:00:00. > :00:16.argument in a bar. Now, it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:17. > :00:18.Welcome to the programme. It is the 25th anniversary this year of the
:00:19. > :00:26.Tiananmen Square massacre in Beijing, which saw hundreds killed
:00:27. > :00:31.and many more detained. One award`winning British`Chinese writer
:00:32. > :00:38.and filmmaker was a teenager at the time. Decades earlier, during the
:00:39. > :00:42.Cultural Revolution, Xiaolu Guo 's fisherman father had spent more than
:00:43. > :00:47.ten years in correctional labour camps for painting a picture that
:00:48. > :01:12.had angered the Chinese authorities. What should the role of the artist
:01:13. > :01:19.or writer be in China today? Welcome to HARDtalk. You say that
:01:20. > :01:25.art should have social responsibility. What do you mean by
:01:26. > :01:29.that? It is about the power of the public intellectual and the role of
:01:30. > :01:34.the political artist, especially for a writer and filmmaker like me
:01:35. > :01:42.coming from the East and living in Western Europe. I think our
:01:43. > :01:45.education keeps returning me to the subject of how literature and cinema
:01:46. > :01:50.should communicate. And in this discussion in the west, it is
:01:51. > :01:52.something a bit ambiguous because an artist should remain sober and
:01:53. > :01:59.independent from ontological discussion. But in my case, I was
:02:00. > :02:02.always there on the front. If you look at Charles Dickens, for
:02:03. > :02:08.instance, he wrote about the urban middle class in England. But his
:02:09. > :02:13.writing also had a social message. He was part of the contemporary
:02:14. > :02:16.debate then about social reforms. There is a long and venerable
:02:17. > :02:22.tradition of that kind of writing. Is that how you see yourself in that
:02:23. > :02:26.genre? Not entirely because I think Charles Dickens is really... The
:02:27. > :02:32.traditional drama, the narrative, is very tense. You really follow his
:02:33. > :02:37.narrative thread. But I guess that for a writer like me coming from the
:02:38. > :02:43.East, perhaps the drama part is quite light. There is so much in the
:02:44. > :02:47.political background and the cultural message that is not easy to
:02:48. > :02:50.transfer to the West. And when you use double language, bilingual
:02:51. > :02:54.writing, sometimes I write in English and sometimes in Chinese,
:02:55. > :02:58.there is a certain interpretation and I have to bridge this cultural
:02:59. > 3:54:49difference. It is quite complex for me. One of your characters in your
3:54:50 > 3:54:49new book, I am China, which was timed to coincide with the 25th
3:54:50 > 3:54:49anniversary of Tiananmen Square, has the story of a punk musician who
3:54:50 > 3:54:49protested Tiananmen Square and then seeks asylum in the West. Do you
3:54:50 > 3:54:49believe that Chinese writers like yourself should be a voice of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49protest when you say there is no art without political commitment? And
3:54:50 > 3:54:49very connected to this punk minuted character `` musician character.
3:54:50 > 3:54:49There is another woman in the book who believes life should be beyond
3:54:50 > 3:54:49political struggle in life is bigger than everything else. His character
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is inspired from a kind of Asian political fighter combined with a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49kind of ironic colour, like Johnny Rotten, and there is a kind of... I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49wanted to discuss the punk movement and how much power punk really had
3:54:50 > 3:54:49in history and did it work in history? Looking at it in general
3:54:50 > 3:54:49terms or through your book, do you believe that the role of the Chinese
3:54:50 > 3:54:49writer should be a voice of protest, should be a voice of dissent? The
3:54:50 > 3:54:49acclaimed Chinese artist I way way has said, and of course, he has had
3:54:50 > 3:54:49trouble with the authorities, he says: Chinese artist must absolutely
3:54:50 > 3:54:49see it as their duty to dissent. Do you agree? I think I do agree that
3:54:50 > 3:54:49artists should not live like a political martyr. An artist should
3:54:50 > 3:54:49not give up their life for an ideological struggle. What is more
3:54:50 > 3:54:49important is if you can remain as a sober artist and keep a distance
3:54:50 > 3:54:49from the heated political engagement, you have much more space
3:54:50 > 3:54:49later on to defend certain ideas. If you die on the spot, you are gone
3:54:50 > 3:54:49and there is no more voice. When Mo Yan, the Chinese writer, received
3:54:50 > 3:54:49the Nobel Prize in literature in 2011 and people criticise that
3:54:50 > 3:54:49because many felt he was too close to the Chinese state, you defended
3:54:50 > 3:54:49him. Yes. It was a great discussion at the time, when Mo Yan received
3:54:50 > 3:54:49the prize after Liu Xiaobo received the peace prize earlier that year, I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49love his work and sometimes a Chinese state artist might not be as
3:54:50 > 3:54:49good as those from a Western... You do not agree when he says Chinese
3:54:50 > 3:54:49artists have a duty to dissent. I think there is a difference between
3:54:50 > 3:54:49his `` because Mo Yan 's work is different and subtle and he will go
3:54:50 > 3:54:49on for a long time because he will not live as a political martyr on
3:54:50 > 3:54:49the square. He does things in a more humanistic way. His works are crazy
3:54:50 > 3:54:49and surreal. Maybe it does not work in the year when certain issues come
3:54:50 > 3:54:49out, but it does work later on. If you look at the fact that Mo Yan is
3:54:50 > 3:54:49lionised and celebrated in China today by the state, by the ruling
3:54:50 > 3:54:49party, he has become a multimillionaire and he is on the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49record as saying censorship in China is something akin to airport
3:54:50 > 3:54:49security checks, which is to say, necessary, are you sure you really
3:54:50 > 3:54:49want to... Just in general, the kind of view he represents, you say that
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is OK? I think that the writer cannot be defined by this. This
3:54:50 > 3:54:49thing, the fame, the wealth. It is a superficial thing. Because that
3:54:50 > 3:54:49comes after what he really is. And I think the work itself is a much more
3:54:50 > 3:54:49serious demonstration of his soul, his spirit. And in a way, I think
3:54:50 > 3:54:49that we are on a long journey to understand what is real Chinese art,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49what is real China. In China itself over the last 20, 50 years, is such
3:54:50 > 3:54:49a complicated system. I just want to get a clear idea of where you stand
3:54:50 > 3:54:49on this debate of whether you should be somebody who is a voice of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49protest and events `` dissent, whatever the consequences are, as Ai
3:54:50 > 3:54:49Weiwei has said. He has been detained for many months and
3:54:50 > 3:54:49harassed by the authorities and so on. There are those who have
3:54:50 > 3:54:49criticised people like the writer Mo Yan, for not signing a petition
3:54:50 > 3:54:49signed by 130 Nobel laureates including Desmond Tutu, calling for
3:54:50 > 3:54:49the release of Liu Xiaobo, and he says he does not want to sign this,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49he does not see why he should. I think certain people being cornered
3:54:50 > 3:54:49into their position and identity... The question of identity as to what
3:54:50 > 3:54:49kind of writer or artist you are. That is a dubious discussion because
3:54:50 > 3:54:49how do people live beyond your corner or identity because life
3:54:50 > 3:54:49becomes unliveable. I take the idea of the Soviet system and a great
3:54:50 > 3:54:49artist working under the Stalinist regime. I believe he was one of the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49best composure is in the whole world. `` composers. But he managed
3:54:50 > 3:54:49to create his own kind of individualistic, sober, pure
3:54:50 > 3:54:49thoughts into his music despite being under state command. I do not
3:54:50 > 3:54:49see why these two cannot coexist. There is very little freedom of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49expression in China. One statistic: Reporters Without Borders says that
3:54:50 > 3:54:49there are something like 70 citizens imprisoned at the moment and 30
3:54:50 > 3:54:49journalists. The kind of myriad things that the state does to try to
3:54:50 > 3:54:49control the internet. You cannot talk about Tiananmen Square, Taiwan
3:54:50 > 3:54:49and Tibet without incurring the wrath of the senses. There is a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49great deal of self`censorship at play for artists and writers working
3:54:50 > 3:54:49in China. That is the point, that you cannot really be free to express
3:54:50 > 3:54:49yourself as an artist or writer in China, given those constraints. I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49think yes and no. If you require the official version, your work has to
3:54:50 > 3:54:49go to the official channels to be published and distributed for the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49masses. That is a problem. How many people you can reach through the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49official channels. But then, the undercurrent culture, the subculture
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is so strong. If you meet young people in Beijing and Shanghai, you
3:54:50 > 3:54:49will be impressed at the energy underground in China. I would say
3:54:50 > 3:54:49yes and no because I would say that there are different levels of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49censorship and living in the West, I keep saying that there is even
3:54:50 > 3:54:49stronger commercial censorship in the West than the political
3:54:50 > 3:54:49censorship in the East and that becomes an invisible censorship,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49where we believe we are free and living in a democratic country, but
3:54:50 > 3:54:49then... What do you mean by commercial censorship? Only things
3:54:50 > 3:54:49that are going to appeal to a wide market are published? That what is
3:54:50 > 3:54:49published in countries like the UK is market`driven? You equate that
3:54:50 > 3:54:49with censorship of the political kind that we see in China? We
3:54:50 > 3:54:49presume that the free market is a neutral market, that there is not a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49domination from certain kinds of powers. But the free market is very
3:54:50 > 3:54:49much dominated by an elite or corporations these days. This market
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is deleterious to alternative culture. It puts the mass culture
3:54:50 > 3:54:49that consumers need on the first level, so the subculture, the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49undercurrent culture, remains underground and a subculture. And I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49think that market, the so`called free market, becomes a market that
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is not free. People publish on the internet if they do not get deals
3:54:50 > 3:54:49with major publishers. You cannot really equate that kind of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49commercial pressure to have a successful book... But I think we
3:54:50 > 3:54:49are not immune from the publicity, the propaganda machine, and that is
3:54:50 > 3:54:49so strong. Many artists in China publish great stuff that I have
3:54:50 > 3:54:49never heard of but the commercial propaganda is only focused on a few
3:54:50 > 3:54:49big products. Including yours? You have written many successful books
3:54:50 > 3:54:49in English and Chinese and won many successful awards and your work does
3:54:50 > 3:54:49get published. Is kind of a struggle, the situation. It is a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49difficult task for writers these days. Briefly, to finish off this
3:54:50 > 3:54:49thing about the role of the writer in China, how do you see the role of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49the writer, the Chinese writer? Really, if a writer can live beyond
3:54:50 > 3:54:49national identity. I can only take myself as an example. When I lived
3:54:50 > 3:54:49in China, I saw myself absolutely 100% as a Chinese writer, writing in
3:54:50 > 3:54:49Mandarin speaking Chinese. But in the last 12 years, coming to Britain
3:54:50 > 3:54:49and living in Western Europe, that has really enlarge the possibility
3:54:50 > 3:54:49that... You can live in a multi` identity. I'm an Anglo Oriental
3:54:50 > 3:54:49writer. The last ten years I have lived in Britain, I have written in
3:54:50 > 3:54:49English but the subject is mostly China. Then again, is it so
3:54:50 > 3:54:49important to have this national identity? Because that is imposed on
3:54:50 > 3:54:49you. You cannot change that. I think it would be great if a writer could
3:54:50 > 3:54:49live beyond national constraints and talk about the things beyond... You
3:54:50 > 3:54:49say that you write about China but in English for the most part now and
3:54:50 > 3:54:49your books are not freely available, the ones who have written
3:54:50 > 3:54:49in Chinese, in China. Who do you see yourself... Who your audience? What
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is your mission? To explain China to a Western audience writing in
3:54:50 > 3:54:49English? Because there are people like Mo Yan who say, I don't care
3:54:50 > 3:54:49about global audiences and I only write in Chinese for a Chinese
3:54:50 > 3:54:49audience. Hoodie right Anyone, east or west, with a similar
3:54:50 > 3:54:49experience. So for the first few years, you will live here, and then
3:54:50 > 3:54:49in Japan. Or elsewhere. We share this global environment. So you
3:54:50 > 3:54:49don't have a clear audience. I'll tell you what an acclaimed writer
3:54:50 > 3:54:49told HARDtalk in July this year. I am published in the West, and there
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is something that makes me very uncomfortable about that. The people
3:54:50 > 3:54:49among whom I live, and grew up, had no access to my products. Does she
3:54:50 > 3:54:49but I think it is a process. It is but I think it is a process. It is
3:54:50 > 3:54:49not a static phase, people will never read your novel in other
3:54:50 > 3:54:49countries, I think the translation and reintroduction back to your
3:54:50 > 3:54:49native country can be in five years' time, or seven years' time. I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49don't think that a big constraint on your work. And I think for me,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49writing in both languages mainly is a form of self`censorship. Example,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49if I write in Chinese in China, a certain subjects I would not want to
3:54:50 > 3:54:49write, a great deal. Like what, for example? Like very hard`core
3:54:50 > 3:54:49political subjects, sexuality for example. These are the things I love
3:54:50 > 3:54:49to write, and I really... It was a great part of my life, and for my
3:54:50 > 3:54:49family as well. So you self censor because of worries about what might
3:54:50 > 3:54:49happen to you? Absolutely. You want to continue for your life and for
3:54:50 > 3:54:49your family and friends around you. So that discussion on my other
3:54:50 > 3:54:49novels, what is bigger. Life itself, as a huge universe. And I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49think expression is another layer of your life, your reality, it is an
3:54:50 > 3:54:49extension of reality. But I wouldn't use that to kill this one reality.
3:54:50 > 3:54:49And it is true, and I am not passing any judgement, that it is difficult
3:54:50 > 3:54:49for people to be outspoken. The person who won the peace prize in
3:54:50 > 3:54:492010 is now in prison, a prison sentence. He is a literary critic
3:54:50 > 3:54:49and a writer, a human rights campaigner, he has paid the price
3:54:50 > 3:54:49for speaking out. Do you think that you are perhaps a bit reticent?
3:54:50 > 3:54:49Because even when you were 15, you talked about Tiananmen Square, you
3:54:50 > 3:54:49wanted to join your brother to go on the process, and you had
3:54:50 > 3:54:49revolutionary ideas, you wanted to protest, but people were too
3:54:50 > 3:54:49scared. Do you still feel that that 15`year`old girl is still speaking
3:54:50 > 3:54:49today, when you say look, I have to self censor, because I don't want to
3:54:50 > 3:54:49endanger myself or my family back in China? Not so much, but more like
3:54:50 > 3:54:49because my family was quite hard`core Communist family, so I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49grew up a bit anarchic in a way, because my father was in a camp for
3:54:50 > 3:54:49more than ten years. You should just explain why he was. Because he
3:54:50 > 3:54:49wanted to paint landscapes like van Gogh, and he should have had lots of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49peasants in them, and the authorities thought this was a bit
3:54:50 > 3:54:49subversive, and therefore he was in and out, wasn't he, of Labour camps,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49for the best part of two decades. Yes. And for my generation, in the
3:54:50 > 3:54:4970s and 80s in China, ideological education, less strong, than in the
3:54:50 > 3:54:4960s. So after the Cultural Revolution. So China, the door was
3:54:50 > 3:54:49opening up. And I think I was a bit, really kind of having this anarchy
3:54:50 > 3:54:49attitude towards political discussion, towards my father's
3:54:50 > 3:54:49generation. And at that time, although I was young, 15 or 16, when
3:54:50 > 3:54:49Tiananmen Square happened. I was also reading beat generation
3:54:50 > 3:54:49columns. So that was a different path. So are very ideological
3:54:50 > 3:54:49discussion, and opened the door to another layer of discussion, more
3:54:50 > 3:54:49about individual freedom and self expression. You were quoted in a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49British newspaper in May this year about Ruutu, and you said believed
3:54:50 > 3:54:49that China would change, or at least they would be democratic elections.
3:54:50 > 3:54:49`` Tiananmen Square. That is what you said about China then. Has China
3:54:50 > 3:54:49changed in this past quarter of a century, and if so, do you think it
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is for the better or for the worse? I think for that matter. I mean, in
3:54:50 > 3:54:49a way now I live in the West, so people might they you don't know the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49reality going on in China stop at the Chinese revolution is part of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49the global abolition. From it used to be a feudal society to a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49communist society. And then going towards a certain kind of state
3:54:50 > 3:54:49capitalism society. But the Chinese, the democracy in China
3:54:50 > 3:54:49would not be changed, inside the political struggle. It would be
3:54:50 > 3:54:49demand to change radically from an ideological point of view, from an
3:54:50 > 3:54:49environmental point of view. Because what is going on, the pollution
3:54:50 > 3:54:49level in China, people's illness, and the poor quality of life, they
3:54:50 > 3:54:49will demand radical change, in terms of democracy and transparency of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49information. Food and the water we consume in the land. So that is not
3:54:50 > 3:54:49only China's problem. I think it is a shared, global problem. But you
3:54:50 > 3:54:49are also on the record as saying that you lament the fact that China
3:54:50 > 3:54:49has lost what could be described as Chinese identity, Chinese values, in
3:54:50 > 3:54:49that they have taken on what you call American values, and there is
3:54:50 > 3:54:49this feeling in China now, for instance a very successful online
3:54:50 > 3:54:49campaign recently to take Starbucks coffee shop out of the century is
3:54:50 > 3:54:49`old forbidden city. So how far are you worried that there is an erosion
3:54:50 > 3:54:49of Chinese values and identity in favour of a more global identity? It
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is very interesting. It is an interesting kind of discussion in
3:54:50 > 3:54:49China, because the elite intellectual in Beijing suggest a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49certain democracy not in the western format, but we call it a Confucian
3:54:50 > 3:54:49democracy. But it will not be entirely useful. It was the modern
3:54:50 > 3:54:49society, the family concept also changed. And you can't just go back
3:54:50 > 3:54:49to the past. So, then they suggest that because China is not really
3:54:50 > 3:54:49using the Russian model, or American model, or European model. China is
3:54:50 > 3:54:49creating its own model, because of the unique last 50 years Communist
3:54:50 > 3:54:49regime, that is also based on 2000 years of fuel, Confucian society. So
3:54:50 > 3:54:49I think that's quite interesting, how ideology is slowly changing by a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49pragmatic method in society, and from the leadership. But it's not
3:54:50 > 3:54:49just globalisation that has dealt a blow to what you might describe as
3:54:50 > 3:54:49traditional family values in China. We know historically the Chinese
3:54:50 > 3:54:49family has been a very close`knit one, and great respect and deference
3:54:50 > 3:54:49towards their elders. Because the one child policy introduced in 1979
3:54:50 > 3:54:49means that you have a younger generation of Chinese people, worn
3:54:50 > 3:54:49after them, who are by single children, and so obviously they get
3:54:50 > 3:54:49lavish attention put on them from their families. Which means they do
3:54:50 > 3:54:49adopt a more kind of individualistic kind of, you know, value, of the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49kind we associate with the West rather than the east. So it is not
3:54:50 > 3:54:49just globalisation, it is Chinese policy that is also responsible for
3:54:50 > 3:54:49that. But again, I think that this great discussion about self, what is
3:54:50 > 3:54:49self? And what is identity of self? Because in China it was a long time,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49thousands of years of autocracy, and then they become kind of socialist
3:54:50 > 3:54:49country, but the individual value wasn't encouraged at all, for so
3:54:50 > 3:54:49long. And I think some individualism has certain kinds of freedoms. The
3:54:50 > 3:54:49individual has to invent themselves from this very heavy controlled
3:54:50 > 3:54:49baggage from the past, and from the family. And this is an interesting
3:54:50 > 3:54:49moment. How the young individual express themselves to the Internet,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49or art. And what do you think of the young in China today? Because you
3:54:50 > 3:54:49have said that you have some questions about... I think in the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49beginning, I thought, as a young generation in China, vary in
3:54:50 > 3:54:49different, cold, distant, to the political discussion. You know, it
3:54:50 > 3:54:49is very close to American youth, and to Weston youth. It is really very
3:54:50 > 3:54:49sensitive, but not to the discussion of depth of culture and the
3:54:50 > 3:54:49political identity. But again, I think that is a percent, because a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49country has to go through that process in order to understand who
3:54:50 > 3:54:49they are now and how they work. And give another five or ten years, we
3:54:50 > 3:54:49will see. You know Chinese people now, by and large, are more sort of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49plugged into the global economy and global culture and so on as we have
3:54:50 > 3:54:49been discussing. And Daniel Griswold from the think`tank, the Cato
3:54:50 > 3:54:49Institute, said an expanding middle class is experiencing for the first
3:54:50 > 3:54:49time the independence of home ownership, travel abroad, and
3:54:50 > 3:54:49cooperation with others in economic enterprise, free of government
3:54:50 > 3:54:49control. That can only be good news for individual freedom in China. So
3:54:50 > 3:54:49do you think that that kind of prosperity in the end will make a
3:54:50 > 3:54:49democracy out of what is essentially a dictatorship? Well first, I'm not
3:54:50 > 3:54:49sure if dictatorship is the right word. OK, democracy out of what we
3:54:50 > 3:54:49have now, 1`party rule, authoritarianism. That's right, yes.
3:54:50 > 3:54:49I'm not sure. A democratic society will be constructive from that, as I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49said, early on, I think it will come out from the urgency of dealing with
3:54:50 > 3:54:49environmental and pollution problems. Which is a large scale,
3:54:50 > 3:54:49going on in China. You could see it the other way round. Greater
3:54:50 > 3:54:49material comfort happening in China, 680 million people lived out of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49poverty between 1981 and 2010, that as people become more prosperous it
3:54:50 > 3:54:49will diminish their revolutionary fervour. Your brother protested in
3:54:50 > 3:54:49Tiananmen Square, and is now an official painter for the government.
3:54:50 > 3:54:49That's right. It interesting. It's a living museum. We couldn't pin down
3:54:50 > 3:54:49what kind of political system going on in China, and what kind of
3:54:50 > 3:54:49society it is now. Because it is kind of been squeezed in the last 20
3:54:50 > 3:54:49years, all of this format of the political structure has been
3:54:50 > 3:54:49squeezed in that very short time. So as I said, I think we should give
3:54:50 > 3:54:49another ten years to see the model, how it evolves. Xiaolu Guo, thank
3:54:50 > 3:54:49you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you.
3:54:50 > 3:54:49starting to look a little parched, I starting to look a little parched, I
3:54:50 > 3:54:49suspect there will be some welcome water in the forecast over the next
3:54:50 > 3:54:49few days. Not great news though if you've got outdoor activities. We
3:54:50 > 3:54:49could actually see some wet weather today. Some of it quite heavy.
3:54:50 > 3:54:50Across the extreme south`east. With plenty of