Abdullah Abdullah - Afghan Presidential Candidate

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:00:00. > :00:07.in Ilminster in Somerset. That is it. You are up to date. Now

:00:08. > :00:11.on BBC News, HARDtalk. Welcome to HardTalk. I'm Stephen

:00:12. > :00:13.Sackur. Afghanistan's presidential election

:00:14. > :00:18.was supposed to mark the country's progress, instead it threatens to

:00:19. > :00:20.inflict new wounds. In case you have forgotten, the long drawn out

:00:21. > :00:23.process appeared to deliver a second round victory to Ashraf Ghani, but

:00:24. > :00:34.his rival Abdullah Abdullah alleged massive fraud and the vote count is

:00:35. > :00:38.under review. The Americans are urging the two rivals to share

:00:39. > :00:40.power. My guest is Abdullah Abdullah. Is he currently acting in

:00:41. > :01:14.Afghanistan's interest or his own? Dr Abdullah Abdullah in Kabul,

:01:15. > :01:17.welcome to HardTalk. Thank you, Stephen. Afghanistan, I think you

:01:18. > :01:30.would agree, is in a dangerous form of political limbo right now. When

:01:31. > :01:34.do you believe that limbo will end? Hopefully there are two processes. A

:01:35. > :01:42.political one as well as a technical one, which is the audit which is

:01:43. > :01:46.under way. That will be completed sooner rather than later. But I

:01:47. > :01:49.don't think there is anybody who can tell you precisely how long it will

:01:50. > :01:53.continue. But our goal is... We have agreed to a goal of putting an end

:01:54. > :02:07.to it, hopefully, in two to three weeks' time. You say two to three

:02:08. > :02:13.weeks' time. The initial talk was that by the end of this current

:02:14. > :02:16.week, there could be a resolution. There could be an official audited

:02:17. > :02:23.vote tally. Are you saying this is now going to stretch for several

:02:24. > :02:31.weeks? It's a technical process which we can't call off. The purpose

:02:32. > :02:34.of the audit is to have a thorough audit of all the papers throughout

:02:35. > :02:37.the country. We have to have clean votes, clean legitimate results. If

:02:38. > :02:53.it takes time, it is worthwhile, but we are not wasting any time. Myself

:02:54. > :02:57.and my team have been collaborating and cooperating to help to speed it

:02:58. > :03:00.up. There is not much we can do. As you say, the desired outcome is a

:03:01. > :03:07.clean result, an undisputed election result. Can you tell me

:03:08. > :03:10.categorically that whether it takes two weeks or three, when this

:03:11. > :03:16.audited, official result comes out, you will accept it? I will accept

:03:17. > :03:26.the outcome of a legitimate, transparent audit, categorically.

:03:27. > :03:37.Once one enters into the process of election, he makes a commitment that

:03:38. > :03:40.he will accept a legitimate outcome. Unless somebody is making trouble

:03:41. > :03:44.for their own country. Let me stop you for a second. You have given me

:03:45. > :03:51.quite a complicated answer to a very simple question. You have watched

:03:52. > :03:55.the audit unfold. You have said you've cooperated with it. You know

:03:56. > :03:58.how it is being done. Yes or no? Given the way that the audit has

:03:59. > :04:06.gone, will you accept the result when it is announced? The audit is

:04:07. > :04:10.halfway through the process. Every single day, we identify a problem

:04:11. > :04:17.and we raise it with the UN, because this audit is internationally

:04:18. > :04:20.supervised. They take care of it. It is in daily ways that we are

:04:21. > :04:27.monitoring it, our agents are there, corrections are being made. But at

:04:28. > :04:30.the same time, there is a commission involved that was involved in the

:04:31. > :04:36.process of the elections earlier that was part of massive fraud. That

:04:37. > :04:48.commission is still there. From time to time, we see problems there. What

:04:49. > :04:51.I'm saying is that a legitimate and transparent audit was promised. If

:04:52. > :04:54.it is delivered... So far there have been problems, but we have been very

:04:55. > :04:59.patient in terms of trying to co`operate and find ways of

:05:00. > :05:08.correction of the process. That is how it has gone so far. It is

:05:09. > :05:12.halfway down the road at the moment. Half the way? Goodness me, that is

:05:13. > :05:15.taking a long time, then, if you are only halfway through. The fact is, I

:05:16. > :05:18.suppose, if any outside observer looked at this objectively, the

:05:19. > :05:21.likelihood is, you are going to be the loser. The initial preliminary

:05:22. > :05:24.result had Ashraf Ghani winning by one million votes pretty much out of

:05:25. > :05:28.8.1 million votes cast. It is highly unlikely, is it not, that that sort

:05:29. > :05:33.of victory for Ashraf Ghani is going to be overturned in a vote audit?

:05:34. > :05:36.Once all the ballot papers have been audited, it means there are no

:05:37. > :05:39.second round results, and the results which were announced were

:05:40. > :05:41.not only disputed by me but by everybody else. They accepted that

:05:42. > :06:05.it was a massively fraudulent announcement. That is why 23,000

:06:06. > :06:08.ballot boxes are being audited. So forget about the initial results.

:06:09. > :06:11.Think of the first round elections when there was another outcome out

:06:12. > :06:15.of that. So don't make a judgement. Nobody is here to make a judgement

:06:16. > :06:18.about it. The massive fraud has taken place. When I say industrial

:06:19. > :06:20.scale fraud, it is not an exaggeration. On a daily basis, the

:06:21. > :06:28.international observers are witnessing this. So in order to

:06:29. > :06:30.recover the process, we accept that the internationally supervised

:06:31. > :06:36.audit, which is under way and we have to wait for the results of it.

:06:37. > :06:39.It just seems a little ironic that you are telling me and, indeed, the

:06:40. > :06:42.whole world not to rush to judgement, when it was you who

:06:43. > :06:46.rushed to judgement back on July eighth and said that you had won the

:06:47. > :06:53.election and that only a massive vote rigged coup against the Afghan

:06:54. > :06:57.people had deprived you of victory. So the person doing most of the

:06:58. > :07:00.prejudging is you. The issue was the voter turnout, which was announced

:07:01. > :07:03.as seven million at the beginning, and later on eight million, that was

:07:04. > :07:15.much more than the first round results. By every account, everybody

:07:16. > :07:18.involved in the elections, those who have watched it closely, they know

:07:19. > :07:35.this was a massively exaggerated number by millions. So it was not

:07:36. > :07:38.rocket science to look at it and to find out. We had agents throughout

:07:39. > :07:44.the country. We have people who have supported us throughout the country.

:07:45. > :07:47.There were reports of ballot boxes being stuffed one day before the

:07:48. > :07:50.elections. There is documented proof of that. Many of your supporters and

:07:51. > :07:56.allies have, again, indulged in forms of prejudging. I am thinking

:07:57. > :07:58.of one of your key supporters, Attah Mohammed Noor. He is a former

:07:59. > :08:04.militia leader, a former governor. He said on August 14, in his view,

:08:05. > :08:08.there was no doubt you had won. He said if the vote count was also

:08:09. > :08:12.fraudulent, he said, we will not bow down and accept this result. We will

:08:13. > :08:14.have a big civil uprising and occupy government building and

:08:15. > :08:21.institutions. We will not recognise the new government. Will you disown

:08:22. > :08:24.his inflammatory words now? Apart from the details that Governor Attah

:08:25. > :08:35.has gone through, what is the suggestion? It's a suggestion that

:08:36. > :08:37.if it was fraudulent and it was proved to be fraudulent and

:08:38. > :08:46.everybody accepts that, of course not. If I may interpret his words

:08:47. > :08:50.for him, and he's not here to dispute it, it seems to me that what

:08:51. > :08:53.he is saying is that unless you are declared the winner, which in his

:08:54. > :08:59.view is the only right outcome, unless that happens, he says there

:09:00. > :09:03.will be a big civil uprising. I just wonder if you are now prepared to

:09:04. > :09:10.disown his words. Because it seems to me, those words are deeply

:09:11. > :09:13.inflammatory. I would say that he has said, and I have heard the

:09:14. > :09:17.interview first hand, that if the audit was one`sided, he said if it

:09:18. > :09:25.was a show, if it was fraudulent, then we would not accept it. So I

:09:26. > :09:30.don't think there is much to interpret it further. There is no

:09:31. > :09:33.doubt that this time around it is critical that Afghanistan will not

:09:34. > :09:36.have another chance, that the audit is carried out with the most care

:09:37. > :09:39.and attention that is expected. The outcome of a thorough audit will be

:09:40. > :09:52.accepted by all of us, not only myself. You have hedged and hedged

:09:53. > :09:55.throughout this interview so far about whether the audit, in your

:09:56. > :09:59.view, is going to deserve the credit of being fair, you are suggested to

:10:00. > :10:03.me that if, in the end, you decide it is not fair, you with your allies

:10:04. > :10:14.will call for a big civil uprising, the occupying of government

:10:15. > :10:17.buildings and institutions. You think that would be the right

:10:18. > :10:21.strategy, do you? I will not go through those details, as I have

:10:22. > :10:24.told you. Our hope is that now the whole world, the international

:10:25. > :10:36.community has mobilised a lot of resources. There are hundreds of

:10:37. > :10:43.observers in place. There are also challenges. We hope that we will be

:10:44. > :10:46.able to overcome those challenges. Then we have the outcome of the

:10:47. > :10:51.audit that is legitimate and transparent and acceptable to all.

:10:52. > :10:53.How can I put this diplomatically? You have been rapped over the

:10:54. > :10:57.knuckles, haven't you, by President Barack Obama? I believe he made a

:10:58. > :10:59.direct phone call to you, which according to the US Ambassador to

:11:00. > :11:02.Afghanistan included the caution that you mustn't move pre`emptively

:11:03. > :11:10.in an unconstitutional fashion. What is it like to be rebuked by the

:11:11. > :11:15.United States President? Did you take it seriously? The issue was

:11:16. > :11:17.Afghanistan was on the verge of a crisis, a serious crisis, because

:11:18. > :11:22.the electoral process was not working. And the people were asking

:11:23. > :11:30.for demonstrations, and there were peaceful demonstrations as well.

:11:31. > :11:34.There were strikes. People stayed in tents for many days. The situation

:11:35. > :11:37.became serious by the hour. Then I received a call from the Secretary

:11:38. > :11:49.of State John Kerry. Then later a phone call from President Obama. Of

:11:50. > :11:52.course they promised that they recognised that there was massive

:11:53. > :11:55.fraud and there was a need for a correction of the process and also

:11:56. > :11:59.for a thorough audit, and they promised that audit would take place

:12:00. > :12:04.in order to clean the results of the elections. And that was the message

:12:05. > :12:23.that I received. At the same time, they said Afghanistan was in need of

:12:24. > :12:27.unity. They encourage the idea of the formation of a national unity

:12:28. > :12:30.government. Those details came out later on during our meetings with

:12:31. > :12:33.Secretary Kerry, which we also considered in our interests, and it

:12:34. > :12:34.was a timely intervention, and we welcomed it. Let's talk more about

:12:35. > :12:50.that. You and Ashraf Ghani, the rivals,

:12:51. > :12:52.you both agreed to sign what was described as a power`sharing

:12:53. > :12:55.agreement. There seem to be a commitment that whoever won would

:12:56. > :12:59.agree to work with the loser, and appoint that man to a new post of

:13:00. > :13:15.chief executive, and there would be a dual power arrangement. Can you

:13:16. > :13:18.commit to that? We are committed to a political agreement, to be

:13:19. > :13:22.framework of a political agreement, which was agreed upon by both of us

:13:23. > :13:26.a few weeks ago. It was reinforced once again by the joint communique,

:13:27. > :13:36.which we signed a few days ago, and our teams are working together. So,

:13:37. > :13:38.to be absolutely clear for everyone around the world, if you are,

:13:39. > :13:41.ultimately, declared the winner, Ashraf Ghani will be appointed chief

:13:42. > :13:57.executive, and you will share power with him? Absolutely. That is

:13:58. > :14:00.between the two teams, and the agreement is not finalised in all

:14:01. > :14:12.its details, but that principle was agreed upon between us, and that is

:14:13. > :14:15.what we are going to do. It seems to me that you and your team sometimes

:14:16. > :14:22.suspect that the US is not acting as an honest broker. That the US wants

:14:23. > :14:25.Ashraf Ghani to be the next President of Afghanistan. Is that

:14:26. > :14:30.right? I have not made that claim. Had I had that idea... Do you feel

:14:31. > :14:34.that is the case? Do you feel that the Washington establishment... Yes,

:14:35. > :14:36.of course. You feel that the Washington establishment wants

:14:37. > :14:43.Ashraf Ghani to be the next President? No, I don't think so.

:14:44. > :14:45.Because I think they are an honest broker, I welcome their

:14:46. > :14:48.intervention, and they have been trying to make the audit process

:14:49. > :14:52.work, they have been encouraging the political process to work, and from

:14:53. > :14:56.now onwards it is for us, as the Afghans, to see in the political

:14:57. > :15:10.framework. It will work only with both sides, if both sides equally

:15:11. > :15:13.want it to happen. That is based on the realisation of the need for

:15:14. > :15:16.national unity post elections, post` announcement of the audit outcome,

:15:17. > :15:20.in order for Afghanistan to be able to deal with the challenges we will

:15:21. > :15:25.be faced with in the coming few years, and utilise the opportunities

:15:26. > :15:30.which are there. In fact, it is based on the idea of a win`win

:15:31. > :15:33.situation for all of us, as Afghans. You talk about the challenges, and

:15:34. > :15:39.Afghanistan needing a leader who can deal with the massive challenges

:15:40. > :15:50.facing the country. I think the Americans are particularly concerned

:15:51. > :15:53.as well. They are concerned about the ongoing security challenge, and

:15:54. > :15:58.the massive challenge of cleaning up Afghanistan's government. Of rooting

:15:59. > :16:02.out the endemic corruption. Ashraf Ghani on both counts says, my hands

:16:03. > :16:05.are clean, I have never been associated with warlordism, and I

:16:06. > :16:11.have a record, not least as finance minister of Afghanistan, of standing

:16:12. > :16:14.up to corruption. Can you credibly say the same thing, that you have a

:16:15. > :16:25.record on both warlordism and corruption that would make you a

:16:26. > :16:28.suitable president for Afghanistan? Proudly, incredibly so, I was part

:16:29. > :16:31.of the resistance against the Soviet Union 30 years ago as a medical

:16:32. > :16:49.doctor. I joined the resistance against the Soviet Union. The

:16:50. > :16:52.occupation ended in Afghanistan, and I was part of the government and

:16:53. > :16:57.part of the resistance against Taliban and terrorism in Al Qaeda in

:16:58. > :17:01.Afghanistan. My hands, in working with the government, are as clean as

:17:02. > :17:05.they could be. There is nothing that I will... There is nothing that will

:17:06. > :17:11.make me be ashamed of my past, which is an association with national

:17:12. > :17:15.resistance in Afghanistan. The shadow over you is that you have a

:17:16. > :17:17.long association with a whole bunch of warlords from the Northern

:17:18. > :17:20.Alliance and many associates who have backed your election campaign,

:17:21. > :17:22.who have a long record of warlordism. Also, you have

:17:23. > :17:25.associates who again have been associated with corruption inside

:17:26. > :17:40.the government over the last decade or more. Are you sure your record

:17:41. > :17:43.really stands up to scrutiny? The point is that this issue of

:17:44. > :17:47.warlordism has been used as an excuse in many ways, and it is an

:17:48. > :17:54.excuse in many ways, and it is misled notion in many ways. If you

:17:55. > :18:01.call someone a warlord, I think it is a very misleading notion. Reading

:18:02. > :18:19.the history of Afghanistan, I proudly say this. Because of that, I

:18:20. > :18:22.had most votes in the first round of the elections, and people from

:18:23. > :18:26.Afghanistan from all walks of life have supported me. From here, with

:18:27. > :18:30.all due respect, I think some more education is needed in order to look

:18:31. > :18:37.at the history of the country and then judge personalities based on

:18:38. > :18:40.it. I am always ready for more education, but it seems to me there

:18:41. > :18:44.is an interesting challenge facing the new leader of Afghanistan,

:18:45. > :18:51.whoever he is, and that is how to end the endless war with the

:18:52. > :18:56.Taliban. How to bring the conflict to a conclusion. If one looks at the

:18:57. > :18:59.record you have with the Taliban, they regard you as an enemy. They

:19:00. > :19:03.don't necessarily regard Ashraf Ghani in the same way, and if one is

:19:04. > :19:06.to look for a leader who perhaps can end the conflict, draw the Taliban

:19:07. > :19:12.into politics and into a negotiated settlement, it will probably be him,

:19:13. > :19:23.not you. Who is the Taliban fighting against at this moment? President

:19:24. > :19:26.Hamid Karzai and his government. And myself and Ashraf Ghani, we were

:19:27. > :19:39.part of the government, and the Taliban started fighting against us.

:19:40. > :19:42.In the end, the Taliban will have to make peace with the government of

:19:43. > :19:54.Afghanistan who have been voted for by the people of Afghanistan, if

:19:55. > :19:59.they want to achieve peace. What is your mindset right now about the

:20:00. > :20:03.Taliban? Do you believe that they actually want to play a part in a

:20:04. > :20:06.political process, to lay down the arms and play a political role, or

:20:07. > :20:10.do you believe that their intentions are still military and they have to

:20:11. > :20:22.be faced down by force by the Afghan government? My perception is, my

:20:23. > :20:25.belief is, that unfortunately they believe that they can tackle the

:20:26. > :20:28.government and bring the state down and replace it with their own remit,

:20:29. > :20:40.their own interpretation of Islam, which Afghanistan's people have

:20:41. > :20:44.experienced a few years ago. They are not, the majority of them have

:20:45. > :20:47.not come to the conclusion that they have to lay down their arms and take

:20:48. > :20:50.the path of peace. That does not suggest that a future Afghan

:20:51. > :20:52.government shouldn't keep the door open for negotiations with the

:20:53. > :21:06.Taliban, with the hope that... Ashraf Ghani has indicated he wants

:21:07. > :21:17.to reach out. Do you want to reach out? If you are the next President

:21:18. > :21:20.of Afghanistan, do you want to reach out to the Taliban and draw them

:21:21. > :21:24.into a process? Absolutely. There needs to be a political process, but

:21:25. > :21:27.whether it is, whoever is the leader of the country in the future will be

:21:28. > :21:30.faced with the same problems that the current government faces.

:21:31. > :21:32.Unfortunately, the fact that they believe, the Taliban believe, that

:21:33. > :21:36.they can tackle the government, they can bring the state down and replace

:21:37. > :21:39.it with their own Islamic State, that belief has made them continue

:21:40. > :21:41.fighting in the path of violence rather than seizing the opportunity

:21:42. > :21:51.for negotiations and peace and reconciliation. It is an

:21:52. > :21:56.extraordinarily sensitive time in Afghanistan today. Can you guarantee

:21:57. > :22:01.your people you will act in the country's best interests over the

:22:02. > :22:07.coming weeks, not just your own? Absolutely. There is nothing more

:22:08. > :22:10.than the interests of the people of Afghanistan or the interests of the

:22:11. > :22:15.country, and this has been the driving force behind my effort. If

:22:16. > :22:18.we are trying to clean out the results, the outcome of the

:22:19. > :22:32.elections, that is also in the best interests of our people. Abdullah

:22:33. > :23:04.Abdullah, we have to end there. Thank you for being on HARDtalk.

:23:05. > :23:12.It looks like Wednesday will be a reasonably sunny day, and mostly

:23:13. > :23:16.dry. There will be light winds and clear skies to take us into the

:23:17. > :23:18.morning, which means it is chilly. We are looking at temperatures

:23:19. > :23:19.around