:00:00. > :00:00.the 1990s of sex offences against young girls, but insisted he was no
:00:00. > :00:17.longer a danger to children. Now it's time for HardTalk. Peace and
:00:18. > :00:22.security was one of the topics discussed at the US`Africa summit in
:00:23. > :00:28.Washington. Mozambique is one African country that suffered a long
:00:29. > :00:31.and brutal civil war. It ended more than 20 years ago when the ruling
:00:32. > :00:34.Frelimo Party signed an accord with the rebel Renamo movement. But now
:00:35. > :00:45.Renamo guerrillas have gone back into the bush. My guest is Armando
:00:46. > :00:47.Guebuza, president of Mozambique. Is his country in danger of slipping
:00:48. > :01:18.back into conflict? Armando Guebuza, welcome. Thank
:01:19. > :01:26.you. How worried that the peace at Mozambique has enjoyed since 1982
:01:27. > :01:33.could be at an end? It is worrying that after 21 years of development
:01:34. > :01:36.in the country and an environment in which everybody could talk and
:01:37. > :01:43.expressed their views and participate in the construction of
:01:44. > :01:47.the country, the leader of Renamo decided to go to the bush.
:01:48. > :01:58.Nevertheless, we understand the way to overcome
:01:59. > :02:08.that and address the problems is by setting and talking. `` sitting. We
:02:09. > :02:13.have been doing that sometime. Let's talk about how worried you are.
:02:14. > :02:17.South Africa's minister of service says that Mozambique was at war for
:02:18. > :02:23.a long time. It is a worry that after enjoying peace a long time, it
:02:24. > :02:27.could revert back to violence or two armed confrontation. What is the
:02:28. > :02:37.likelihood of Mozambique slipping back into conflict? What happened is
:02:38. > :02:42.that some Renamo people decided to attack some areas. Following orders
:02:43. > :02:50.of the leader, and he has confessed that many times. They said they
:02:51. > :02:57.returned to the bush in June because hostilities started in October
:02:58. > :03:04.because of attacks on their headquarters. It is interesting
:03:05. > :03:14.because back in recent history, they started by attacking the population
:03:15. > :03:21.in the main route going north and south. They were killing civilians.
:03:22. > :03:24.It is the obligation of any responsible government to do what
:03:25. > :03:33.ever it can in order to protect its citizens. Renamo, the leader of
:03:34. > :03:39.Renamo at that moment, he went to the bush. What
:03:40. > :03:47.we are doing is to make sure he does not rely on finance to do things.
:03:48. > :03:54.People could go and visit him there and discuss with him there, but
:03:55. > :04:01.instead of doing that, he started ambushing our troops. They had of
:04:02. > :04:08.the Renamo movement has been in that position for about 30 years, and he
:04:09. > :04:13.said that he could assume his armed campaign. He also said that you have
:04:14. > :04:18.elections in your country in October. You can't stand for a third
:04:19. > :04:23.term. You have been in power 2000 four. He won the election in 2009
:04:24. > :04:26.with 55% of the vote. But he says that he is interested in coming out
:04:27. > :04:36.of the bush to start his party worker
:04:37. > :04:46.`` work for the presidential campaign. He wants to make sure her
:04:47. > :04:51.safety will be guaranteed? He has to participate in elections. If you
:04:52. > :04:55.follow what has been happening lately, you will find that some of
:04:56. > :05:04.the issues that were raised were met positively by the government. We
:05:05. > :05:11.have a electoral roll package and was met positively. That means he
:05:12. > :05:15.had no reason not to go back and participate in the electoral
:05:16. > :05:20.campaign. He is not just asking for that. He is asking for other things.
:05:21. > :05:23.He wants Renamo members to be absorbed into the national army and
:05:24. > :05:37.police. He wants wider economic powers. It was never a problem. Even
:05:38. > :05:45.after the Rome agreement 20 years ago. That was the Coquard you signed
:05:46. > :05:50.in 1982. Yes. One of the things was that you could take that to the
:05:51. > :06:01.police and they could be part of his guard. There were many talks to the
:06:02. > :06:08.police along that time. He agreed, but he never went to the police to
:06:09. > :06:19.do something. He has his grievance is nevertheless. There have been six
:06:20. > :06:23.rounds of talks. More than that. You need to find a formula so that you
:06:24. > :06:29.don't see a resumption of the terrible conflict that affected your
:06:30. > :06:32.country for so many years. A million people were dead. Millions more fled
:06:33. > :06:36.their homes. You are now seeing almost daily attacks in Mozambique
:06:37. > :06:42.between Renamo and your military forces. How will you going to ensure
:06:43. > :06:57.that peace does not slip away from your country? I would like to
:06:58. > :07:08.clarify one thing. There were no Mozambicans that were not affected.
:07:09. > :07:16.Families, friends, neighbours, whatever from the north to the
:07:17. > :07:20.south. Mozambicans are more interested than anybody to have this
:07:21. > :07:22.situation clarified. The second element is that when Renamo decided
:07:23. > :07:34.to attack along the main railroad from the south to the
:07:35. > :07:43.north, people complained first, what about business? People are suffering
:07:44. > :07:51.from the fear of this resumption of conflict. It is more our concern
:07:52. > :07:58.than anyone else. What will you do? What they will do is to ask how I
:07:59. > :08:01.will overcome this question. He says he has complained. I'm discussing
:08:02. > :08:06.the merits of his complaint. There is no place in any government that
:08:07. > :08:16.you don't have people who complain. Let us sit with him and discuss with
:08:17. > :08:21.him. Let's have a group together. That was one of the first things I
:08:22. > :08:32.said. We can work on a proposal. Then we both, we can sit and take a
:08:33. > :08:38.decision. It is more than decisions. It is more than that. It had been
:08:39. > :08:47.going like that. Today, we're not complaining that much. Both sides
:08:48. > :08:52.are close. Both sides are close to an agreement so you believe you can
:08:53. > :08:56.avoid a slide back into civil war. One of the reasons that people in
:08:57. > :09:01.your country want to enjoy peace and stability is because the market
:09:02. > :09:05.needs stability. You don't want to scare investors off at a time when
:09:06. > :09:14.you have discovered amazing amounts of liquefied natural gas and thermal
:09:15. > :09:20.coal. By 2010, Mozambique could be the world's third biggest gas
:09:21. > :09:24.producer. How are you going to see that the people of Mozambique can
:09:25. > :09:30.get the share of this mineral wealth that they deserve? You are talking
:09:31. > :09:39.about the future. Let me talk about the present. You are already
:09:40. > :09:43.exploiting your mineral wealth. Let's talk about coal. As soon as we
:09:44. > :09:47.started using coal immediately, infrastructure started to be put in
:09:48. > :09:57.place. That will take a long time. I'm talking about railways. And
:09:58. > :10:01.talking about ports. Created new ones and upgrading the ones that
:10:02. > :10:11.exist. That will mean that a lot of jobs are there. In the mines, a lot
:10:12. > :10:16.of jobs are there. How are you going to make sure that people get the
:10:17. > :10:20.fair share of the wealth they deserve? How do you mean fair? It is
:10:21. > :10:27.subjective. I will give you an idea. A think tank in Paris says leading
:10:28. > :10:33.figures in 3`D mode, or your party, the ruling party, is making use of
:10:34. > :10:44.their links with the presidential claim to position themselves in the
:10:45. > :11:01.mining sector. `` figures in the Frelino. That is a lie. Is it? Is
:11:02. > :11:09.that intelligence unit did do a survey, it'd be interesting to see
:11:10. > :11:20.who was where doing what. The beginning. Can I say, it is not just
:11:21. > :11:31.this source that's as that. `` that says that. All Mozambicans, whether
:11:32. > :11:34.they are the leaders or not, are not prohibited by law in in
:11:35. > :11:45.participating in economic ventures. They talking about legal
:11:46. > :11:51.involvement. That is completely forbidden. If somebody knows about
:11:52. > :11:55.that, that is a matter of justice. You pass the laws, but the law on
:11:56. > :12:05.probity that you passed in 2012 is largely ignored. Is it? You don't
:12:06. > :12:13.like that source. I will give you a another one. In Tunisia, several
:12:14. > :12:19.European countries, Norway, Spain, etc, all withdrew their budgetary
:12:20. > :12:26.assistance to Mozambique. This was the reason cited by the Italian
:12:27. > :12:29.ambassador. There are concerns over fiscal transparency, fighting
:12:30. > :12:34.corruption and other outstanding issues and that is what has led to
:12:35. > :12:37.some of Mozambique's partners to withdraw this fiscal budgetary
:12:38. > :12:47.direct assistance. What do you say to him? He should know that he is
:12:48. > :12:52.not telling the truth. That we have corruption in the country it is a
:12:53. > :12:57.fact. That is why we are fighting corruption. If you go to the courts,
:12:58. > :13:03.you will find many people involved in were taken to court. Some of them
:13:04. > :13:09.are still there we can. We are not saying there is no corruption.
:13:10. > :13:20.Second thing is that with this issue, it is a problem of the
:13:21. > :13:24.leadership of Frelimo. Even the leaders, why can they not
:13:25. > :13:27.participate if they are able to in creating wealth in the country and
:13:28. > :13:33.providing jobs to people and the country? Because the criticism is
:13:34. > :13:35.that a small elite associated with the ruling party and with strong
:13:36. > :13:44.business interests are dominating the country. They don't say who is
:13:45. > :13:50.doing what. That is the problem. Let me give you... These are
:13:51. > :13:54.allegations. They are not allegations. I don't want to go into
:13:55. > :13:58.specific cases. I don't want to try anyone on television will stop you
:13:59. > :14:04.look at the mining sector. You can also look at the agricultural
:14:05. > :14:07.sector. Since 2004 when you have been President, 6 million ages in
:14:08. > :14:13.Mozambique have been used both to foreign and domestic investors.
:14:14. > :14:19.There is one example in 2009, 20 5000 acres of abandoned state farm
:14:20. > :14:22.were given to a Portuguese company. That Portuguese company promised to
:14:23. > :14:25.double the amount of land to the people who were displaced from that
:14:26. > :14:33.particular farm and promised a new school, promised a new clinic and
:14:34. > :14:41.wealth and so on. Since then, nothing has been built. All the
:14:42. > :14:47.villagers received was an ambulance. People who take the decisions do not
:14:48. > :14:50.comply with the decision. These are issues on which we should take them
:14:51. > :14:52.to court. We should use the resources and which we have in terms
:14:53. > :15:02.of court `` law and regulations. Two thirds
:15:03. > :15:04.of the workforce live off the land and you have to be mindful of how
:15:05. > :15:11.you develop your agricultural resources. A non`profit organisation
:15:12. > :15:15.says that the land in Mozambique is worked by small farmers, and yet the
:15:16. > :15:18.government is placing it in the hands of corporations. I'm sure
:15:19. > :15:23.there are some companies with good intentions, they are profiting from
:15:24. > :15:31.low wages and low land prices. Industrial agriculture will be two
:15:32. > :15:36.more exportation. `` lead to more. We have an agreement with a
:15:37. > :15:47.Brazilian company and a Japanese company. That is to transform
:15:48. > :15:50.agriculture from farming, subsistence farming into commercial
:15:51. > :15:55.farming and to give training to those people that are involved
:15:56. > :16:00.there. And it has started. In a short time, we are going to be able
:16:01. > :16:07.to produce enough for consumption and also to be put
:16:08. > :16:16.that into exports and processing. From what you're telling me, if
:16:17. > :16:20.there are one two cases, were we may have a justice, that we should stop
:16:21. > :16:34.everything and look at these two cases.
:16:35. > :16:39.raising with you here today, Mr President. The one thing is, as I
:16:40. > :16:41.said, how can you ensure that the people of Mozambique benefit from
:16:42. > :16:45.the county's natural wealth and that is one point how you have got the
:16:46. > :16:48.get the expertise right, you have got to get your negotiations with
:16:49. > :16:52.multi`national corporations right, so you make sure you are getting
:16:53. > :16:58.maximum benefits because there have been examples in your country in the
:16:59. > :17:04.past when, for instance, the Bengar coal mine was sold to one big
:17:05. > :17:09.multi`national corporation. You gave them tax ement seemions. If you had
:17:10. > :17:12.paid Capital Gains Tax your country would have benefited by millions of
:17:13. > :17:16.dollars. We had no experience on that. After that, yes. They paid
:17:17. > :17:21.after that. That is what I am saying, you had no experiences. Have
:17:22. > :17:25.you making sure you have got the expertise so, to put it bluntly, you
:17:26. > :17:31.are not being ripped off by multi`national organisations. Today
:17:32. > :17:35.all of the peep le are paying. Even when you go to gas, they are paying
:17:36. > :17:40.their taxes. They must pay their taxes. You are saying that they are
:17:41. > :17:45.now. Yes. The other point I was making, which is this point about
:17:46. > :17:50.corruption, because you know Alice Moborta, the director of the
:17:51. > :17:54.Mozambique 's Human Rights League and she says that people are verier,
:17:55. > :17:57.very angry about corruption in Mozambique and you have accepted it
:17:58. > :18:01.guess on. You you have been president for 10 year the point is
:18:02. > :18:08.that your party, in fact, has been in power since independence in 1975
:18:09. > :18:12.in Mozambique, that there is a grey area that private and public
:18:13. > :18:13.officials ` it all merges into one and that you preside over the
:18:14. > :18:21.system. (LAUGHS).
:18:22. > :18:26.That is a fact. If you ` if we talk about government, you are talking
:18:27. > :18:30.about a very complex process that involves goods, good people and
:18:31. > :18:41.people who are not clear about things. If we taken a error, a
:18:42. > :18:46.mistake, a crime and generalise them into the whole system, it can't
:18:47. > :18:52.work. So, the government will not do anything. But if you identify the
:18:53. > :18:55.specific cases, then I can assure you that the government will
:18:56. > :19:01.continue to about. I am sure you are aware of them because, I mean, they
:19:02. > :19:06.have been, you know, there was the WikiLeaks in 2009, which listed a
:19:07. > :19:11.whole catalogue of alleged official corruption. Yes. You have got
:19:12. > :19:14.transparency international, so many organisations. That say things that
:19:15. > :19:19.you don't know if they are true or not. You have to investigate. We are
:19:20. > :19:24.responsible government. Whoever speaks about the bad things will not
:19:25. > :19:32.say they are just because they say the things are not correct. What I
:19:33. > :19:37.do if something is told of importance, I follow that and
:19:38. > :19:40.investigate that. If you look at the figures, though, for instance,
:19:41. > :19:47.Mozambique still remains one of the poorest countries in the world. It
:19:48. > :19:50.is something like 185 out of 187 in the United Nations development ``
:19:51. > :19:54.Human development index. (LAUGHS).
:19:55. > :20:01.Yes. Your battle is the fight to end battle for all citizens. Yes. You do
:20:02. > :20:06.have this. Inequality is a big issue in your country. One fellow, a ka
:20:07. > :20:10.pella of journalists there, is a agreeing divide between old and
:20:11. > :20:15.young and rich and poor. We are the new generation, being educated and
:20:16. > :20:22.want jobs. Are they educated? Well, yes. You have made some progress and
:20:23. > :20:27.you have been `` You admit that. You have two Mozambiques, people living
:20:28. > :20:33.in huts and shacks and then people `` If you go to the areas, rural
:20:34. > :20:37.areas, you will find people living in beautiful houses, some of them
:20:38. > :20:41.like that. Beautiful houses. They built them themselves because they
:20:42. > :20:46.are working. They are working hard. But these average `` You still find
:20:47. > :20:53.some people who live in huts, but it is less and less and less. Then you
:20:54. > :20:59.have the luxury flats a the traffic jams because people `` Development
:21:00. > :21:03.cannot just be a one`way thing. No, but you should have had in 10 years
:21:04. > :21:08.a better record mraps on tackling poverty in your country and actually
:21:09. > :21:13.the statistics have mooed slightly away because in 2003, according to
:21:14. > :21:19.the Mozambicans national statistics, poverty levels were 54. 1%, by 2009,
:21:20. > :21:29.they had gone up a bit to 54. 7%. That is on your watch. You know one
:21:30. > :21:33.thing ` there is a joke that is spoken about which unfortunately
:21:34. > :21:42.corresponds to reality. I am told usually today we are poorer than we
:21:43. > :21:45.used to be. Even during corrupt period. I say to myself that is
:21:46. > :21:49.impossible. That is a person that does not know the. Country that
:21:50. > :21:53.would be commenting on those things. I am talking about those who write
:21:54. > :21:59.and go and do surveys in huts and then they think that people just
:22:00. > :22:06.live in huts and they forget that people have different tastes in a
:22:07. > :22:12.way of life even in rural areas. Mozambicans at the moment of
:22:13. > :22:21.independence, only one university and it is that university 2000
:22:22. > :22:29.students of which only 40 were Mozambicans, today we have more than
:22:30. > :22:34.40 institutions of higher learning. Teachers, most of them, are
:22:35. > :22:39.Mozambicans and they are not in Muputu only. They I are spread all
:22:40. > :22:43.over the country. Hospitals `` You have made progress, is what you are
:22:44. > :22:48.saying. We are fighting poverty is what I am saying. We are fighting
:22:49. > :22:51.against exactly the inequalities that you are talking about.
:22:52. > :22:57.Universities are close to the people. Hospitals are close to the
:22:58. > :23:02.people. Maternities are close to the people. Not to our ` the way that we
:23:03. > :23:07.would like it to be, but that is the only way that you can have. All
:23:08. > :23:13.right. You have elections in October for a new president. Your party has
:23:14. > :23:17.been in power for all of Mozambique's independence. Wouldn't
:23:18. > :23:21.it be better for democracy if you didn't have one party `` What
:23:22. > :23:30.democracy did you ever see that will refuse the decision of the people?
:23:31. > :23:35.If people accept, why should we refuse? Who are we, who am I to say
:23:36. > :23:41.this people are wrong? I am the only one that is right. No. I think that
:23:42. > :23:47.we have to accept that if the law allows, we must continue. Otherwise,
:23:48. > :23:53.we are not going to be elections. We will say, "This time who will be
:23:54. > :23:57.chairing ` this time is Armando and two years ago it will be MD or
:23:58. > :24:05.something like that. "Did you see any country in the world that works
:24:06. > :24:07.that way? Got to leave it there, president Guebuza. Thank you for
:24:08. > :24:28.coming on Hard Talk. Thank you. It is quite a while to the weekend
:24:29. > :24:31.across most parts of the UK. Some heavy rain and strong winds as well.
:24:32. > :24:35.This is what it looks like from space. This mass of cloud working
:24:36. > :24:40.its way northwards through the day. You can see the curl in the cloud.
:24:41. > :24:44.That is indicative of a deep area of low pressure into the morning. Lots
:24:45. > :24:46.of isobars across Scotland and northern England. We will see
:24:47. > :24:47.blustery