Yasser Abed Rabbo - Secretary General, Palestine Liberation Organisation Executive Committee

Download Subtitles

Transcript

:00:00. > :00:00.the minority Shiah community for almost two months.

:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. Today, Namin Ramallah,

:00:20. > :00:22.headquarters of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.

:00:23. > :00:27.Palestinian leaders here are wrestling with the fallout from the

:00:28. > :00:33.military confrontation between Hamas and Israel in Gaza. It raised new

:00:34. > :00:39.questions about Palestinian political unity and their next moves

:00:40. > :00:45.in the quest for statehood. My guest is a senior figure inside the PLO `

:00:46. > :00:47.Yasser Abed Rabbo. Can the Palestinians get their political act

:00:48. > :01:07.together? Yasser Abed Rabbo, welcome to

:01:08. > :01:12.HARDtalk. Thank you. There is a cease`fire. The Gaza conflict ` at

:01:13. > :01:18.least for now ` appears to be over. What would you say that you and the

:01:19. > :01:25.Palestinian leadership have learned over the past two months? Well, we

:01:26. > :01:36.believe that this should be the last war. But it needs, also, an Israeli

:01:37. > :01:45.position or policy that will enable us to start a very serious process

:01:46. > :01:49.which will end the occupation. Because the source of all these

:01:50. > :01:56.conflicts, of all these wars every two years, is not only the siege

:01:57. > :02:01.upon Gaza ` the siege is part of the occupation. We should put an end to

:02:02. > :02:07.the occupation, and the whole world should join us in this effort. Well,

:02:08. > :02:10.you have been calling for an end to the occupation for many, many years.

:02:11. > :02:14.In terms of the strategic direction right now, I come back to this

:02:15. > :02:19.question about what you've learned. Because Hamas is claiming a victory.

:02:20. > :02:24.And Hamas says it's a victory for armed resistance. So what's your

:02:25. > :02:31.position on that? Are you now saying that armed resistance can work?

:02:32. > :02:39.Well, they claim the same thing `` claimed the same thing in 2005. That

:02:40. > :02:46.was the result of the continued attacks by Hamas and the Israeli

:02:47. > :02:54.occupying forces in Gaza. It ended up with the Israeli withdrawal from

:02:55. > :03:00.Gaza. Then elections came, and they raised this slogan ` "Through armed

:03:01. > :03:07.resistance, we push the Israelis outside Gaza." Through negotiations,

:03:08. > :03:12.we ended up with nothing." And they won the elections. And people

:03:13. > :03:17.believed them then. With respect, it's been a problem for the

:03:18. > :03:23.Palestinian Authority and you, as Secretary`General of the PLO, ever

:03:24. > :03:30.since, because ` if you look at what Palestinians on the street believe

:03:31. > :03:35.right now, and opinion polls suggest they think that the leader of Hamas

:03:36. > :03:40.is right ` they think that Hamas has the right strategy, which is to

:03:41. > :03:47.continue with armed resistance. That's right. Because, after the

:03:48. > :03:54.negotiations ` which lasted for 20 years ` and the last round of

:03:55. > :03:59.negotiations with John Kerry trying and hoping that there will be an

:04:00. > :04:06.outcome, we ended up with nothing. And John Kerry knows very well, and

:04:07. > :04:14.he tried even to express it, who was behind that failure. We tried our

:04:15. > :04:24.best to get an agreement with Israel in order to end the occupation

:04:25. > :04:28.within a certain period of time. What we had ` more settlement

:04:29. > :04:33.activities, more confiscation of land, more arrests, more demolition

:04:34. > :04:39.of homes in the West Bank, and the people feel now that at least Hamas

:04:40. > :04:43.had achieved something. They call it victory, but the people call it

:04:44. > :04:48.maybe steadfastness. Well, I just wonder whether you are, in this

:04:49. > :04:53.interview with me, renouncing two decades of strategic thinking, then.

:04:54. > :04:57.I mean, are you saying to me that, right now, recognition of Israel,

:04:58. > :05:02.abandon. Of the arms struggle, acceptance of the Oslo Accords ` all

:05:03. > :05:06.of that is a failure and needs to be finished with? I'm sorry to say it's

:05:07. > :05:16.a failure, but it's not our responsibility. That's why, now, we

:05:17. > :05:22.are calling for a new initiative by the international community ` the

:05:23. > :05:28.United States comes first. Other international forces should join in

:05:29. > :05:38.order to accept a plan, a political plan, by which we can see a day

:05:39. > :05:43.where we will be a free nation, put an end to the occupation, and we can

:05:44. > :05:47.live peacefully with Israel. Mr Abed Rabbo, nobody ` least of all in

:05:48. > :05:52.Washington ` is going to listen to that message if you are telling me

:05:53. > :05:57.that you are going back to the arms struggle. Binyamin Netanyahu said it

:05:58. > :06:00.quite plainly ` when you formed this national unity government with

:06:01. > :06:07.Hamas, and again in the last few days at the end of the conflict in

:06:08. > :06:10.Gaza, he said, "Mahmoud Abbas ` the Palestinian Authority ` have to

:06:11. > :06:15.choose which side they are on. The side of peace, or the side of

:06:16. > :06:23.terror." In fact, there was no peace. Peace had vanished. The whole

:06:24. > :06:28.effort that was made by the Americans had collapsed completely.

:06:29. > :06:33.And people were witnessing that. The Americans were witnessing that. The

:06:34. > :06:40.whole world... That's not the same thing as you then saying, because

:06:41. > :06:42.the track is failing or has failed, we are going to countenance resuming

:06:43. > :06:47.the arms struggle, which appears to be what you're saying to me. No, I

:06:48. > :06:50.didn't say that. Then how come you have a relationship with Hamas? How

:06:51. > :06:56.come you are praising Hamas? I am saying that, in 1994, we had an

:06:57. > :07:02.agreement for five years. By the end of these five years, we should have

:07:03. > :07:10.a final agreement with Israel to put an end to occupation. Now, we are 20

:07:11. > :07:15.years after the Oslo agreement. What happened? The occupation is

:07:16. > :07:22.deepening its presence inside the Palestinian territories. Now, it's

:07:23. > :07:28.up to Netanyahu to decide ` does he want peace, or he want the collapse

:07:29. > :07:34.of all the agreements that we had in the past? He had to choose, not us.

:07:35. > :07:39.We are the people under occupation. What did the people of gauze a want?

:07:40. > :07:43.`` Gaza want? They wanted dignity. They wanted the end of the siege.

:07:44. > :07:48.They wanted to live as normal people, as free people. That's what

:07:49. > :07:53.we want everywhere, as Palestinians. But the tactics used by Hamas were

:07:54. > :07:59.armed resistance ` in fact, they were sending rockets, thousands of

:08:00. > :08:03.rockets, into Israel, and many of them were hitting civilian areas

:08:04. > :08:08.and, we know, civilians died. Of course, Israel has Iron Dome, it has

:08:09. > :08:12.protections, but the fact is, when Israel calls that terrorism, people

:08:13. > :08:17.around the world agree with them. And you now have to ` let me finish

:08:18. > :08:24.` you have to decide, in the Palestinian Authority, whether you

:08:25. > :08:29.are prepared to say to Israel and to the Americans, "We will now police

:08:30. > :08:33.the borders of Gaza and we will ensure, we will guarantee you, that

:08:34. > :08:41.Gaza will be de`militarised." Are you prepared to say that? No, we are

:08:42. > :08:44.not. I'm telling you why. Until the last Israeli soldier withdrew from

:08:45. > :08:47.the Palestinian territories `` withdraws from the Palestinian

:08:48. > :08:50.territories, then we can say that we are ready to protect. We are not the

:08:51. > :08:54.agents of Israel. You are playing with fire, are you not, when you

:08:55. > :09:00.suggest to me that, actually, there is a legitimacy to Hamas's rockets?

:09:01. > :09:06.Because, frankly, for years, you and your people... There is a difference

:09:07. > :09:10.between the legitimacy of rockets and the legitimacy of the

:09:11. > :09:17.occupation. There is no legitimacy, first of all, to occupation. We

:09:18. > :09:25.didn't use rockets. We were trying to use the peaceful way all the

:09:26. > :09:30.time, and until today. But who is insisting to keep the occupation, to

:09:31. > :09:36.keep the settlement activities, to keep the siege in gauze `` besieging

:09:37. > :09:40.Gaza? I am confused, because only a few weeks ago, the Palestinian

:09:41. > :09:43.Authority Foreign Minister, Riyadh al`Maliki, said, "Look, if Hamas was

:09:44. > :09:47.responsible for the abduction and the killing of three Israeli

:09:48. > :09:51.teenagers in the West Bank, then Hamas will pay a heavy price and we

:09:52. > :09:55.will review our national unity agreement with them." Your message

:09:56. > :09:59.is very different. You seem to be saying that, because of diplomatic

:10:00. > :10:03.and political failure, you're now going to give a green light to

:10:04. > :10:11.Hamas. No, it's not diplomatic failure. It's the continuation of

:10:12. > :10:14.the occupation ` Israelis are controlling our life, are

:10:15. > :10:20.controlling our territory. This is the issue. And we want to put an end

:10:21. > :10:25.to that. For years, you've cracked down on Hamas right here in Ramallah

:10:26. > :10:30.and across the West Bank. Human rights groups have accused your

:10:31. > :10:34.police of abusing human rights, over legal detentions, of cracking down

:10:35. > :10:38.on a free media and banning free expression. Are you saying to me

:10:39. > :10:40.that the strategy has now changed and that Hamas is free to operate

:10:41. > :10:46.across the West Bank? No, we didn't say that. I want to know what you

:10:47. > :10:54.are saying, then. I'm saying that we will try our best to form a kind of

:10:55. > :11:02.a national unity government with Hamas, with all other factions, and

:11:03. > :11:06.we should have one platform. And the world should understand that if

:11:07. > :11:13.there will be another chance for a peace process, it will be the last

:11:14. > :11:18.one in the coming future. The world should intervene. Here's a personal

:11:19. > :11:22.question for you. I first met you during the Oslo peace process, when

:11:23. > :11:28.you were a Palestinian negotiator. You have been a key figure in two

:11:29. > :11:36.decades of efforts to make that Oslo process work. Even after doubts were

:11:37. > :11:41.cast, you continued to talk about "the peace process" with Israel ` a

:11:42. > :11:50.direct relationship between you and Israeli negotiators. Are you saying

:11:51. > :11:58.that's all over? We spend half of our lives negotiating, and I can say

:11:59. > :12:02.`` I would say it's impossible to go on the same way as we did in the

:12:03. > :12:07.past. Finished? No more it bilateral negotiations? We didn't say

:12:08. > :12:16.finished. He killed it. Mr Netanyahu killed it. Killed the process. How

:12:17. > :12:24.can we negotiate ` sit there ` about the future of this land, and your

:12:25. > :12:27.counterpart is, daily, annexing, confiscating, that land? With

:12:28. > :12:31.respect, nothing has changed in the last few months ` that has been the

:12:32. > :12:38.case through most of this process. You know when it stopped? The past

:12:39. > :12:42.two months, during the war. They stopped annexing more Palestinian

:12:43. > :12:47.territory. How much credibility you and Mahmoud Abbas can possibly have

:12:48. > :12:52.with Palestinians today when you've suddenly ` suddenly ` had a total

:12:53. > :12:57.change of heart about the wisdom of negotiating with Israel? It's not

:12:58. > :13:05.the question of wisdom of negotiations. The question is, if

:13:06. > :13:08.people are no more confident in that policy, I should... They don't

:13:09. > :13:16.believe in Mahmoud Abbas anymore, do they? No. No. How can they? No. They

:13:17. > :13:21.do not trust that negotiations with Israel ` the same old way. That is

:13:22. > :13:25.the policy that defines Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority.

:13:26. > :13:31.OK ` Mahmoud Abbas today is saying something different, slightly

:13:32. > :13:38.different. We need the involvement of UN, of the Security Council, and

:13:39. > :13:47.of the United States as well. In a serious process, we need to see when

:13:48. > :13:53.this occupation will end. This is the question that is very crucial,

:13:54. > :13:57.and that will convince the Palestinians with the resumption of

:13:58. > :14:00.the negotiation `` of renegotiation. In the President over the last

:14:01. > :14:04.couple of weeks, there have been rumours of conspiracies, of plots,

:14:05. > :14:08.to remove Mahmoud Abbas, and your name has been attached to at least

:14:09. > :14:12.one of them. Yeah. Yeah. Is it time for Mahmoud Abbas to go? And have

:14:13. > :14:18.you been planning his removal? I have heard these rumours. But the

:14:19. > :14:26.source of these rumours is an Israeli source. I don't want to

:14:27. > :14:36.elaborate more about that. Nobody trusts these rumours inPalestinian

:14:37. > :14:43.street. What we trust is, for the first time in the life of this

:14:44. > :14:51.so`called peace process, when are we going to see a credible process?

:14:52. > :14:57.Now, what we demand is seriousness, and seriousness means that the

:14:58. > :15:00.international community ` Arab countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia

:15:01. > :15:07.and other countries ` should be `` and Jordan ` should be involved in

:15:08. > :15:16.this process so that, in one year's time, in a few months' time, in a

:15:17. > :15:21.few weeks' time, I don't know, we would reach a tentative agreement

:15:22. > :15:32.where the Israelis would say, "On that date, we are going to leave

:15:33. > :15:36.you," and we can then accept the reality that, "OK, the end of the

:15:37. > :15:39.agony of the Palestinian people, the plight of the Palestinian people,

:15:40. > :15:46.had finished `` has finished as well." Is this not just words? If

:15:47. > :15:51.you do not work with the United States and with the Israelis in a

:15:52. > :16:01.diplomatic process, that is never going to happen. It might be an easy

:16:02. > :16:08.thing to say, but it is hard and difficult to live in this country

:16:09. > :16:15.with the daily humiliation, without dignity, and without freedom. These

:16:16. > :16:19.are newt slogans. These are issues `` not slogans. These are issues

:16:20. > :16:24.that relate to the life of every single Palestinian. The question is,

:16:25. > :16:28.how best ` practically ` to reach a different place, to actually fulfil

:16:29. > :16:31.the quest for statehood. I put it to you that nothing that the

:16:32. > :16:36.Palestinian Authority ` Mahmoud Abbas, or perhaps even yourself, is

:16:37. > :16:41.saying right now, suggests to me that you have a viable plan for

:16:42. > :16:47.fulfilling that quest. We had plans in the past. We don't need to search

:16:48. > :16:53.for a new plan. How many aingredients did we sign? Nothing of

:16:54. > :17:02.these agreements were respected except one ` the security coalition

:17:03. > :17:05.between Israel, because Israel feels that they gained through this

:17:06. > :17:11.security co`ordination. Other than that, what did we gain? When you say

:17:12. > :17:14.to me ` it seems to me it's a very important point ` "Yeah, we'll, as

:17:15. > :17:20.the Palestinian Authority, will go and police the borders of Gaza, but

:17:21. > :17:24.we will not guarantee that Gaza will be demilitarised," I guess you're

:17:25. > :17:29.saying, "We won't even guarantee that we'll stop weaponry and rockets

:17:30. > :17:33.entering Gaza from Egypt." If you're saying that, then how are the

:17:34. > :17:41.Americans, for example, going to regard you as serious about a peace

:17:42. > :17:50.process? In this region, in the Middle East, all kinds of conflicts,

:17:51. > :17:54.military conflicts, armed conflicts, can last forever, unless you find a

:17:55. > :18:04.political solution for these conflicts. What will put an end to

:18:05. > :18:09.all kinds of extremism, all kinds of military confrontations, the renewal

:18:10. > :18:15.of wars every two or three years ` the only thing is a political

:18:16. > :18:21.solution, is a solution that can live forever between two states,

:18:22. > :18:26.between two equal nations. We and the Israelis. That's what we are

:18:27. > :18:31.demanding now. If you know that ` I'm sorry to keep going on, but if

:18:32. > :18:38.you know that that is the solution, it has to be political, then why not

:18:39. > :18:43.say to me that, "Yes, we will commit to the demilitarisation of Gaza,"

:18:44. > :18:50.because that has to be a part of the resolution. By the way, even the

:18:51. > :18:55.Israelis do not demand that ` the demilitarisation of Gaza during this

:18:56. > :19:03.war. They wanted guarantees to stop rockets and to stop what they call

:19:04. > :19:07.some form of tunnels. Not the defensive ones, but the other kind,

:19:08. > :19:14.that might lead inside Israel. That's what they ask for. Don't ask

:19:15. > :19:22.for the impossible. We don't want to see ` neither Gaza nor the West Bank

:19:23. > :19:28.` to be militarised. But we don't want to see a continuation of this

:19:29. > :19:34.occupation forever. The end of the occupation will lead to the solution

:19:35. > :19:42.of all other problems, and demilitarisation is one aspect of

:19:43. > :19:46.these problems. If we sit there with real and serious international

:19:47. > :19:55.presence and intervention and we put all the issues ` starting with the

:19:56. > :20:00.occupation ` I'm sure that the people here, in hundreds of

:20:01. > :20:04.thousands, will move against those who might reject such a solution. We

:20:05. > :20:08.don't have so much more time. Just a couple of brief, specific points.

:20:09. > :20:14.The Palestinian Authority has talked about going to the International

:20:15. > :20:19.Criminal Court and pursuing a case against Israel for fundamental

:20:20. > :20:24.contraventions of international law during the Gaza conflict. How can

:20:25. > :20:28.you do that? Do you not think you may be dangerously misreading the

:20:29. > :20:34.politics in Washington, if you believe that the United States will

:20:35. > :20:38.support you pursuing Israel in the International Criminal Court, you

:20:39. > :20:40.may be sadly misguided, and you may jeopardise the Palestinian

:20:41. > :20:46.Authority's relationship with the Obama administration. So, let them

:20:47. > :20:50.tell us what is the other option. Tell us if there is a genuine

:20:51. > :20:54.process or not. That's what we seek at the end of the day. Have you

:20:55. > :21:01.given up on Obama and Washington? No. I don't think that we should do

:21:02. > :21:06.that. I mean `` do that at all. I mean, they did their best in the

:21:07. > :21:12.past few years. But now they feel that it's a hopeless case, maybe, or

:21:13. > :21:20.they feel helpless, and they feel that they have faced a solid wall in

:21:21. > :21:32.Israel and they cannot overcome so many difficulties ` even domestic

:21:33. > :21:36.ones. But in all cases, what we want is to see today, as soon as

:21:37. > :21:39.possible, a process. A political process. We know, at the end,

:21:40. > :21:44.there's no solution without that. You have been involved, as you said

:21:45. > :21:50.yourself, for half your life in this effort to find a path to statehood

:21:51. > :21:57.for the Palestinians. You have failed. Does it feel like this is

:21:58. > :22:07.the end of a road for you? I don't care about it, but what I care more

:22:08. > :22:15.is ` I see a new generation of Palestinians who are more committed

:22:16. > :22:22.to the case and the cause of freedom. Freedom is the only word

:22:23. > :22:26.that unites all Palestinians, irrespective of their beliefs,

:22:27. > :22:37.political affiliations, whatever it is. The new generation will continue

:22:38. > :22:42.this message until we achieve what we want ` a state for the

:22:43. > :22:46.Palestinian people, for all Palestinians, wherever they are. It

:22:47. > :22:51.is interesting that you talk about the "new generation". I've been

:22:52. > :22:56.coming to this region for the last 25 years. What strikes me now is

:22:57. > :23:01.that, if you look at the attitudes and talk to young people on both

:23:02. > :23:06.sides of the conflict, young Palestinians and young Israelis as

:23:07. > :23:14.well, you come across more hate, more fear of the other, more

:23:15. > :23:19.suspicion, than ever before. That is profoundly depressing, is it not?

:23:20. > :23:25.What do we expect? The new generation ` we have an employment

:23:26. > :23:34.here which is over 40%. In Gaza, it's over 60%. Every year, we have

:23:35. > :23:40.tens of thousands of graduates. They don't have any chance for having

:23:41. > :23:45.work, for having a possibility of building their own life. Do you

:23:46. > :23:52.believe there'll be peace with Israel in your lifetime? I believe

:23:53. > :23:57.there will be peace. When it will come ` I want it to be as soon as

:23:58. > :24:05.possible, to witness that peace while I am alive on this earth. But

:24:06. > :24:15.I am very confident that, if I'll not going to see it, my children and

:24:16. > :24:18.grandchildren ` I have four granddaughters ` they will see that

:24:19. > :24:21.day. Yasser Abed Rabbo, we have to end there, but thank you very much

:24:22. > :24:45.for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

:24:46. > :24:50.Hello. As high pressure builds in, fine weather to come this week, but