0:00:07 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:14Do Christians have a future in the Arab world?
0:00:14 > 0:00:17It's a question raised with a new sense of urgency
0:00:17 > 0:00:22as an extraordinarily violent brand of jihadi extremism sweeps through
0:00:22 > 0:00:24Syria and Iraq.
0:00:24 > 0:00:29Tens of thousands of Christians, along with other minorities,
0:00:29 > 0:00:31have been forced from their homes, hundreds murdered.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35Right across the region, Christians are fearful.
0:00:35 > 0:00:40My guest is Bishop Angaelos of the Egyptian Coptic Church.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42What can the outside world do to protect
0:00:42 > 0:00:51the Arab Christian tradition?
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Bishop Angaelos, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:15 > 0:01:16Thank you.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21I have referred to what is happening in Iraq and Syria today.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25Has that engendered a new level of fear amongst Christians
0:01:25 > 0:01:27across the Middle East?
0:01:27 > 0:01:30It presents a different dynamic.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34Christians throughout the centuries have faced challenges.
0:01:34 > 0:01:41In particular, over the last few months, it has reached a new level.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43But is it qualitatively different?
0:01:43 > 0:01:47We have seen political Islam for decades in different forms
0:01:47 > 0:01:48in the Middle East.
0:01:48 > 0:01:49Is there something qualitatively different
0:01:49 > 0:01:52in what is happening today?
0:01:52 > 0:01:58We haven't seen an exercising of a caliphate in recent history.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02We haven't seen the direct imposition of jizya
0:02:02 > 0:02:05in recent history and I think the formalisation
0:02:05 > 0:02:12of those, unless they are reacted to, will create viable models to be
0:02:12 > 0:02:13replicated throughout the region.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17You talk about the jizya, the taxation or the demand that
0:02:17 > 0:02:20if taxes are not paid, Christians must flee or face death
0:02:20 > 0:02:23in certain circumstances.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26What we have learnt about the treatment of Christian
0:02:26 > 0:02:29communities and, it should be said, other minorities like the Yazidis
0:02:29 > 0:02:33too, is so horrific, so shocking, that I come back to this point.
0:02:33 > 0:02:40If you are a Christian living, say, in the West Bank or in Egypt today,
0:02:40 > 0:02:44are you looking at what is happening there and are you thinking,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47"I need to be worried about this"?
0:02:47 > 0:02:52Throughout the region, Egypt has a specific dynamic.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54Because the vast bulk of Christians are in Egypt,
0:02:54 > 0:03:01we are talking about millions, the dynamic is less intense.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05But when you look at countries like Syria, Iraq, the West Bank,
0:03:05 > 0:03:11throughout the Middle East, people must be worried.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14You have referred in the recent past to the incredible
0:03:14 > 0:03:17silence of the international community in the face of persecution
0:03:17 > 0:03:19of minorities in the Middle East.
0:03:19 > 0:03:25It is a damning statement.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29When we look at Iraq hitting the headlines in the last few weeks,
0:03:29 > 0:03:33people don't realise that Mosul was overtaken in June and for a long
0:03:33 > 0:03:37time, no one was saying anything.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41I was happy last week to see, suddenly, the spotlight cast on it.
0:03:41 > 0:03:46But whether it was in Mosul or earlier in Syria in certain areas,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50or even what happened in Egypt one year ago, in August, when churches
0:03:50 > 0:03:54were burnt and attacked, there has been an incredible silence.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58The problem is, so much is happening in the region that we tend to have
0:03:58 > 0:04:01a single focus on a single area.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05Once something happens, it moves to the next area.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07We don't address the past any more and it becomes
0:04:07 > 0:04:09the past very quickly.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13It has become an active debate in the Christian community in the UK.
0:04:13 > 0:04:20The Bishop of Leeds very recently wrote a letter to
0:04:20 > 0:04:23Prime Minister David Cameron, saying that we in Britain don't seem to
0:04:23 > 0:04:26have a coherent or comprehensive approach to Islamist extremism.
0:04:26 > 0:04:30I am sure that you saw those words, do you think they were correct?
0:04:30 > 0:04:36I saw the Bishop's letter, as I saw the Prime Minister's letter
0:04:36 > 0:04:38this week.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40In which he talked about a generational struggle.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42He said "A generational struggle against a
0:04:42 > 0:04:44poisonous extremist ideology".
0:04:44 > 0:04:47He seemed to be saying "I get it".
0:04:47 > 0:04:50Do you think politicians in the West, in nominally Christian
0:04:50 > 0:04:53countries, get it ?
0:04:53 > 0:05:04They get it when it is a risk to their own countries.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07But as long as it is at arm's length, elsewhere, less so.
0:05:07 > 0:05:08That is understandable.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10Politicians' primary objective is the securing of their own nations.
0:05:10 > 0:05:16But when you look at the global community, looking at the needs
0:05:16 > 0:05:19of places, for instance, in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, where people cannot
0:05:19 > 0:05:23represent themselves, I am not talking about boots on the ground as
0:05:23 > 0:05:25we spoke about or even about intervention,
0:05:25 > 0:05:28I am speaking about saving, "This is wrong and something needs
0:05:28 > 0:05:34to be done" and having, as you say, a coherent and holistic approach.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37You cannot have policy on one hand, humanitarian aid on another,
0:05:37 > 0:05:41interreligious dialogue on the third and then have no
0:05:41 > 0:05:44correlation between them.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46Isn't this where church leaders, Christian church leaders,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49get into a tangle?
0:05:49 > 0:05:53In the recent past, the Church has made a strong stand
0:05:53 > 0:05:57against military interventions, led, I suppose, by the Pope and
0:05:57 > 0:06:01the Vatican, who have stuck to this idea for years that, "Never again,
0:06:01 > 0:06:04war", which has been their mantra.
0:06:04 > 0:06:08Now that Christians are specifically being targeted, it looks as though
0:06:08 > 0:06:11some Christian leaders, maybe even the Vatican too, are revisiting
0:06:11 > 0:06:27whether the mantra should always apply, particularly when Christians
0:06:27 > 0:06:33themselves are in direct danger.
0:06:33 > 0:06:34I know
0:06:34 > 0:06:38for a fact and I speak about Egypt because that is what I know most
0:06:38 > 0:06:40about, I would never have asked for external military intervention
0:06:40 > 0:06:41because that won't work.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43Unless you have a solution from within.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45Sometimes, when innocent civilians, in this case, civilians targeted
0:06:45 > 0:06:47because of their religion, which happens to be Christian in
0:06:47 > 0:06:50this case, what else is there but military intervention to protect?
0:06:50 > 0:06:52First and foremost, we need to protect them by moving
0:06:52 > 0:06:54them and securing where they are.
0:06:54 > 0:06:55I am not a military strategist.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57It might be necessary sometimes.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01It isn't something I would ask for as a first port of call.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05If there is a peaceful solution, won by reconciliation, bringing
0:07:05 > 0:07:16people together to understand...
0:07:16 > 0:07:18Coming to my opening question on the qualitative difference
0:07:18 > 0:07:21when we look at the Islamic State movement, what kind of dialogue,
0:07:21 > 0:07:24negotiation, could there be with the Islamic State?
0:07:24 > 0:07:28From what I read and see, I think they are making it clear that there
0:07:28 > 0:07:39is no realm for reconciliation or reaching out because
0:07:39 > 0:07:42the perspective becomes narrow, it isn't just Christians or
0:07:42 > 0:07:44minorities, it is other Muslims who are being targeted.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Unless you fit into the tight mould of what they see Islam should be
0:07:47 > 0:07:50in the area, even if you are Muslim, you will be targeted.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53Isn't this where you, and I know that you have travelled
0:07:53 > 0:07:55the world preaching reconciliation and interfaith dialogue, isn't this
0:07:55 > 0:08:12where you come up, with your high-minded Christian values, run
0:08:12 > 0:08:15into reality and reality doesn't work in the way you would like it
0:08:15 > 0:08:21to?
0:08:21 > 0:08:24I would say of course there is that reality but also, we
0:08:24 > 0:08:26would live with the ideal of peace.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28It's not up to me to advocate for war.
0:08:28 > 0:08:29I present a peaceful solution.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31The war solution is for other people.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33I am always the one who presents a different solution.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36You risk the danger of failing your people if you say that you represent
0:08:36 > 0:08:39dialogue, talk, reconciliation as a solution and yet in the same breath
0:08:39 > 0:08:42you recognise that people you are dealing with are not interested in
0:08:42 > 0:08:44that, you run the risk of fundamentally
0:08:44 > 0:08:45failing your community.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47The realism is that dialogue and reconciliation only happens
0:08:47 > 0:08:50when all parties are open, you can't have dialogue with one party
0:08:50 > 0:08:53alone, it only works when everyone wants to come to the table.
0:08:53 > 0:08:58Dialogue and reconciliation only happens when there is conflict.
0:08:58 > 0:09:05Unless people want a solution about conflict, then if they have burnt
0:09:05 > 0:09:07those bridges, and the final...
0:09:07 > 0:09:08Which they have.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10The final solution is that now we are securing territories
0:09:10 > 0:09:13and the politicians decide to have a military intervention,
0:09:13 > 0:09:16that is within their prerogative.
0:09:16 > 0:09:21You are washing your hands of giving any commentary upon it, though you
0:09:21 > 0:09:24are suggesting sort of that there are circumstances in which military
0:09:24 > 0:09:25intervention has to happen.
0:09:25 > 0:09:32I am not washing my hands, I am commenting on where I can,
0:09:32 > 0:09:34my remit is not on military intervention but on representing
0:09:34 > 0:09:37peace and giving that option.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40I also understand that within any state, there are various arms.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45Religion and politics shouldn't mix.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Interesting you say that, because I will interrupt you to put
0:09:48 > 0:09:51the words of the Pope, Pope Francis, to you, because he is wrestling
0:09:51 > 0:09:53with this as you are too.
0:09:53 > 0:10:05He said, where there is an unjust aggression, I can only say
0:10:05 > 0:10:19that it is licit, his word, licit to stop the aggressor.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23I underscore the word stop.
0:10:23 > 0:10:24I can't comment.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27You and he are falling short of what most ordinary people
0:10:27 > 0:10:30listening to that would think ought to be said, which is that in certain
0:10:30 > 0:10:32specific circumstances, military intervention is the only way.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34Countries have armies and there is military intervention
0:10:34 > 0:10:36when it is needed.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40No one is saying there should never be military intervention.
0:10:40 > 0:10:42What we say is that it shouldn't be a primary or
0:10:42 > 0:10:47even secondary approach.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50When people are being targeted and they need to be secured, then they'd
0:10:50 > 0:10:52need to be secured at whatever cost.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55Let's flip this around and think about this from the point of view of
0:10:55 > 0:10:59decision-makers in Western capitals, Washington, DC, London as well.
0:10:59 > 0:11:07Do you think that there is some sort of extra obligation upon Western,
0:11:07 > 0:11:18nominally Christian countries, to look out for, to intervene and to
0:11:18 > 0:11:21protect Christians in dire straits as in Iraq or Syria today?
0:11:21 > 0:11:30There is an obligation to apply principles we
0:11:30 > 0:11:32are supposed to live by, whether it is for Christians...
0:11:32 > 0:11:45You make no distinction between what is happening to Christians or
0:11:45 > 0:11:46other minority sects,
0:11:46 > 0:11:47or indeed she at pot
0:11:47 > 0:11:50You say that there is no special relationship case between Western
0:11:50 > 0:11:52Christian countries and Christian communities in trouble in the Middle
0:11:52 > 0:11:53East? I don't think so.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56First of all, a Christian country, that term, doesn't make sense.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59Countries cannot be Christian or Muslim.
0:11:59 > 0:12:04They might have a Christian ethos or background,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07but if we apply Christian principles, then they don't look
0:12:07 > 0:12:09at anyone with a specific lens.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Christianity looks at everyone equally and the protection of human
0:12:12 > 0:12:17rights and civil liberties equally.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21Interesting you say that, because I am thinking in my mind as you speak
0:12:21 > 0:12:30of the attitude taken over many decades by the Israeli government
0:12:30 > 0:12:32when it comes to the persecution of Jews, when we think
0:12:32 > 0:12:35of the Israeli state in the 1940s, the government was extraordinarily
0:12:35 > 0:12:37interventionist in trying to protect and indeed rescue Jews
0:12:37 > 0:12:41in various Arab countries who were facing direct persecution.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45They saw it as a duty to bring these people in and to save them.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47France, today, has talked about its willingness to take, through the
0:12:47 > 0:12:57asylum system, Christians from Iraq.
0:12:57 > 0:12:58But you are saying that you don't see
0:12:58 > 0:13:03there is an obligation for Christian countries to take that step?
0:13:03 > 0:13:06I struggle with the term Christian countries.
0:13:06 > 0:13:07Countries in the West, with the possibilities
0:13:07 > 0:13:10of taking asylum seekers, they should open their doors to anyone
0:13:10 > 0:13:12with a credible case to come in.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14Of course, you put priority on where the
0:13:14 > 0:13:17priority is greatest.
0:13:17 > 0:13:22In the Middle East, it is obvious and irrefutable that the major
0:13:22 > 0:13:31persecution is on Christians.
0:13:31 > 0:13:36So you would give them more assistance
0:13:36 > 0:13:38and open the doors more because we need to remember that
0:13:38 > 0:13:48in the past years, when Christians were persecuted in a Middle Eastern
0:13:48 > 0:13:55country, they moved to another.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57Again, controversial subject amongst Christian communities in the UK.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00The Bishop of Leeds in his letter to David Cameron said
0:14:00 > 0:14:02he was very uneasy about the increasing silence about
0:14:02 > 0:14:05the plight of tens of thousands of Christians who have been displaced,
0:14:05 > 0:14:06driven from their homeland.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09He says they seem to have fallen from consciousness in the UK and I
0:14:09 > 0:14:10wonder why, he asked.
0:14:10 > 0:14:16Why is it their plight appears less regarded than that of others?
0:14:16 > 0:14:22We have become desensitised and I think that we sometimes have almost
0:14:22 > 0:14:25a positive discrimination, because of a post-colonial mindset, where
0:14:25 > 0:14:29we see ourselves as a Christian country, we see if we stand up for
0:14:29 > 0:14:31Christians, it is almost something that is inappropriate, so we stand
0:14:31 > 0:14:34up for other minorities.
0:14:34 > 0:14:38If we took off those glasses and looked at need...
0:14:38 > 0:14:42There is a difference between opening doors to refugees
0:14:42 > 0:14:44and some people calling for getting all of the Christians
0:14:44 > 0:14:55out of the Middle East, which I think would be a fundamental flaw.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Do you? The Anglican canon who has spent a lot of time with Anglican
0:14:58 > 0:15:01communities in Baghdad, Andrew White, said it was time to recognise
0:15:01 > 0:15:04that the Christian community in Iraq was totally finished and that
0:15:04 > 0:15:0720-30,000 Iraqi Christians would jump at the opportunity to be
0:15:07 > 0:15:22rescued, airlifted out of Iraq today and given asylum in the UK.
0:15:22 > 0:15:44You're telling me that they oughtn't be given that chance?
0:15:44 > 0:15:46They are a neutralising and reconciling future as well.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48To get them out destabilises them, because if they are...
0:15:48 > 0:15:50What if they want to get out?
0:15:50 > 0:15:52What if they feel they are in danger?
0:15:52 > 0:15:54If they want to do that, they should be.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56But we should not be trying to get people out.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00If people feel the need to get out, if they don't feel they can protect
0:16:00 > 0:16:03their families and their livelihood, then they have a human right to live
0:16:03 > 0:16:05in a secure and protected setting.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07It seems to me this is an incredibly important debate
0:16:07 > 0:16:11for somebody like you, who represents a minority religious
0:16:11 > 0:16:15group in a vast country like Egypt.
0:16:15 > 0:16:20You have to decide at what point it is no longer viable to maintain
0:16:20 > 0:16:23the community and its massive historic tradition
0:16:23 > 0:16:28in situ, and to what extent you are prepared to contemplate running
0:16:28 > 0:16:40risks to keep your traditions and your community going.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43The Church does not make those decisions, people do. If it was
0:16:43 > 0:16:46the desire of every Coptic Christian to leave Egypt, during the past few
0:16:46 > 0:16:49years when there were incredible struggles, they would have done so.
0:16:49 > 0:17:00Yet, what we see...
0:17:00 > 0:17:01They can't, can they? Many couldn't get
0:17:01 > 0:17:02permission to settle in
0:17:02 > 0:17:04another country, they wouldn't have the economic wherewith
0:17:04 > 0:17:08to settle in
0:17:08 > 0:17:16another country.
0:17:16 > 0:17:25I am very mindful of the words of an Iraqi cleric in Lebanon,
0:17:25 > 0:17:29who said just the other day, that France was making
0:17:29 > 0:17:32a terrible mistake, indicating it would take Christians seeking asylum
0:17:32 > 0:17:33from the terrible troubles in Iraq.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35He said, telling questions they have no other option
0:17:35 > 0:17:38but to emigrate was absolutely the wrong thing to do, and it
0:17:38 > 0:17:40threatened to destroy historic communities in the Middle East.
0:17:40 > 0:17:57I think there is a difference between
0:17:57 > 0:17:59a country graciously opening its doors, because I
0:17:59 > 0:18:01think that is a good thing.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03And telling people that if you want to come, come.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06Rather than saying to them, you have no hope, you must leave.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10I think if we said to them, you have no viable existence, that is very
0:18:10 > 0:18:13different to saying our doors are open if you don't think you can
0:18:13 > 0:18:14sustain yourself in security there.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17We have talked about Iraq but I want to press you
0:18:17 > 0:18:19more on the situation of Coptic Christians in Egypt,
0:18:19 > 0:18:21which is your main area of concern.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24It seems to me there is one difficult area that Christians have
0:18:24 > 0:18:26had to tread in in Egypt recently.
0:18:26 > 0:18:31Your community has been for years supportive of and relatively close
0:18:31 > 0:18:38to the authoritarian regime of Hosni Mubarak, and after he fell,
0:18:38 > 0:18:41and now that General al-Sisi has become President al-Sisi,
0:18:41 > 0:18:43very supportive of al-Sisi too.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45Do you think that has been a mistake for Coptic Christians
0:18:45 > 0:18:54to line up so supportively behind authoritarian military government?
0:18:54 > 0:18:57I think it is important to find out why people support
0:18:57 > 0:19:00whoever they support.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02Whether they support a military government or a socialist
0:19:02 > 0:19:10setting, it is because that's where they think their interests are.
0:19:10 > 0:19:20That is where they are best protected, is that right?
0:19:20 > 0:19:23It is not just Copts, it is everyone. It is very difficult to
0:19:23 > 0:19:24establish who supported Mubarak
0:19:24 > 0:19:28and who didn't.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30I think it is oversimplistic to say that the Christians did,
0:19:30 > 0:19:35because the whole country pretty much stood where the Christians
0:19:35 > 0:19:36stood, and where the Muslims stood, everyone stood.
0:19:36 > 0:19:40You may say that, but I think in the words of your current Coptic
0:19:40 > 0:19:42Pope, when he very specifically refused to describe the military
0:19:42 > 0:19:45takeover, the toppling of the Muslim Brotherhood government in 2013 as a
0:19:45 > 0:19:47coup, he refused to use that word.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50He hailed General al-Sisi as a hero and a saviour.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53Again, they weren't the words of the Pope himself.
0:19:53 > 0:19:58I think I would still struggle with the word coup.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01A coup is the military takeover to have military rule.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05That is pretty much what you had.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08You also had the locking up of the democratically elected government.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11I don't want to step into the position of speaking
0:20:11 > 0:20:13for the military.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17I am asking you to speak for the Coptic people.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20I am wondering whether it is wise and continues to be wise for Coptic
0:20:20 > 0:20:26Christians to be seen to be so close to that brand of governance.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28I don't think it is just the Coptic Christians.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32I think what happened in the past two years flagged up
0:20:32 > 0:20:37that the problem in Egypt is not Coptic Christians, it is a Muslim
0:20:37 > 0:20:41presence that marginalised a large hulk of the Egyptian population,
0:20:41 > 0:20:48Christian and Muslim alike.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51What happened was not only Christians.
0:20:51 > 0:21:07When the Pope spoke, it was because we didn't have in Egypt a safeguard.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09of what happened in Egypt, there would be safeguards around him.
0:21:09 > 0:21:11There is Parliament, there is a judiciary, there are
0:21:11 > 0:21:13things that would stop that.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17In Egypt, there was nothing, when the people called out, had there
0:21:17 > 0:21:20been an alternative to the military to lead that step, they would have
0:21:20 > 0:21:36followed that alternative.
0:21:36 > 0:21:46It seems to me the basis of what you are saying is
0:21:46 > 0:21:48that the Arab uprising, which frankly,, we can now say brought
0:21:48 > 0:21:51terrible disorder to the Middle East, has been deeply damaging to
0:21:51 > 0:21:52Coptic Christians, and what Coptic Christians
0:21:52 > 0:21:55and other minority communities in the Middle East need is order,
0:21:55 > 0:21:58and if it is Hosni Mubarak for Bashar al-Assad, or General al-Sisi,
0:21:58 > 0:22:01then Christians will move towards that sort of order, am I right?
0:22:01 > 0:22:03I would like to speak in a new paradigm.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06That is that we should stop singling out Christians or Muslims otherwise.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08If we speak about Egyptian citizens, all of them, across-the-board,
0:22:08 > 0:22:11they will all want stability, whether they are Christian, Muslim,
0:22:11 > 0:22:12even secular or religious.
0:22:12 > 0:22:13Whatever leadership provides that should be followed.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16The problem we have had is that we have had leaderships that have
0:22:16 > 0:22:18followed particular sections of society,
0:22:18 > 0:22:22and not advocated for the whole.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26That is where people find it difficult to know who to follow.
0:22:26 > 0:22:32I suppose post-Arab spring, what Arabs fear is popular uprising
0:22:32 > 0:22:42and democracy in the Middle East, because it is bad for them.
0:22:42 > 0:22:48Democracy is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50We have been selling democracy as a wonderful, necessary thing
0:22:50 > 0:22:52for people to become civilised.
0:22:52 > 0:23:02Whereas, democracy is only a vehicle to bring forth
0:23:02 > 0:23:04representation, security, stability, and if what we wanted to push as
0:23:04 > 0:23:19democracy then didn't provide those things, then it failed.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22What we need to do is look for a model that provides those
0:23:22 > 0:23:23things for all those people.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25Is it too late for those people?
0:23:25 > 0:23:26100 or more years ago, roughly 20% of
0:23:26 > 0:23:30the Arab population was Christian, now it is in the low single digits.
0:23:30 > 0:23:31Is it too late?
0:23:31 > 0:23:33I don't think it is ever too late.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36I have a perspective as a Christian, if you look at the seventh
0:23:36 > 0:23:39century, with the introduction of Islam to Egypt, what we are seeing
0:23:39 > 0:23:45now gives us a very small picture of what was believed in the centuries.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48If we are able to outlive those, we will outlive this one.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50The thing is, we need to outlive it for
0:23:50 > 0:23:53the purpose of the whole country.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56I want us to stop looking at Christians as Christians as a
0:23:56 > 0:23:58whole, but look at the whole world.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01If we don't protect each other, if we don't get Muslim leaders
0:24:01 > 0:24:04standing up and saying, this is wrong, and if we don't get Christian
0:24:04 > 0:24:07leaders standing up and supporting them, then no one will win.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10We have to end there, but thank you very much.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14Bishop Angaelos, thank you very much.