:00:00. > :00:08.changes have been made. That is it. You
:00:09. > :00:14.on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. It was filmed in Jerusalem with
:00:15. > :00:20.Stephen Sackur. Welcome to HARDtalk from Jerusalem
:00:21. > :00:23.with me, Stephen Sackur. A ceasefire is now in place in Gaza and the
:00:24. > :00:31.Israeli government faces a simple question: what exactly did Operation
:00:32. > :00:34.Protective Edge achieve? For all the death and destruction in Gaza, has
:00:35. > :00:40.Israel's position been strengthened or weakened? I am joined here in
:00:41. > :00:45.Jerusalem by Israel's Minister of Intelligence, Yuval Steinitz. Is it
:00:46. > :01:03.time for an Israeli strategic rethink?
:01:04. > :01:14.Yuval Steinitz, welcome to HARDtalk. Pleasure. We have to start with a
:01:15. > :01:22.ceasefire. You have said that that deal has left a sour taste in your
:01:23. > :01:29.mouth. Why? 450 days we were under daily mortar at Dax from Gaza. It
:01:30. > :01:35.was an area that was supposed to be demilitarised by the Palestinian
:01:36. > :01:45.Authority. `` attacks. For nothing. This was an unnecessary round of
:01:46. > :01:48.violence between us and the Hamas in Gaza that brought misery and
:01:49. > :01:55.suffering on both sides without significant effect. And, without
:01:56. > :02:01.significant achievement on Israel's side. Would you except that? It has
:02:02. > :02:05.been a strategic failure. I don't accept this. Our main purpose, like
:02:06. > :02:11.any democratic government is to first protect our people, our
:02:12. > :02:17.citizens. If we have a long ceasefire now, if we did resume our
:02:18. > :02:23.deterrent capacity vis`a`vis Hamas and other organisations, then we
:02:24. > :02:30.achieved our goal. We paid a very expensive price with 70 casualties
:02:31. > :02:34.on our side, with people who had to flee their homes in the south of
:02:35. > :02:37.Israel because of the daily barrage of rockets and mortars. This is a
:02:38. > :02:43.to pay. You talk about restoring the to pay. You talk about restoring the
:02:44. > :02:50.deterrent capacity of Israel. Clearly, the deterrent was
:02:51. > :02:53.undermined. Despite relentless bombardment from Israel, Hamas
:02:54. > :02:59.Rockets kept coming in to your country even just before the
:03:00. > :03:06.ceasefire, 100 rockets every day. Hamas was not intimidated by all of
:03:07. > :03:11.Israel's military superiority. Stephen, I am ready to collaborate
:03:12. > :03:14.on the reasons, the cause of why Hamas began this round of violence
:03:15. > :03:20.in the first place just seven weeks ago and why they refused a
:03:21. > :03:24.ceasefire. Under the same conditions that were proposed by the Egyptians
:03:25. > :03:34.after one week. Now, the excepted. Let's face it, Hamas people have
:03:35. > :03:37.brought death and destruction on themselves and also unfortunately on
:03:38. > :03:41.the people of Gaza. Now, they are going out and they have to explain
:03:42. > :03:49.to themselves and to the people of Gaza to an extent, what for, why,
:03:50. > :03:53.what do they gain? I spoke with the political leader of Hamas in Qatar,
:03:54. > :03:57.just a short time ago, and he said there would not be a ceasefire
:03:58. > :04:04.unless the people of Gaza saw the blockade imposed upon them by Israel
:04:05. > :04:08.lifted. You say that Hamas has not achieved anything but the fact is
:04:09. > :04:11.that the crossings will be opened for humanitarian aid and for
:04:12. > :04:15.construction materials. The border with Egypt will be opened and to
:04:16. > :04:22.that extent, Hamas can say to its people, we have lifted that
:04:23. > :04:30.blockade. Stephen, this is ridiculous, why? Because, the border
:04:31. > :04:35.passage between Gaza and Israel was opened before this round of violence
:04:36. > :04:43.and I tell you, even during the violence we enabled hundreds of
:04:44. > :04:50.trucks with humanitarian aid. This was the situation before the last
:04:51. > :04:56.round of violence. Bad, it goes further, the Israelis have committed
:04:57. > :04:59.over the next month, as long as the ceasefire holds, to begin a
:05:00. > :05:05.negotiation over opening a seaport in Gaza, reopening the bombed
:05:06. > :05:10.airport in Gaza, extending the fishing limits for Gaza's fishermen
:05:11. > :05:13.`` But. These are all things that Hamas leaders will show there are
:05:14. > :05:22.people in Gaza and say, look, the suffering was worth forcing Israel
:05:23. > :05:27.into concessions. This isn't exactly the case. In the ceasefire
:05:28. > :05:31.announcement or proposal, none of these issues were mentioned. All
:05:32. > :05:38.that was mentioned was that one month from now, if the ceasefire is
:05:39. > :05:42.fully kept, there will be indirect talks with the Egyptians about
:05:43. > :05:46.everything they want to raise on both sides. We say already there
:05:47. > :05:52.will not be a seaport or airport in Gaza unless it is demilitarised
:05:53. > :05:56.exactly like Ramallah and in those indirect talks we will insist that
:05:57. > :06:01.demilitarisation come first because we already have got clear
:06:02. > :06:07.Palestinian commitment that Gaza and the West Bank will be demilitarised
:06:08. > :06:11.for ever come what may. This was violated, this is part of the
:06:12. > :06:17.problem in Gaza and there are four it should be the core of any
:06:18. > :06:21.long`term and genuine solution `` for. Are you trying to persuade me
:06:22. > :06:26.that Operation Protective Edge, for all of its 50 days, was not in the
:06:27. > :06:30.end a strategic failure? You don't have to convince me, you have to
:06:31. > :06:33.convince the Israeli public. An opinion polls suggest that over
:06:34. > :06:37.recent days that support for Benjamin Netanyahu has been
:06:38. > :06:45.haemorrhaging. We know that half the Cabinet was opposed to the ceasefire
:06:46. > :06:49.deal because they believed it has allowed Hamas to emerge with far too
:06:50. > :06:52.much and just to quote you want of the council heads in southern Israel
:06:53. > :06:59.whose term was being attacked by Hamas mortars, he says that after
:07:00. > :07:03.the deal, concessions two Hamas are a surrender to terrorism. So, you
:07:04. > :07:08.have a big trouble with your own people. You are right. We have a big
:07:09. > :07:13.problem generally speak on. People are frustrated, I will tell you why,
:07:14. > :07:18.because in Israel, everybody remembers that just nine years ago
:07:19. > :07:25.we pulled out from Gaza, we uprooted the Jewish settlements inside Gaza.
:07:26. > :07:28.People are frustrated because once and again they are being attacked
:07:29. > :07:34.from territories that were given back to the Palestinian's
:07:35. > :07:37.self`control, given back for peace, given back under clear commitment,
:07:38. > :07:41.written commitment that the territory was given back to the
:07:42. > :07:46.Palestinian authority under the condition that it is demilitarised.
:07:47. > :07:51.Clearly, people are frustrated in Israel. My view was from the outset
:07:52. > :07:55.that it is problematic what I have suggested, that we have no other
:07:56. > :08:04.choice and sooner or later we will have to recapture Gaza, to wreak
:08:05. > :08:10.Tour we occupy Gaza in order to eradicate the terrorist army over
:08:11. > :08:14.there. It is also very collocated. How close, you can tell me, how
:08:15. > :08:21.close did the Benjamin Netanyahu government come to giving the green
:08:22. > :08:26.light to the full military re` occupation of Gaza? You in Cabinet
:08:27. > :08:33.was briefed upon it by military commanders. How close did it come to
:08:34. > :08:37.that? I cannot elaborate on this. All that I can say is that it was
:08:38. > :08:46.seriously considered and I can tell you one thing, if Hamas would insist
:08:47. > :08:52.on continuing the rocket fire into Israel for another few weeks or
:08:53. > :09:00.months, I assume that this would be the only alternative. It could still
:09:01. > :09:06.happen? If Hamas resume the fire and there is no other option. The point
:09:07. > :09:09.is I am interested in the political dynamic in this country. Senior
:09:10. > :09:16.ministers in coalition with Benjamin Netanyahu, they counselled in favour
:09:17. > :09:25.of the full reoccupation of Gaza. Did you? Yes. Yes. So you think that
:09:26. > :09:32.Benjamin Netanyahu made a strategic mistake? No. That is the only
:09:33. > :09:38.logic. I knew that one day, sooner or later, they would be no other
:09:39. > :09:42.alternative but to destroy and eradicate this terrorist army, this
:09:43. > :09:48.established inside Gaza. This would established inside Gaza. This would
:09:49. > :09:56.be a relief not only for Israel but for the people of Gaza. Listen, it
:09:57. > :10:03.is an extremely complicated situation. The Prime Minister has
:10:04. > :10:09.tried it in a very clever way. I appreciate the way we conducted this
:10:10. > :10:18.almost impossible situation. Would you accept that the last 50 days of
:10:19. > :10:23.Operation Protective Edge, have done enormous damage to Israel's standing
:10:24. > :10:31.in the world? There was some damage, we cannot deny it. We feel extremely
:10:32. > :10:38.frustrated at about it. We found it quite difficult to understand. Why
:10:39. > :10:45.it it's so legitimate for other western democracies, countries, to
:10:46. > :10:49.fight terrorism and sometimes... You know, I remember when the United
:10:50. > :10:55.States and Britain lead the global war against terrorism. You went into
:10:56. > :10:59.Afghanistan and, unfortunately, there were also civilian casualties
:11:00. > :11:04.over there. But, this was legitimate for you, for the United States and
:11:05. > :11:08.people to fight against Al Qaeda after the 9/11 bombing attacks in
:11:09. > :11:13.New York. Hamas in the past has sent hundreds of suicide almost two
:11:14. > :11:20.Israeli restaurants, buses, schools, youth clubs and hotels. Surely you
:11:21. > :11:24.won't use what Hamas has done in the past to justify what Israel does
:11:25. > :11:25.today. I am surprised that you are surprised by the international
:11:26. > :11:32.reaction when more than 2000 people reaction when more than 2000 people
:11:33. > :11:38.have been killed, mostly civilians. When UNICEF says that 450 children
:11:39. > :11:43.have been killed inside Gaza. You are surprised that the international
:11:44. > :11:49.community has a problem with that? We also has a problem with that. It
:11:50. > :11:53.is a tragedy that Hamas has brought this on themselves and the people of
:11:54. > :12:00.Gaza. I am surprised that you think it is irrelevant that Hamas in the
:12:01. > :12:04.past when it was possible, sent hundreds of suicide bombers to our
:12:05. > :12:07.streets, killing 1000 civilians. Only when it was pushed from the
:12:08. > :12:11.West Bank into Gaza and they shifted the tactic because it was impossible
:12:12. > :12:16.to land a suicide bombing attacks into Israel, now they launch rockets
:12:17. > :12:20.from Gaza. Are you prepared to say to me that now it is over...
:12:21. > :12:28.(CROSSTALK) let me complete my answer. Hamas' aim to destroy the
:12:29. > :12:31.state of Israel, there past behaviour to use a suicide bombing
:12:32. > :12:37.strategy against Israeli civilians, the Hamas future goal, ultimate
:12:38. > :12:44.goal, to bring total destruction to 6 million Jews and to the Jewish
:12:45. > :12:49.state, this is very relevant to our current fighting wisdom. (CROSSTALK)
:12:50. > :12:53.I understand the point you are making. It is also relevant that
:12:54. > :13:00.Hamas has started the violence and has so far refused 11 ceasefire
:13:01. > :13:05.proposals. Don't forget, Stephen, the ultimate commitment of any
:13:06. > :13:12.democratic government is to protect its citizens, are citizens are under
:13:13. > :13:17.daily bombardment of hundreds of rockets from Gaza on a daily basis.
:13:18. > :13:22.I understand the point you are making... Luckily enough, the courts
:13:23. > :13:26.less strategies than the suicide bombing strategy because we have
:13:27. > :13:29.strong rocket defences. My job is to hold to account Hamas leaders for
:13:30. > :13:37.what they have done and to hold to account if I can Israel's leadership
:13:38. > :13:40.for what they have done. Ryton, I am asking you that the ceasefire in
:13:41. > :13:45.place, and we hope that it holds, are you prepared to say that Israel
:13:46. > :13:51.got something is very wrong in this campaign? For example, the
:13:52. > :13:57.decision, explicit, to attack civilian targets including you and
:13:58. > :14:00.schools when you knew they were used as shelters for a Palestinian
:14:01. > :14:03.civilians seeking safety in the midst of bombardment. Are you now
:14:04. > :14:19.prepared to say that we got something is terribly wrong?
:14:20. > :14:26.let me tell you with some respect that there is some hypocrisy in this
:14:27. > :14:34.question. I had never heard any... Criticism when the US and UK were in
:14:35. > :14:39.Fallujah in Iraq and terrorists took shelter among civilians in Iraq and
:14:40. > :14:44.you did your best to avoid civilian casualties but there were civilian
:14:45. > :14:51.casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. (CROSSTALK). You were fighting for
:14:52. > :14:58.your people and we are fighting for our will stop when the US described
:14:59. > :15:02.the bombing of a UN school is appalling, disgraceful, when Ban
:15:03. > :15:06.Ki`Moon, the secretary general of the UN, expressed moral outrage at
:15:07. > :15:14.this criminal act, are you saying that those words, that International
:15:15. > :15:19.reaction from your friends means nothing to Israel? It means
:15:20. > :15:24.sometimes, people adopt double standards. We are defending our
:15:25. > :15:28.people who are under direct attack on a daily basis. We did not attack
:15:29. > :15:36.any place unless we were fired upon from this place, unless somebody
:15:37. > :15:40.launched rockets from this place. The IDF will using unique tactics,
:15:41. > :15:48.warning by telephone calls, SMS and even by warning shots before many of
:15:49. > :15:52.these attacks. Face the realities. The realities are that we were
:15:53. > :15:56.attacked from densely populated areas and the first duty of any
:15:57. > :16:03.civilian, democratic government is to protect its people. If you are so
:16:04. > :16:09.sure that the Israeli forces acted with responsibility and rectitude,
:16:10. > :16:14.then why not accept the UN Human Rights Commission's committee of
:16:15. > :16:20.inquiry, which has been set up and which you personally has already
:16:21. > :16:25.condemned? If you are so sure that your forces acted in the right way,
:16:26. > :16:33.within international law, an album to be held to account. For several
:16:34. > :16:40.reasons. First of all, Benjamin was first to condemn us this time. ``
:16:41. > :16:45.Ban Ki`Moon. He said that Israel last year was discriminated against
:16:46. > :16:51.in all UN institutions and that this double standard was disturbing. You
:16:52. > :16:58.will not co`operate with the UN? (CROSSTALK). Let me make clear why.
:16:59. > :17:05.Answer the question. Will you co`operate? I think not and let me
:17:06. > :17:11.tell you why. First, we will not accept double standards. Nobody has
:17:12. > :17:14.established in a inquiry committees about Russia in Chechnya, about the
:17:15. > :17:22.US and Britain in Iraq and Afghanistan, about many other
:17:23. > :17:27.places. Secondly, the head of this inquiry has already called Israel a
:17:28. > :17:34.criminal state, has already called for the indictment of Prime Minister
:17:35. > :17:44.Benjamin Netanyahu. Any fair`minded judge in Israel or in the UK or in
:17:45. > :17:47.the US would quit. You know he is a respected international lawyer who
:17:48. > :17:53.sits on the advisory board of the Israel for review. This is not the
:17:54. > :17:59.issue. What is to the issue is that Israel refuses to be held to account
:18:00. > :18:02.but you may, and you know this, the end up before the International
:18:03. > :18:06.Criminal Court. Your government may be investigated for war crimes and
:18:07. > :18:11.crimes against humanity. I will tell you what the issue is here. Do not
:18:12. > :18:17.use double standards against the little tiny Jewish state. This tiny
:18:18. > :18:20.democracy that has had to survive and defend itself in maybe the most
:18:21. > :18:24.difficult of neighbourhoods on the face of the earth. Do not use double
:18:25. > :18:28.standards against us and do not use measures against ask that you do not
:18:29. > :18:33.take against other countries in the West or the rest of the world. This
:18:34. > :18:37.is first. Do not use double standards against the Jewish state.
:18:38. > :18:43.Do not discriminate against us when we are defending ourselves and our
:18:44. > :18:47.people. That is our duty. One question, which is not about
:18:48. > :18:50.international law, but the feeling that is growing in part of the
:18:51. > :18:56.international community that Israel has somehow lost its moral compass.
:18:57. > :18:59.I will quote you words from one senior Likud politician in this
:19:00. > :19:06.country. He said this a few weeks ago. Obviously you know him. He
:19:07. > :19:13.said: One hair on the head of an Israeli soldier is more precious
:19:14. > :19:19.than the entire Gazan population. When you hear words like that, do
:19:20. > :19:26.you feel sympathy for them or do you condemn them? I totally disagree and
:19:27. > :19:30.I totally condemn. So, what is going on in Israel when a senior
:19:31. > :19:36.politician can say something like that and feel like that reflects the
:19:37. > :19:39.views of people in this country? This does not reflect the views of
:19:40. > :19:46.most people in Israel and this does not reflect our behaviour. He is in
:19:47. > :19:50.your party. He is a member of the tennis that, a Member of Parliament.
:19:51. > :19:57.He is not a prominent politician. What is going on? The truth is the
:19:58. > :20:00.opposite. We put many of our soldiers at great risk in order to
:20:01. > :20:05.minimise collateral damage. This is the truth. The truth for many
:20:06. > :20:14.outside Israel is that you no longer value Palestinian life. This is
:20:15. > :20:17.totally against all of the evidence in all of our behaviour. We value
:20:18. > :20:23.Palestinian life. We value our own life. We feel sorry for the tragedy
:20:24. > :20:31.in Gaza. Do not forget, we have withdrawn from Gaza. We have stopped
:20:32. > :20:35.Jewish settlements in Gaza. We got a Palestinian commitment that once
:20:36. > :20:38.Israeli settlements in Gaza were over, there would be no rockets.
:20:39. > :20:45.Instead of supporting and backing us, the world, including Europe, the
:20:46. > :20:49.rest of the world supported us just nine years ago when we uprooted the
:20:50. > :20:54.Jewish settlements in Gaza and we ended the Israeli presence in Gaza
:20:55. > :20:58.and it was totally delivered to the hands of the Palestinian government,
:20:59. > :21:04.the whole world praised us and told us, now that you are out of Gaza,
:21:05. > :21:06.there will be no hostilities. And if they continue to attack you, you
:21:07. > :21:12.will have the full right to defend yourself. And now, this is
:21:13. > :21:19.unfortunately what is going on and we have to defend ourselves. I want
:21:20. > :21:24.to end with one big thought. Israel, and you had acknowledged it, has
:21:25. > :21:27.suffered in the international community. The relationship with
:21:28. > :21:32.Washington right now is described by a former US ambassador to Israel as
:21:33. > :21:36.dysfunctional. And now the Palestinians are seeking to
:21:37. > :21:41.internationalise the conflict. They are going back to the UN, demanding
:21:42. > :21:46.that the UN set a deadline for the resolution of the Israel`Palestine
:21:47. > :21:51.conflict. And some around the world are talking of putting new pressure
:21:52. > :21:54.on Israel, with sanctions. Here are the words of a senior Israeli
:21:55. > :22:02.security official from the recent past: I will never support sanctions
:22:03. > :22:09.on my country but this government is bringing huge problems onto what's.
:22:10. > :22:16.We, he says, are losing legitimacy. Do you accept that? Not at all. You
:22:17. > :22:22.are reading too much Israeli press. Let me... I'm just listening to a
:22:23. > :22:28.man who was the director of Shin Bet until 2011. It's very important to
:22:29. > :22:32.listen. But let me address directly your question. First, the relations
:22:33. > :22:38.between Israel and the US are good, very good. I'm supposed to be
:22:39. > :22:41.visiting the US in September morning the two discussed the Iranian
:22:42. > :22:49.nuclear issue but also other Middle East issues. `` mainly to discuss.
:22:50. > :22:52.We have a strong relationship with the US and we are encouraged by the
:22:53. > :22:57.strong support from the US government and European foreign
:22:58. > :23:05.ministers that the core of the problem is the militarisation of
:23:06. > :23:10.Gaza and the support that any genuine solution should include the
:23:11. > :23:14.demilitarisation of Gaza. But I want to suggest to you and our
:23:15. > :23:20.listeners. Put yourself in our place. What would have the
:23:21. > :23:27.government of Britain or any European government or in America,
:23:28. > :23:30.what would they do if suddenly a terrorist organisation launched
:23:31. > :23:37.thousands of rockets into major cities. In two London, Liverpool and
:23:38. > :23:41.Manchester. Put yourself in our place and ask yourself what would be
:23:42. > :23:46.your reaction if, instead of sitting in Europe, Britain or Finland or
:23:47. > :23:49.Germany would be here in the middle of the Middle East and had to
:23:50. > :23:53.protect themselves against terrorists organisations like
:23:54. > :24:04.Hezbollah or Islamic Jihad or how Mass. We have two end there. Thank
:24:05. > :24:35.you for coming onto the programme. You are welcome.
:24:36. > :24:36.Things are improving through this morning, with some