:00:00. > :00:11.prices. More on our top stories at 1:00am.
:00:12. > :00:18.Now on BBC News, HARDtalk. Welcome to the programme. The UN
:00:19. > :00:23.says there is a major humanitarian crisis in northern Iraq. It is more
:00:24. > :00:28.than a week since Iraqis, especially minorities like the Yazidi people,
:00:29. > :00:33.fled their homes after jihadist stormed their towns and villages,
:00:34. > :00:37.reportedly killing hundreds. There have been eyewitness accounts of
:00:38. > :00:41.people beheaded and whole families buried alive. Now, thousands of
:00:42. > :00:46.people are stranded in a hot and barren mountainous region. Many have
:00:47. > :00:51.died through dehydration and a lack of food. My guest is Masrour
:00:52. > :00:55.Barzani, head of Intelligence and Security Committee rockKurdish
:00:56. > :01:03.region. Is it the Kurds who can rescue the State of Iraq and how
:01:04. > :01:05.much `` how much help do they need from outside to defeat the jihadists
:01:06. > :01:36.of the so`called Islamic State? Welcome to the programme. How
:01:37. > :01:43.surprised you buy the games that the jihadists have made? We are very
:01:44. > :01:51.surprised. In fact, we have seen very rapid growth from ISIS since
:01:52. > :01:57.the fighting in Syria. And then rapidly, they grew into a much more
:01:58. > :02:01.large organisation. We are now dealing with a state of terrorists,
:02:02. > :02:06.not just an organisation. They have grown in number and control a much
:02:07. > :02:11.larger territory. And they have much more and better weapons. The defeat
:02:12. > :02:17.of the Syrian and Iraqi army has given them much more power and we
:02:18. > :02:22.are facing that today. Tuesday the defeat of the Syrian and Iraqi army,
:02:23. > :02:33.but the fact of the matter is that the Peshmerga forces, according to
:02:34. > :02:35.one BBC correspondent, people are too scared to go back because they
:02:36. > :02:45.have seen the Kurdish forces just melting away. Like I said, they were
:02:46. > :02:50.an organisation. After taking all the weapons from the Syrian and
:02:51. > :02:56.Iraqi army, they have become a much stronger organisation. And now, they
:02:57. > :03:04.are outgunning the Peshmergas and as a result of the firepower that they
:03:05. > :03:08.have Tom they have the upper hand. `` as a result of the firepower that
:03:09. > :03:14.they have, they have the upper hand. They have been able to take large
:03:15. > :03:23.sections of land including Sinjar and different parts of Kurdistan.
:03:24. > :03:25.The Peshmergas stopped them where they were and pushed them back and
:03:26. > :03:33.have retaken these towns and villages. In this situation right
:03:34. > :03:36.now, we are in constant fighting and the battle is going on in different
:03:37. > :03:44.parts of the engagement line between us and them. We are sharing a border
:03:45. > :03:51.of 150 thousand kilometres with ISIS and with all the weaponry they have
:03:52. > :03:55.seized from the Iraqi military, they have been able to bring most of
:03:56. > :04:01.those weapons to the front line to fight the Peshmergas. The problem is
:04:02. > :04:07.that the Peshmergas do not have the same kind of weapons to fight back.
:04:08. > :04:13.I will ask about that in a moment. First of all, since June, as you
:04:14. > :04:16.say, the jihadists have made huge gains, seizing about one quarter of
:04:17. > :04:23.the territory of Iraq. There you are, the head of intelligence and
:04:24. > :04:27.security for the Kurds in Iraq. Your security was inadequate. We were
:04:28. > :04:33.taken by surprise, you say. Shouldn't you have known better the
:04:34. > :04:41.capabilities that the jihadists had? We knew about their intention. We
:04:42. > :04:45.had good information about ISIS when they moved into the southern part of
:04:46. > :04:52.Mosul. We communicated with the Iraqi government at the time and we
:04:53. > :04:56.want that ISIS was intending to enter Mosul. Unfortunately, Baghdad
:04:57. > :05:00.was not very responsive and they did not want our cooperation at the
:05:01. > :05:05.time. Until they took Mosul. When they took Mosul and five divisions
:05:06. > :05:10.of the Iraqi army left their posts and their guns... That is the
:05:11. > :05:16.surprising point for us. It is not just the Iraqis, is it? Is not just
:05:17. > :05:25.the Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad that was a failure. President Obama
:05:26. > :05:28.has said that there is no doubt that ISIS's advance, the movement over
:05:29. > :05:33.the last several months, has been more rapid than the intelligence
:05:34. > :05:37.estimates and the expectations of policymakers both in and outside of
:05:38. > :05:45.Iraq. Even American intelligence failed. I would not say it is a
:05:46. > :05:51.failure but everybody underestimated the power of ISIS. I think the
:05:52. > :05:57.turning point for ISIS was when they managed to wipe out all these units
:05:58. > :06:03.of the Iraqi military in and around Mosul in less than 48 hours. That
:06:04. > :06:09.gave them much more power and nobody anticipated such a quick victory for
:06:10. > :06:14.ISIS. The US is giving you arms, ammunition and artillery. The French
:06:15. > :06:19.also will be giving you arms. Is that going to be enough? Can it then
:06:20. > :06:26.leave the Peshmergas, the Kurds, who can rescue Iraq? Everything we have
:06:27. > :06:30.received so far is insufficient. We have received some ammunition and
:06:31. > :06:34.some might machine`guns but nothing as effective as what we are asking
:06:35. > :06:39.for. We hope that they will reconsider and tried to equip
:06:40. > :06:40.Peshmergas with heavy arms that will be more effective in terms of
:06:41. > :06:46.fighting ISIS and hopefully fighting ISIS and hopefully
:06:47. > :06:50.defeating them. You know, the US, of course, Chuck Hegel, the Defence
:06:51. > :06:54.Secretary, says that there are 130 American military personnel on the
:06:55. > :07:00.ground, giving the Iraqis advice as to how to tackle this jihadists
:07:01. > :07:04.threat but they say there will be no more help than that. There will be
:07:05. > :07:08.no more combat troops. You say you can do the job without combat troops
:07:09. > :07:14.from outside. Are you sure of that? Yes, as long as they continue
:07:15. > :07:18.providing the air strikes and expanding the airstrikes against the
:07:19. > :07:25.critical targets of ISIS and provide us with the right armament, I am
:07:26. > :07:32.sure that we can do the job without having to ask for any more soldiers
:07:33. > :07:35.from elsewhere to come. We do not need soldiers. Like I said, we need
:07:36. > :07:41.armaments and then the airstrikes to continue. There is some reticence in
:07:42. > :07:46.some quarters that, if you are on the Kurds, you are favouring one
:07:47. > :07:51.faction in Iraq over other side. And when this question was put to
:07:52. > :07:55.Colonel Cedric Leighton, the retired intelligence and former member of
:07:56. > :08:01.the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, he said that the US is certainly
:08:02. > :08:04.choosing the Kurdish side. There is a danger in that. If we are not
:08:05. > :08:11.careful, we could very much bring about the de facto part decision ``
:08:12. > :08:18.partition of the Iraqi state. That is a legitimate concern, isn't it?
:08:19. > :08:23.Let me make a point, here. Peshmergas, in fact, as part of the
:08:24. > :08:26.overall defence policy of Iraq, were deprived of receiving any military
:08:27. > :08:32.aid from the Iraqi government or from anyone anywhere else.
:08:33. > :08:36.Peshmergas have the duty to protect Kurdistan but when it comes to the
:08:37. > :08:41.rights of arming the Peshmergas or even paying the Peshmergas, the
:08:42. > :08:45.Iraqi government was reluctant to provide those kinds of support to
:08:46. > :08:50.the Peshmergas. It is our right to be armed to protect this part of
:08:51. > :08:53.Kurdistan. In fact, for any political decisions that Kurdistan
:08:54. > :08:59.will make or has made, it is not going to use military force to
:09:00. > :09:02.enforce these decisions. We believe in dialogue, we believe in a
:09:03. > :09:09.peaceful, democratic negotiation with the federal government. And if
:09:10. > :09:16.there is anything that has to be done in the future, the Kurds will
:09:17. > :09:21.not rely on weapons or do not think of achieving their goals by violence
:09:22. > :09:25.or military means. Who do you think you are fighting for to protect the
:09:26. > :09:29.6.5 million people who live in your autonomous region? Or are you
:09:30. > :09:36.defending the whole of Iraq against the jihadists? Which is it? We are
:09:37. > :09:43.fighting on behalf of the world, not just for Iraq. We are fighting on
:09:44. > :09:45.behalf of the world. This is an organisation that does not recognise
:09:46. > :09:50.any borders, does not have any respect for human rights, does not
:09:51. > :10:01.have any respect for religious or ethnic minorities. We now are
:10:02. > :10:07.hosting 1.2 million by degrees, more than 250,000 Syrian refugees, more
:10:08. > :10:10.than 100,000 questions that have fled from different parts of the
:10:11. > :10:15.country and now are here in Kurdistan, and tens of thousands of
:10:16. > :10:19.other minorities and people and even Sunnis and Arabs that are in
:10:20. > :10:24.Kurdistan. All these people have come to Kurdistan to feel safe and
:10:25. > :10:27.it is our responsibility to protect all of these people, to protect the
:10:28. > :10:33.Kurdistan region, and also contributes to a better situation in
:10:34. > :10:39.Iraq and, as I said, this is a fight, a war that we are fighting on
:10:40. > :10:52.behalf of the entire region, the entire world. And for the whole of
:10:53. > :10:55.Iraq? And all of Iraq, yes. Now, the Kurds have obviously make no
:10:56. > :10:59.pretence that they have had huge issues with the Prime Minister Nouri
:11:00. > :11:04.Al`Maliki, who has been in power for about eight years. You have major
:11:05. > :11:12.animosity towards quite clear. He is seen as a divisive figure by many in
:11:13. > :11:18.the international community. Now, the new president of Iraq, also a
:11:19. > :11:24.Kurd, has nominated a new president from Nouri Al`Maliki's block, Hagar
:11:25. > :11:27.as a baddie, to be Prime Minister. Is that something you welcome? Is
:11:28. > :11:37.this someone you can do business with, Haider al`Abadi? I hope this
:11:38. > :11:41.will be a moment for positive change in the country. There is not a
:11:42. > :11:47.personal problem between Kurdistan and Baghdad or any individual. There
:11:48. > :11:50.is a problem in the system in the country. If you look at what
:11:51. > :11:56.happened in the past, the former prime minister in Iraq did not
:11:57. > :11:59.implement the constitution and was very subjective in terms of dealing
:12:00. > :12:07.with the articles of the constitution. Everything that was
:12:08. > :12:11.very important to the Kurds like the implementation of Article 140, which
:12:12. > :12:16.deals with the disputed territories, or the armament of the Peshmergas or
:12:17. > :12:20.the budget of the Kurdistan region, oil and gas laws, all of these
:12:21. > :12:26.issues were left hanging and they did not implement these articles of
:12:27. > :12:33.the constitution. That led to a deterioration in relations between
:12:34. > :12:37.our capital and Baghdad. Our problem is not really with an individual but
:12:38. > :12:41.with the system. We hope that there will be a different system in
:12:42. > :12:45.Baghdad that will accept the power`sharing and would include all
:12:46. > :12:51.main components of the country in the next government. The Sunnis were
:12:52. > :12:55.outcast, the Kurds were ignored and marginalised systematically. Here,
:12:56. > :13:00.if the new prime minister is coming up with a new plan, a new agenda
:13:01. > :13:05.that would include all components of this country and is willing to share
:13:06. > :13:09.power with everybody and is committed to implement the
:13:10. > :13:15.constitution, I believe there will be a good future for the country and
:13:16. > :13:20.for the cooperation between edible and Baghdad. Would that make it less
:13:21. > :13:23.likely, then, that the Kurds in northern Iraq will not press for
:13:24. > :13:30.independence? The self`determination for the Kurds is a God`given right
:13:31. > :13:34.of the Kurdish people. And it depends on how the situation will
:13:35. > :13:40.evolve in the future. But in terms of whether or not the Kurds will
:13:41. > :13:43.still be thinking of independence, I must tell you that every occurred in
:13:44. > :13:48.their heart believes that they should have the right of
:13:49. > :13:58.self`determination and to make their own choice of how they want to live.
:13:59. > :14:04.Self`determination and autonomy are quite different from independents.
:14:05. > :14:10.You are the son of the President of the Kurdish regional government in
:14:11. > :14:14.Irbil, and your father said, when asked to join a regional
:14:15. > :14:17.government, after recent events in Iraq it has been proven that the
:14:18. > :14:20.Kurdish people could seize the opportunity now. The Kurdistan in
:14:21. > :14:26.people should now determine their future. Do you think that he, or
:14:27. > :14:34.you, want to stay or go from Iraq completely, become independent?
:14:35. > :14:38.Well, let's look at the facts. We are in a country that the Baghdad
:14:39. > :14:46.were Iraqi government does not control all of it. We are neighbours
:14:47. > :14:53.with ISIS, not with Baghdad. We share a 150 kilometres border with
:14:54. > :14:57.ISIS. There is tension between Kurds and Sunnis. So let's see how this
:14:58. > :15:02.situation will lead us to a better Iraq. If, you know, we accepted to
:15:03. > :15:12.be a part of this country according to the Constitution, to be a federal
:15:13. > :15:17.pluralistic country. If this country is going to be the country for all,
:15:18. > :15:24.if everybody feel safe and secure, and there is less tension between
:15:25. > :15:30.Shias and Sunnis, the Kurds are not going to be the one, let's say,
:15:31. > :15:34.making more problems. It is not the Kurds who have torn the country
:15:35. > :15:37.apart. A country is practically divided into three different parts
:15:38. > :15:43.anyway. It is the new responsibility of the Kurds to protect their
:15:44. > :15:48.citizens and their territories. So that will remain to be seen. You
:15:49. > :15:53.have to see how successful Baghdad will be to include the Kurds and
:15:54. > :16:00.Sunnis in the next government. If not, the Kurds will certainly not
:16:01. > :16:04.watch ISIS, to be partners in this country. And they have to make
:16:05. > :16:13.decisions to protect their land and their people. And that has to be...
:16:14. > :16:16.Go ahead, sorry. You say it is up to Baghdad and the other elements in
:16:17. > :16:20.Iraqi society to make unity attractive. But the fact of the
:16:21. > :16:25.matter is that you have already been demonstrating in your region, a
:16:26. > :16:29.great deal of independence when it comes, for instance, to oil. You are
:16:30. > :16:32.looking to sell your oil direct lead to other countries, through the
:16:33. > :16:37.pipeline to Turkey. Turkey, for instance. And also making deals with
:16:38. > :16:41.oil traders and oil companies. And the US has actually put Russia on
:16:42. > :16:47.you, not to do that, and on companies not to buy oil direct feed
:16:48. > :16:56.from you, but to buy it from the central authorities in Baghdad.
:16:57. > :16:59.Kurdistan, or ARG, has not done anything out of the Constitution.
:17:00. > :17:04.The Constitution very clearly states how to deal with the oil and gas.
:17:05. > :17:09.The oil fields are going to be managed in co`ordination by the
:17:10. > :17:13.Federal Goverment, in co`ordination with the regions. All the new fields
:17:14. > :17:15.are going to be managed and controlled by the regional
:17:16. > :17:18.government in co`ordination with the Federal Goverment. The Federal
:17:19. > :17:26.Goverment does not come, you know, forward, to deal with the KRG, to
:17:27. > :17:31.settle this problem. Either way, Iran does not have a law to state
:17:32. > :17:37.that is something legal or illegal by the Kurds. Still there is the old
:17:38. > :17:44.regime's law in place in Iraq. So Iraq does not have a law to accuse
:17:45. > :17:47.the KRG that they are doing anything illegal, and according to the
:17:48. > :17:51.Constitution, everything that the KRG is doing is completely aligned
:17:52. > :17:58.with the Constitution. In terms of the security and the Peshmergas, and
:17:59. > :18:01.everything KRG has done, they have done at exactly the Constitution
:18:02. > :18:05.allows them to do. But unfortunately all the successes that we have seen
:18:06. > :18:09.in Baghdad, did not lead Baghdad, in Kurdistan, was not enough to
:18:10. > :18:14.encourage Baghdad to support Kurdistan. In fact, they to have
:18:15. > :18:20.Kurdistan remain where they are. Because they were not able to be as
:18:21. > :18:23.successful as Kurdistan. But you know, the fact of the matter is,
:18:24. > :18:28.your big supporters, your big allies, the US, have made it clear
:18:29. > :18:34.they want you to remain within a united Iraq. The 4th of July, the US
:18:35. > :18:40.Deputy Secretary of State for the near East said that the best way to
:18:41. > :18:44.go is for the Kurdish region, a region to stay inside Iraq's
:18:45. > :18:49.constitutional framework. The Constitution says very clearly that
:18:50. > :18:53.implementation of this Constitution is the guarantee for the unity of
:18:54. > :18:57.the country. The Constitution has not been respected and has not
:18:58. > :19:00.implemented. So the Kurds have the right to make a decision that is
:19:01. > :19:06.best suitable for their people. However, however, we have to go
:19:07. > :19:10.beyond theoretical solutions to the problems in Iraq. There are some
:19:11. > :19:16.serious problems that have to be addressed, and there has to be brave
:19:17. > :19:17.decisions made. There is no trust between different components this
:19:18. > :19:23.country. They don't trust each other, and everybody is afraid that
:19:24. > :19:27.the other side is going to marginalise or to retaliate against
:19:28. > :19:34.the other. So if anyone wants to have a permanent solution for Iraq,
:19:35. > :19:41.they have to talk seriously to all Shias Kurds, and Sunnis, and find a
:19:42. > :19:44.common denominator we will all be comfortable living together. If that
:19:45. > :19:49.is in the former Federation, or if it is in the form of Confederation
:19:50. > :19:52.of all falls parade in, but any outside theoretical solution is not
:19:53. > :19:56.going to solve the problem, in fact it is going to make it more
:19:57. > :20:01.combat`ready. Now you've got these issues all going on in Iraq. But the
:20:02. > :20:04.matter that is getting a great deal of attention of course is this
:20:05. > :20:08.terrible humanitarian crisis. You have explained that you up playing
:20:09. > :20:14.host to many people fleeing persecution and violence from the
:20:15. > :20:23.jihadists, you have limited resources to help. We have heard
:20:24. > :20:26.dreadful stories, especially from Yazidis fleeing the jihadists, what
:20:27. > :20:28.can you tell us about the humanitarian situation for the
:20:29. > :20:35.thousands stranded in the mountains? Well, as you know, thousands of
:20:36. > :20:42.families that managed to escape, to go to the mountains, are now there.
:20:43. > :20:49.That they are protected by the units of the Peshmergas, but remained and
:20:50. > :20:53.stayed with them. In fact, they have stopped ISIS from chasing them to
:20:54. > :20:58.the mountains. They are short of food and water, and thankfully the
:20:59. > :21:01.US has made a decision to drop aid to those people. In the UK has also
:21:02. > :21:04.contributed to that in some other European countries we understand our
:21:05. > :21:12.country bidding to providing aid to those people, in the Mt. But these
:21:13. > :21:16.are not the only ones that are in trouble. There are still several
:21:17. > :21:23.other villages and towns around the Mt that are surrounded by ISIS, and
:21:24. > :21:28.are threatened to, you know, be persecuted. So there is a desperate
:21:29. > :21:32.need for humanitarian aid for those people, and their evacuation to
:21:33. > :21:38.safety. And also airstrikes and military action taken against those
:21:39. > :21:45.ISIS units who are in and around the area, surrounding those villages and
:21:46. > :21:54.towns. And that is ongoing. In fact in other towns and villages close to
:21:55. > :21:58.Mosul, thousands of families have fled to Kurdistan to feel safer and
:21:59. > :22:04.more secure in those areas. And ISIS is not going to stop, and they will
:22:05. > :22:07.try to come to all of the areas if they came, so it is our
:22:08. > :22:19.responsibility to stop them if we can. But we certainly need both
:22:20. > :22:24.humanitarian aid for these refugees, or IDPs, to stop them from
:22:25. > :22:35.advancing. Finally, the humanitarian crisis, can Iraq as we all know it
:22:36. > :22:43.survive all of this? I hope it will survive, in one form or another,
:22:44. > :22:47.because failure and being defeated by ISIS is going to be a disaster,
:22:48. > :22:52.and is going to create a much bigger problem for the region and for the
:22:53. > :22:55.world. You know that ISIS is an organisation that has attracted
:22:56. > :23:01.foreign fighters from all over the world, and these people are not
:23:02. > :23:04.going to stay here in Iraq. They will go stronger, and they will go
:23:05. > :23:07.back to their countries of origin and pose the same sort of threat to
:23:08. > :23:12.those countries. If they succeed in Iraq, they are just going to be a
:23:13. > :23:25.much bigger problem for the world to deal with it later. Masrour Barzani,
:23:26. > :23:43.in Irbil, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.
:23:44. > :23:49.Hello there. At this time of day we tend to dip a toe in the water a
:23:50. > :23:52.little further ahead. Look at what is going to happen over the next ten
:23:53. > :23:57.days, and the trends that could affect as across the British Isles.
:23:58. > :23:58.More on that in just a moment, but for the here and now