Gideon Levy - Journalist from Haaretz newspaper, Israel

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:01:36. > :01:41.problems are not solved. Half an hour away from here, there are two

:01:42. > :01:44.million, three million Palestinians living under a brutal occupation and

:01:45. > :01:48.as long as those beaches remain as peaceful as they are and the beaches

:01:49. > :01:57.of Gaza continue to be full of ruins and dead bodies, this cannot go on

:01:58. > :02:05.like this. It is really living in denial.

:02:06. > :02:08.Does it bother you that the views you have appear to appeal to the

:02:09. > :02:12.tiniest of tiny minorities inside this country?

:02:13. > :02:18.Even now, you are exaggerating a bit. It is even less than this. I'm

:02:19. > :02:27.not a politician and I am not looking for gaining a majority. I'm

:02:28. > :02:32.writing what I believe in genuinely. This is my view and I will stick to

:02:33. > :02:39.it as long as I can continue to express myself in this country. You

:02:40. > :02:43.say that you will stick to it but we know that over the last few weeks,

:02:44. > :02:45.as you have written about Israel's conduct in its military

:02:46. > :02:48.confrontation with Hamas in Gaza, enormous numbers of people have been

:02:49. > :02:54.infuriated. People around this city yell at you and make threats against

:02:55. > :02:59.you. Are you prepared to live with that?

:03:00. > :03:05.I do not know if it will go on like this but I will not leave this

:03:06. > :03:08.place. Even now, you have to hire a

:03:09. > :03:19.bodyguard if you are going to go into very public places. It seems to

:03:20. > :03:22.me that this is a message, telling you that you do not have much of a

:03:23. > :03:26.future in this country. What alternative do I have? I'm not

:03:27. > :03:42.going to change my mind, I'm not going to shut my mouth and I'm not

:03:43. > :03:45.going to leave this place. None of these are possibilities and so I

:03:46. > :03:48.will stay here and do as much as I can. Let us continue this

:03:49. > :03:51.conversation where your words are turned into newsprint, the offices

:03:52. > :03:55.of Haaretz. I want to know what is in your mind when you write.

:03:56. > :03:58.Do you set out to provoke, to inflame?

:03:59. > :04:01.I do not think provoke is the right word. I want to try and shake

:04:02. > :04:04.Israeli people out of their unbelievable indifference, apathy

:04:05. > :04:12.and lack of any kind of moral judgement. I want to shake them one

:04:13. > :04:15.way or the other with my very, very modest powers because I'm only one

:04:16. > :04:26.journalist working for a small newspaper. I'm trying to do this but

:04:27. > :04:30.if this creates anger then... It seems to me that there is

:04:31. > :04:34.arrogance in what you do because you have said in the past, "My mission,"

:04:35. > :04:37.and you use the word mission, "is to prevent Israelis from saying we did

:04:38. > :04:42.not know what was happening in the occupied territories." Should

:04:43. > :05:48.journalism have a mission? their behalf. For this, you do not

:05:49. > :05:49.need Arabic. You know as well as I do that for good journalism, you can

:05:50. > :05:56.do it with Hebrew, English and translators. Saying he does not

:05:57. > :05:59.speak Arabic means nothing. I talk about people as human beings and

:06:00. > :06:05.there are very few Israelis who talk of Palestinians like human beings.

:06:06. > :06:23.Let us get into what you said, "No other war has turned my

:06:24. > :06:26.stomach like this one has." And you have directed your condemnatory fire

:06:27. > :06:28.particularly at the commanders of the Israeli military, leading

:06:29. > :06:41.pilots in the Air Force, who you doing their jobs. Some

:06:42. > :06:43.pilots in the Air Force, who you said were "perpetrating the

:06:44. > :06:46.cruellest and most despicable of deeds, these, the finest of our

:06:47. > :06:53.young military men." That is something which to so many Israelis

:06:54. > :06:56.crossed a red line. First of all, I do not believe in

:06:57. > :06:58.red lines. In times of war when things are still happening, I

:06:59. > :07:01.thought and I still think that Israelis cannot live with this

:07:02. > :07:08.luxury of not taking any kind of accountability towards what is being

:07:09. > :07:11.done on their behalf. Let me quote to you one former

:07:12. > :07:14.pilot, a self`appointed leftist, who responded in public to you, saying,

:07:15. > :07:17."It is infuriating to see Gideon Levy throw mud at those who are

:07:18. > :07:25.doing their utmost to serve this country." And he said the

:07:26. > :07:28.implication that military men, soldiers, should disobey orders they

:07:29. > :07:37.disagree with is going to rebound on the left.

:07:38. > :07:40.it may be soldiers refusing to close down Jewish settlements on occupied

:07:41. > :07:43.territory and who use the same arguments that you use, that in the

:07:44. > :07:50.end, soldiers should not follow orders that cross an ethical line

:07:51. > :07:53.for them personally. There is a big difference between

:07:54. > :07:56.evacuation of settlements and destruction and killing.

:07:57. > :08:02.In your mind. No, no. In any moral standard,

:08:03. > :08:06.killing and demolishing is not like evacuating, with all due respect.

:08:07. > :08:13.And illegal by international law, by

:08:14. > :08:16.local law. But when you see this massive destruction, especially in

:08:17. > :08:18.the first days, from the air, someone has to be at least aware

:08:19. > :08:23.that the pilot who sits in cockpit and sees those images and

:08:24. > :08:36.pushes the button, he is not always aware of the outcome on the ground.

:08:37. > :08:43.800 children and women killed is OK? 2,000, 3,000? When do you stop? Only

:08:44. > :08:45.because they had orders? Only because they do not see the

:08:46. > :08:50.They have no immunity. And I think They have no immunity. And I think

:08:51. > :08:55.some of the pilots, most of the pilots, are very moral people and

:08:56. > :09:03.that is exactly why I wrote it. I used the word arrogance earlier. I

:09:04. > :09:06.wonder if you ever pause to wonder why so few Israelis, whether in

:09:07. > :09:10.uniform or out, appear to have any sympathy with your argument? Could

:09:11. > :09:21.it just be that in terms of this country, its security and its

:09:22. > :09:25.future, you might just be wrong? Now I will give you an arrogant

:09:26. > :09:28.answer. There are so many cases in history in which the very few were

:09:29. > :10:15.the right and the history in which the very few were

:10:16. > :10:21.period. You have used the word fascism. You have said,

:10:22. > :10:25.past but now I think the time has come to use the word fascism for

:10:26. > :10:36.what is happening in Israel today.". I have seen signs of fascism. I

:10:37. > :10:39.still see them. As a disease, it is always good to find it as early as

:10:40. > :10:43.possible and the first symptoms are here. How dare you say that to an

:10:44. > :10:46.Israeli public with all of the collective memory that this country

:10:47. > :10:49.has? And indeed yourself, the son of German and Czech refugees who just

:10:50. > :10:54.managed to escape from Nazism? I see the symptoms. If some Israelis

:10:55. > :10:57.were scared to go to demonstrate against this war, and I know so many

:10:58. > :11:00.who were physically scared to go, if a leading leader of the Israeli

:11:01. > :11:04.parliament is calling African asylum seekers cancer, if a leading figure

:11:05. > :11:07.of the Likud Party is calling for me to be brought to court for treason

:11:08. > :11:11.main concern, Stephen, is not that those are the first symptoms and my

:11:12. > :11:17.main concern, Stephen, is not that we are fascist. I do not think we

:11:18. > :11:20.are yet there. My main concern is that there is no`one to stop fascism

:11:21. > :11:29.here. saying is so wrongheaded because you

:11:30. > :11:47.are perversely looking at the wrong end of the problem.

:11:48. > :11:48.Hamas, an organisation that is committed to the elimination of the

:11:49. > :11:54.Jewish state, Mediterranean to the Jordan River.

:11:55. > :11:58.That is in the minds of many Israelis a totalitarian ideology

:11:59. > :12:04.that Israel has to confront. No doubt, no doubt. Hamas is not my

:12:05. > :12:11.cup of tea. I did not vote for Hamas. But Hamas is a Palestinian

:12:12. > :12:16.movement and I am much more concerned about Israeli society.

:12:17. > :12:18.Israel always was free. Freedom is one of the strongest assets of

:12:19. > :13:04.Israel, not. I'm trying to raise a different

:13:05. > :13:06.voice. If you look at the reality today, I

:13:07. > :13:20.have talked Jewish state of Israel. And in this

:13:21. > :14:08.context for you to argue to Israelis that they should take a

:14:09. > :14:10.context for you to argue to Israelis What will you get? The Finnish

:14:11. > :14:17.government? The Swedish government? You will get Somalia. What is the

:14:18. > :14:20.alternative? Peace with Hamas, with Fatah, with anyone who is there, or

:14:21. > :14:23.to wait for all of those catastrophes to come and then really

:14:24. > :14:30.there will be no path forward. I want to bring this back to the more

:14:31. > :14:32.personal sense. You forged many of your ideas by travelling through the

:14:33. > :14:36.occupied territory and watching occupation. I wonder if it might be

:14:37. > :14:39.time for you, Gideon Levy, to spend more time travelling in your own

:14:40. > :14:42.country, talking to your own compatriots. For example, maybe if

:14:43. > :14:45.you went to a kibbutz today, the kibbutz where two men just a few

:14:46. > :14:48.days ago were killed by Hamas rockets, men who have now left

:14:49. > :14:51.widows and children behind, people who were not part of the war, who

:14:52. > :14:54.were almost certainly leftists because they were in a kibbutz,

:14:55. > :14:58.which is by and large of the left, and if you spoke to those families

:14:59. > :15:02.or if you spoke to the mother of a boy who was killed by a Hamas rocket

:15:03. > :15:06.just a few days before that, maybe you would develop a different sense?

:15:07. > :15:12.I would and I did it again and again in this war.

:15:13. > :15:23.I have been to the kibbutzim, I have been to these places. I have a lot

:15:24. > :15:25.of empathy for those people. And there are so many Israeli

:15:26. > :15:30.journalists who cover their sacrifice. And I cannot make the

:15:31. > :15:35.comparison, with all due respect, with their suffering vis`a`vis the

:15:36. > :15:38.suffering of Gaza. For me, the suffering of Gaza, which is on an

:15:39. > :15:48.entirely different scale, is burning in my bones. I might even say more

:15:49. > :15:51.because it is a bigger catastrophe. And those are human beings exactly

:15:52. > :15:55.like the people in the south and their suffering has now gone on for

:15:56. > :15:58.65 years and we cannot see the end of it. I cannot ignore this

:15:59. > :16:01.suffering. And there are enough of my colleagues who cover and rightly

:16:02. > :16:02.so the Israeli sacrifice. Let one journalist also cover the other

:16:03. > :16:17.side. Let us talk about the politics of

:16:18. > :16:28.this country. When I lived here not so long ago, the Labour Party was

:16:29. > :16:32.the dominant force. It was the party of Peres. Now Labour struggles to

:16:33. > :16:39.win more than a handful of seats in the elections. The left as a whole

:16:40. > :16:42.has been reduced. I just wonder why you think that is and whether you

:16:43. > :16:46.believe, frankly, there is any hope of reviving the left in this

:16:47. > :16:58.country. The left was smashed after the lie that there was no

:16:59. > :17:02.Palestinian partner. And the second intifada. After the exploding buses

:17:03. > :17:05.and the line that there is no Palestinian partner. There were

:17:06. > :17:12.question marks, how solid was it in the first place? With respect, if

:17:13. > :17:15.one takes it away from the politicians but thinks about the

:17:16. > :17:19.most respected leftist cultural figures, a writer, he says what has

:17:20. > :17:25.undermined the left more than anything else is what happened after

:17:26. > :17:36.the withdrawal from Gaza. Because finally, Sharon gave the

:17:37. > :17:39.Palestinians what they wanted in Gaza, which was the withdrawal of

:17:40. > :17:41.Israeli forces. You run your own affairs, is the message. Hamas was

:17:42. > :18:21.in control. The rockets began. In outside the jail, rather than

:18:22. > :18:34.inside. a cage would throw flowers at

:18:35. > :18:44.Israel, wait for the world to save them? How

:18:45. > :18:50.can the world expect this? I many Israelis would say, listen to

:18:51. > :18:58.Gideon Levy, he And he enjoys the freedom of

:18:59. > :19:04.expression that Israel offers. He enjoys the prosperity that the state

:19:05. > :19:17.has delivered to Jewish people, just like him. Anti` `` and he mouths

:19:18. > :19:21.off, criticising modern`day Zionism without which he would not exist.

:19:22. > :19:23.Should I be grateful for this? This should go without saying. To be

:19:24. > :19:27.grateful for Israel that lets me speak, are we are saying that it

:19:28. > :19:33.must be an exception? Now they are saying that you betrayed the nation

:19:34. > :19:35.that gave you so much. For example, you now say to the international

:19:36. > :19:39.community, please, put sanctions on Israel. Boycott my country. Because

:19:40. > :19:45.that is the only way we are get change. To most Israelis, that

:19:46. > :19:51.is, frankly, a betrayal. much bigger betrayal is this

:19:52. > :19:56.military operation in Gaza. It created much more damage to the

:19:57. > :20:03.image of Israel than all my articles and speeches altogether.

:20:04. > :20:05.due respect to my articles, you cannot even compare. So those who

:20:06. > :20:46.really care about community to punish Israel

:20:47. > :20:48.collectively? It is the only wake`up call for the Israelis, to understand

:20:49. > :20:51.what is being done. Then we will what is being done. Then we will

:20:52. > :20:54.start to pay for the occupation. I think Israel should pay for the

:20:55. > :20:58.operation. I think Israel should be punished for the occupation. The

:20:59. > :21:00.occupation is an ongoing crime with us week after week. It is not about

:21:01. > :21:06.one detail or another detail, it is one detail or another detail, it is

:21:07. > :21:12.about the basic situation. Which one people is governing by brutal force

:21:13. > :21:18.another people for 46 years. Someone has to be accountable for this. And

:21:19. > :21:28.the change will not come from within. Sorry that I

:21:29. > :21:38.back to the personal level. I want to talk about your own

:21:39. > :22:49.have sons in this country. Israeli sons. You