:00:00. > :00:13.Now it is time for hard talk. This programme was recorded yesterday.
:00:14. > :00:20.Welcome to hard talk from Qatar, my guest today is Khaled Meshaal, the
:00:21. > :00:26.political chief of the Palestinian is a missed movement, Hamas, which
:00:27. > :00:30.is currently locked in a grim and costly military confrontation with
:00:31. > :00:35.Israel in Gaza. Right now, the pressure on Hamas is immense,
:00:36. > :00:39.military, political and diplomatic. So, is the showdown in Gaza a battle
:00:40. > :01:04.for the survival of Hamas. Side Michelle, thank you for joining
:01:05. > :01:08.me. More than 700 Palestinians have been killed in this current Gaza
:01:09. > :01:13.conflict, tens of thousands have fled their homes and the UN is
:01:14. > :01:18.talking about a humanitarian crisis for those who have been displaced,
:01:19. > :01:20.how long are you prepared to see your Palestinian people suffer like
:01:21. > :02:07.this? But I asked you specifically how
:02:08. > :02:12.long you are prepared to see this go on, because you were offered a
:02:13. > :02:16.truce, last week, the Egyptian government brokered a deal. The
:02:17. > :02:48.Israelis seemed ready to accept it, you refused, why?
:02:49. > :02:56.But if I may say so, it is one thing to say that, sitting here that we
:02:57. > :03:01.are no longer to accept the situation of siege as you call it.
:03:02. > :03:06.But if you are a Palestinian today in Gaza, surely the thing that you
:03:07. > :03:13.want above all else, is a truce for the firing to stop, and then Babs,
:03:14. > :03:16.Hamas, Israel, Egypt, the United States can talk about the deal. But
:03:17. > :04:02.surely, a truce must come first? Hamas stands accused of deliberately
:04:03. > :04:07.endangering the lives of Palestinian civilians, the Israeli government
:04:08. > :04:08.says that you are using Palestinians, men, women and
:04:09. > :04:45.children, as human shields. You talk of resistance, how can any
:04:46. > :04:57.idea of resistance justify putting rockets in a school building?
:04:58. > :05:04.But with respect, this is not something that has come from Israel,
:05:05. > :05:11.this is the UN relief and Works agency which has said that up to 20
:05:12. > :05:16.rockets were deposited in a school building, inside Gaza. They are
:05:17. > :05:21.furious, the Secretary General of the United Nations has expressed his
:05:22. > :05:24.outrage, he said those responsible are turning schools into potential
:05:25. > :05:56.military targets and endangering the lives of innocent children.
:05:57. > :06:03.But the question of why so many civilians are dying, again raises
:06:04. > :06:09.issues about the message given by Hamas, two Palestinian civilians,
:06:10. > :06:14.wife or example, when the Israeli military were issuing phone recorded
:06:15. > :06:20.warnings to people telling them to leave their homes, did the Hamas
:06:21. > :06:24.ministry of interior say "we call on the people not to cooperate with
:06:25. > :06:25.these messages, not to leave their homes but to continue with their
:06:26. > :06:49.lives". But what right do Hamas leaders who
:06:50. > :06:53.I dare say have their underground bunkers to keep them safe, what
:06:54. > :07:00.right do they have two say to all recent billions that they should not
:07:01. > :07:12.heed warnings from Israel, to leave for their own safety. `` to say to
:07:13. > :07:38.the population that they should not heed warnings.
:07:39. > :07:48.When the Hamas spokesman said on Al Aqsa television just a couple of
:07:49. > :07:51.days ago, that the policy of people protecting their homes with their
:07:52. > :07:57.bare chests has proved effective against this occupation, we call on
:07:58. > :07:58.people to adopt this policy. Do you think that was sensible? Was that
:07:59. > :08:23.moral? But telling people to stay in their
:08:24. > :08:27.homes when it is clear that the Israelis intend an attack, is in no
:08:28. > :09:23.way condemning them to death? Let me talk about Hamas's
:09:24. > :09:32.determination to continue with the rocket attacks, into Israel. This is
:09:33. > :09:34.the statement issued by the outgoing president of Israel, Shimon Peres.
:09:35. > :09:44."No state in the world would be accept rockets fired at its women
:09:45. > :09:49.and children. No state would accept terrorists are merging from tunnels
:09:50. > :09:54.to kill innocent people. Do you understand why the Israelis are so
:09:55. > :09:56.utterly determined to end this threat to their civilian population
:09:57. > :10:34.`` are emerging from tunnels. There is no question that Israel's
:10:35. > :10:41.military capability far outstrips yours, and there is no doubt that
:10:42. > :10:45.most of your rockets are completely ineffective but nonetheless, the
:10:46. > :10:49.fact that Hamas continues to fire them indiscriminately, that is the
:10:50. > :10:55.word used by the United Nations human rights chief, indiscriminately
:10:56. > :10:59.into Israel, does mean that Israel according to the US, the EU and
:11:00. > :11:00.international opinion it would seem, Israel has a right to defend
:11:01. > :11:56.itself? Despite the fact that you can see
:11:57. > :12:00.much better than me is that right now, this conflict seems to be
:12:01. > :12:04.locked in a determination from both sides to continue with the military
:12:05. > :12:09.actions that they are currently undertaking, I just wonder how far
:12:10. > :12:14.you are prepared to push this. One Hamas spokesman said recently, that
:12:15. > :12:19.rockets will be sent into Tel Aviv and even further. He was speaking
:12:20. > :12:21.after the rocket landed near the airport, is that the Hamas strategy
:12:22. > :13:02.right now? But let us talk a cease`fire, what
:13:03. > :13:27.would it take for Hamas to sign onto cease`fire now?
:13:28. > :13:34.What the Americans seem to be working on is a two stage deal,
:13:35. > :13:38.where there will be a truce, where the guns and rockets will stop
:13:39. > :13:42.firing, and then there will be a serious negotiation about how to
:13:43. > :13:47.boost the Gaza economy, Howard sees the blockade on Gaza, and to give
:13:48. > :13:49.the people of Gaza a better life, are you prepared to accept a 2`stage
:13:50. > :14:31.solution to this? But I want to be very clear about
:14:32. > :14:37.this because the world is watching you, you are the political leader of
:14:38. > :14:42.Hamas, you speak for Hamas. Are you prepared to take this step`by`step,
:14:43. > :14:47.tell your people, your military wing to stop firing the rockets, while
:14:48. > :14:52.you negotiate with the Egyptians, the Americans, whoever, a longer
:14:53. > :14:54.term agreement on changing the economic situation for the people in
:14:55. > :15:53.Gaza? I sense from you and at a
:15:54. > :15:58.determination not to return to the status quo, is not the truth that
:15:59. > :16:04.Hamas in many ways is weaker now than it has been in a very long
:16:05. > :16:08.time, you have lost key allies, I'm thinking of the Muslim brotherhood,
:16:09. > :16:14.your allies in Hirano, who won no longer so close to you. They are in
:16:15. > :16:17.desperate financial trouble `` you are in desperate financial trouble,
:16:18. > :16:22.you cannot even afford to pay the salaries of public sector workers,
:16:23. > :17:02.you are in a very weak position right now? Hamas is obviously right
:17:03. > :17:07.now committed to what you call resistance, what the Israelis called
:17:08. > :17:13.terrorism inflicted on their people from your rocket attacks. It just
:17:14. > :17:17.leaves me wondering, where the deal that you did with Fatah, the other
:17:18. > :17:23.key element in the Palestinian movement, where it stands right now?
:17:24. > :17:27.That deal for national unity government seems to be dead because
:17:28. > :18:05.that has announced violence, you are using violence. Where is the unity?
:18:06. > :18:14.If the national unity government is not dead, why are so many Hamas
:18:15. > :18:17.activists and officials accusing Matt Muda bass and the Palestinian
:18:18. > :18:21.Authority leadership of collaboration with Israel in
:18:22. > :18:26.security crackdowns against Hamas activists in the West Bank, it does
:18:27. > :18:27.not sound to me like there is any credibility to this idea that fatter
:18:28. > :18:56.and Hamas can work together? At the beginning of this interview,
:18:57. > :19:03.you traced the current violence back, to the fallout from the murder
:19:04. > :19:10.of three teenage Israeli boys, in the West Bank. Are you now prepared
:19:11. > :19:12.to acknowledge, that that murder, those murders, were the work of
:19:13. > :19:55.Hamas? But the reason I raise this issue,
:19:56. > :20:02.it gets to the heart of a fundamental question, what is
:20:03. > :20:10.Hamas's strategy? Is it just to rely always upon violence, upon terror,
:20:11. > :20:14.and believe that in the end those instruments can deliver you what you
:20:15. > :20:57.called liberation? Do you really believe that?
:20:58. > :21:04.Right now Hamas officials in the West Bank as well as in Gaza, are
:21:05. > :21:08.talking about a third intifada, they are talking about violence sweeping
:21:09. > :21:09.across the occupied territories, do you really think that will help
:21:10. > :21:48.Palestinian people? I just want to end with maybe a
:21:49. > :21:51.slightly more personal question because you and I have talked
:21:52. > :21:57.actually several times over the years, over long years and every
:21:58. > :22:03.time you tell me that the Hamas strategy, armed resistance, refusal
:22:04. > :22:09.to recognise Israel, will in the end leads the Palestinian people to what
:22:10. > :22:13.you call liberation. But look at what has happened over the course of
:22:14. > :22:17.the years that we have been talking, the plight of the Palestinians today
:22:18. > :22:24.too many people outside looks worse, more bleak than it has ever looked
:22:25. > :22:26.before, is there a tiny part of you that now questions whether your
:22:27. > :23:19.strategy makes sense. You are talking about a long`term
:23:20. > :23:21.vision, a final thought, when do you believe that the current conflict in
:23:22. > :24:09.Gaza will end? Khaled Meshaal, I thank you for
:24:10. > :24:15.joining me, thank you very much. Yellow you are welcome. Welcome.
:24:16. > :24:40.hello good evening again, today we have seen temperatures reaching 30
:24:41. > :24:46.degrees but through the weekend from the Northwest we will introduce
:24:47. > :24:51.cooler and pressure air, but there will be some showers all long spells
:24:52. > :24:59.of rain too. Certainly we have had a lot of rain, in these storms across
:25:00. > :25:00.at least of England, causing some disruption, but they will be fading