:00:00. > :00:23.twin sister was taken to Australia by the unidentified couple. Now on
:00:24. > :00:29.BBC News it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to a special edition of
:00:30. > :00:34.HARDtalk from a very wet Sarajevo. We are marking the centenary of the
:00:35. > :00:43.start of the First World War and it was right here that the incident
:00:44. > :00:53.that led to the First World War occurred. Archduke Frantz Ferdinand
:00:54. > :00:58.who was the next in line to the Habsburg imperial crown was visiting
:00:59. > :01:02.this city and came down the main road, turning around this corner
:01:03. > :01:08.where he came face to face with the young Bosnian Serb radical who
:01:09. > :01:14.killed him. He had a gun and opened fire, killing the Archduke and his
:01:15. > :01:22.wife and Europe was never to be the same again. In little over a month,
:01:23. > :01:26.an unimaginable slaughter had begun that changed the face of this
:01:27. > :01:34.continent forever. Today, my guest is Karl von Habsburg, the grandson
:01:35. > :01:45.of the last Habsburg Emperor. He will reflect on Europe then and
:01:46. > :01:51.now. Karl von Habsburg, welcome to HARDtalk. We are sitting in the
:01:52. > :01:54.museum here in Sarajevo, a few metres from where Archduke Frantz
:01:55. > :02:00.Ferdinand who was the uncle of your grandfather was assassinated. Is it
:02:01. > :02:08.a strange feeling for you? Not really. I haven't experienced that
:02:09. > :02:13.time so I am looking at it as someone who is historically
:02:14. > :02:16.interested who had a big advantage in that I still have a chance to
:02:17. > :02:20.talk to people who were alive at the time who could tell me about it. It
:02:21. > :02:25.doesn't create an emotional attachment to it. I would much
:02:26. > :02:30.rather look at it and see the effects it had on the First World
:02:31. > :02:36.War and the time afterwards and what we can learn from that time. You
:02:37. > :02:45.obviously put a huge amount of distance to wean yourself and the
:02:46. > :02:50.events of June 1914 but it was then that the fate of your family was
:02:51. > :02:57.sealed and that is something that you can never escape from ``
:02:58. > :03:02.between. Of course not but the events that unraveled after that, it
:03:03. > :03:06.was just something that no one at the time had the perspective to see
:03:07. > :03:11.what would come from it. In all of Europe, the scene was set for war
:03:12. > :03:17.and none of the people in power were able to see the dimension of it.
:03:18. > :03:22.Everyone was expecting a small regional conflict and if it had not
:03:23. > :03:27.been for the assassination here in Sarajevo, it would have started
:03:28. > :03:34.somewhere else. The way that your relative, Franz Ferdinand, has been
:03:35. > :03:38.characterized by history is frankly quite negative. He is seen as a man
:03:39. > :03:45.who represented an empire that was dying, that was out of touch. One
:03:46. > :03:51.that had been hollowed out. Is that the way you see him and your
:03:52. > :03:55.family? Of course when I look at the Austro`Hungarian Empire, there were
:03:56. > :04:00.elements of it that were old`fashioned and too slow and not
:04:01. > :04:03.modern enough for the time but there were other elements that were
:04:04. > :04:07.incredibly modern and forward looking. Frantz Ferdinand was
:04:08. > :04:13.someone who saw the difficulties of his time. On one side, he was
:04:14. > :04:17.absolutely loyal to the Emperor and I think he really appreciated it
:04:18. > :04:22.although the relationship was not always described correctly. It was
:04:23. > :04:27.often described as negative. The common perception is that they hated
:04:28. > :04:32.each other. But that is just wrong. The Emperor had to take certain
:04:33. > :04:38.steps due to the marriage that Franz Ferdinand had at the time which were
:04:39. > :04:42.not in line with family rules. But the Emperor always appreciated the
:04:43. > :04:47.loyalty that he was receiving from Franz Ferdinand which he had not
:04:48. > :04:53.received from his son. I suppose, in essence, the picture is of an
:04:54. > :05:00.Austro`Hungarian Empire that was trying to make sense of a huge area
:05:01. > :05:05.it controlled with so many people of different cultures, languages,
:05:06. > :05:11.religions and trying to do it in a way that was preindustrial, still
:05:12. > :05:18.based on the notion of divine right and hereditary principles. And it
:05:19. > :05:21.was time for that to go because Europe was industrializing and being
:05:22. > :05:27.swept by nationalism. You and your family were finished. And other
:05:28. > :05:31.principles like the ability to allow a multitude of languages and
:05:32. > :05:36.religions within its territory and to arrange for a possibility to live
:05:37. > :05:41.together in a positive way which is something that is not often put into
:05:42. > :05:53.perspective. I am thinking of the agreement of 1906 that was the first
:05:54. > :06:01.basis for living together when you are part of different ethnicities.
:06:02. > :06:07.If I may say so, the killer of Franz Ferdinand, if he were in the room
:06:08. > :06:12.and had the ability to join our conversation, he might have a
:06:13. > :06:17.different view of what your Habsburg Empire contributed to the people. He
:06:18. > :06:20.saw his people as being enslaved. But that is what makes the
:06:21. > :06:26.assassination so ridiculous. Franz Ferdinand with somebody who saw the
:06:27. > :06:30.problem of the time and the difficulty under which some of the
:06:31. > :06:37.Slavic people were living and he made the preparations that, once he
:06:38. > :06:40.division between the Hungarian side division between the Hungarian side
:06:41. > :06:44.and the German`speaking side but the Slavic people would also get their
:06:45. > :06:51.side with power of their own and because of that, he had to die
:06:52. > :06:55.because Serbia at the time was interested in being the supreme
:06:56. > :07:01.power over the Slavic people. He was in the way of allowing them to do
:07:02. > :07:05.this by giving the Slavic people more power which makes the
:07:06. > :07:11.assassination interesting. We will never know whether your
:07:12. > :07:17.grandfather, had he lived, would have developed this principle of
:07:18. > :07:20.freedom and tolerance. I can't leave the centenary of the First World War
:07:21. > :07:27.without asking you a direct question. Do you accept a sort of
:07:28. > :07:38.familial guilt for the role of your family in the run`up to war? A sort
:07:39. > :07:42.of responsibility? Of course, by all means. What you have to say when you
:07:43. > :07:48.look at the situation in Europe, all of it was ready for a conflict that
:07:49. > :07:55.was to be a small and regional conflict. Nobody thought of the
:07:56. > :08:01.perspective of the possibility of the war becoming huge. The
:08:02. > :08:07.responsibility is with everyone who shared power at the time which does
:08:08. > :08:14.not exclude my family. It does not. There is the phrase about the
:08:15. > :08:23.sleepwalkers, the leaders and their advisors who led us to war after the
:08:24. > :08:26.murder of Franz Ferdinand. This historian says they were blind to
:08:27. > :08:34.the horror they were about to unleash on the world. The Habsburg
:08:35. > :08:40.family were as blind as any others. I don't agree that they were as
:08:41. > :08:45.blind as the others. You can see many cases where the Emperor and
:08:46. > :08:48.then later my grandfather had a clear perspective on trying to get
:08:49. > :08:54.out of the horrors of the war but the responsibility is collective.
:08:55. > :09:00.That is why I think the question of guilt, when you come to that, it is
:09:01. > :09:08.wrong to point to a country or a person. After the First World War,
:09:09. > :09:13.in postwar Austria, there was this drunk feeling against the Habsburg
:09:14. > :09:23.family and a desire to and make sure that they never reimposed authority
:09:24. > :09:31.`` angry feeling. Your family was banished. That was understandable
:09:32. > :09:38.wasn't it? Yes and no. It was understandable for certain people
:09:39. > :09:40.who were having the correct ideological background to try to
:09:41. > :09:49.make sure that my family would not come back. I would like to point to
:09:50. > :09:52.the fact that my grandfather was being asked to withdraw from
:09:53. > :09:56.political activities and was being guaranteed that there would be a
:09:57. > :10:01.referendum on how the state would continue. What's my grandfather
:10:02. > :10:05.withdrew from the political field, he was not held under the referendum
:10:06. > :10:14.because he was afraid that it would go in favour of my family. It makes
:10:15. > :10:19.it clear that this was not a general feeling against my family. Many
:10:20. > :10:22.people were loyal to my family but to political institutions wanted to
:10:23. > :10:29.make sure that they were really out of the way. Many of your relatives
:10:30. > :10:41.live all across the world. They still do today. At your own father
:10:42. > :10:41.`` but, was always committed to Europe. While he could not live in
:10:42. > :10:50.Austria for a good amount of his life, he lived in Germany and served
:10:51. > :10:53.in the European Parliament there. He seems to believe that there was
:10:54. > :10:58.something about the Habsburg experience and the notion of Europe
:10:59. > :11:03.that he could translate into modern form through the European Union, a
:11:04. > :11:09.pan`European idealism. Can you explain that for me? My father was
:11:10. > :11:15.always a passionate European, even as a very young man after the time
:11:16. > :11:21.of the First World War. He got engaged and started the pan`European
:11:22. > :11:27.movement. He wanted a united Europe. It became clear to a large
:11:28. > :11:31.group of people, amongst them my father, that only a united Europe
:11:32. > :11:35.would be able to ensure that the horrors of the First World War would
:11:36. > :11:43.not happen again. But in between the first two world wars, were not able
:11:44. > :11:48.to push the idea through. For my father, one of the determining
:11:49. > :11:58.factors was the principal of the monarchy, it comes in a expression
:11:59. > :12:06.that cannot be translated which talks about the principle of
:12:07. > :12:10.solidarity. It came out of the Austro`Hungarian monarchy with all
:12:11. > :12:17.of its different nationalities, ethnicities and religions... Just
:12:18. > :12:20.think of the national anthem. There were 12 official language versions
:12:21. > :12:25.and I don't know how many nonofficial ones. Just imagine other
:12:26. > :12:29.countries. If someone would have suggested at the time that their
:12:30. > :12:34.national anthem would be sung in another language. It would have been
:12:35. > :12:40.impossible but it was the spirit of the Austro`Hungarian Empire to keep
:12:41. > :12:45.the cultures and to push them. Even in the military, this was the case.
:12:46. > :13:00.You had the Catholic priesthood would go along with
:13:01. > :13:00.are saying is fascinating but I'm going to interrupt you because it
:13:01. > :13:07.seems that you have, you have equated the
:13:08. > :13:15.Habsburg notion as being beyond nationalism with a European notion
:13:16. > :13:23.of an entity beyond nationalism but the problem is, in both instances,
:13:24. > :13:25.it doesn't relate to democracy. It lacks legitimacy amongst the people
:13:26. > :13:33.of Europe and that is perhaps what we see today. The idea of an ever
:13:34. > :13:36.closer union, the European Union gradually superseding the
:13:37. > :13:45.nationstates of Europe and it doesn't seem to appeal to people
:13:46. > :13:47.across Europe. I disagree. If you look at the Austro`Hungarian
:13:48. > :13:52.monarchy which was one of the first countries where a lot of the
:13:53. > :14:03.Democratic infidels, and I am not including England in this example ``
:14:04. > :14:07.principles, it was there that a lot of the principles were put into
:14:08. > :14:12.place first. This element was certainly there. The legitimacy of
:14:13. > :14:17.all the different people with very strong. This is where the point of
:14:18. > :14:24.nationalism came in and I am sorry, I am always coming back to it but
:14:25. > :14:29.that is the line that comes all the way towards the most recent European
:14:30. > :14:36.elections. You can see the changes that can take place and sweep away
:14:37. > :14:42.the guiding principles that we are experiencing. You have stolen my
:14:43. > :14:46.thunder. I was about to raise the challenge to you that seems to lie
:14:47. > :14:54.in the most recent European election results, not least in your own home
:14:55. > :15:01.country of Austria where a fifth of the vote went to a party which is
:15:02. > :15:04.regarded as extreme far right. The same thing happened in France and in
:15:05. > :15:13.many different countries across Europe. There is an insularity and a
:15:14. > :15:16.return to nationalism across Europe which, for all of the idealism of
:15:17. > :15:20.your family through the past century, seems to be a default for
:15:21. > :15:31.European people. I think you're right, we saw it in
:15:32. > :15:37.the last European elections and a strong way, but it is fascinating to
:15:38. > :15:41.see that, I think in most countries, on a normal democratic basis, we are
:15:42. > :15:43.capable of dealing with that problem. There is a certain
:15:44. > :15:49.percentage there, and we should be able to deal with it. It is very
:15:50. > :15:53.painful, I think, to see the Nationalist movements rising again,
:15:54. > :15:59.they are riding on the wave of very few topics. They are riding on the
:16:00. > :16:03.wave of immigration, foreign cultures being strong in their own
:16:04. > :16:06.country, these are the typical topics that these movements are
:16:07. > :16:11.riding on. They don't have a broad political programme. They only have
:16:12. > :16:17.a programme in specific topics, these are topics that will keep us
:16:18. > :16:22.busy for the next century. I don't think they will go away, definitely
:16:23. > :16:25.not in the way that they held different nationalistic movements
:16:26. > :16:28.that will deal with them, by building up strong borders, getting
:16:29. > :16:32.rid of minorities, not letting people in the country, that is not
:16:33. > :16:36.how it works, not how Europe works, and not how it worked in the past.
:16:37. > :16:41.You could argue the trajectory of Europe right now is in that
:16:42. > :16:46.direction. In the more insular, nationalist direction. After the
:16:47. > :16:49.Second World War, it took us through the expansion and development and
:16:50. > :16:55.the deepening of the European Union, but that deepening process seems to
:16:56. > :16:59.have hit a dead end. If we look at it in a historic perspective, of
:17:00. > :17:03.course, we have to say, what was the basis of the European Union in the
:17:04. > :17:08.beginning? That was after the Second World War. This was when, let's
:17:09. > :17:11.say, the horrors of nationalism was still much more present on
:17:12. > :17:15.everyone's mind, because they all had experienced what can happen
:17:16. > :17:20.through this kind of movement. Most people had experienced that, and
:17:21. > :17:23.they are not around any more or in later call or important positions,
:17:24. > :17:28.the expense of what nationalism can do is in most parts of Europe is not
:17:29. > :17:34.present. Not here, here it is very present. Exactly. It is. Memories
:17:35. > :17:38.are very real, it is at the top of peoples minds. It is the suffering
:17:39. > :17:51.that civilians went through, just 20 years ago. Yet, right here and right
:17:52. > :17:59.now, in, we see a country that is divided on nationalist lines. `` in
:18:00. > :18:04.Bosnia`Herzegovina. We have someone saying that recently the haters
:18:05. > :18:09.worst album was before the war, it isn't getting better. `` the hate is
:18:10. > :18:14.worse now. Where does your optimism about Europe fit in with that? I
:18:15. > :18:17.wish, when I look at the situation in Bosnia, that the European Union,
:18:18. > :18:23.for example, although international community would act more decisively.
:18:24. > :18:26.We have certain principles that we are generally upholding. These are
:18:27. > :18:32.human rights, democratic principles. These principles that
:18:33. > :18:35.should also be applied to state, like Bosnia`Herzegovina. We apply
:18:36. > :18:41.them to a lot of other states, with some success. If we look at Kosovo,
:18:42. > :18:46.it isn't a great success story, but we had a lot of successes. It was
:18:47. > :18:50.when the European Union was acting with more decisiveness in that
:18:51. > :18:54.question, by saying you have the support of the union, but you have
:18:55. > :18:59.to fulfil certain principles. That means accepting certain regional
:19:00. > :19:03.rules, as they are actually happening here. I know, for example,
:19:04. > :19:06.that when there are events happening, where the European Union
:19:07. > :19:11.is inviting the Bosnians to participate, they are sending out
:19:12. > :19:15.invitations to different entities. But does not work. They should send
:19:16. > :19:19.out just want to the president, and he can decide how it is happening in
:19:20. > :19:23.the country. The European Union has showed weakness when it comes to
:19:24. > :19:26.this country which is a pity. That is a message to Europe's current
:19:27. > :19:30.leaders. I want a message to Europe's current leaders. I wonder
:19:31. > :19:33.how fearful you offer Europe today? Particularly considering, for
:19:34. > :19:41.example, the assertiveness of Putin' Russia. It is a question of
:19:42. > :19:45.which perspective you are taking. If the basic idea was to create an area
:19:46. > :19:49.of peace, bringing the traditional enemies, in this case after the
:19:50. > :19:53.Second World War, Germany and France together, by creating a united
:19:54. > :19:57.Europe, I am optimistic and positive about it. The problem is most people
:19:58. > :20:02.take an economic perspective of it, and the economy is not the best one.
:20:03. > :20:06.You can see a lot of flaws, and in the union, critically, in many
:20:07. > :20:09.aspects of it. I do not see breaking. I don't see it
:20:10. > :20:13.disappearing. That is why I am thinking that the European Union is
:20:14. > :20:19.definitely a project for the ball game, even with difficulties that
:20:20. > :20:23.are happening. It is a project for the long ball game. I want to bring
:20:24. > :20:29.it back to the personal. You sit here and Sarajevo with a bottle at
:20:30. > :20:33.your relative behind you. `` with a model. It is an epitome of the old
:20:34. > :20:40.European aristocracy, if Wogan isn't to say, blue loaded royalty. `` if
:20:41. > :20:47.one isn't to save, blue blooded royalty. You argue you have left
:20:48. > :20:49.your values behind `` say. You are still involved in the Hapsberg
:20:50. > :20:54.foundation. I looked at your website, you save" we must stand
:20:55. > :21:03.together for our birthright and fight the present `` preservation of
:21:04. > :21:07.our old ways". Europe has moved on. I want cultural heritage,
:21:08. > :21:12.preservation of our culture, as a multitude of the possibility to
:21:13. > :21:15.develop individually. That is what I am personally staying for. You are
:21:16. > :21:21.still fighting, if I may so`so, your family is fighting for property and
:21:22. > :21:35.restitution of assets, with enjoy the world that has come off
:21:36. > :21:40.the backs of others, and it is time to move on and not claim
:21:41. > :21:43.rightfully yours. If you have properly read, you may see that I
:21:44. > :21:47.have never been involved in that. Some relatives of mine have been
:21:48. > :21:54.involved in what was private property. That is, by far, not as
:21:55. > :21:57.much as you may be putting here. They make a clear definition of what
:21:58. > :22:01.is private property and what was state property used by the family,
:22:02. > :22:07.because the family wealth, actually, came from the husband of a relative
:22:08. > :22:11.who brought in private property. That is where it comes from. They
:22:12. > :22:15.say it has been taken away from us unlawfully, they are fighting for
:22:16. > :22:19.it, OK, that's fine. That's not me, I'm interested in certain political
:22:20. > :22:23.perspectives, a pan`European perspective, it is very modern to
:22:24. > :22:30.say that we have a pis project here, and experience tells us that
:22:31. > :22:37.is something it is worth fighting for `` a pis project here. It is
:22:38. > :22:43.based on traditional values, `` peace. . I am
:22:44. > :22:53.. I am involved in both feats on the ground when we are talking about
:22:54. > :23:01.politics. 100 years on from the great War and the slaughter. Are you
:23:02. > :23:08.confident that you know how to ensure that that sort of conflict or
:23:09. > :23:12.configuration never happens again? They are two expressions that are
:23:13. > :23:16.not expressions that should be used in politics, those expressions
:23:17. > :23:21.probably come from the realm of religion. These are things that
:23:22. > :23:25.don't happen. I am convinced that when we talk about democracy and
:23:26. > :23:30.human rights, these kinds of values are values that we have to fight for
:23:31. > :23:34.every day to keep them. They are an expression of the civilisation we
:23:35. > :23:40.are having. They are not coming to human nature. We have had to fight
:23:41. > :23:45.in the freedom that we are living, in the liberty and world that we
:23:46. > :23:52.have in Europe. That is something we have to fight for every day. ``
:23:53. > :23:56.wealth. I am not dwelling on it, but it is something worth fighting for.
:23:57. > :23:58.Karl von Habsburg, we have to end there, but thank you very much for
:23:59. > :24:40.being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Some of us had a lovely weekend with
:24:41. > :24:42.a good deal of sunshine, others, particularly Scotland and Northern
:24:43. > :24:45.Ireland, had wind. There was some heavy rain around. Settling down
:24:46. > :24:49.through the day today, most places will be fine and dry with good
:24:50. > :24:51.spells of sunshine, it is not completely a dry story, there will