:00:00. > :00:11.territories will begin competing in the 11 day event. Now on BBC News,
:00:12. > :00:14.it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
:00:15. > :00:17.Israel says its current campaign in Gaza is in response to rocket
:00:18. > :00:22.strikes from Hamas militants, and is aimed at destroying illicit tunnels
:00:23. > :00:24.Hamas uses to smuggle arms. In more than two weeks of conflict around
:00:25. > :00:31.600 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have been killed and nearly 4,000
:00:32. > :00:35.wounded. The UN Human Rights Commissioner says Israel may have
:00:36. > :00:42.committed war crimes. About 30 Israelis have died, nearly all of
:00:43. > :00:45.them soldiers. My guest today is Danny Danon, a member of the Israeli
:00:46. > :00:47.Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud Party. He was dismissed as
:00:48. > :00:50.Deputy Defence Minister earlier this month for accusing the Prime
:00:51. > :00:56.Minister of being too weak in his Gaza campaign. How does he justify
:00:57. > :01:34.the high Palestinian death toll? Danny Danon, in Jerusalem, welcome
:01:35. > :01:37.to HARDtalk. Do you believe that an unacceptably high number of
:01:38. > :01:43.Palestinian civilians have died in this current conflict? I thank you
:01:44. > :01:48.for having me today on your show. Yes, we see the numbers, we see the
:01:49. > :01:53.pictures, and we regret it. Even the loss of one child, one civilian, it
:01:54. > :01:57.is a pity, and we do regret it. But we have to blame Hamas for that. We
:01:58. > :02:00.have to blame Hamas with actually using the Palestinians as human
:02:01. > :02:06.shields. Using them in order to protect them. And Hamas state their
:02:07. > :02:09.fighters are going to fight us, why are they not fighting? Why are they
:02:10. > :02:16.hiding in schools? Why are they hiding in hospitals? Why are they
:02:17. > :02:21.not coming to fight with us, and they are using the civilians? It is
:02:22. > :02:24.a pity. Do you accept that Israel is attracting a great deal of criticism
:02:25. > :02:26.in the international community for the high number of Palestinian
:02:27. > :02:33.civilian deaths? Israel is attracting criticism is. Not just
:02:34. > :02:38.Hamas, but your country as well. We are in the middle of a military
:02:39. > :02:42.operation. We are not in a position now to assess who is supporting us,
:02:43. > :02:45.who is not supporting us. We know it is not easy to fight inside civilian
:02:46. > :02:52.populations. It is very hard for us. We do the best to avoid casualties.
:02:53. > :02:55.And unlike Hamas, who is using the civilians to hide, and is targeting
:02:56. > :03:00.the civilians in Israel, we do exactly the opposite. We do our
:03:01. > :03:05.best, we even colder civilians and asked them to deploy, to move out
:03:06. > :03:08.from the neighbourhoods, and is not to allow Hamas. But I know it is
:03:09. > :03:12.very hard for them. You cannot lay in the civilians, because Hamas is
:03:13. > :03:16.threatening them, is using them. Yes, we are worried about what our
:03:17. > :03:20.friends in other countries think. But in a time of war, in the time of
:03:21. > :03:24.conflict, we have to do everything necessary to protect ourselves. The
:03:25. > :03:27.United Nations Human Rights Commissioner has said in an
:03:28. > :03:33.emergency session of the UN human rights commission on Wednesday that
:03:34. > :03:38.the killings of the children, she is talking about in particular, let me
:03:39. > :03:41.just remind you that around 147 children under the age of 18,
:03:42. > :03:45.Palestinians have been killed. She said they killings raise concerns
:03:46. > :03:52.about respect for the principles of distinction, proportionality, and
:03:53. > :03:56.precautions in attack. Let's just take this at first, one of these
:03:57. > :04:03.points. Porsche and Audi. Do you believe that Israel's response to
:04:04. > :04:07.the campaign by Hamas has been a proportional one? ``
:04:08. > :04:10.proportionality. Absolutely. When you look at proportion, you ask
:04:11. > :04:14.yourself, when you have millions of Israelis running into shelters,
:04:15. > :04:18.hundreds of missiles. And look at myself. When my daughters, for the
:04:19. > :04:23.last two week, have to wake up in the middle of the night in front of
:04:24. > :04:25.a shelter every night. This is not a way to live. The only thing we ask
:04:26. > :04:29.is to live peacefully in Israel. That is not much. And we are
:04:30. > :04:34.defending ourselves. OK, I'll just reiterate my question to you, Danny
:04:35. > :04:40.Danon. It Israel's response are proportionate one? Around 650
:04:41. > :04:44.Palestinians have been killed, 74% of them, according to the United
:04:45. > :04:50.Nations, are civilians. 147 children. Two disabled women. I am
:04:51. > :04:56.just give you some examples here. And, regrettably, on the Israeli
:04:57. > :05:03.side, around 30, a handful of them civilians. Does that sound to you
:05:04. > :05:06.like a proportionate response? I regret the loss of anyone. But if
:05:07. > :05:11.you look at numbers, you can go back to World War II, when the UK
:05:12. > :05:16.targeted civilian populations in Germany. More than 25 people died in
:05:17. > :05:20.Dresden, when you are in a conflict, you do whatever you need
:05:21. > :05:25.to protect your people. And we're doing it now. The order that we give
:05:26. > :05:28.to our soldiers, to our troops, do not hurt the civilians. Even if it
:05:29. > :05:32.means that you cannot catch the terrorists. They are paying a heavy
:05:33. > :05:35.price. When you look at the numbers. When you look at the numbers, we
:05:36. > :05:40.broader history, but let's just focus on what's going on in the Gaza
:05:41. > :05:44.campaign now. Simple question, I'd appreciate a simple answer, sir. Do
:05:45. > :05:49.you think Israel's response is a proportionate one? I think it is the
:05:50. > :05:54.appropriate response. Because we are defending ourselves. I wonder what
:05:55. > :06:00.would be the reaction of the UK army, if you had Al Qaeda attack in
:06:01. > :06:04.East London. If you were being attacked, your house, what would be
:06:05. > :06:07.the response of the US? Of the EU? When you are under attack, you
:06:08. > :06:13.protect yourself. It is self defence. That is what we are doing.
:06:14. > :06:16.We did not choose to fight. We do not want to fight. We have no other
:06:17. > :06:20.choice, because Hamas is the one who is actually hurting the civilians in
:06:21. > :06:25.Israel, and we are protecting them. Another point that was made was this
:06:26. > :06:30.point of distinction. Identifying who is a militant and who is not, by
:06:31. > :06:33.the UN human rights commission. Her spokesperson, Rupert Colvile, has
:06:34. > :06:39.spoken about one particular incident on July the 16th, when kids playing
:06:40. > :06:43.on the beach were struck not just once but twice, the set. There was
:06:44. > :06:48.an air strike. When the survivors started running, they were struck
:06:49. > :06:52.again. This time, we believe, in the water. Israel's argument is that
:06:53. > :06:57.there was a military target nearby. But that is too easy. The numbers
:06:58. > :07:02.speak for themselves. How can you justify that? I will not go inside a
:07:03. > :07:07.particular incident. But I tell you here and now. We regret it. We are
:07:08. > :07:12.sorry about it. But Hamas is killing civilians, they are celebrating.
:07:13. > :07:14.This is the difference. When we have civilians `` when we hurt
:07:15. > :07:20.civilians, we apologise. It is not our goal. But with Hamas... I was
:07:21. > :07:25.making a different point, and I appreciate what you are saying. And
:07:26. > :07:29.your distinction is that Hamas deliberately target civilians. I
:07:30. > :07:35.have not made that point to you. Hamas is also celebrating went
:07:36. > :07:39.Israelis... We do not. And we do take responsibility. I was making a
:07:40. > :07:43.different point though. Which was, how does the Israeli Defence
:07:44. > :07:48.Forces, the IDF, identify civilians from militants? Because I tell you,
:07:49. > :07:52.in this particular case, one journalist, William booth from the
:07:53. > :07:56.Washington Post, was amongst several foreign journalists at the hotel
:07:57. > :08:01.nearby. He said these boys were scrawny fishermen's kids, whom we
:08:02. > :08:07.saw every day running around on the beach, playing in the waves. They
:08:08. > :08:13.were aged between seven and 11. Your deputy Defence Minister until a few
:08:14. > :08:19.days ago. How can the IDF get it so wrong that kids under the age of 11
:08:20. > :08:25.could be mistaken for militants? When you are in a war, things like
:08:26. > :08:29.that happen. We do not intend to do it. Look at the numbers of the US.
:08:30. > :08:33.In the last five years, the US targeted terrorists in Yemen and
:08:34. > :08:38.Afghanistan. 2400 people were killed by drones only. You know how many
:08:39. > :08:42.civilians were among them? When you have a terrorist hiding behind
:08:43. > :08:48.kids, behind schools, hospitals, it happens. You should blame the
:08:49. > :08:51.terrorist for using the kids and civilian population. Not the ones
:08:52. > :08:56.who are fighting against the terrorists. OK, can I say that on
:08:57. > :09:03.this particular issue, Israel saying that Hamas uses civilian structures,
:09:04. > :09:08.hospitals, schools, and also uses humans as civilians as human
:09:09. > :09:13.shields, this is what one commentator has said, a highly
:09:14. > :09:19.respected Palestinian member of the PLO. She said on the 22nd of July,
:09:20. > :09:23.on CNN, in response to your claim, this is just cruel and heartless
:09:24. > :09:29.propaganda. It is a spin that adds insult to injury, and is
:09:30. > :09:32.intolerable, because it is a habitual pattern of Israeli
:09:33. > :09:38.discourse. Blame the victims, blame them for losing their own lives. You
:09:39. > :09:42.know, she can say whatever she wants. But the fact that she hasn't
:09:43. > :09:47.been to Gaza for the last nine years, do you know why? Because if
:09:48. > :09:53.she will go to Gaza, she would be shocked by the Hamas. The last time
:09:54. > :10:01.the Hamas and the Fatah met, the Hamas... So we know with whom we are
:10:02. > :10:06.dealing, with Hamas. Even the people elsewhere in the Senate. They know
:10:07. > :10:10.that if they come to Gaza, they may not get out. Hamas is a terrorist
:10:11. > :10:14.organisation, and it is very hard to deal with a terrorist organisation
:10:15. > :10:17.which doesn't care about what will happen to the civilian copulation.
:10:18. > :10:20.There, you've made that point. I appreciate that, Danny Danon. But on
:10:21. > :10:25.this question of Hamas using human shields, OK, you have rebutted what
:10:26. > :10:30.the journalist said by saying she lives on the West Bank and hasn't
:10:31. > :10:35.been to Gaza. Another commentator, who founded the disabled home 24
:10:36. > :10:39.years ago that was struck, said there was no one from Islamic jihad
:10:40. > :10:46.or Hamas living there. We are not involved in politics. I told you
:10:47. > :10:50.before. And I think we can agree about it. When you have terrorists
:10:51. > :10:55.hiding behind civilians, civilians will be hurt. It will be like that
:10:56. > :10:59.also in the future unfortunately. We will not be able to uproot Hamas,
:11:00. > :11:02.then we will continue to use civilians. We will continue to put
:11:03. > :11:08.kids on the frontline. You know what is happening now in Gaza. It became
:11:09. > :11:12.the command centre of Hamas. This is a war crime. They are using
:11:13. > :11:17.ambulances to move soldiers from a place to another place. They don't
:11:18. > :11:21.care about the law, they don't care about it. And we had to fight these
:11:22. > :11:26.people. It is not easy for us, but we are committed to do it. OK, I've
:11:27. > :11:28.been quoting the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner to. Cachia
:11:29. > :11:31.said on several occasions and reiterated again in her latest
:11:32. > :11:38.comments that Hamas firing rockets into Israel, targeting civilians,
:11:39. > :11:41.could constitute a war crime. She has said that. But I am now asking
:11:42. > :11:44.you to look at what the Israeli defence force, the Israeli
:11:45. > :11:47.appreciate that what you have said appreciate that what you have said
:11:48. > :11:50.about Hamas, you have been repeating. But I just want to
:11:51. > :11:53.continue on this point that you have made that you don't target
:11:54. > :11:58.civilians. And I'm not saying that you are, but you have said that you
:11:59. > :12:05.give civilians are warning that they should flee an area that you are
:12:06. > :12:09.about to hit. But you know? This is what a spokesman for the United
:12:10. > :12:12.Nations office for humanitarian assistance told a news briefing in
:12:13. > :12:24.Geneva this week. There is literally no safe place for civilians in Gaza.
:12:25. > :12:30.Maybe you will tell me what we should do to fight Hamas relief they
:12:31. > :12:36.are hiding behind civilians. Do you have other ideas? `` if they are.
:12:37. > :12:42.What do we do if we have people under attack by Hamas hiding in
:12:43. > :12:46.hospitals? Should we sit by and say, we have nothing to do, let's wait
:12:47. > :12:52.until they can kill more. Let's allow them to build more tunnels and
:12:53. > :12:55.commit messages in our communities. A terrorist organisation are hiding
:12:56. > :13:04.behind civilians. It is very hard and sometimes come at civilians ``
:13:05. > :13:09.that sometimes civilians. They have different values to you and I. I was
:13:10. > :13:17.putting to you the fact that you are failing to protect civilians in
:13:18. > :13:22.Gaza. The UN says, I am not give new quotes, they say, where do people
:13:23. > :13:26.flee? There have been cases where people have heeded warnings from the
:13:27. > :13:29.Israelis and gone to different areas they believed were safe and they
:13:30. > :13:37.have been shelled there. That is the point, they have nowhere to run. In
:13:38. > :13:42.some neighbourhoods, I know that we gave warnings with text messages, we
:13:43. > :13:46.call them, we initiated contact with them and they did not leave their
:13:47. > :13:50.homes. They couldn't leave. They wanted to go, at the Hamas
:13:51. > :13:57.terrorists told them they couldn't leave. It isn't easy. We aren't
:13:58. > :14:01.dealing with a western society environment. Unfortunately, those
:14:02. > :14:06.people are hostages in the hands of Hamas. They are being used by them.
:14:07. > :14:13.When I see the pictures coming from Gaza, I am very sorry. It makes me
:14:14. > :14:16.sad. The Hamas are not sorry. They are happy about those pictures. They
:14:17. > :14:23.are using them to continue with their propaganda. It is a pity. We
:14:24. > :14:26.have to realise that. Your PM Benjamin Netanyahu said on CNN a
:14:27. > :14:30.couple of days ago that the Hamas are using telegenic that
:14:31. > :14:35.Palestinians for their own cause. Those were his exact wards. On this
:14:36. > :14:39.question of where the Palestinians can flee, obviously the borders of
:14:40. > :14:45.Gaza are closed, so they cannot leave Gaza. Nearly 2 million people
:14:46. > :14:50.in an area which is 25 miles long and seven miles at its widest. Just
:14:51. > :14:55.another example. BBC world affairs editor John Simpson said on a report
:14:56. > :15:00.on BBC that one resident in Satan, with an extended family of 45, told
:15:01. > :15:04.him we received the warnings to leave, but where do we go, the whole
:15:05. > :15:09.Gaza Strip is just a small box `` Zeitun. My point is this, when you
:15:10. > :15:13.say that you give warnings to civilians to leave, they can't heed
:15:14. > :15:20.those warnings necessarily, even if they can. First of all, I agree with
:15:21. > :15:25.you that to be a resident in Gaza today is unpleasant. It is hard. I
:15:26. > :15:28.understand. Yes, they can move. Before we operate in a
:15:29. > :15:32.neighbourhood, they can move to another part of Gaza, it isn't a
:15:33. > :15:38.small town. They can move to another place. We have seen it in the past.
:15:39. > :15:40.Unfortunately, in this operation, we haven't seen people running away
:15:41. > :15:46.before we move on. The reason they didn't do it, because they were
:15:47. > :15:51.threatened. In the past, you saw them going on their feet, by moving
:15:52. > :15:54.to another part of Gaza. We haven't seen it this time because Hamas
:15:55. > :15:59.understood that if they leave, it will be hard for them to hide. That
:16:00. > :16:05.is why we do see so many casualties. See so many casualties, OK. I put it
:16:06. > :16:09.to you that you are getting a lot of criticisms internationally. One
:16:10. > :16:16.example, the French Foreign Minister said on July 20 `` July 22,
:16:17. > :16:21.Israel's response has to be proportionate. 600 dead is obviously
:16:22. > :16:24.something we can't accept. Nothing justifies continued and tax and
:16:25. > :16:29.messages which we do nothing but only claim more victims and stoke
:16:30. > :16:34.tensions and hatred `` which will do nothing. He uses strong language.
:16:35. > :16:38.Massacres. He says your response is not proportionate. He makes a third
:16:39. > :16:44.point which is, at it doesn't achieve your objectives, it merely
:16:45. > :16:55.stokes hatred `` it doesn't. We hear those voices. We hear other voices.
:16:56. > :17:02.Carry, `` the Secretary General John Kerry came and said something else.
:17:03. > :17:06.Hamas would be able to continue to send metals into our towns. They
:17:07. > :17:15.won't be able to dig tunnels beneath the . `` the border. We have no
:17:16. > :17:20.Jewish communities, settlements, communities they are. We went out of
:17:21. > :17:30.Gaza. Instead of using the houses we used, the `` they took it. Instead
:17:31. > :17:40.of making Singapore the Gaza of the Middle East, they made it. Israel's
:17:41. > :17:47.blockade of Gaza has impoverished the puzzle skinny and is ``
:17:48. > :17:55.Palestinians. The people of Gaza haven't been flourishing. Let's
:17:56. > :17:59.speak about the blockade. I would like to, but in the context of the
:18:00. > :18:04.ceasefire, which are the Palestinians say, including
:18:05. > :18:09.President Mahmud of us, not just Hamas, that they will grease to the
:18:10. > :18:16.Government they will agree to the blockade if the ceasefire is lifted
:18:17. > :18:21.`` they will agree. We want to see them get electricity, gas, food, all
:18:22. > :18:31.they need from Gaza. What happens now? We allowed them to come from
:18:32. > :18:37.the port of Israel. They built tunnels to dig under the border. We
:18:38. > :18:41.want to see prosperity in Gaza. As long as Hamas is in charge, they
:18:42. > :18:47.will use everything we allow them in order to build more tunnels,
:18:48. > :18:49.missiles. This is unfortunate. Instead of using the cement for
:18:50. > :18:54.hospitals and kindergartens, the use it for tunnels. That would be a
:18:55. > :18:59.problem unless we are crude Hamas today. Just on those tunnels, one
:19:00. > :19:05.commentator from the Financial Times says, it would be easier to monitor
:19:06. > :19:13.traffic into Gaza if the borders were reopened `` uproot. As one
:19:14. > :19:17.Palestinian Member of Parliament said, have international monitors to
:19:18. > :19:25.see what is going in and out of Gaza to ensure that the wrong stuff isn't
:19:26. > :19:28.going in. Let's make a distinction. The tunnels are talking about are
:19:29. > :19:34.offensive tunnels for Hamas commandos to go inside Israel, to
:19:35. > :19:41.kidnap children and commit messages inside Israel. We aren't talking
:19:42. > :19:48.about tunnels are used to have. These tunnels, they have dozens of
:19:49. > :19:52.them. Maybe more. They are used to kidnap children, to kill Jewish
:19:53. > :19:56.people inside Israel. You see the amount of cement. Technology,
:19:57. > :20:03.electricity that they put into the tunnels is scary. You fell out with
:20:04. > :20:07.PM Benjamin Netanyahu because you said his response has been to
:20:08. > :20:16.feeble. What is your recipe for success? Just carry on, intensify
:20:17. > :20:22.the Israeli action on Gaza to completely obliterate these tunnels,
:20:23. > :20:29.regardless of the human cost `` too feeble. I had an argument with the
:20:30. > :20:33.PM because he accepted the premature ceasefire on Tuesday, which was a
:20:34. > :20:37.mistake. You cannot accept a ceasefire when you have hundreds of
:20:38. > :20:42.missiles in your hometown is, when you have dozens of tunnels risking
:20:43. > :20:45.your children. Now, what the PM and Government is doing is the right
:20:46. > :20:49.thing. We are discovering the tunnels, fighting against Hamas and
:20:50. > :20:53.we won't allow them to go back to square one. We are willing to talk
:20:54. > :21:00.about the future with the Palestinians, but to allow Hamas to
:21:01. > :21:07.become stronger again something we shouldn't allow. Have you revised
:21:08. > :21:11.the opinion of the PM? Do you now back in 100%? Have you told him
:21:12. > :21:18.that? Has he said anything back to you? Absolutely. The minute he went
:21:19. > :21:22.into the operation are told him publicly I support the PM and
:21:23. > :21:25.government. The criticism was when he accepted the ceasefire. I can't
:21:26. > :21:30.understand how we can except the ceasefire when we have so many
:21:31. > :21:35.tunnels, missiles, in our direction. That is something I couldn't accept
:21:36. > :21:42.and I said it publicly. Now, the PM has my full support of these ground
:21:43. > :21:46.operations. What do you think the Israeli response will be to this
:21:47. > :21:51.united demand by Palestine, including the President, not only
:21:52. > :21:56.Hamas's request, that the ceasefire will be ex` acted if the blockade on
:21:57. > :22:04.Gaza is lifted and if it's borders are opened? The biggest problem is
:22:05. > :22:13.that we aren't dealing with a rational player. You are talking
:22:14. > :22:23.about Abbas? Are you saying he is not rational? I am saying that Hamas
:22:24. > :22:27.isn't rational. All of the mediators coming to Israel, we are happy they
:22:28. > :22:37.are coming to help us. But, Hamas isn't rational. It isn't just Hamas,
:22:38. > :22:42.by the technocratic government, the PM, they have said, they want the
:22:43. > :22:46.blockade lifted. It has impoverished the people of Gaza to an extent
:22:47. > :22:50.which the UN accepts that before that blockade there was a vibrant
:22:51. > :22:54.economy. Now, 80% of the people of Gaza rely on handouts. They live in
:22:55. > :23:00.crowded conditions that are unsanitary. Not only Hamas make this
:23:01. > :23:06.request. What is the likelihood of Israel responding? We want to see
:23:07. > :23:11.prosperity in Gaza. We want to see the people in Gaza have a better
:23:12. > :23:17.education system, a better economy. When we look at Hamas and what they
:23:18. > :23:21.are doing, when we see what you have given them, the US, the UN, what
:23:22. > :23:27.they use the technology for, and we understand it won't work. They will
:23:28. > :23:34.use it against us. We want to see a better life for the people in Gaza,
:23:35. > :23:36.but with Hamas, it won't happen. President Peres of Israel said that
:23:37. > :23:44.the solution must be political, not military. Is he right or wrong,
:23:45. > :23:50.briefly? He is right regarding the vision. He is wrong about the
:23:51. > :23:57.partner. Hamas is not a partner for peace. They are a problem. When you
:23:58. > :24:00.have one, you have to deal with it, not ignore it. Danny Danon in
:24:01. > :24:10.Jerusalem, thank you very much for coming onto HARDtalk. Thank you very
:24:11. > :24:34.much. Once again, Wednesday was the
:24:35. > :24:39.warmest of the year. That is a cross paths of Scotland, Northern Ireland
:24:40. > :24:42.and into Wales. It was different if you were stuck under this low level
:24:43. > :24:45.cloud affecting parts of eastern shores for a while. The temperature
:24:46. > :24:46.is locked solidly into