:00:00. > :00:07.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:08. > :00:13.Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi. Nearly 50 African heads of
:00:14. > :00:16.state, along with business leaders, diplomats, and activists, have
:00:17. > :00:19.gathered here in Washington for what is being billed as the biggest`ever
:00:20. > :00:27.engagement between the White House and Africa. When Barack Obama came
:00:28. > :00:30.to power as the first African`American President, many
:00:31. > :00:41.believed it would help Washington recalibrate its policy towards
:00:42. > :00:45.Africa. In fact, Obama only made his first tour of African countries last
:00:46. > :00:48.year, after winning his second term. This summit is aimed at boosting
:00:49. > :00:52.investment and trade between the two. But many argue it may only be a
:00:53. > :00:57.photo opportunity. My guest today is the US Secretary of State, John
:00:58. > :01:00.Kerry. He talks Washington's policy towards Africa, and also looks at
:01:01. > :01:20.the conflict in Gaza between Israel and Hamas.
:01:21. > :01:30.Secretary of State John Kerry, welcome to HARDtalk. Glad to be with
:01:31. > :01:33.you. Scott Eisner from the US Chamber of Commerce has said that he
:01:34. > :01:36.and others have been pressing the Obama administration for years to
:01:37. > :01:40.hold this kind of summit. To quote, he says if you want CEOs to pay
:01:41. > :01:45.attention, they need the Commander in Chief to take charge. What took
:01:46. > :01:48.President Obama so long? Well actually, this is something the
:01:49. > :01:52.President has wanted to do for a long period of time, and I think we
:01:53. > :01:54.have been working up to it. The President announced Power Africa,
:01:55. > :02:00.early on in his administration, to help provide electricity to all of
:02:01. > :02:12.Africa over the next few years. He announced a major food security
:02:13. > :02:16.initiative Feed The Future. He has been working on that. The President
:02:17. > :02:19.has grown our ability to be able to do what we have been doing in the
:02:20. > :02:24.health sector. So he has been building up to this. But I think
:02:25. > :02:27.there was a sense of ripeness that brought this moment about. I have
:02:28. > :02:33.been in this for a long period of time. In fact, the minute I became
:02:34. > :02:35.Secretary of State, I appointed Russ Feingold as Special Envoy, the
:02:36. > :02:39.leading expert of the United States Senate, to become our Special Envoy
:02:40. > :02:42.to go to the Great Lakes, to try and work with the Democratic Republic of
:02:43. > :02:45.Congo. I personally went to Sudan. So I don't think we're late. It's
:02:46. > :02:50.just that President Obama himself is the son of a Kenyan, and it took him
:02:51. > :02:53.quite awhile to travel to Africa for instance, and hold a summit. Yes,
:02:54. > :02:56.but I think if you look at the President, from the moment he became
:02:57. > :02:59.President, we had a meltdown of our financial system. People have
:03:00. > :03:01.forgotten, when he came in, job number one was providing jobs for
:03:02. > :03:05.Americans, and getting our own economy moving. Now it is moving,
:03:06. > :03:07.and we are growing, and the President is looking outwards. OK,
:03:08. > :03:11.Ben Rhodes, the Deputy National Security Advisor in the White House,
:03:12. > :03:17.has said as far as this Africa`US summit is concerned, the US bring
:03:18. > :03:21.something unique to the table. What is it that the United States can
:03:22. > :03:24.offer in terms of African policy that other nations cannot? Well,
:03:25. > :03:26.first of all I think there is no country that is as entrepreneurial,
:03:27. > :03:33.and combine science and technology and innovation in the way that we
:03:34. > :03:40.do. Our country I believe is really unique in that regard, and many of
:03:41. > :03:43.them are already involved in Africa. I mean, we have a company like
:03:44. > :03:46.General Electric, for years, has been doing business in Africa. We
:03:47. > :03:56.have Dow Chemical, for years it has been growing in Africa. They have a
:03:57. > :03:59.huge number of projects going. So we have experience, and we don't come
:04:00. > :04:03.into a place, as some countries do, with a simple deal, and simple
:04:04. > :04:06.finance, and to bring our workers in or something else. Which countries
:04:07. > :04:09.are you thinking of in particular? Is that China, in brackets? What I
:04:10. > :04:12.am saying is that we come in, I think, with a willingness to work in
:04:13. > :04:15.ways that train employees, build something, and increasingly, people
:04:16. > :04:24.are looking at the downstream investment impacts for the long`term
:04:25. > :04:28.here. Look, these things evolve. Nothing happens overnight. But over
:04:29. > :04:30.the course of time, I think the US brings a remarkable set of
:04:31. > :04:36.disciplines, and of capacity and technology, for transfer, that is
:04:37. > :04:38.critical to Africa at this point. But critics like Jennifer Cooke,
:04:39. > :04:42.director of the CSIS Africa Program, she says that there are other global
:04:43. > :04:44.competitors. And of course, China, for instance, to take one statistic,
:04:45. > :04:55.just has 150 commercial attaches across sub`Saharan Africa. The US
:04:56. > :04:58.has eight. We are not ` I think there is a difference in approaches
:04:59. > :05:01.between China and the United States. We are still the biggest investor in
:05:02. > :05:05.Africa. And I am convinced that out of this conference will come even
:05:06. > :05:08.more significant investment. We had a dinner last night with four
:05:09. > :05:10.presidents of various ` four heads of government, presidents of various
:05:11. > :05:14.governments, all of whom were extremely excited by what they heard
:05:15. > :05:20.about the kind of partnership that was offered by the United States.
:05:21. > :05:23.Where it is not just extractive, and selling one particular kind of deal,
:05:24. > :05:26.but it is really structured and built around the needs of a
:05:27. > :05:29.particular country, and has a much greater ability to be able to train
:05:30. > :05:31.workers, provide workers with ongoing skills, and the longer term
:05:32. > :05:33.employment capacity, which is very different from what other countries
:05:34. > :05:45.and other companies do. You say that the United States,
:05:46. > :05:49.unlike other countries, does not rely on natural resources, you do. I
:05:50. > :05:56.know we do, but not only... So what is the difference? We are looking
:05:57. > :05:58.beyond that. We also have extractive, and much of the
:05:59. > :06:06.relationship until recently was defined by that. Our desire is to
:06:07. > :06:09.move it well beyond that, and... What are the reasons for that?
:06:10. > :06:12.Because we have listened to the people in Africa. And because we
:06:13. > :06:15.hear from people in Africa that they want more than just that. They don't
:06:16. > :06:18.want this relationship in which they are simply exporting oil and gas or
:06:19. > :06:25.minerals of one kind or another. They want to build their countries.
:06:26. > :06:27.Is that the reason... And we respect that and understand that because it
:06:28. > :06:29.is critical to building civil society, respecting human rights, to
:06:30. > :06:36.developing democracy, and ultimately, to being able to provide
:06:37. > :06:39.stability. May I venture that there is another reason why perhaps you
:06:40. > :06:42.are changing tack. Because of the shale revolution in the United
:06:43. > :06:46.States, it means you no longer need Africa's oil. If you just look at
:06:47. > :06:49.the figures, Secretary of State, 2008, $100 billion of oil imports
:06:50. > :06:58.came to Africa from the United States. On current trends, it will
:06:59. > :07:19.be just 15... If your theory were correct, we would not have to do
:07:20. > :07:22.anything. We could just sit back and say, terrific, let's keep doing what
:07:23. > :07:26.were doing. No. It doesn't work. If all we wanted was the extraction and
:07:27. > :07:28.now we don't need it, then why aren't we turning away and going
:07:29. > :07:32.something else? Because we have long had an engagement with Africa which
:07:33. > :07:34.is in fact different than other people. We are the country that put
:07:35. > :07:37.the PEPFAR initiative. PEPFAR Was George Bush's. It came from the
:07:38. > :07:41.United States Senate. President Bush took it, yes. And we are proud of
:07:42. > :07:45.it. And President Bush should be proud of it. We are all proud of it.
:07:46. > :07:48.We also, the idea of Our Africa. That is an important effort that
:07:49. > :07:52.will help change lives in Africa. But if you look at... I don't think
:07:53. > :07:55.any country has tried to do as much as we do to help people build their
:07:56. > :07:58.own indigenous abilities to be able to fight terrorism, and to build
:07:59. > :08:01.their future. I'll give you another example. The African Great
:08:02. > :08:04.Opportunity Act, signed by President Bill Clinton, and that allows... I'm
:08:05. > :08:06.proud we helped write it in the United States Senate. It allows
:08:07. > :08:10.African goods to come duty`free into the United States. But you know
:08:11. > :08:13.what? 86% of those products that come into the US are petroleum
:08:14. > :08:16.products. So I just use that as an example to say that actually the
:08:17. > :08:19.United States is not, maybe, different from other countries.
:08:20. > :08:22.Well, let you give you an example. I don't want to spend this valuable
:08:23. > :08:29.time having a debate with you about how different we are. Let me give
:08:30. > :08:34.you an example. Ford Motor Company invested $300 million in South
:08:35. > :08:37.Africa. And it can export those engines from skilled workers in
:08:38. > :08:40.South Africa, who now have jobs, to other parts of the world. And as a
:08:41. > :08:44.result, 800 jobs were also created. I think in Kansas, where they have a
:08:45. > :08:48.plant. So there is a symmetry in all of this. It is not just extractive,
:08:49. > :08:50.and increasingly ` last night, we had a big healthcare company, Kirk
:08:51. > :08:53.Pharmaceuticals, a pharmaceutical company, they want to be able to
:08:54. > :08:56.bring lower cost medicine and vaccines and other things to Africa,
:08:57. > :09:05.which will improve the quality of life. That is not extractive. For
:09:06. > :09:08.sure, you do invest in Africa. Let me tell you what Aly`Kan Satchu, the
:09:09. > :09:11.Chief Executive of Rich Management Nairobi, that has been approved by
:09:12. > :09:18.the Nairobi Securities Exchange as an advisory service. He says look at
:09:19. > :09:22.Kenya. America is already heavily invested. We issued a Eurobond in
:09:23. > :09:40.Kenya where we borrowed $2 billion. 66% of that was bought by North
:09:41. > :09:43.America. You see that North America is putting the capital down, as you
:09:44. > :09:47.say, and Africa is then using it to build the structure. The irony is
:09:48. > :09:49.that most of this stuff is being built by Chinese contractors, and
:09:50. > :09:52.not the Americans. You're putting down the investment income, and
:09:53. > :09:56.someone else is picking it up. Well, that's life. It also shows we are
:09:57. > :10:01.not in it just to have our own contractors come over. We are doing
:10:02. > :10:04.this because we know it's the right thing for Africa. And indeed, other
:10:05. > :10:07.countries and other companies will benefit. More power to them.
:10:08. > :10:10.Ultimately, this is good for Africa, and it's good for these countries to
:10:11. > :10:15.have the stability and the capacity as they build. We will all benefit
:10:16. > :10:18.from that, on a global basis. There will be less Boko Harams, less
:10:19. > :10:21.Al`Shabaabs, there will be less cause for people to have their minds
:10:22. > :10:26.filled with extremist ideology, rather than to engage in the broader
:10:27. > :10:35.benefits of society. And we're interested in that, and I am glad we
:10:36. > :10:38.are, as a country. Looking at this infrastructure point, when you say
:10:39. > :10:41.you aren't just in it for the infrastructure projects. China have
:10:42. > :10:53.been doing a great deal of that. China have taken over from the US in
:10:54. > :10:56.trade with Africa, over $200 billion. Trade, but not invest. We
:10:57. > :10:59.are the biggest investor. Yes. What does it tell you? That the Chinese
:11:00. > :11:07.are just interested in infrastructure. How many Chinese
:11:08. > :11:11.come to do the work? They understand there has been a backlash. The
:11:12. > :11:15.African Union headquarters in Addis Ababa built to the tune of $200
:11:16. > :11:23.million by the Chinese as a gift to Africa. It is not just constructive
:11:24. > :11:30.diplomacy, it is construction. That is terrific. We welcome China. It is
:11:31. > :11:36.not a zero`sum game. People need to understand that. There will be many
:11:37. > :11:40.countries investing. Many people will be engaged in this. That is the
:11:41. > :11:46.nature of the competitive, globalised world we live in today.
:11:47. > :11:49.The important thing is to try to make sure that Africa develops in
:11:50. > :11:51.ways that don't make some of the mistakes we did. I am speaking
:11:52. > :11:56.specifically about energy and climate change and so forth. There
:11:57. > :11:59.are things we can do to help. And other countries matter too. They
:12:00. > :12:03.will benefit Africa, which is long overdue, with these kind of benefits
:12:04. > :12:10.and inputs from the rest of the world. It is to everybody's benefit,
:12:11. > :12:15.frankly. You and Michael Froman, the US Trade Representative, wish to
:12:16. > :12:21.emphasise production in Africa. There is a pool of young people who
:12:22. > :12:25.could provide a labour force. Does the US see Africa as the factory of
:12:26. > :12:28.the world for the future to replace China? Not at the expense of cheap
:12:29. > :12:31.labour and lack of rights and lack of working conditions and other
:12:32. > :12:38.things that are important, that they raise the standards. Again, it is
:12:39. > :12:44.something I think the US has helped drive. In many parts of the world. I
:12:45. > :12:47.have been to Vietnam, China, I have been to places, into American plants
:12:48. > :12:50.in those places and if you did not know you were in China or Vietnam,
:12:51. > :12:54.you would have thought you had walked into a plant in Michigan or
:12:55. > :12:58.somewhere else in America. It is clean. People are working. There is
:12:59. > :13:01.a structure to it. Those are the kinds of benefits that flow out of
:13:02. > :13:05.this kind of investment initiative and relationship and I think it's to
:13:06. > :13:10.the benefit of the people who work there. Create jobs in Africa to the
:13:11. > :13:14.detriment of the United States. President Obama says he is president
:13:15. > :13:19.of the US, not Africa. How will that go down? When Ford invest $300
:13:20. > :13:23.million in South Africa and you have 800 employees in the US who get jobs
:13:24. > :13:31.because of that, because of the downstream supply structure, that is
:13:32. > :13:38.to our benefit. We live in a different world today. No country
:13:39. > :13:41.can survive as an island. You can't shut yourself off and have your own
:13:42. > :13:44.production and sales routine to yourself and believe that you are
:13:45. > :13:48.going to grow or get better or provide higher incomes for your
:13:49. > :13:51.people. You can't do it. We need to move to various parts of the world
:13:52. > :13:53.where people are desperately wanting modernity, where they want
:13:54. > :13:56.electricity in their home, they want better food, they want clothing,
:13:57. > :13:58.they want themselves to buy and share, they want to become
:13:59. > :14:05.middle`class and then hopefully go on and make a lot of money
:14:06. > :14:08.themselves. But that's what we are trying to engage in here ` global
:14:09. > :14:11.growth from which everyone benefits, and I think what we are doing is
:14:12. > :14:19.frankly good diplomacy as well as good economics. The Ambassador to
:14:20. > :14:22.Washington says this Africa summit with the US gives Obama an
:14:23. > :14:33.opportunity at the end of his term for people to see a clearly defined
:14:34. > :14:35.legacy. What will that be? The legacy clearly will be this
:14:36. > :14:38.remarkable growth and development that takes place in Africa and
:14:39. > :14:41.begins to benefit the world, begins to bring people together and offer
:14:42. > :14:52.an alternative to some of the poverty and extremism that fills the
:14:53. > :14:55.vacuum. That is one thing. Beyond that, the President's legacy won't
:14:56. > :15:05.be defined by one specific initiative. This President has
:15:06. > :15:19.passed healthcare for all Americans. The President who saved the economy
:15:20. > :15:21.at a time when it was in crisis. Who has created... There are a series of
:15:22. > :15:25.things in counterterrorism and other things. Not defined by one thing. It
:15:26. > :15:28.will add to that, sure. Inevitably, the focus has been on the Africa`US
:15:29. > :15:31.summit, but you have committed time to talking on the situation in Gaza.
:15:32. > :15:34.If you look at the situation, close on 2000 Palestinians have been
:15:35. > :15:44.killed, around 70 Israelis, a handful of them civilians, but most
:15:45. > :15:46.of them soldiers. You've got 8000 injured people, houses reduced to
:15:47. > :15:49.rubble, 40,000 homes reduced to rubble, damage of about $6 billion.
:15:50. > :15:53.There is a great deal of outrage amongst political and international
:15:54. > :15:56.public opinion. Your own State Department described one attack as
:15:57. > :16:02.disgraceful. The question is, does Washington fully support Israel in
:16:03. > :16:06.its offensive in Gaza? Fully support? We fully support Israel's
:16:07. > :16:10.right to defend itself and the fact it was under attack by rockets, by
:16:11. > :16:14.tunnels, and it had to take action against Hamas. Hamas has behaved in
:16:15. > :16:17.the most unbelievably shocking manner of engaging in this activity
:16:18. > :16:20.and, yes, there has been horrible collateral damage as a result of
:16:21. > :16:23.that, which is why the US work very hard with our partners in the
:16:24. > :16:26.region, with Israel, with Egyptians, with the Palestinian Authority, with
:16:27. > :16:32.President Abbas, to move towards a ceasefire. Finally that ceasefire is
:16:33. > :16:36.hopefully in place in a way that can allow parties to come to the table
:16:37. > :16:39.and be able to not only deal with the question of how to have a
:16:40. > :16:42.sustainable ceasefire, but the more critical, underlying, long`term
:16:43. > :16:59.issue of how we are going to make peace. How we are going to eliminate
:17:00. > :17:06.these rockets and demilitarise and move towards a different future.
:17:07. > :17:08.That is our goal. This is an important beginning with the
:17:09. > :17:15.ceasefire and hopefully the talks to get there. The Palestinians, not
:17:16. > :17:27.just Hamas, but President Abbas, they say you have to lift the
:17:28. > :17:33.blockade, the siege. There has to be a giving on both sides with respect
:17:34. > :17:37.to these issues. You have to begin to make life better for the
:17:38. > :17:42.Palestinians. We made that very clear in the ceasefire announcement
:17:43. > :17:45.that we had a few days ago. It did not hold, unfortunately. Now, we
:17:46. > :17:50.hope this will hold. Perhaps because Israel is drawing down and pulling
:17:51. > :17:55.people out. It has finished its tunnel work. There will be a greater
:17:56. > :17:58.space here. What we want to do is support the Palestinians and their
:17:59. > :18:01.desire to improve their lives and to be able to open crossings and get
:18:02. > :18:09.food in and reconstruct and have greater freedom. But, that has to
:18:10. > :18:11.come with a greater responsibility towards Israel, which means giving
:18:12. > :18:19.up rockets, moving into a different place. Where will that finally come
:18:20. > :18:22.together? It will come together when you have a bigger, broader approach
:18:23. > :18:25.to the solution of the underlying issues of two states of people who
:18:26. > :18:28.will be able to have rights protected because they will be
:18:29. > :18:31.respected in the context of those two states, which have security for
:18:32. > :18:43.Israel, guarantees for a better life and for greater freedoms for the
:18:44. > :18:49.Palestinians. That's the formula. You must see the outrage
:18:50. > :18:52.internationally. Obviously, the US provide Israel with $3 billion
:18:53. > :18:57.annually in military expenditure. Iron Dome is funded by the US.
:18:58. > :18:59.Critics say, this is the US somehow facilitating the collateral damage
:19:00. > :19:07.that you mention, that is, nearly 2000 civilians... The US stands
:19:08. > :19:10.behind Israel's right to defend itself and we do not believe it is
:19:11. > :19:12.appropriate for any group, particularly in the circumstances
:19:13. > :19:15.that we have seen, this terrorist group, Hamas, to be flying rockets
:19:16. > :19:27.against civilians randomly into the country. Tunnels coming underneath
:19:28. > :19:30.in kibbutz, people we have seen discovered with handcuffs and
:19:31. > :19:38.tranquilliser drugs ready to capture people in the midst of their daily
:19:39. > :19:40.lives. No country can live with that condition and the US stands squarely
:19:41. > :19:47.behind Israel's right to defend itself in those circumstances,
:19:48. > :19:52.period. Are you disappointed there has not been any kind of real
:19:53. > :19:55.settlement? We are working on it. I believe in those possibilities and I
:19:56. > :19:57.believe in this situation that has evolved now, perhaps it will
:19:58. > :20:01.concentrate people's minds on the need to get back to the broader
:20:02. > :20:08.negotiations and try to resolve the issues of the two states. The US
:20:09. > :20:13.remains deeply committed to helping to make that happen. It has to
:20:14. > :20:17.happen. It's not gonna happen through terrorism. It will happen
:20:18. > :20:19.through negotiation. It will happen through the appropriate leadership
:20:20. > :20:27.of President Abbas and through the willingness of others to sit at the
:20:28. > :20:30.table and negotiate. Secretary of State John Kerry, thank you very
:20:31. > :21:05.much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:21:06. > :21:12.Thank you for joining me and tuning in to our extended nightly
:21:13. > :21:20.forecast. We will look into the trends well into the next week. Let
:21:21. > :21:22.us talk about the here and now. Wednesday was not such a bad day
:21:23. > :21:23.across the country, at