.said, if they shoot me, I don't care. How far are you prepared to
:10:00. > :10:07.push this? I pick my fights because I think I am right, not because I
:10:08. > :10:17.think I can win. I am not a bully, and I am not a coward. I think I am
:10:18. > :10:20.right to oppose these shootings. Those birds are not Maltese, or
:10:21. > :10:23.British, but 17 species of British birds, including the turtledove
:10:24. > :10:26.which has declined 90% since the 1970s, are still being shot on
:10:27. > :10:38.Malta, and I do not see that as being sustainable. However long it
:10:39. > :10:40.has been going on. But sometimes, the way you handle your campaigns,
:10:41. > :10:43.actually entrenches the enmity of the hunting community. You arguably
:10:44. > :10:46.make them more determined than ever to confront you and continue the
:10:47. > :10:54.practice. That is an unfortunate human response, the resistance to
:10:55. > :11:01.change. Unfortunately, we are all resistant, sometimes, to change. But
:11:02. > :11:13.we have to raise the debate and continue to create dialogue which
:11:14. > :11:16.allows us to make positive change. The problem with Malta is that in
:11:17. > :11:19.the past, when there were fewer people there, and a greater number
:11:20. > :11:23.of birds migrating, the practices they were partaking in, for food,
:11:24. > :11:26.were fine. But the population of these birds has been declining
:11:27. > :11:38.across Europe, and the hunters in Malta has increased. There were 80
:11:39. > :11:47.per square kilometre shooting, that is the highest density of anywhere
:11:48. > :11:51.on earth. It is not tenable any more, and it is illegal all over
:11:52. > :11:55.Europe, so why are Malta allowed to get away with it when we have seen
:11:56. > :12:06.that it is the wrong thing to do? Here is one thing that puzzles me
:12:07. > :12:09.about some of your campaigns. On Malta, you were very concerned about
:12:10. > :12:12.the turtledove population, which matters to you, and yet you have
:12:13. > :12:15.another side of your message to the world, which says we have got to
:12:16. > :12:18.stop being so obsessed with the saving of single species, single
:12:19. > :12:22.kinds of creature, we have to understand that the best thing we
:12:23. > :12:25.can do and where we must invest most of our effort is on the big picture
:12:26. > :12:28.stuff, saving the most valuable ecosystems in the world, whether it
:12:29. > :12:31.is the Amazon Rainforest or the Kalahari desert, whatever. Which is
:12:32. > :12:33.more important to you? Saving single species or having a much broader
:12:34. > :12:50.view of what wildlife protection should be about?
:12:51. > :12:53.broader view. Sometimes we choose individual species as flagships and
:12:54. > :12:58.generate icons so we can motivate people's passions.
:12:59. > :13:05.What about the panda? Yes. The panda is a bit of a legacy
:13:06. > :13:08.from the past. When conservation got going in the 1970s, we had
:13:09. > :13:15.campaigns, and it was about those individual species. Save the whale,
:13:16. > :13:25.the tiger, the panda. We have now changed our tune behind the scenes.
:13:26. > :13:28.We might wave the flag for those species but we are thinking about
:13:29. > :13:30.the broader environment we can look after, once we have motivated
:13:31. > :13:35.people. You do not fly the flag for the
:13:36. > :13:40.panda. You say it has gone down an evolutionary cul`de`sac. You have
:13:41. > :13:50.said, we should let them go and let them become extinct.
:13:51. > :13:53.Yes, I will continue to pick on the panda because it's an easy target
:13:54. > :13:57.for me in the hope that people will conduct an audit within the spending
:13:58. > :13:59.of conservation, that is why I chose that animal. I feel a
:14:00. > :14:02.disproportionate amount of money, time and effort is wasted upon the
:14:03. > :14:05.panda. We have to accept that extinction, under extreme pressure
:14:06. > :14:16.generated by humans, is part and parcel of humans. It's not always a
:14:17. > :14:19.bad thing. I have nothing against pandas, I would like to keep the
:14:20. > :14:23.panda, but I am asking whether we can afford to keep the panda at the
:14:24. > :14:38.expense of the bigger picture you mentioned. And I would argue that by
:14:39. > :14:41.raising that debate, it was a creative process. We have managed to
:14:42. > :14:52.get people to think carefully about spending the small pots of money
:14:53. > :14:56.that conservation has. The panda is in really deep trouble.
:14:57. > :15:02.But we also know that tigers are in trouble. Rhinos are in trouble. Are
:15:03. > :15:04.we to say to all of these wonderful creatures that their time on this
:15:05. > :15:08.planet is up? No, it is a case`by`case basis.
:15:09. > :15:12.There is still available habitat for rhino. There is still available
:15:13. > :15:16.habitat for tigers. There is not habitat for pandas in China. They
:15:17. > :15:18.are slow to reproduce, the populations are fragmented, we
:15:19. > :15:26.cannot get them to breed or reintroduce them into the wild.
:15:27. > :15:28.It raises a point about zoos. So many of the world's top zoos are
:15:29. > :15:32.somewhat obsessed with breeding pandas, partly because it brings
:15:33. > :15:36.in... It is not partly, it is wholly, it
:15:37. > :15:41.brings in a huge footfall and allows them to profit from that.
:15:42. > :15:45.Are you saying that breeding pandas is something that zoos and those who
:15:46. > :15:51.care about the natural world should stop doing? China is the only
:15:52. > :15:57.country to have bred pandas naturally. Every other country has
:15:58. > :16:00.used artificial insemination because they can't generate conditions where
:16:01. > :16:06.the pandas are happy enough to breed. The reason they persist with
:16:07. > :16:10.this is because pandas are a fabulous draw for people. The reason
:16:11. > :16:15.they need to breed them is simple. After a couple of years, the
:16:16. > :16:19.footfall falls off. They are the most expensive animal on earth to
:16:20. > :16:28.keep in captivity. It costs five times more to keep a panda than an
:16:29. > :16:33.elephant. That's the second most expensive. If people do not flock to
:16:34. > :16:39.see a cute little panda cub, that zoo is out of pocket. Drastically.
:16:40. > :16:49.Remember, they are paying the Chinese government many millions of
:16:50. > :16:53.pounds to rent those pandas. The zoos in the West have no choice but
:16:54. > :16:57.to try and breed them. It is an economic issue. Stephen, it is not a
:16:58. > :17:02.conservation issue. If a zoo in the West gets a panda, it will never go
:17:03. > :17:06.back into the wild. No panda had ever been successfully put back into
:17:07. > :17:14.the wilds of China, not least one that has been born in other parts of
:17:15. > :17:19.the world. That may apply to other species as
:17:20. > :17:22.well. I am just wondering that, as you talk about zoos with cynicism,
:17:23. > :17:24.whether you see there is any point at all?
:17:25. > :17:27.There is a tremendous point to zoos. Those pandas in the zoos are
:17:28. > :17:32.phenomenal ambassadors for endangered wildlife.
:17:33. > :17:34.Is that what zoos are, then? A performing piece of diplomacy on
:17:35. > :17:37.behalf of the natural world, which of course they do not represent in
:17:38. > :17:40.any real way at all? I think zoo animals should be used
:17:41. > :17:48.as ambassadors for their wild counterparts. They are there to
:17:49. > :17:59.engage people so those people develop a deep affinity to wild
:18:00. > :18:03.animals. And are educated to look after their wild counterparts. I
:18:04. > :18:06.remember going to a zoo when I was 11 and coming face`to`face with a
:18:07. > :18:10.tiger for the first time, and that image of that animal is as fresh in
:18:11. > :18:14.my mind as it was when I encountered it.
:18:15. > :18:21.And that means that you can justify that these animals are kept in small
:18:22. > :18:24.enclosures... No. In a way that, frankly, leaves them
:18:25. > :18:30.with a low quality of life. Of course, I cannot justify that. We
:18:31. > :18:33.should constantly strive to update the conditions, given the knowledge
:18:34. > :18:39.that we acquire. There are certain animals that should never be kept in
:18:40. > :18:42.captivity but we continue to do it. The one essential thing is that zoos
:18:43. > :18:52.must, must embrace their educational remit. If these animals are just
:18:53. > :19:00.used as a circus, as a gallery of life, then that is shameful and
:19:01. > :19:03.outdated. Dolphin exhibits, even if they are the best ones we see,
:19:04. > :19:12.dolphins are still leaping out of pools and jumping through hoops.
:19:13. > :19:17.What about the preoccupation in many parts of the world with keeping
:19:18. > :19:24.pets? You talk a lot about resources. I have some figures here.
:19:25. > :19:30.People in Britain spend ?15 billion a year on their household pets. You
:19:31. > :19:33.have talked about the lack of resources going into wildlife
:19:34. > :19:38.protection and conservation. Think what you could do with even a small
:19:39. > :19:42.chunk of that money. Do you think it is time to say to people around the
:19:43. > :19:49.world, think about what it costs to keep pets? Think about the natural
:19:50. > :19:52.world beyond your own household. Maybe it is time for people to be
:19:53. > :19:59.weaned off this keeping of pets. No, not at all. I keep dogs and I
:20:00. > :20:09.can tell you that we have co`evolved with dogs. We argue about when they
:20:10. > :20:12.were first domesticated from wolves and during that period of living
:20:13. > :20:18.with animals, every human society all over the world, we have
:20:19. > :20:22.co`evolved with them. `` with these animals. We are genetically
:20:23. > :20:31.predisposed to like or understand dogs. The dogs have co`evolved with
:20:32. > :20:35.us. That is all fine and dandy but you
:20:36. > :20:41.are sitting in a beautiful area with two dogs who seem to be very happy,
:20:42. > :20:44.wandering around. The fact is that people in urban environments keep
:20:45. > :20:53.dogs in small places, sometimes locked up all day. Is it not time to
:20:54. > :20:57.say that this is unacceptable? Where I am heading with this is that
:20:58. > :21:01.we have an affinity for this animal because we have lived with it for
:21:02. > :21:05.this amount of time and I think that one of the reasons it is beneficial
:21:06. > :21:07.to maintain that is that if we learn to live with animals and respect
:21:08. > :21:20.their lives, those attitudes towards other animal life will rub off. I am
:21:21. > :21:23.sure that a lot of people who opposed fox`hunting were motivated
:21:24. > :21:35.to care about foxes because, in an abstract way, they care about their
:21:36. > :21:38.dogs. They respect other life. I have watched you interact with
:21:39. > :21:43.your own dogs and you do seem to regard them as friends.
:21:44. > :21:49.They are, they are companions. They are dumb animals.
:21:50. > :21:59.They are far from dumb. Your animal seems to be confused.
:22:00. > :22:02.Not at all! They do not talk to me in our language but they communicate
:22:03. > :22:05.with me through their posture, their attitude, their voice. I mean, they
:22:06. > :22:12.have a repertoire of different barks which I can identify. I know what
:22:13. > :22:18.those barks mean. At a rudimentary level, you might consider, they
:22:19. > :22:24.communicate effectively with me. You get a more satisfactory relationship
:22:25. > :22:28.out of your dog than a fellow human? None of my dogs have lied to me or
:22:29. > :22:32.let me down. I have a different relationship with them. It is not as
:22:33. > :22:38.complex as a human, but I will tell you something. There was a lot more
:22:39. > :22:41.security there than there is with most human relationships, and I do
:22:42. > :22:45.not think that that is something I should be embarrassed about. The
:22:46. > :22:53.vast majority of dog owners in the UK probably feel the same way.
:22:54. > :22:56.Many environmentalists and conservationists on this programme
:22:57. > :23:10.strike me as having a bleak view of where this is going. Are you
:23:11. > :23:16.depressed? No, we're too intelligent... We do need a kick up
:23:17. > :23:18.the backside before we get organised. Unfortunately, we respond
:23:19. > :23:28.best to catastrophes. We need something to shock us before we act.
:23:29. > :23:31.Equally, we are moving towards an age where we will be able to elect
:23:32. > :23:34.decision`makers who are better informed to make decisions of an
:23:35. > :23:37.environmental nature and I equally think that we are moving towards an
:23:38. > :23:40.age where the economists and ecologists will have a better degree
:23:41. > :23:43.of parity, and when that happens, we will have the intelligence to shape
:23:44. > :23:51.our impact on the planet in a positive way, and we will continue
:23:52. > :23:55.to be here. Very sadly, in the interim period, we will lose some of
:23:56. > :24:16.our sexier species, so I am glad to be here campaigning. At least I have
:24:17. > :24:20.a rhino, a tiger and a panda to argue about. Chris Packham, we have
:24:21. > :24:25.to end there but thank you for being on HARDTalk.
:24:26. > :24:39.It is a pleasure, thank you for the invitation.