:00:00. > :00:07.lying. Now on BBC News, it's time for
:00:08. > :00:11.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Zainab
:00:12. > :00:16.Badawi. My guest today is the acclaimed Ghanaian writer Ama Ata
:00:17. > :00:19.Aidoo. A former education minister for a brief period under Jerry
:00:20. > :00:22.Rawlings in Ghana, she has done arguably more than any other writer
:00:23. > :00:26.to depict and celebrate the condition of women in Africa, in
:00:27. > :00:29.books such as The Dilemma of a Ghost and Changes. Ama Ata Aidoo is
:00:30. > :00:31.opposed to what she has described as a 'western perception that the
:00:32. > :00:45.African female is a downtrodden wretch'. But when you look around
:00:46. > :00:47.the African continent today, girls abducted in Nigeria, polygamy
:00:48. > :00:50.re`introduced in Kenya, child marriages and the prevalence of
:00:51. > :00:51.gender`based violence, how much is there to celebrate about being
:00:52. > :01:23.female in Africa? Ama Ata Aidoo, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:24. > :01:28.Thank you very much, Zainab. There are a lot of political issues and
:01:29. > :01:32.social affairs in your writings. How much do you see yourself as a writer
:01:33. > :01:35.with a mission? Well, now, in retrospect, I suppose I could
:01:36. > :01:41.describe myself as a writer with a mission. But I never was aware that
:01:42. > :01:52.I had a mission when I started to write, you see. It didn't work ` it
:01:53. > :01:56.doesn't work like that. I don't sit at my desk and say, now I've got to
:01:57. > :02:01.depict this, and depict that. No, I was rather young when I started
:02:02. > :02:04.writing, first of all. So I didn't even have any notion of where my
:02:05. > :02:14.writing would be read, or how, and stuff like that. So
:02:15. > :02:19.So it wasn't a conscious decision, but when did you become aware of the
:02:20. > :02:22.fact that you were really depicting African women in a certain way?
:02:23. > :02:26.Well, I mean, I suppose by the time I wrote my first piece, The Dilemma
:02:27. > :02:27.of a Ghost, I knew that I was writing about women, or writing
:02:28. > :02:41.women the way I knew them. Right? And then people sometimes
:02:42. > :02:51.question me, for instance, why are your women are so strong? And I say,
:02:52. > :02:54.that is the only woman I know. For instance, in 1970, you wrote a play,
:02:55. > :03:00.Anowa, about a woman who refuses an arranged marriage. She is very
:03:01. > :03:03.independent, hard`working, articulate and intelligent. Is that
:03:04. > :03:17.how you see African women? Yes. When they ` that is how I see African
:03:18. > :03:21.women. But how can you see African women like that? How do you see
:03:22. > :03:25.African women? I have to tell you that, for instance, you see African
:03:26. > :03:29.women are likely to be married off, at a young age. Yes. And we see
:03:30. > :03:32.female genital mutilation, prevalent in Africa. In quite a few African
:03:33. > :03:42.countries, maybe 20 or 30 African countries, as high as 90% in some
:03:43. > :03:45.cases. You see girls falling out of secondary education, more likely
:03:46. > :03:49.than boys, so isn't that the harsh reality of what is to be an African
:03:50. > :03:53.woman? Yes, but it is not how it is to be an African woman. It is what
:03:54. > :04:00.African women become, when they are put under such pressures as you are,
:04:01. > :04:07.you know, telling me. What I am saying is that the African woman is
:04:08. > :04:10.like a woman anywhere. Can you really say that when 85% of the
:04:11. > :04:19.women in Africa are working in vulnerable employment? They grow 80%
:04:20. > :04:22.of the continent's food, and yet in most cases they have no entitlement
:04:23. > :04:27.to that land that they toil on for hours ` backbreaking work. What
:04:28. > :04:30.happened to the notion of potential? My point is that when a woman has
:04:31. > :04:34.been socialised into, I don't want to use the word oppressed, but when
:04:35. > :04:37.a woman has been put under pressure, when she has been socialised into a
:04:38. > :04:41.certain space, and she is being that woman in that space, that doesn't
:04:42. > :04:57.mean that, you know, that is all there is to her.
:04:58. > :05:01.My problem with seeing African women as the quintessentially world's
:05:02. > :05:06.oppressed, and so on and so forth, is that it removes any agency from
:05:07. > :05:12.African women. As if we are just there, you know, to be oppressed. To
:05:13. > :05:15.make babies. And mind you, and if you don't mind me saying this, it is
:05:16. > :05:24.not all African societies that practice female genital mutilation.
:05:25. > :05:32.And Africa is not the only place where it is done. Sure, it happens
:05:33. > :05:35.in the Middle East as well. Yes. You have said you are very averse to the
:05:36. > :05:40.western perception that the African female... World perception. World
:05:41. > :05:50.perception of the African female is a downtrodden wretch. You are also
:05:51. > :05:52.seen as perhaps the most paramount African feminist. Do you describe
:05:53. > :05:56.yourself as a feminist? I am a feminist, yes. And you don't think
:05:57. > :05:58.that is a bit of a loaded term, associated with 1970s women's
:05:59. > :06:03.liberation, women burning their bras in western capitals? So what if they
:06:04. > :06:06.were burning their bras? I mean, the feminists, if you say that a
:06:07. > :06:10.feminist is just somebody, not necessarily a woman, who believes in
:06:11. > :06:12.the potential of women to get to the highest possible level of
:06:13. > :06:13.development ` you know, given the facilities a society makes
:06:14. > :06:29.available. Just as any man, and being a
:06:30. > :06:42.feminist is not necessarily being a woman feminist. Feminism is an
:06:43. > :06:46.ideology, like socialism. A man too can be a feminist. Do you believe
:06:47. > :06:49.then that feminism is feminism regardless of where you live in the
:06:50. > :06:56.world? Whether it is Norway or Nigeria? Or, do you believe that
:06:57. > :06:59.there is an African feminism more strongly rooted in the social
:07:00. > :07:05.conditions and culture of these people? I certainly do believe. You
:07:06. > :07:08.know, it is... What, that there is an African feminism? Well, I think
:07:09. > :07:15.there is an African feminism. It does not go around describing itself
:07:16. > :07:19.as an African feminism. What I am trying to say is that feminism is an
:07:20. > :07:32.ideology. And it depends how it is formulated, or how it is negotiated.
:07:33. > :07:45.Depends upon the details of the particular environment. So there
:07:46. > :07:49.isn't such a thing in your view as African feminism per se? No. Because
:07:50. > :07:52.a lot of women writers write about this particular issue. Let me give
:07:53. > :07:56.you one example so people know. Iman Hassan, a writer on Voices of Africa
:07:57. > :07:59.in South Africa, part of a stable of newspapers in South Africa, says the
:08:00. > :08:02.reality is that African feminists do not fit into the western context of
:08:03. > :08:04.feminism, as it is a middle`class white female phenomenon. Traditional
:08:05. > :08:09.western feminist rights emerge from individuals within the context of
:08:10. > :08:17.their societies. I don't ` I mean, I can see her point, but I don't have
:08:18. > :08:22.to agree with it. What is the point she is making? Well, the point she
:08:23. > :08:35.seems to be making is that you know, European, western feminists are so
:08:36. > :08:39.different. They may be white, they may be middle`class, and so on and
:08:40. > :08:42.so forth. But you see, if we relaxed a bit, and looked at what we mean
:08:43. > :08:51.when we say a feminist, then it doesn't really matter. What is a
:08:52. > :08:54.feminist, in your view? I have tried to define it here this afternoon.
:08:55. > :08:57.The feminist is anybody, and I mean anybody, who desires that women and
:08:58. > :09:00.girls would have what is available ` whatever is available in society, in
:09:01. > :09:15.the way of facilities, for their optimum development.
:09:16. > :09:21.So whatever men can do? For shelter, for education, for nourishment, yes.
:09:22. > :09:28.Are there differences between African and western women? Well,
:09:29. > :09:31.there are. There are differences. To begin with, we were colonised as
:09:32. > :09:43.Africa. We were first conquered, and then colonised. That also applies to
:09:44. > :09:49.African males. Yes. Will let me put this point to you. From celebrated
:09:50. > :09:52.writer and great admirer of yours Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. In fact,
:09:53. > :10:03.she said I occupy the space of a black African happy feminist, and
:10:04. > :10:07.she says she is inspired by you. But this is what she also says. I do
:10:08. > :10:10.find that women in the West have brought into the idea that somehow
:10:11. > :10:13.they are incomplete without a man. Women in Nigeria ` she is Nigerian `
:10:14. > :10:15.may think they are incomplete without children, but not
:10:16. > :10:24.necessarily without a man. Yes, well, I know what she is saying. And
:10:25. > :10:27.I would agree with her. But I would also point out to her that in
:10:28. > :10:30.today's Nigeria, in today's Ghana, given what the churches are pumping
:10:31. > :10:31.out and how society is being changed, negotiated, very soon we
:10:32. > :10:52.will leave that nice place. Young women who are about the same
:10:53. > :11:03.age of my daughter or younger think they are not complete without men. I
:11:04. > :11:05.see what she is saying. Yes, and it is also articulated by one black
:11:06. > :11:08.activist, Owen Alik Shanadah, an African scholar and film director
:11:09. > :11:11.who says feminism is part of warfare against the African family unit, and
:11:12. > :11:21.seeks to erode age`old human values while claiming to serve the
:11:22. > :11:25.interests of it. He supports women's rights, but I am just saying, this
:11:26. > :11:27.idea that you've got family units in Africa, developing the idea from
:11:28. > :11:34.earlier, that women value having children in Africa, and without the
:11:35. > :11:38.idealistical approach from the West. These ideas are fine, but I think
:11:39. > :11:42.you ought to get away from some of them, in the sense that the African
:11:43. > :11:52.` at the end of everything else, we are African women. Women, and human
:11:53. > :11:54.beings. What I am trying to say is that valuing family, having
:11:55. > :11:56.children, is not the same as assuming that all one's existence on
:11:57. > :12:14.us is to make babies. Cows do that too. You see what I am
:12:15. > :12:19.saying? I do see what you are saying. And when people say it that
:12:20. > :12:35.feminists are coming to ruin African life, what exactly do they mean? Let
:12:36. > :12:37.me give you an example then. In 1991 you published Changes. And you
:12:38. > :12:42.actually won the Commonwealth Writer's Prize. For Africa. For best
:12:43. > :12:45.book, for Africa, yes, in 1992, so you were celebrated. So you have a
:12:46. > :12:49.love story chronicling... I think it was '92 that Changes came out. And
:12:50. > :12:52.you won the prize. You have chronicled a period of the life of a
:12:53. > :12:55.career`centred African woman who divorces her first husband, marries
:12:56. > :12:58.into a polygamist union, and she is tussling with the experience of
:12:59. > :13:03.trying to live her western ideas of what a relationship should we, with
:13:04. > :13:06.her African husband. But wait, why do you say that she is trying to
:13:07. > :13:19.live a western idea of a relationship? Let me put it as a
:13:20. > :13:22.question to you, are there conflicts in values between western`educated
:13:23. > :13:24.African women going back to live in their societies? But listen, let's
:13:25. > :13:28.set this terminology, western ` can we talk about Africa, you know,
:13:29. > :13:41.without pushing us into the western tube all the time? I could take,
:13:42. > :13:50.rather, an adjective like modern, or contemporary. But western? First of
:13:51. > :13:54.all, like everybody everywhere, the life we are living, I thought we
:13:55. > :13:56.were in some kind of a global village. And you know, we are
:13:57. > :14:15.dealing with everybody, apart from... We were colonised, yes.
:14:16. > :14:18.So... What... Half of our lives, you know, or quite a big chunk of it, is
:14:19. > :14:27.influenced by the West. But that's not the sum total of who we are.
:14:28. > :14:33.Quake and exploring your character in this book.
:14:34. > :14:43.We know that polygamy is accented in African society. In Kenya, a man can
:14:44. > :14:50.marry as many women as he wants to. That is... It is ridiculous. It is
:14:51. > :14:54.absolutely painful. Because, you see, the difference between a woman
:14:55. > :14:56.like Essie in my book, Changes, and she is not unique in that sense,
:14:57. > :14:59.because there have been highly educated African women who have very
:15:00. > :15:13.clearly and willingly and readily entered into polygamous
:15:14. > :15:20.relationships. Is that right or wrong in your view? It is not for me
:15:21. > :15:26.to judge. It is for the individual. Because, as far as they are
:15:27. > :15:30.concerned, it is right. And if it is right for them, we have to allow it.
:15:31. > :15:35.(CROSSTALK). Western feminists would say they find polygamy something
:15:36. > :15:39.difficult to swallow. Especially when it is institutionalised. I am
:15:40. > :15:54.not asking them to swallow it. It goes on all over Africa. I'm just
:15:55. > :15:57.depicting it in the light of one African woman. This year, what many
:15:58. > :16:01.see as a retrograde step has taken place in Kenya. I agree with you.
:16:02. > :16:04.When we look at polygamy, we know perfectly well that the majority of
:16:05. > :16:07.women who are railroaded into it don't have what it takes for them to
:16:08. > :16:27.make independent choices. They don't have the education, the wherewithal
:16:28. > :16:30.in terms of independence... Your character in Changes was an educated
:16:31. > :16:49.woman entering into a polygamous union. For Essie, polygamy offered
:16:50. > :16:52.something fantastic. Because, as far as she is concerned... Isn't that
:16:53. > :17:02.women colluding in their own oppression? And I will tell you what
:17:03. > :17:05.a spokeswoman for the Federation of Women's Lawyers said, we are happy
:17:06. > :17:12.with the law, finally, because all marriages are treated equally. They
:17:13. > :17:16.said they weren't happy with the fact a man does not need permission
:17:17. > :17:25.to marry a wife, but they were happy because it makes them legal. Yes,
:17:26. > :17:30.you see, I disagree with her. Because, what happens in polygamous
:17:31. > :17:33.relationships is that, depending upon not the man's economic position
:17:34. > :17:43.in society, but the women's, it is oppressive and can never be excused.
:17:44. > :17:46.I didn't come out in Changes with guns blazing against polygamy
:17:47. > :17:49.because I thought it would be more interesting to let Essie go through
:17:50. > :18:08.her own paces and come to her own conclusions about what polygamy is.
:18:09. > :18:21.A man who can marry two wives can marry three. That is how she got
:18:22. > :18:25.this illusion. `` disillusioned. Then, the relationship... Broke
:18:26. > :18:29.down. Let me ask you this, no`one is going to tolerate the oppression of
:18:30. > :18:36.women. So, how is it best to counter the oppression of women? Legal
:18:37. > :18:39.rights are insufficient. How do you overcome social barriers? Educate
:18:40. > :18:52.women. Education, education, education. And I am not the first
:18:53. > :18:56.person to have said that. Give women, like men, give them the
:18:57. > :18:59.tools. They will live their own lives. They will negotiate their own
:19:00. > :19:08.position in society. Educate women. They will even make fewer children
:19:09. > :19:10.and make people happy. All of these people who are whining about
:19:11. > :19:27.population and African women making too many children, which is not
:19:28. > :19:30.true. That is the only solution. But how do you overcome patriarchal
:19:31. > :19:32.laws, women can't inherit property laws. Security of land and property
:19:33. > :19:52.comes from your mother's mother... That is the exception for the whole
:19:53. > :20:00.of Africa. Yes, but it is also valid. That is one good example you
:20:01. > :20:04.have given. But if you look at parliamentarians in Ghana, you have
:20:05. > :20:10.got 11% of MPs in Ghana who are women, that is pitiful. It is
:20:11. > :20:17.disastrous. But you see, I don't want to blame other people for our
:20:18. > :20:20.problems. What I'm trying to say is that although the basis of a
:20:21. > :20:32.society, the majority ethnic group, whatever, is naturally... ``
:20:33. > :20:36.matrilineal. OK. When the British came, did they come with their male
:20:37. > :20:40.culture? You know what I am trying to say? You bring in the British
:20:41. > :20:49.because your grandfather was killed by neo` colonialists. Yes. But
:20:50. > :20:52.nevertheless, there was a paradox because you were sent to a Wesley
:20:53. > :20:55.girl's high school for a Western education. Do you think you should
:20:56. > :21:07.have had a more Afrocentric approach to education? Today, all over
:21:08. > :21:11.Africa? Of course. And we don't see that always. Because, another one,
:21:12. > :21:15.all of those men who have led Africa for the last 500 years think they
:21:16. > :21:17.are the only ones who can save Africa. But, they are not giving
:21:18. > :21:26.Africans, the people, the right to build alternative structures. You
:21:27. > :21:31.need to indigenise, don't you? And, celebrate being African. Let me tell
:21:32. > :21:34.you, the late African Nobel Peace Prize laureate said, it would be
:21:35. > :21:39.good to recapture some of the positive aspects of our culture. And
:21:40. > :21:52.yet, Western educated elites, such as you yourself, you have spoken in
:21:53. > :21:55.the United States. I agree with... Is that happening? It is not
:21:56. > :22:01.happening, because the people... Listen, I was Minister for
:22:02. > :22:07.Education, right? In 1982, for 18 months. My point is that what we
:22:08. > :22:10.should be actually looking into is what happens to the ideas that would
:22:11. > :22:33.change Africa and the people who, you know, espouse, articulate such
:22:34. > :22:37.ideas. What happens to people. My point is that in Africa, maybe like
:22:38. > :22:40.in other places, it is not the people, always the people who want
:22:41. > :22:58.to do the changing who get near the power. OK. Briefly on this point, as
:22:59. > :23:01.you said, you were education minister in 1982. You resigned when
:23:02. > :23:11.you realised you could not make education freely accessible to all.
:23:12. > :23:14.It is still a challenge. Broadly speaking. Ghana is doing OK. Still,
:23:15. > :23:21.you find that secondary education is a big issue not only in Ghana but in
:23:22. > :23:24.other African countries. Do you think you should have stuck to
:23:25. > :23:31.politics rather than gone to writing? Would you have better
:23:32. > :23:39.served Ghana and Africa had you stuck with politics? You know, I am
:23:40. > :23:46.trying to work myself out of the guilt thing. So, my answer is, no. I
:23:47. > :23:49.think it was a good idea. It was so better move for me to get out of
:23:50. > :23:53.government and do my writing. But, of course, I am also human and every
:23:54. > :23:59.now and then I wonder whether I should not have stayed. Ama Ata
:24:00. > :24:01.Aidoo, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. You are most
:24:02. > :24:34.welcome. Hello there. Well, with
:24:35. > :24:37.high`pressure dominating the scene for much of this week, is looking
:24:38. > :24:41.settled and dry with plenty of sunshine. Risk of thunderstorms
:24:42. > :24:44.increasing as we head towards the latter part of the week. Monday was
:24:45. > :24:46.a fine day across much of the UK. Barely a shower or storm around. And
:24:47. > :24:47.it