:00:00. > :00:11.Home Secretary announces a judge`led inquiry into his death. Now on BBC
:00:12. > :00:14.News, it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen
:00:15. > :00:17.Sackur. A few months ago international attention was fixed on
:00:18. > :00:19.the remote forests of north`eastern Nigeria, believed to be where 200
:00:20. > :00:26.kidnapped schoolgirls were being held by Boko Haram militants. Well,
:00:27. > :00:29.the girls have now been missing for 100 days. Boko Haram's terror
:00:30. > :00:40.campaign continues, but the media focus has shifted elsewhere. My
:00:41. > :00:43.guest today is Obiageli Ezekwesili, a former Nigerian minister, and one
:00:44. > :00:46.of the leaders of the Bring Back Our Girls campaign. Has their country
:00:47. > :01:16.failed these girls and their families?
:01:17. > :01:23.Obiageli Ezekwesili, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much,
:01:24. > :01:28.Stephen. It is a grim milestone, isn't it? 100 days since more than
:01:29. > :01:34.2`and`1070 schoolgirls were abducted from Chibok, and we believe more
:01:35. > :01:46.than 200 are still missing. What is your overriding emotion right now?
:01:47. > :01:53.It is very mixed. On the one hand, they shared pain that does not even
:01:54. > :02:06.come close to what the parents feel. And then on the other hand,
:02:07. > :02:09.the optimism that comes from the persistence of the parents, as well
:02:10. > :02:15.as those that empathise with them, that should everything be done,
:02:16. > :02:25.these girls can still be rescued. And so, even though 100 days is on
:02:26. > :02:29.us, there is still that hope. Do you really, truly believe that if
:02:30. > :02:34.everything is done, these girls can be rescued? Because your former
:02:35. > :02:42.boss, he said just the other day that we have to accept that some of
:02:43. > :02:49.these girls will never return home. I don't want to think about that.
:02:50. > :02:54.The reason is, I absolutely believe in miracles. I actually think that
:02:55. > :03:03.there is something divine about these girls. The emphasis that has
:03:04. > :03:13.been given to their cause, has come as a result of something that I can
:03:14. > :03:17.divine. And I believe, that it is OK to be realistic. `` consider divine.
:03:18. > :03:23.And to say that there are possibilities that some of them may
:03:24. > :03:30.not come back. But I don't even want to look at that possibility. You
:03:31. > :03:36.know, Stephen, we had the members of the Bring Back Our Girls work on
:03:37. > :03:41.three scenarios. And the scenario that nobody wanted to sign on to
:03:42. > :03:48.work was the scenario of a possibility of lack of success in
:03:49. > :03:51.their rescue. Well you mentioned the Bring Back Our Girls campaign, of
:03:52. > :03:56.course, you are wearing their red lapel badge. You are one of the
:03:57. > :04:00.leaders of this campaign, one of those who created it and gave it
:04:01. > :04:02.such worldwide impetus. You have been very critical of President
:04:03. > :04:05.Goodluck Jonathan and his handling of this case from the very
:04:06. > :04:10.beginning. It is interesting, is it not, but right now, President
:04:11. > :04:15.Goodluck Jonathan has arranged a meeting with more than 150 people
:04:16. > :04:19.who represent the families of the Chibok girls, plus some members of
:04:20. > :04:25.the local community, all invited to meet him in Abuja. Does this, to
:04:26. > :04:32.you, represent a significant new approach from the government and the
:04:33. > :04:38.President? You know, earlier today, I tweeted on this meeting, and I
:04:39. > :04:45.indicated that this is an opportunity for President Jonathan
:04:46. > :04:51.to reach down to the deep recesses of the agonising pain that the
:04:52. > :04:57.parents and their entire community of Chibok have wallowed in, in the
:04:58. > :05:03.100 days since the abduction of the abductees. And the reason that I
:05:04. > :05:09.said that is that there has been a gulf between our leadership and
:05:10. > :05:19.these families, as well as the community. In the cause `` course of
:05:20. > :05:29.the very tragic incident of the abduction. Why? Why the Gulf ? You
:05:30. > :05:37.know, it is something very strange. When I first heard about the
:05:38. > :05:43.abduction, it was the day of the bombing on the 14th of April.
:05:44. > :05:47.Apparently, by about midnight of the same day, there had been the
:05:48. > :06:02.abduction. The day of the bomb blast, I had been so frustrated ly
:06:03. > :06:06.angry that we just seemed to hear about the bomb blasts, and we were
:06:07. > :06:13.almost becoming a nation of people that they didn't feel anything,
:06:14. > :06:20.every time the bomb went off. And statistically, numbers were given,
:06:21. > :06:25.of victims. So when the next day, we then had the additional news that
:06:26. > :06:35.some girls have been abducted from a school, it added to my frustration.
:06:36. > :06:39.But then, when I tweeted at Nigerian parliament saying is it true? What
:06:40. > :06:43.is being done to make sure that the girls are being rescued? It took
:06:44. > :06:48.three days before there was word from the Nigerian government. Well,
:06:49. > :06:52.if I may just interrupts row second, I don't think anybody doubts that
:06:53. > :07:00.the perception was the government was slow to respond `` interrupt for
:07:01. > :07:04.a second. It then, if you look `` put it in context, the context of
:07:05. > :07:06.the mass killings which have seen more than 2000 civilians killed by
:07:07. > :07:11.Boko Haram in the first month of this year, the fact that swathes of
:07:12. > :07:14.territory are in the control of these Jihadi militants across
:07:15. > :07:19.north`eastern Nigeria, then it raises the question, what is the
:07:20. > :07:23.government actually capable of doing? You say they must do more, if
:07:24. > :07:28.everything is done, these girls can be returned. But the fact, the
:07:29. > :07:38.brutal fact, appears to be that the forces cannot, are not able, to
:07:39. > :07:40.mount a rescue operation. So, if we stretched your very interesting
:07:41. > :07:44.perspective further, you would be saying we should give up completely
:07:45. > :07:51.on our governments, and give up on our military. I do believe so. I
:07:52. > :07:54.believe in the capital state. I believe in the function of
:07:55. > :08:00.government `` I don't believe so. As the two are served apparatus. I
:08:01. > :08:08.believe ineffective governance. `` the coercive apparatus. As far as I
:08:09. > :08:12.can see, that we have challenges with ensuring the security of
:08:13. > :08:18.Nigeria, because of the sheer weight of the attacks that the jihad is
:08:19. > :08:24.have launched against our country, should not in any way lead to our
:08:25. > :08:29.giving up, and saying it simply cannot be done. I don't believe in
:08:30. > :08:33.that school of thought. Well you may not believe it, but again, to quote
:08:34. > :08:37.your former boss Tom the former president, he says the military that
:08:38. > :08:41.we have is not equipped to fight the sort of terrorist who abduct
:08:42. > :08:44.children and detonate suicide bombs, they have been trained in
:08:45. > :08:50.conventional warfare. We have seen many analysts say that frankly the
:08:51. > :08:53.militants are much more capable than the on the ground soldiers who are
:08:54. > :08:57.being sent to try and eradicate them. And every problem has a
:08:58. > :09:06.solution. And part of what I believe is that we do need to look at our
:09:07. > :09:12.counter`insurgency strategy. I don't think that we planned for this, so
:09:13. > :09:17.of course, we are not responding as effectively as should be. But my
:09:18. > :09:21.sense is that taking full ownership of the problem, and that takes me
:09:22. > :09:30.back to the question you asked about the Gulf. Now part of what became
:09:31. > :09:33.very clear over the days of the abduction was that it was trapped in
:09:34. > :09:40.a lot of suspicion and doubt, and so, there was so much that was being
:09:41. > :09:45.questioned as to whether indeed girls were abducted. Now for me as a
:09:46. > :09:52.mother, I wasn't thinking whether girls were abducted, as far as I was
:09:53. > :09:56.hearing, some girls went to school, to take their exams, and their
:09:57. > :10:01.parents say they cannot find them. Wherever those girls are, it was
:10:02. > :10:07.important for our society to respond decisively in identifying their
:10:08. > :10:12.location and bringing them back. Well will get back to the
:10:13. > :10:15.practicalities of the government's Security response, but I just want
:10:16. > :10:18.to focus a little bit on the nature of your campaign. Again, the Bring
:10:19. > :10:21.Back Our Girls campaign has had massive worldwide publicity, you
:10:22. > :10:24.have the support of the most prominent sorts of individuals
:10:25. > :10:27.across the world, including first Lady Michelle Obama, Angelina Jolie,
:10:28. > :10:31.and a whole bunch of other people right around the world. But the
:10:32. > :10:36.problem is, if you boil down a campaign to just those four words,
:10:37. > :10:39.Bring Back Our Girls, it makes it seem extraordinarily simple, in a
:10:40. > :10:44.way. But as one Nigerian novelist said, it was like lighting candles
:10:45. > :10:51.to cure cancer. You know, what is your campaign actually achieved? I
:10:52. > :10:55.think that the first important thing that it needed to achieve was to
:10:56. > :11:04.call attention to the fact that indeed, there were 219 girls, as now
:11:05. > :11:11.established either presidential fact`finding committee, that are
:11:12. > :11:19.missing. That needed to be on everybody's table. 219 human beings
:11:20. > :11:22.had been taken away from their school environment. We needed
:11:23. > :11:27.everyone to acknowledge that. We needed particularly for our
:11:28. > :11:33.government to acknowledge that, and then, we needed to create enough
:11:34. > :11:37.awareness that would lead to compelling action for their rescue.
:11:38. > :11:40.Why was that necessary? It was necessary because there had been
:11:41. > :11:50.other incidents that happened. And then, everyone moved on. Suddenly,
:11:51. > :11:57.the scale of the hideous, we could act of the Jihadi is completely went
:11:58. > :12:06.overboard. We were not going to sit around and just, in muted voices,
:12:07. > :12:10.comfort the parents who were going to be going through the agony. So we
:12:11. > :12:14.needed that action to be taken. But you, if I may say so, took a
:12:15. > :12:17.dangerous course. You decided to become openly political about your
:12:18. > :12:21.campaign. You talk about raising awareness, but in the words of the
:12:22. > :12:25.President himself, who was furious, I think, after a meeting was
:12:26. > :12:31.arranged with a limited number of family members, who then snubbed
:12:32. > :12:34.him. You set the Bring Back Our Girls campaign has been guilty of
:12:35. > :12:36.psychological terrorism, of playing politics with the situation, and
:12:37. > :12:39.with the grief apparent that the girls. Are actually refuse to
:12:40. > :12:42.imagine that our President would speak on such language. The reason
:12:43. > :12:48.is simple. That is not the language of our President. We have never been
:12:49. > :12:54.political about this campaign, for vulnerable girls. The people that
:12:55. > :12:58.you see it that are part of the Bring Back Our Girls are people who
:12:59. > :13:04.are totally modest, who grieved at the fact that for many days, the
:13:05. > :13:12.fact that these girls had been abducted, refused to be an issue of
:13:13. > :13:14.priority. And for us, everything about politicising the campaign
:13:15. > :13:33.sounds like some strange language. I do read your Twitter, you have
:13:34. > :13:37.gone on the attack and accused the government of employing a PR firm,
:13:38. > :13:46.you called it evil, said they were sneering innocents it is terrorists,
:13:47. > :13:50.you have decided to play hardball, with a government that says it is
:13:51. > :13:58.doing everything in its power to bring them home. The right question
:13:59. > :14:02.would perhaps be why is it that this response has been from Bring Back
:14:03. > :14:11.Our Girls. It has been a response of utter shock, that which concerns the
:14:12. > :14:15.souls of innocent people. A narrative was being given to it as
:14:16. > :14:21.though there was a conversation beyond the human beings. What
:14:22. > :14:26.brought out women who predominantly make up the Bring Back Our Girls
:14:27. > :14:31.campaign, wasn't anything about politics, it was that sense of the
:14:32. > :14:34.bond of shared humanity. Many of these women were women who settled
:14:35. > :14:40.themselves, I have kept quiet for too long, while things like this
:14:41. > :14:43.happened in the past. The only issue is whether the women themselves, and
:14:44. > :14:50.God knows everyone around the world can deeply sympathise with what
:14:51. > :14:53.these mothers are going through, the issue is whether the suffering they
:14:54. > :14:58.are going through, the plight they find themselves in, is in anyway
:14:59. > :15:03.being manipulated political ends. I am quoting government officials. The
:15:04. > :15:10.minister for information claims 90% of the Bring Back Our Girls activist
:15:11. > :15:14.and campaigners are actually members of the APC opposition movement, is
:15:15. > :15:22.that true? I think our information minister is somebody who is good
:15:23. > :15:28.with words, but I have always worked on the basis of analytical evidence.
:15:29. > :15:30.When he presents me with that analytical evidence, that would be a
:15:31. > :15:38.basis to speak to that, but people who come to the Bring Back Our Girls
:15:39. > :15:44.campaign on a daily basis are not talking about politics. It is not a
:15:45. > :15:48.conversation, these are people who are completely are connected to the
:15:49. > :15:52.fact that we cannot be a society that keeps moving on every time
:15:53. > :15:56.there is tragedy. We have found a way to become so resilient that we
:15:57. > :16:02.will move on. That has destroyed about social capital, and when
:16:03. > :16:08.people, when you quote what is said about politics, I talked to my
:16:09. > :16:13.husband and said, what is this politics talk that comes to the
:16:14. > :16:20.issue of vulnerable girls endangered in the den of terrorists? I said, I
:16:21. > :16:23.don't understand it. A guess what it says is that there is something
:16:24. > :16:29.poisonous at the moment about the atmosphere in Nigerian public life.
:16:30. > :16:34.There are much more important things to talk about, but again, the chief
:16:35. > :16:38.spokesman for the President, who was on this programme not long ago, has
:16:39. > :16:42.said of you that you represent an elite who are seeking to run with
:16:43. > :16:49.the issue of the missing girls, and this is his phrase for personal
:16:50. > :16:53.aggrandising. He is implying that you see a political opportunity,
:16:54. > :16:56.that you may be seeking even to further your ambitions as an
:16:57. > :17:03.opposition politician. Be clear with me, is that in any way part of your
:17:04. > :17:12.agenda? You know what, I have never been a politician. You have been a
:17:13. > :17:15.minister... That I have not been a minister in a Westminster type
:17:16. > :17:20.government where I have to stand for elections in order to be a minister.
:17:21. > :17:26.It is a presidential system we practice. I went into government to
:17:27. > :17:30.offer my skill set. Each time some of these people talk about politics,
:17:31. > :17:37.the people who have known me, they just laugh. Me and politics don't go
:17:38. > :17:40.together. I am totally not the person that they want to
:17:41. > :17:45.characterise. So, you have no intention of entering politics? I
:17:46. > :17:52.have never been in politics. I work for the President. In fact, I think
:17:53. > :17:56.the President must be laughing his head off every time he hears my
:17:57. > :18:00.characterisation as a politician. We will take that as a clear indication
:18:01. > :18:06.that you have no personal political ambition. Let's get back to the most
:18:07. > :18:10.important thing, which is how, 100 days on from the abduction, to think
:18:11. > :18:19.about getting these girls back to their families. How, in your view,
:18:20. > :18:22.can it be done? I believe, and had said this consistently, that the
:18:23. > :18:28.government has the best set of information and expertise, and the
:18:29. > :18:33.kind of knowledge base that would enable it to make the most efficient
:18:34. > :18:38.decision. You have no faith in the government, you have made that
:18:39. > :18:45.clear... I'm not sure that you are right to say I have no faith in the
:18:46. > :18:49.government. The main reason I keep saying this to the government is
:18:50. > :18:52.because I happen to be one person who believes in the capability of
:18:53. > :19:00.our government to do what it needs to do. Primarily the security and
:19:01. > :19:09.safety of the people of Nigeria. There is either a military solution,
:19:10. > :19:13.sending people into forcibly getting the girls out, or you do it through
:19:14. > :19:19.negotiation and dialogue. Which routes do you think the government
:19:20. > :19:25.should be going down? I believe that the government has the best set of
:19:26. > :19:30.information... You have said that... I have heard the government
:19:31. > :19:37.say, if we have a military solution, we would endanger, we
:19:38. > :19:41.could endanger the girls. I have also heard them say there is no
:19:42. > :19:46.negotiation going on. So the reason we continue to say, ring back our
:19:47. > :19:53.girls, is that we worry that if all options are dismissed, what then is
:19:54. > :20:00.the solution? We don't have very much time. The government spokesman
:20:01. > :20:04.told me categorically that there were no direct negotiations between
:20:05. > :20:09.his government and Boko Haram. Do you think there should be? I believe
:20:10. > :20:17.there needs to be the window to begin a dialogue. Where that leads
:20:18. > :20:23.to we may not know, but we cannot completely dismiss every option.
:20:24. > :20:27.What does that leave us with? It leaves us with a no action
:20:28. > :20:32.situation. Is that really what we want for 219 girls? It is a totally
:20:33. > :20:37.different statement. Would you be prepared to trade Boko Haram
:20:38. > :20:43.prisoners for these girls? I would not be prepared to say that kind of
:20:44. > :20:52.an outright trade. I would be prepared to see an engagement that
:20:53. > :20:58.is a multiple of options. I am clearly adamant that the expertise
:20:59. > :21:03.for combining the instruments would very much be best determined by
:21:04. > :21:08.government. And the many global supporters that we have. You are
:21:09. > :21:11.being a bit hazy on what that means. There is one other specific
:21:12. > :21:16.question. There is the option of sending in more troops, a military
:21:17. > :21:21.crack down, and taking on Boko Haram in the forest directly, hoping that
:21:22. > :21:24.would lead to the freedom of the girls. You think there is a military
:21:25. > :21:30.solution to this? I think there could be a combination of solutions,
:21:31. > :21:37.and that his exact when my point. I am saying, in this situation the one
:21:38. > :21:41.with the best information is best suited for determining the ultimate
:21:42. > :21:50.combination. What I don't want is a state of information that conveys
:21:51. > :21:57.that no action is being taken. Every time you hear from a spokesperson,
:21:58. > :22:02.dismissing a particular option, then another option, then dismissing any
:22:03. > :22:09.other option, you are saying to yourself, what is the evidence of
:22:10. > :22:15.options? It is inflammatory, in the end, what you are saying. I think
:22:16. > :22:18.you are trying to be as polite as you can, but you are suggesting that
:22:19. > :22:23.the government of Goodluck Jonathan is fundamentally failing these girls
:22:24. > :22:26.and their families, yes? I think in the first few days of their
:22:27. > :22:31.abduction and I felt absolutely that way, because there was no
:22:32. > :22:36.acknowledgement. You still feel that way today? I don't completely feel
:22:37. > :22:42.that way today. I feel that there is a need to avoid any form of
:22:43. > :22:48.inertia. If you should say to yourself, reasonable human beings
:22:49. > :22:54.that we are, why do we continue to say, we compel that action be taken,
:22:55. > :22:59.it is because there is a social capital issue going on. I think that
:23:00. > :23:06.in many ways the appearance, the community, the people who share the
:23:07. > :23:12.pain of these families, are simply saying, let there be evidence of
:23:13. > :23:21.action being taken. A final thought, a great Nigerian writer who was on
:23:22. > :23:25.this show recently said, these are moments when I feel Nigeria is a
:23:26. > :23:31.failed state. As someone at the very top of Nigerian public life today,
:23:32. > :23:40.do you feel that Nigeria is a failed is a? Nigeria is not a failed state,
:23:41. > :23:45.but Nigeria has a problem of failed institutions. I think some of our
:23:46. > :23:53.institutions have not operated at their best, and this is the result
:23:54. > :24:01.of poor governance of institutions, and for me, part of the reason it is
:24:02. > :24:07.important to understand the advocacy for these girls, is that it brings
:24:08. > :24:14.the issue of demand for good governments of institutions ``
:24:15. > :24:19.governance. That the standards of governance have to be higher than
:24:20. > :24:26.used to be the case. Obiageli Ezekwesili, we have here and there,
:24:27. > :24:48.but thank you for being on HARDtalk. `` we have two .
:24:49. > :24:54.Tuesday was a scorcher across the country, with plenty of sunshine.
:24:55. > :25:03.For parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland, the warmest day of the
:25:04. > :25:07.year so far. 20 degrees in Lerwick. We saw our top temperature of 30
:25:08. > :25:08.degrees on the South Coast. We