:00:00. > :00:00.legally do. Now on BBC News, it's time for
:00:00. > :00:31.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, from the
:00:32. > :00:34.capital of Moldova. Right now, the stage for another political and
:00:35. > :00:37.strategic tug of war between the European Union and Russia is set. My
:00:38. > :00:42.guest is the Prime Minister of Moldova. Iurie Leanca. His ambition
:00:43. > :00:45.is for this country to become a full member of the European Union. But
:00:46. > :00:48.there is a problem. A chunk of territory has been in the control of
:00:49. > :00:55.pro`Russian separatists since the collapse of the Soviet Union. That
:00:56. > :01:10.may sound a little familiar. So, how does Moldova avoid the fate of
:01:11. > :01:17.Ukraine? Welcome to HARDtalk. Has the crisis
:01:18. > :01:26.and violence brought a sense of vulnerability in Moldova? Well, the
:01:27. > :01:29.tragic developments in Ukraine, just in our neighbourhood, of course are
:01:30. > :01:47.very dangerous for Ukraine and for the region. Not just because of the
:01:48. > :01:56.violent actions. It is very hard for security. It's now basically
:01:57. > :02:01.destroyed. We need to launch the process again. And it does raise
:02:02. > :02:10.concerns in terms of security and in terms of the economic situation. We
:02:11. > :02:20.are a small country and we are dependent and vulnerable. You feel
:02:21. > :02:25.vulnerable? You sound like you do. It's brought and still brings
:02:26. > :02:30.uncertainty. There is nothing worse than that. We don't know what will
:02:31. > :02:37.happen today or tomorrow. You need to have answers, positive and
:02:38. > :02:41.negative. You talk about uncertainty. Surely what has become
:02:42. > :02:44.more clear and more certain is that Russia has the ability and,
:02:45. > :02:47.certainly, the intention to impose its influence and, ultimately, you
:02:48. > :03:00.could argue, its authority on its neighbourhood, what they call the
:03:01. > :03:09.near abroad, the old Soviet Empire. And you stand as part of that near
:03:10. > :03:14.abroad. Well, we are not direct neighbours with Russia. But it's an
:03:15. > :03:19.important country to us for many reasons. You used to be part of the
:03:20. > :03:26.union. We used to be part of the Empire. Vladimir Putin wants to
:03:27. > :03:32.reassert Russian authority over what used to be the Soviet Empire. What
:03:33. > :03:36.we have to understand, there are new realities. We have to understand the
:03:37. > :03:38.realities of a new world. Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan,
:03:39. > :03:44.Russia, they are all equal subjects of international law. If he wants to
:03:45. > :03:47.have a predictable and civilised relationship in this part of the
:03:48. > :03:55.world and wants to build a prosperous region, we need to
:03:56. > :03:59.respect each other's opinions. We need to recognise. By the way, we
:04:00. > :04:04.always acknowledge Russia as a legitimate interest. The only
:04:05. > :04:07.problem is, how do you pursue that? Does Russia have legitimate
:04:08. > :04:13.interests in Moldova? Russia does, as does the EU, US, Chinese, big
:04:14. > :04:20.countries. The only problem is how you pursue those interests. You can
:04:21. > :04:25.project your attractiveness. That is what the EU does and that is what
:04:26. > :04:32.Russia should do. They should have influence and a role in development.
:04:33. > :04:34.You must have thought about this closely because you more than any
:04:35. > :04:36.other Moldovan politician have driven through this closer
:04:37. > :04:43.relationship with the European Union. In a sense, the association
:04:44. > :04:46.agreement that you have just signed is your baby and you know better
:04:47. > :04:56.than anyone that Moscow regards it as highly provocative. Well, this
:04:57. > :05:05.stance of Moscow on this decision, especially in regards to trade, is
:05:06. > :05:08.new. When we came to power in 2009, in September, since then, we have
:05:09. > :05:21.pursued the same rhetoric, the same objectives It was not the secret to
:05:22. > :05:25.anyone. So it was not a secret and that's why this reaction is a bit
:05:26. > :05:34.strange to us. That's number one. Number two, we respect the opinion
:05:35. > :05:37.of our neighbours. We have two neighbours. What is most important
:05:38. > :05:45.for me as a politician is to choose our path. From my understanding, my
:05:46. > :05:53.analysis, our judgement, there's no alternative. To us, if you want to
:05:54. > :05:56.build a normal European, and, to some extent, boring society, it is
:05:57. > :05:59.important that all of these new countries in the European Union, we
:06:00. > :06:11.need to apply the same standards and the same rules. Then I am sure
:06:12. > :06:16.Moldova will become a functioning state. There are no alternatives.
:06:17. > :06:19.That is your hope and I can sense the passion in those words but you
:06:20. > :06:22.must have heard the deputy Russian Prime Minister say just the other
:06:23. > :06:24.day, " Disassociation with the European Union means Moldova is
:06:25. > :06:38.fundamentally changing its neutral status." As far as Russia is
:06:39. > :06:42.concerned, that is not acceptable. Well, he used to say many things.
:06:43. > :06:50.Usually, he communicates with us via Twitter and Facebook. I would prefer
:06:51. > :06:54.to have direct communication. An exchange of views and arguments.
:06:55. > :06:57.There are members of the EU that are neutral countries, outside the
:06:58. > :07:08.military blocs like Austria, Sweden, Finland. By becoming a member of the
:07:09. > :07:14.EU, it was still be a long way before we were fully`fledged
:07:15. > :07:18.members. It doesn't mean that we need to change our status as a
:07:19. > :07:21.neutral country. It has nothing to do with it. It is simply a wrong and
:07:22. > :07:28.distorted approach on what neutrality means and what future
:07:29. > :07:32.membership means. Why do you think the Russians are playing this game?
:07:33. > :07:35.If you think it's a game. It's difficult to understand. In our
:07:36. > :07:37.dialogue with officials in Moscow, the foreign ministry, because they
:07:38. > :07:41.represent the country's official positions, they know very well that
:07:42. > :07:52.us moving to the EU does not affect neutrality. For my country,
:07:53. > :07:56.neutrality is still an asset. We don't have to prove it. Russian
:07:57. > :08:00.colleagues could and should help us to prove it. It is not a liability.
:08:01. > :08:03.It could bring more predictability, security and reliability to the
:08:04. > :08:08.country. That's what I'd like him to focus on. If he is a fan of our
:08:09. > :08:16.neutrality, he should help us to get rid of the Russian army from
:08:17. > :08:20.Transnistria. I am glad you have raised that subject. It fascinates
:08:21. > :08:23.me that we talk about Russia and we should, for the audience, explain
:08:24. > :08:30.that you were trained in Moscow during the time of the Soviet Union
:08:31. > :08:33.as a diplomat. You even served for a short time as a Soviet diplomat
:08:34. > :08:38.before the collapse of the Soviet Union. You know the mindset well.
:08:39. > :08:41.You know how much Moscow still sees the situation in the area where
:08:42. > :08:50.there's a small population that has broken away from your state, even
:08:51. > :08:55.though it's on your territory. It looks to Moscow for your future. You
:08:56. > :09:03.know it gives them leverage in your country. It's true I was trained as
:09:04. > :09:11.a diplomat in the 1980s and I am proud and grateful to those who
:09:12. > :09:14.taught me in Moscow. And you know that there are nearly 2000 Russian
:09:15. > :09:21.troops permanently stationed on your soil inside Transnistria? That gives
:09:22. > :09:30.Russia a huge stake in the future of that area in Moldova. It is not just
:09:31. > :09:34.through this military presence. Russia was, is, and always will be
:09:35. > :09:36.an important partner in our joint efforts, together with the
:09:37. > :09:47.Ukrainians, to find a political solution. No`one neglects or ignores
:09:48. > :09:55.or underestimates the influence of Russia. My only request was always
:09:56. > :09:57.to my Russian colleagues and friends, that they acknowledge our
:09:58. > :10:10.interests and let's change the way that it is pursued. After 23 years,
:10:11. > :10:18.since the former Soviet Union was broken, it is still a painful
:10:19. > :10:24.process. Until we learn that there are new realities. Sometimes, it is
:10:25. > :10:27.not the Russian approach. Sometimes, emotions are the basis for certain
:10:28. > :10:29.decisions. You must realise that, if your relations with Moscow continue
:10:30. > :10:32.to deteriorate, there is a very real possibility that Russian military
:10:33. > :10:43.intervention could happen in that region, just as it did in Crimea.
:10:44. > :10:46.You would be powerless to stop it. Transnistria is beyond our control,
:10:47. > :10:52.you're right. Nothing happened to the extent that the situation would
:10:53. > :11:01.be outside anyone's control. I appreciate that Moscow did exercise
:11:02. > :11:11.a type of stabilising effect. That's what I can hope for the future. It
:11:12. > :11:17.is very fragile. It is fragile. But there is a mechanism, there are
:11:18. > :11:20.talks. I hope that no`one is interested in a new source of
:11:21. > :11:23.tension. I'll tell you what, we mentioned the deputy Prime Minister
:11:24. > :11:30.in Russia, who's responsible for Transnistria. He made a point of
:11:31. > :11:38.going to the victory day celebrations a couple of months ago
:11:39. > :11:41.in May. While he was there, he said, "We will do everything necessary to
:11:42. > :11:52.act as guarantors of security." That is a threat to you. I'm not saying
:11:53. > :11:57.we ignore or neglect what he says but unfortunately, sometimes, it is
:11:58. > :12:00.not constructive. His statements are offensive. But we're trying to do
:12:01. > :12:11.our best not to give people any reason to take a line that would
:12:12. > :12:14.lead to worsening the relationship. We want to keep active political
:12:15. > :12:24.dialogue and we want trade to develop. We believe that this makes
:12:25. > :12:30.is more predictable and stable. It serves our relationships in the US
:12:31. > :12:33.and with the East. I can see that this might work while you are in
:12:34. > :12:37.power because she will push forward with this policy but there are
:12:38. > :12:40.elections coming in November. The main opposition party and its
:12:41. > :12:43.allies, the communists, are opposed to this agreement and they want,
:12:44. > :12:55.actually, to join the Russian`backed customs union closer to Moscow. Your
:12:56. > :12:57.predecessor as Prime Minister said the other day that Russia has
:12:58. > :13:00.increased its intelligence activity and said Moldova and political
:13:01. > :13:03.parties, NGOs, the media, and they have only one objective, to
:13:04. > :13:04.destabilise the government in the run`up to the elections. Do you
:13:05. > :13:30.agree? So far, I have no evidence of this
:13:31. > :13:46.direct activities or its subversive nature . Our key problem, again ` we
:13:47. > :13:57.can always say that Moscow is meddling, is responsible. Moscow's
:13:58. > :14:00.Ansett to say it is in charge `` answer. Just to look for forgiveness
:14:01. > :14:03.for our kind of impotence but that is not exactly what I think we
:14:04. > :14:08.should do. There are things which depend on us and things that don't.
:14:09. > :14:11.What happens in the region is beyond our control. There are things and
:14:12. > :14:14.issues and weaknesses in our society which are our direct responsibility.
:14:15. > :14:16.We need much more sustainable institutions. It is our
:14:17. > :14:19.responsibility to make our institutions much stronger.
:14:20. > :14:33.Corruption. It is our responsibility, our guilt and we
:14:34. > :14:35.need to do much more. Your aspirations ` you coined a phrase
:14:36. > :14:38.for your strategy, you called it Rethink Moldova and you wanted to
:14:39. > :14:48.tell Moldova that if you are to become a part of the European
:14:49. > :14:52.institutional and structural reform. The problem seems to me to be this:
:14:53. > :15:00.You are not in any position to fix the endemic, systematic corruption
:15:01. > :15:11.inside your country. Not true. Yes, we were quite slow in tackling this
:15:12. > :15:20.it is not just endangering the activities
:15:21. > :15:34.for citizens in day`to`day life. They don't have confidence in
:15:35. > :15:38.and support from American and European friends. Those who believe
:15:39. > :15:43.in independent justice, but, justice which should act according to law.
:15:44. > :15:47.In the last one month, to give you one example, we jailed, for the
:15:48. > :15:49.first time in our history, two judges. This is extremely difficult
:15:50. > :15:57.because we have seen huge resistance. It shows the serious
:15:58. > :16:02.nature of our approach. It also shows that colleagues in justice
:16:03. > :16:08.understand we cannot leave it like this. Society has reached a critical
:16:09. > :16:12.point. We need to change it. What I am saying is, it is not easy... You
:16:13. > :16:14.have put a couple of judges behind bars and police officers as well.
:16:15. > :16:20.The people you have put behind bars are the people that
:16:21. > :16:24.really matter, the politicians and their friends at the very top
:16:25. > :16:28.Moldova who are driving the corruption. I say you are in no
:16:29. > :16:30.position to fix this problem and I see it because you came to power
:16:31. > :16:34.because your predecessor was locked in a bitter set of allegations and
:16:35. > :16:43.counter allegations with Moldova's richest businessmen. `` I say it
:16:44. > :16:48.because. The former PM, the businessmen still hold key
:16:49. > :16:58.positions. One is still a leader of a key coalition group. He
:16:59. > :17:06.effectively decides the prosecutor in the anticorruption department.
:17:07. > :17:18.These people are still at the very top of your government. They are
:17:19. > :17:23.under a cloud of suspicion. Again, if you look at what has happened in
:17:24. > :17:26.the last few months. It is understanding that everyone at the
:17:27. > :17:38.top of this political elite and at the grassroots understands we
:17:39. > :17:47.cannot... Bear any more. Why is he still a key member of your governing
:17:48. > :17:50.coalition? Why was his party given the authority to appoint the
:17:51. > :17:53.prosecutor general? He is a high ranking member of the democratic
:17:54. > :18:01.party... You know, you know all of the allegations... No`one has proved
:18:02. > :18:10.that... You need to prove that someone is guilty. Until it is not
:18:11. > :18:13.proven, he's not guilty. You are the man who has vowed to completely
:18:14. > :18:17.change the mentality of your country. Now you sound like a man
:18:18. > :18:24.who is part of the old regime. That is why it is so important for us to
:18:25. > :18:37.see an independent justice system. That is why European integration is
:18:38. > :18:41.so important for us. The European Commission is offering us money and
:18:42. > :18:44.expertise but puts pressure on us. I am not a lawyer myself but
:18:45. > :18:47.understand if you don't start with a justice system, you will never be
:18:48. > :18:58.able, really, to fight corruption and put officials behind bars.
:18:59. > :19:10.If the judge could be bought, how do you take to justice those who are
:19:11. > :19:22.punishable? That is why we have received from the European
:19:23. > :19:31.Commission a 60 million euro grant. You have got a lot of work to do. I
:19:32. > :19:49.want you to address for me the perception that Europe and the EU
:19:50. > :19:53.has of Moldova today. You want to be a full member of the EU. You say it
:19:54. > :19:56.can be achieved within five years. I wonder if you are aware of the
:19:57. > :19:59.degree to which the EU looks at Moldova and sees a place where not
:20:00. > :20:02.just corruption is endemic but organised crime is a massive
:20:03. > :20:08.problem... And, the people trafficking. On the people
:20:09. > :20:12.trafficking, if you look back, 2009 and today, the trend is very
:20:13. > :20:15.positive. That is what Americans and people in Brussels can confirm. Yes,
:20:16. > :20:18.we still have a problem but the situation is much better in terms of
:20:19. > :20:24.prevention and punishing those who were engaged. Before 2009 almost
:20:25. > :20:29.no`one was put behind bars. The same goes for organised crime. This city
:20:30. > :20:37.is pretty secure. Yes, we still have problems. But, we are reforming in
:20:38. > :20:42.critical ways. I just wonder if you feel you have missed a window of
:20:43. > :20:44.opportunity in Europe. If you see the last European election results,
:20:45. > :20:46.you see an extraordinary performance by nationalistic and sometimes
:20:47. > :20:49.xenophobic political parties that are anti`immigrant, worried about
:20:50. > :21:01.open borders and frankly they are very worried about extending the EU
:21:02. > :21:04.to countries like Moldova. It may be that the political temperature in
:21:05. > :21:15.much of the EU has moved against Moldova. Our people have proved to
:21:16. > :21:29.be among the best people in terms of integrating themselves into society.
:21:30. > :21:33.There are many Moldovans in Italy. When I told the PM of Portugal we
:21:34. > :21:37.need to take them out they said no, they are very good. We really need
:21:38. > :21:40.them back home. I still believe that the window of opportunity is there.
:21:41. > :21:43.What makes me happy is despite the new feelings in Europe, everyone
:21:44. > :21:46.understands that it would be, it would mean we are able to spread
:21:47. > :21:47.stability further in south`eastern Europe and not allow the instability
:21:48. > :22:04.to be driven into the EU. If I may say so, Mr PM, you strike
:22:05. > :22:07.me as an eternal optimist. Is not the likely outcome for Moldova that
:22:08. > :22:10.you will be stuck in a twilight zone? You will be the subject of a
:22:11. > :22:14.perpetual tug`of`war between Moscow and the European Union? The net
:22:15. > :22:22.result will be that you will not be able to achieve the aspirations that
:22:23. > :22:34.you have set out with me? One year ago, people did not believe. They
:22:35. > :22:44.never believed we could get this visa`free regime. 60,000 Moldovans
:22:45. > :22:47.benefited from this. I am quite optimistic that yes, we will be able
:22:48. > :22:50.to get the European perspective to be candidate and then become, I
:22:51. > :23:00.don't know, five, seven, eight years. It is critical for me to win
:23:01. > :23:03.the elections and to become the candidate and then we will be put on
:23:04. > :23:06.the irreversible side of the pro`democratic reform. And you will
:23:07. > :23:32.not let Vladimir Putin dictate the future? We need to convince al Zeach
:23:33. > :23:35.citizens that we can do it. `` al `` our citizens. I believe the wisdom
:23:36. > :23:38.of my fellow citizens and with support from European friend and
:23:39. > :23:41.citizens, we will get there. Thank you very much to being on HARDtalk.
:23:42. > :24:03.Thank you for your interest and I hope you come again to visit us.
:24:04. > :24:09.Hello. We have continued with the north`south divide over the last few
:24:10. > :24:12.days. The best of the warmth and sunshine is in the south and the
:24:13. > :24:15.south`east. More showers across the north. Tonight it looks like showers
:24:16. > :24:18.will continue across northern and western parts of the UK, quite a
:24:19. > :24:21.breeze here as well. In the south`east, largely dry with clear
:24:22. > :24:25.spells. By dawn, temperatures are sitting around these sorts of
:24:26. > :24:27.temperatures. Cool and fresher in rural spots but mild in the towns