:00:00. > :00:07.Africa. That is it. You are up to date with
:00:08. > :00:26.the headlines. Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:27. > :00:33.Today, HARDtalk is in a corner of Europe stuck in political and
:00:34. > :00:37.strategic limbo. Welcome to Transnistria, a sliver of territory
:00:38. > :00:45.inside Moldova, which for the past two decades or so has been in the
:00:46. > :00:48.hands of pro`Russian separatists. My guest today is that the self`styled
:00:49. > :00:57.president of Transnistria, Yevgeny Shevchuk. As Russia flexes its
:00:58. > :01:02.muscle across the former Soviet space, could Transnistria become a
:01:03. > :01:09.new zone of conflict between Russia and the West?
:01:10. > :01:16.Yevgeny Shevchuk, welcome to HARDtalk. There is something quite
:01:17. > :01:24.extraordinary about your small territory. It looks and feels like
:01:25. > :01:30.the soviet union never went away. Do you see that as a sign of success?
:01:31. > :01:51.`` Soviet Union. Obviously, the impression is based
:01:52. > :01:56.on what I see and for example, what I see behind you is the flag that
:01:57. > :02:00.your territory has adopted, which of course has the very prominent hammer
:02:01. > :02:06.and sickle, the symbol of the soviet union. Does that indicate that you
:02:07. > :02:43.want a system here and an ideology which goes back to the Soviet days?
:02:44. > :02:51.You make a great deal of the symbols. You have built what you
:02:52. > :02:56.call a nation. You have a flag, you have your own currency, the ruble.
:02:57. > :03:04.You have your own passports. But, it is all a fantasy. Nobody outside of
:03:05. > :03:05.this tiny territory recognises the legitimacy of what you call, your
:03:06. > :03:46.state. Bad, what is the point of a passport
:03:47. > :04:06.that you cannot use? I don't understand `` but.
:04:07. > :04:18.You said, when you were elected in 2011, that you were determined and
:04:19. > :04:20.you would work tirelessly to win international recognition for
:04:21. > :04:49.Transnistria. On that basis, you have failed.
:04:50. > :04:58.Things are changing very fast in this neighbourhood. And, obviously,
:04:59. > :05:03.at the top of the list of changes is what has happened in Ukraine. Do you
:05:04. > :05:06.see the crisis of that, I mean, your neighbour, Ukraine, as a threat? Or,
:05:07. > :05:54.an opportunity? We have seen terrible violence in
:05:55. > :06:03.Ukraine. Do you fear that such is the potential for conflict here in
:06:04. > :06:11.Transnistria that there could be new violence here, particularly if
:06:12. > :07:22.Moscow decides that it needs to intervene in this territory?
:07:23. > :07:30.In April, the delivered what you call your state of the nation at
:07:31. > :07:37.rest and you made a point of saying that you wanted to see Transnistria
:07:38. > :07:43.independent, but then forging a future with Russia. Your Parliament
:07:44. > :07:49.has appealed with Russia to annex this territory, just like Crimea ``
:07:50. > :07:53.address. Is that really the lesson you draw from what has happened in
:07:54. > :08:13.Ukraine, that you want Russia to annex you?
:08:14. > :08:22.If I may, the referendum, as you know, had no international
:08:23. > :08:24.legitimacy or standing whatsoever. It doesn't mean anything, the vote
:08:25. > :08:48.that you had in 2006. But, with respect, I just wonder
:08:49. > :08:53.whether you appreciate the degree to which the stands are shifting all
:08:54. > :08:56.around you. We now have in Moldova, just a fume aisles that way, a
:08:57. > :09:03.government which has signed an association agreement with the
:09:04. > :09:07.European union. A few miles that way, a government in the has also
:09:08. > :09:11.signed an agreement with the European Union. Both of your
:09:12. > :09:17.neighbours are looking to the west, to the European Union, which leaves
:09:18. > :09:20.you, sandwiched between them, more isolated than ever before `` up a
:09:21. > :10:08.few miles away. It seems to me that, whether you
:10:09. > :10:12.like it or not, a lot of your own people see that the political wind
:10:13. > :10:17.has changed and that they need to change too. For example, I am sure
:10:18. > :10:22.that you are very well aware that a huge number of the people in your
:10:23. > :10:26.own territory now either have or want to get a Moldovan passport. Why
:10:27. > :11:09.do you think that is? But, surely, this tells you
:11:10. > :11:14.something. The figure you didn't come up with was almost 200,000
:11:15. > :11:19.people now have Moldovan passport. The reason they do is they can see
:11:20. > :11:22.huge attractions to be Moldovan. Not least thanks to the agreement that
:11:23. > :11:26.has now been signed, Moldovan passport holders can travel freely,
:11:27. > :11:34.without visas, across the Sjinkie Knegt rear of the European Union. ``
:11:35. > :11:38.Schengin. I have heard that you yourself have looked into getting a
:11:39. > :11:39.Moldovan passport. This shows the craziness of your determination to
:11:40. > :12:14.be separate from Moldova. Do you not accept that, looking
:12:15. > :12:21.forward and at the economic situation in your territory, and
:12:22. > :12:26.considering where the economic potential lies for your people, it
:12:27. > :12:34.would be better for your people to make a future with Moldova plan to
:12:35. > :13:08.continue to look east to Russia, a territory which you are separated
:13:09. > :13:12.from by hundreds of miles? Let me focus for a little bit on your
:13:13. > :13:18.relationship with Moscow. You have told me that, you know, you are an
:13:19. > :13:22.independent state, state being a word that I am putting in quotation
:13:23. > :13:28.marks. You aren't independent at all. If one looks at the facts of
:13:29. > :13:33.your territory and how it works, you are totally reliant on Moscow. Let's
:13:34. > :13:39.start with gas supplies. And, energy. Basically, it you don't pay
:13:40. > :13:45.for the energy, the gas, that you get from Gazprom. You haven't paid
:13:46. > :13:50.for years for this gas. In fact, you owe $5 billion. Far from being
:13:51. > :13:53.independent, you are entirely reliant on Gazprom, on Russia, for
:13:54. > :14:29.your energy supplies. Would you accept that you are
:14:30. > :14:33.entirely dependent upon Russia's largess? Your gas supplies, which
:14:34. > :14:38.you get for free, unless Russia changes its mind. Also, Russia props
:14:39. > :14:40.up your official budget. Without Russia, your government would be
:14:41. > :14:58.completely bankrupt. But they have to pay for their gas,
:14:59. > :15:03.you don't have to pay for your gas, Russia gives it to you for free.
:15:04. > :15:09.And the budget deficit, you accept your government would be completely
:15:10. > :15:11.bankrupt were it not for the cash injection Russia sense to you every
:15:12. > :15:22.single year. They prop you up. And then there's the question of the
:15:23. > :15:23.troops. How many troops are there here from Russia on your territory
:15:24. > :15:50.today? The Russians promised to remove all
:15:51. > :15:51.of their military forces from this territory in 1995, and they are
:15:52. > :16:06.still here. I just wonder whether you ever worry
:16:07. > :16:14.that you are being used by Moscow. It is very useful for the Russians
:16:15. > :16:20.to have this" Frozen conflict" inside mol dova. They don't want to
:16:21. > :16:24.recognise your independence. They don't want to give you a union with
:16:25. > :16:29.the Russian Federation. They just want to keep you here as a stone in
:16:30. > :16:38.the shoe of Moldova and of the European Union.
:16:39. > :16:46.I tell you who else is an optimist, and I met him the other day, and he
:16:47. > :16:51.maintained a very positive view of what will happen in Transnistria,
:16:52. > :16:59.and that is the Prime Minister of mol dova, Mr your region anchor. He
:17:00. > :17:06.believes in the end Transnistrians will see the logic, the sense, of
:17:07. > :17:12.unifying, returning to mol dova stop he says the economic opportunities
:17:13. > :17:17.are there for you to see. He says he is offering autonomy. He says he
:17:18. > :17:24.wants monitoring systems without military, but a monetary system to
:17:25. > :17:28.insure your rights are reserved and he believes in the long`running
:17:29. > :17:30.Transnistria will have a future inside Moldova `` monitoring
:17:31. > :18:15.system. Do you think that the demographic
:18:16. > :18:22.situation here points to optimism when, in 1990, at the time of the
:18:23. > :18:27.collapse of the Soviet Union, 700,000 people lived in your
:18:28. > :18:30.territory and right now today all of the best estimates suggest fewer
:18:31. > :18:36.than 500,000 people actually live on your soil, even though you're very
:18:37. > :18:42.cagey about the figures. You are haemorrhaging people. You're now
:18:43. > :18:46.down to a point where to talk of a nation in such a territory, with
:18:47. > :18:54.such a tiny population, just seems absurd.
:18:55. > :18:58.Which have found a successful economic formula, which clearly you
:18:59. > :19:45.have not found. You say you are an optimist and you
:19:46. > :19:47.believe in the people in your territory. If that's the case, why
:19:48. > :19:52.is it that according to human rights organisations like Freedom House,
:19:53. > :19:54.freedom of expression is certainly dearly curtailed here. The state
:19:55. > :20:01.exercises control of the broadcast media, public protests require a
:20:02. > :20:04.permit, the judiciary is subservient to the executive and politically
:20:05. > :21:01.motivated arrests and detentions are commonplace. Why?
:21:02. > :21:07.In terms of rights, one of the issues which international
:21:08. > :21:11.campaigners have looked at is the way in which Moldovan citizens,
:21:12. > :21:17.people who particularly use the Moldovan language, are treated on
:21:18. > :21:20.the soil here in Transnistria. In 2012, European Court of Human Rights
:21:21. > :21:25.ruling found that there were unacceptable restrictions on the
:21:26. > :21:30.teaching of Moldovan in schools, on your territory. In fact Russia was
:21:31. > :21:33.held responsible and was fined. Why is it that you are so frightened of
:21:34. > :21:58.people speaking the Moldovan language?
:21:59. > :22:05.With respect, this wasn't a complaint directed by the Moldovan
:22:06. > :22:07.government. This was a complaint and a ruling that came from the European
:22:08. > :23:22.Court of Human Rights. Before we end, I just want to think
:23:23. > :23:28.a little bit about the future. If you look at the young people that
:23:29. > :23:33.you are responsible for in this territory and you think about their
:23:34. > :23:37.children as well, do you really think the course you are pursuing
:23:38. > :23:51.today is in their best long`term interests?
:23:52. > :23:55.Yevgeny Shevchuk, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank
:23:56. > :23:58.you.