:00:00. > :00:00.the minority Shiah community for almost two months.
:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. Today, Namin Ramallah,
:00:20. > :00:22.headquarters of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.
:00:23. > :00:27.Palestinian leaders here are wrestling with the fallout from the
:00:28. > :00:33.military confrontation between Hamas and Israel in Gaza. It raised new
:00:34. > :00:39.questions about Palestinian political unity and their next moves
:00:40. > :00:45.in the quest for statehood. My guest is a senior figure inside the PLO `
:00:46. > :00:47.Yasser Abed Rabbo. Can the Palestinians get their political act
:00:48. > :01:07.together? Yasser Abed Rabbo, welcome to
:01:08. > :01:12.HARDtalk. Thank you. There is a cease`fire. The Gaza conflict ` at
:01:13. > :01:18.least for now ` appears to be over. What would you say that you and the
:01:19. > :01:25.Palestinian leadership have learned over the past two months? Well, we
:01:26. > :01:36.believe that this should be the last war. But it needs, also, an Israeli
:01:37. > :01:45.position or policy that will enable us to start a very serious process
:01:46. > :01:49.which will end the occupation. Because the source of all these
:01:50. > :01:56.conflicts, of all these wars every two years, is not only the siege
:01:57. > :02:01.upon Gaza ` the siege is part of the occupation. We should put an end to
:02:02. > :02:07.the occupation, and the whole world should join us in this effort. Well,
:02:08. > :02:10.you have been calling for an end to the occupation for many, many years.
:02:11. > :02:14.In terms of the strategic direction right now, I come back to this
:02:15. > :02:19.question about what you've learned. Because Hamas is claiming a victory.
:02:20. > :02:24.And Hamas says it's a victory for armed resistance. So what's your
:02:25. > :02:31.position on that? Are you now saying that armed resistance can work?
:02:32. > :02:39.Well, they claim the same thing `` claimed the same thing in 2005. That
:02:40. > :02:46.was the result of the continued attacks by Hamas and the Israeli
:02:47. > :02:54.occupying forces in Gaza. It ended up with the Israeli withdrawal from
:02:55. > :03:00.Gaza. Then elections came, and they raised this slogan ` "Through armed
:03:01. > :03:07.resistance, we push the Israelis outside Gaza." Through negotiations,
:03:08. > :03:12.we ended up with nothing." And they won the elections. And people
:03:13. > :03:17.believed them then. With respect, it's been a problem for the
:03:18. > :03:23.Palestinian Authority and you, as Secretary`General of the PLO, ever
:03:24. > :03:30.since, because ` if you look at what Palestinians on the street believe
:03:31. > :03:35.right now, and opinion polls suggest they think that the leader of Hamas
:03:36. > :03:40.is right ` they think that Hamas has the right strategy, which is to
:03:41. > :03:47.continue with armed resistance. That's right. Because, after the
:03:48. > :03:54.negotiations ` which lasted for 20 years ` and the last round of
:03:55. > :03:59.negotiations with John Kerry trying and hoping that there will be an
:04:00. > :04:06.outcome, we ended up with nothing. And John Kerry knows very well, and
:04:07. > :04:14.he tried even to express it, who was behind that failure. We tried our
:04:15. > :04:24.best to get an agreement with Israel in order to end the occupation
:04:25. > :04:28.within a certain period of time. What we had ` more settlement
:04:29. > :04:33.activities, more confiscation of land, more arrests, more demolition
:04:34. > :04:39.of homes in the West Bank, and the people feel now that at least Hamas
:04:40. > :04:43.had achieved something. They call it victory, but the people call it
:04:44. > :04:48.maybe steadfastness. Well, I just wonder whether you are, in this
:04:49. > :04:53.interview with me, renouncing two decades of strategic thinking, then.
:04:54. > :04:57.I mean, are you saying to me that, right now, recognition of Israel,
:04:58. > :05:02.abandon. Of the arms struggle, acceptance of the Oslo Accords ` all
:05:03. > :05:06.of that is a failure and needs to be finished with? I'm sorry to say it's
:05:07. > :05:16.a failure, but it's not our responsibility. That's why, now, we
:05:17. > :05:22.are calling for a new initiative by the international community ` the
:05:23. > :05:28.United States comes first. Other international forces should join in
:05:29. > :05:38.order to accept a plan, a political plan, by which we can see a day
:05:39. > :05:43.where we will be a free nation, put an end to the occupation, and we can
:05:44. > :05:47.live peacefully with Israel. Mr Abed Rabbo, nobody ` least of all in
:05:48. > :05:52.Washington ` is going to listen to that message if you are telling me
:05:53. > :05:57.that you are going back to the arms struggle. Binyamin Netanyahu said it
:05:58. > :06:00.quite plainly ` when you formed this national unity government with
:06:01. > :06:07.Hamas, and again in the last few days at the end of the conflict in
:06:08. > :06:10.Gaza, he said, "Mahmoud Abbas ` the Palestinian Authority ` have to
:06:11. > :06:15.choose which side they are on. The side of peace, or the side of
:06:16. > :06:23.terror." In fact, there was no peace. Peace had vanished. The whole
:06:24. > :06:28.effort that was made by the Americans had collapsed completely.
:06:29. > :06:33.And people were witnessing that. The Americans were witnessing that. The
:06:34. > :06:40.whole world... That's not the same thing as you then saying, because
:06:41. > :06:42.the track is failing or has failed, we are going to countenance resuming
:06:43. > :06:47.the arms struggle, which appears to be what you're saying to me. No, I
:06:48. > :06:50.didn't say that. Then how come you have a relationship with Hamas? How
:06:51. > :06:56.come you are praising Hamas? I am saying that, in 1994, we had an
:06:57. > :07:02.agreement for five years. By the end of these five years, we should have
:07:03. > :07:10.a final agreement with Israel to put an end to occupation. Now, we are 20
:07:11. > :07:15.years after the Oslo agreement. What happened? The occupation is
:07:16. > :07:22.deepening its presence inside the Palestinian territories. Now, it's
:07:23. > :07:28.up to Netanyahu to decide ` does he want peace, or he want the collapse
:07:29. > :07:34.of all the agreements that we had in the past? He had to choose, not us.
:07:35. > :07:39.We are the people under occupation. What did the people of gauze a want?
:07:40. > :07:43.`` Gaza want? They wanted dignity. They wanted the end of the siege.
:07:44. > :07:48.They wanted to live as normal people, as free people. That's what
:07:49. > :07:53.we want everywhere, as Palestinians. But the tactics used by Hamas were
:07:54. > :07:59.armed resistance ` in fact, they were sending rockets, thousands of
:08:00. > :08:03.rockets, into Israel, and many of them were hitting civilian areas
:08:04. > :08:08.and, we know, civilians died. Of course, Israel has Iron Dome, it has
:08:09. > :08:12.protections, but the fact is, when Israel calls that terrorism, people
:08:13. > :08:17.around the world agree with them. And you now have to ` let me finish
:08:18. > :08:24.` you have to decide, in the Palestinian Authority, whether you
:08:25. > :08:29.are prepared to say to Israel and to the Americans, "We will now police
:08:30. > :08:33.the borders of Gaza and we will ensure, we will guarantee you, that
:08:34. > :08:41.Gaza will be de`militarised." Are you prepared to say that? No, we are
:08:42. > :08:44.not. I'm telling you why. Until the last Israeli soldier withdrew from
:08:45. > :08:47.the Palestinian territories `` withdraws from the Palestinian
:08:48. > :08:50.territories, then we can say that we are ready to protect. We are not the
:08:51. > :08:54.agents of Israel. You are playing with fire, are you not, when you
:08:55. > :09:00.suggest to me that, actually, there is a legitimacy to Hamas's rockets?
:09:01. > :09:06.Because, frankly, for years, you and your people... There is a difference
:09:07. > :09:10.between the legitimacy of rockets and the legitimacy of the
:09:11. > :09:17.occupation. There is no legitimacy, first of all, to occupation. We
:09:18. > :09:25.didn't use rockets. We were trying to use the peaceful way all the
:09:26. > :09:30.time, and until today. But who is insisting to keep the occupation, to
:09:31. > :09:36.keep the settlement activities, to keep the siege in gauze `` besieging
:09:37. > :09:40.Gaza? I am confused, because only a few weeks ago, the Palestinian
:09:41. > :09:43.Authority Foreign Minister, Riyadh al`Maliki, said, "Look, if Hamas was
:09:44. > :09:47.responsible for the abduction and the killing of three Israeli
:09:48. > :09:51.teenagers in the West Bank, then Hamas will pay a heavy price and we
:09:52. > :09:55.will review our national unity agreement with them." Your message
:09:56. > :09:59.is very different. You seem to be saying that, because of diplomatic
:10:00. > :10:03.and political failure, you're now going to give a green light to
:10:04. > :10:11.Hamas. No, it's not diplomatic failure. It's the continuation of
:10:12. > :10:14.the occupation ` Israelis are controlling our life, are
:10:15. > :10:20.controlling our territory. This is the issue. And we want to put an end
:10:21. > :10:25.to that. For years, you've cracked down on Hamas right here in Ramallah
:10:26. > :10:30.and across the West Bank. Human rights groups have accused your
:10:31. > :10:34.police of abusing human rights, over legal detentions, of cracking down
:10:35. > :10:38.on a free media and banning free expression. Are you saying to me
:10:39. > :10:40.that the strategy has now changed and that Hamas is free to operate
:10:41. > :10:46.across the West Bank? No, we didn't say that. I want to know what you
:10:47. > :10:54.are saying, then. I'm saying that we will try our best to form a kind of
:10:55. > :11:02.a national unity government with Hamas, with all other factions, and
:11:03. > :11:06.we should have one platform. And the world should understand that if
:11:07. > :11:13.there will be another chance for a peace process, it will be the last
:11:14. > :11:18.one in the coming future. The world should intervene. Here's a personal
:11:19. > :11:22.question for you. I first met you during the Oslo peace process, when
:11:23. > :11:28.you were a Palestinian negotiator. You have been a key figure in two
:11:29. > :11:36.decades of efforts to make that Oslo process work. Even after doubts were
:11:37. > :11:41.cast, you continued to talk about "the peace process" with Israel ` a
:11:42. > :11:50.direct relationship between you and Israeli negotiators. Are you saying
:11:51. > :11:58.that's all over? We spend half of our lives negotiating, and I can say
:11:59. > :12:02.`` I would say it's impossible to go on the same way as we did in the
:12:03. > :12:07.past. Finished? No more it bilateral negotiations? We didn't say
:12:08. > :12:16.finished. He killed it. Mr Netanyahu killed it. Killed the process. How
:12:17. > :12:24.can we negotiate ` sit there ` about the future of this land, and your
:12:25. > :12:27.counterpart is, daily, annexing, confiscating, that land? With
:12:28. > :12:31.respect, nothing has changed in the last few months ` that has been the
:12:32. > :12:38.case through most of this process. You know when it stopped? The past
:12:39. > :12:42.two months, during the war. They stopped annexing more Palestinian
:12:43. > :12:47.territory. How much credibility you and Mahmoud Abbas can possibly have
:12:48. > :12:52.with Palestinians today when you've suddenly ` suddenly ` had a total
:12:53. > :12:57.change of heart about the wisdom of negotiating with Israel? It's not
:12:58. > :13:05.the question of wisdom of negotiations. The question is, if
:13:06. > :13:08.people are no more confident in that policy, I should... They don't
:13:09. > :13:16.believe in Mahmoud Abbas anymore, do they? No. No. How can they? No. They
:13:17. > :13:21.do not trust that negotiations with Israel ` the same old way. That is
:13:22. > :13:25.the policy that defines Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority.
:13:26. > :13:31.OK ` Mahmoud Abbas today is saying something different, slightly
:13:32. > :13:38.different. We need the involvement of UN, of the Security Council, and
:13:39. > :13:47.of the United States as well. In a serious process, we need to see when
:13:48. > :13:53.this occupation will end. This is the question that is very crucial,
:13:54. > :13:57.and that will convince the Palestinians with the resumption of
:13:58. > :14:00.the negotiation `` of renegotiation. In the President over the last
:14:01. > :14:04.couple of weeks, there have been rumours of conspiracies, of plots,
:14:05. > :14:08.to remove Mahmoud Abbas, and your name has been attached to at least
:14:09. > :14:12.one of them. Yeah. Yeah. Is it time for Mahmoud Abbas to go? And have
:14:13. > :14:18.you been planning his removal? I have heard these rumours. But the
:14:19. > :14:26.source of these rumours is an Israeli source. I don't want to
:14:27. > :14:36.elaborate more about that. Nobody trusts these rumours inPalestinian
:14:37. > :14:43.street. What we trust is, for the first time in the life of this
:14:44. > :14:51.so`called peace process, when are we going to see a credible process?
:14:52. > :14:57.Now, what we demand is seriousness, and seriousness means that the
:14:58. > :15:00.international community ` Arab countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia
:15:01. > :15:07.and other countries ` should be `` and Jordan ` should be involved in
:15:08. > :15:16.this process so that, in one year's time, in a few months' time, in a
:15:17. > :15:21.few weeks' time, I don't know, we would reach a tentative agreement
:15:22. > :15:32.where the Israelis would say, "On that date, we are going to leave
:15:33. > :15:36.you," and we can then accept the reality that, "OK, the end of the
:15:37. > :15:39.agony of the Palestinian people, the plight of the Palestinian people,
:15:40. > :15:46.had finished `` has finished as well." Is this not just words? If
:15:47. > :15:51.you do not work with the United States and with the Israelis in a
:15:52. > :16:01.diplomatic process, that is never going to happen. It might be an easy
:16:02. > :16:08.thing to say, but it is hard and difficult to live in this country
:16:09. > :16:15.with the daily humiliation, without dignity, and without freedom. These
:16:16. > :16:19.are newt slogans. These are issues `` not slogans. These are issues
:16:20. > :16:24.that relate to the life of every single Palestinian. The question is,
:16:25. > :16:28.how best ` practically ` to reach a different place, to actually fulfil
:16:29. > :16:31.the quest for statehood. I put it to you that nothing that the
:16:32. > :16:36.Palestinian Authority ` Mahmoud Abbas, or perhaps even yourself, is
:16:37. > :16:41.saying right now, suggests to me that you have a viable plan for
:16:42. > :16:47.fulfilling that quest. We had plans in the past. We don't need to search
:16:48. > :16:53.for a new plan. How many aingredients did we sign? Nothing of
:16:54. > :17:02.these agreements were respected except one ` the security coalition
:17:03. > :17:05.between Israel, because Israel feels that they gained through this
:17:06. > :17:11.security co`ordination. Other than that, what did we gain? When you say
:17:12. > :17:14.to me ` it seems to me it's a very important point ` "Yeah, we'll, as
:17:15. > :17:20.the Palestinian Authority, will go and police the borders of Gaza, but
:17:21. > :17:24.we will not guarantee that Gaza will be demilitarised," I guess you're
:17:25. > :17:29.saying, "We won't even guarantee that we'll stop weaponry and rockets
:17:30. > :17:33.entering Gaza from Egypt." If you're saying that, then how are the
:17:34. > :17:41.Americans, for example, going to regard you as serious about a peace
:17:42. > :17:50.process? In this region, in the Middle East, all kinds of conflicts,
:17:51. > :17:54.military conflicts, armed conflicts, can last forever, unless you find a
:17:55. > :18:04.political solution for these conflicts. What will put an end to
:18:05. > :18:09.all kinds of extremism, all kinds of military confrontations, the renewal
:18:10. > :18:15.of wars every two or three years ` the only thing is a political
:18:16. > :18:21.solution, is a solution that can live forever between two states,
:18:22. > :18:26.between two equal nations. We and the Israelis. That's what we are
:18:27. > :18:31.demanding now. If you know that ` I'm sorry to keep going on, but if
:18:32. > :18:38.you know that that is the solution, it has to be political, then why not
:18:39. > :18:43.say to me that, "Yes, we will commit to the demilitarisation of Gaza,"
:18:44. > :18:50.because that has to be a part of the resolution. By the way, even the
:18:51. > :18:55.Israelis do not demand that ` the demilitarisation of Gaza during this
:18:56. > :19:03.war. They wanted guarantees to stop rockets and to stop what they call
:19:04. > :19:07.some form of tunnels. Not the defensive ones, but the other kind,
:19:08. > :19:14.that might lead inside Israel. That's what they ask for. Don't ask
:19:15. > :19:22.for the impossible. We don't want to see ` neither Gaza nor the West Bank
:19:23. > :19:28.` to be militarised. But we don't want to see a continuation of this
:19:29. > :19:34.occupation forever. The end of the occupation will lead to the solution
:19:35. > :19:42.of all other problems, and demilitarisation is one aspect of
:19:43. > :19:46.these problems. If we sit there with real and serious international
:19:47. > :19:55.presence and intervention and we put all the issues ` starting with the
:19:56. > :20:00.occupation ` I'm sure that the people here, in hundreds of
:20:01. > :20:04.thousands, will move against those who might reject such a solution. We
:20:05. > :20:08.don't have so much more time. Just a couple of brief, specific points.
:20:09. > :20:14.The Palestinian Authority has talked about going to the International
:20:15. > :20:19.Criminal Court and pursuing a case against Israel for fundamental
:20:20. > :20:24.contraventions of international law during the Gaza conflict. How can
:20:25. > :20:28.you do that? Do you not think you may be dangerously misreading the
:20:29. > :20:34.politics in Washington, if you believe that the United States will
:20:35. > :20:38.support you pursuing Israel in the International Criminal Court, you
:20:39. > :20:40.may be sadly misguided, and you may jeopardise the Palestinian
:20:41. > :20:46.Authority's relationship with the Obama administration. So, let them
:20:47. > :20:50.tell us what is the other option. Tell us if there is a genuine
:20:51. > :20:54.process or not. That's what we seek at the end of the day. Have you
:20:55. > :21:01.given up on Obama and Washington? No. I don't think that we should do
:21:02. > :21:06.that. I mean `` do that at all. I mean, they did their best in the
:21:07. > :21:12.past few years. But now they feel that it's a hopeless case, maybe, or
:21:13. > :21:20.they feel helpless, and they feel that they have faced a solid wall in
:21:21. > :21:32.Israel and they cannot overcome so many difficulties ` even domestic
:21:33. > :21:36.ones. But in all cases, what we want is to see today, as soon as
:21:37. > :21:39.possible, a process. A political process. We know, at the end,
:21:40. > :21:44.there's no solution without that. You have been involved, as you said
:21:45. > :21:50.yourself, for half your life in this effort to find a path to statehood
:21:51. > :21:57.for the Palestinians. You have failed. Does it feel like this is
:21:58. > :22:07.the end of a road for you? I don't care about it, but what I care more
:22:08. > :22:15.is ` I see a new generation of Palestinians who are more committed
:22:16. > :22:22.to the case and the cause of freedom. Freedom is the only word
:22:23. > :22:26.that unites all Palestinians, irrespective of their beliefs,
:22:27. > :22:37.political affiliations, whatever it is. The new generation will continue
:22:38. > :22:42.this message until we achieve what we want ` a state for the
:22:43. > :22:46.Palestinian people, for all Palestinians, wherever they are. It
:22:47. > :22:51.is interesting that you talk about the "new generation". I've been
:22:52. > :22:56.coming to this region for the last 25 years. What strikes me now is
:22:57. > :23:01.that, if you look at the attitudes and talk to young people on both
:23:02. > :23:06.sides of the conflict, young Palestinians and young Israelis as
:23:07. > :23:14.well, you come across more hate, more fear of the other, more
:23:15. > :23:19.suspicion, than ever before. That is profoundly depressing, is it not?
:23:20. > :23:25.What do we expect? The new generation ` we have an employment
:23:26. > :23:34.here which is over 40%. In Gaza, it's over 60%. Every year, we have
:23:35. > :23:40.tens of thousands of graduates. They don't have any chance for having
:23:41. > :23:45.work, for having a possibility of building their own life. Do you
:23:46. > :23:52.believe there'll be peace with Israel in your lifetime? I believe
:23:53. > :23:57.there will be peace. When it will come ` I want it to be as soon as
:23:58. > :24:05.possible, to witness that peace while I am alive on this earth. But
:24:06. > :24:15.I am very confident that, if I'll not going to see it, my children and
:24:16. > :24:18.grandchildren ` I have four granddaughters ` they will see that
:24:19. > :24:21.day. Yasser Abed Rabbo, we have to end there, but thank you very much
:24:22. > :24:45.for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you, sir.
:24:46. > :24:50.Hello. As high pressure builds in, fine weather to come this week, but