:01:36. > :01:41.problems are not solved. Half an hour away from here, there are two
:01:42. > :01:44.million, three million Palestinians living under a brutal occupation and
:01:45. > :01:48.as long as those beaches remain as peaceful as they are and the beaches
:01:49. > :01:57.of Gaza continue to be full of ruins and dead bodies, this cannot go on
:01:58. > :02:05.like this. It is really living in denial.
:02:06. > :02:08.Does it bother you that the views you have appear to appeal to the
:02:09. > :02:12.tiniest of tiny minorities inside this country?
:02:13. > :02:18.Even now, you are exaggerating a bit. It is even less than this. I'm
:02:19. > :02:27.not a politician and I am not looking for gaining a majority. I'm
:02:28. > :02:32.writing what I believe in genuinely. This is my view and I will stick to
:02:33. > :02:39.it as long as I can continue to express myself in this country. You
:02:40. > :02:43.say that you will stick to it but we know that over the last few weeks,
:02:44. > :02:45.as you have written about Israel's conduct in its military
:02:46. > :02:48.confrontation with Hamas in Gaza, enormous numbers of people have been
:02:49. > :02:54.infuriated. People around this city yell at you and make threats against
:02:55. > :02:59.you. Are you prepared to live with that?
:03:00. > :03:05.I do not know if it will go on like this but I will not leave this
:03:06. > :03:08.place. Even now, you have to hire a
:03:09. > :03:19.bodyguard if you are going to go into very public places. It seems to
:03:20. > :03:22.me that this is a message, telling you that you do not have much of a
:03:23. > :03:26.future in this country. What alternative do I have? I'm not
:03:27. > :03:42.going to change my mind, I'm not going to shut my mouth and I'm not
:03:43. > :03:45.going to leave this place. None of these are possibilities and so I
:03:46. > :03:48.will stay here and do as much as I can. Let us continue this
:03:49. > :03:51.conversation where your words are turned into newsprint, the offices
:03:52. > :03:55.of Haaretz. I want to know what is in your mind when you write.
:03:56. > :03:58.Do you set out to provoke, to inflame?
:03:59. > :04:01.I do not think provoke is the right word. I want to try and shake
:04:02. > :04:04.Israeli people out of their unbelievable indifference, apathy
:04:05. > :04:12.and lack of any kind of moral judgement. I want to shake them one
:04:13. > :04:15.way or the other with my very, very modest powers because I'm only one
:04:16. > :04:26.journalist working for a small newspaper. I'm trying to do this but
:04:27. > :04:30.if this creates anger then... It seems to me that there is
:04:31. > :04:34.arrogance in what you do because you have said in the past, "My mission,"
:04:35. > :04:37.and you use the word mission, "is to prevent Israelis from saying we did
:04:38. > :04:42.not know what was happening in the occupied territories." Should
:04:43. > :05:48.journalism have a mission? their behalf. For this, you do not
:05:49. > :05:49.need Arabic. You know as well as I do that for good journalism, you can
:05:50. > :05:56.do it with Hebrew, English and translators. Saying he does not
:05:57. > :05:59.speak Arabic means nothing. I talk about people as human beings and
:06:00. > :06:05.there are very few Israelis who talk of Palestinians like human beings.
:06:06. > :06:23.Let us get into what you said, "No other war has turned my
:06:24. > :06:26.stomach like this one has." And you have directed your condemnatory fire
:06:27. > :06:28.particularly at the commanders of the Israeli military, leading
:06:29. > :06:41.pilots in the Air Force, who you doing their jobs. Some
:06:42. > :06:43.pilots in the Air Force, who you said were "perpetrating the
:06:44. > :06:46.cruellest and most despicable of deeds, these, the finest of our
:06:47. > :06:53.young military men." That is something which to so many Israelis
:06:54. > :06:56.crossed a red line. First of all, I do not believe in
:06:57. > :06:58.red lines. In times of war when things are still happening, I
:06:59. > :07:01.thought and I still think that Israelis cannot live with this
:07:02. > :07:08.luxury of not taking any kind of accountability towards what is being
:07:09. > :07:11.done on their behalf. Let me quote to you one former
:07:12. > :07:14.pilot, a self`appointed leftist, who responded in public to you, saying,
:07:15. > :07:17."It is infuriating to see Gideon Levy throw mud at those who are
:07:18. > :07:25.doing their utmost to serve this country." And he said the
:07:26. > :07:28.implication that military men, soldiers, should disobey orders they
:07:29. > :07:37.disagree with is going to rebound on the left.
:07:38. > :07:40.it may be soldiers refusing to close down Jewish settlements on occupied
:07:41. > :07:43.territory and who use the same arguments that you use, that in the
:07:44. > :07:50.end, soldiers should not follow orders that cross an ethical line
:07:51. > :07:53.for them personally. There is a big difference between
:07:54. > :07:56.evacuation of settlements and destruction and killing.
:07:57. > :08:02.In your mind. No, no. In any moral standard,
:08:03. > :08:06.killing and demolishing is not like evacuating, with all due respect.
:08:07. > :08:13.And illegal by international law, by
:08:14. > :08:16.local law. But when you see this massive destruction, especially in
:08:17. > :08:18.the first days, from the air, someone has to be at least aware
:08:19. > :08:23.that the pilot who sits in cockpit and sees those images and
:08:24. > :08:36.pushes the button, he is not always aware of the outcome on the ground.
:08:37. > :08:43.800 children and women killed is OK? 2,000, 3,000? When do you stop? Only
:08:44. > :08:45.because they had orders? Only because they do not see the
:08:46. > :08:50.They have no immunity. And I think They have no immunity. And I think
:08:51. > :08:55.some of the pilots, most of the pilots, are very moral people and
:08:56. > :09:03.that is exactly why I wrote it. I used the word arrogance earlier. I
:09:04. > :09:06.wonder if you ever pause to wonder why so few Israelis, whether in
:09:07. > :09:10.uniform or out, appear to have any sympathy with your argument? Could
:09:11. > :09:21.it just be that in terms of this country, its security and its
:09:22. > :09:25.future, you might just be wrong? Now I will give you an arrogant
:09:26. > :09:28.answer. There are so many cases in history in which the very few were
:09:29. > :10:15.the right and the history in which the very few were
:10:16. > :10:21.period. You have used the word fascism. You have said,
:10:22. > :10:25.past but now I think the time has come to use the word fascism for
:10:26. > :10:36.what is happening in Israel today.". I have seen signs of fascism. I
:10:37. > :10:39.still see them. As a disease, it is always good to find it as early as
:10:40. > :10:43.possible and the first symptoms are here. How dare you say that to an
:10:44. > :10:46.Israeli public with all of the collective memory that this country
:10:47. > :10:49.has? And indeed yourself, the son of German and Czech refugees who just
:10:50. > :10:54.managed to escape from Nazism? I see the symptoms. If some Israelis
:10:55. > :10:57.were scared to go to demonstrate against this war, and I know so many
:10:58. > :11:00.who were physically scared to go, if a leading leader of the Israeli
:11:01. > :11:04.parliament is calling African asylum seekers cancer, if a leading figure
:11:05. > :11:07.of the Likud Party is calling for me to be brought to court for treason
:11:08. > :11:11.main concern, Stephen, is not that those are the first symptoms and my
:11:12. > :11:17.main concern, Stephen, is not that we are fascist. I do not think we
:11:18. > :11:20.are yet there. My main concern is that there is no`one to stop fascism
:11:21. > :11:29.here. saying is so wrongheaded because you
:11:30. > :11:47.are perversely looking at the wrong end of the problem.
:11:48. > :11:48.Hamas, an organisation that is committed to the elimination of the
:11:49. > :11:54.Jewish state, Mediterranean to the Jordan River.
:11:55. > :11:58.That is in the minds of many Israelis a totalitarian ideology
:11:59. > :12:04.that Israel has to confront. No doubt, no doubt. Hamas is not my
:12:05. > :12:11.cup of tea. I did not vote for Hamas. But Hamas is a Palestinian
:12:12. > :12:16.movement and I am much more concerned about Israeli society.
:12:17. > :12:18.Israel always was free. Freedom is one of the strongest assets of
:12:19. > :13:04.Israel, not. I'm trying to raise a different
:13:05. > :13:06.voice. If you look at the reality today, I
:13:07. > :13:20.have talked Jewish state of Israel. And in this
:13:21. > :14:08.context for you to argue to Israelis that they should take a
:14:09. > :14:10.context for you to argue to Israelis What will you get? The Finnish
:14:11. > :14:17.government? The Swedish government? You will get Somalia. What is the
:14:18. > :14:20.alternative? Peace with Hamas, with Fatah, with anyone who is there, or
:14:21. > :14:23.to wait for all of those catastrophes to come and then really
:14:24. > :14:30.there will be no path forward. I want to bring this back to the more
:14:31. > :14:32.personal sense. You forged many of your ideas by travelling through the
:14:33. > :14:36.occupied territory and watching occupation. I wonder if it might be
:14:37. > :14:39.time for you, Gideon Levy, to spend more time travelling in your own
:14:40. > :14:42.country, talking to your own compatriots. For example, maybe if
:14:43. > :14:45.you went to a kibbutz today, the kibbutz where two men just a few
:14:46. > :14:48.days ago were killed by Hamas rockets, men who have now left
:14:49. > :14:51.widows and children behind, people who were not part of the war, who
:14:52. > :14:54.were almost certainly leftists because they were in a kibbutz,
:14:55. > :14:58.which is by and large of the left, and if you spoke to those families
:14:59. > :15:02.or if you spoke to the mother of a boy who was killed by a Hamas rocket
:15:03. > :15:06.just a few days before that, maybe you would develop a different sense?
:15:07. > :15:12.I would and I did it again and again in this war.
:15:13. > :15:23.I have been to the kibbutzim, I have been to these places. I have a lot
:15:24. > :15:25.of empathy for those people. And there are so many Israeli
:15:26. > :15:30.journalists who cover their sacrifice. And I cannot make the
:15:31. > :15:35.comparison, with all due respect, with their suffering vis`a`vis the
:15:36. > :15:38.suffering of Gaza. For me, the suffering of Gaza, which is on an
:15:39. > :15:48.entirely different scale, is burning in my bones. I might even say more
:15:49. > :15:51.because it is a bigger catastrophe. And those are human beings exactly
:15:52. > :15:55.like the people in the south and their suffering has now gone on for
:15:56. > :15:58.65 years and we cannot see the end of it. I cannot ignore this
:15:59. > :16:01.suffering. And there are enough of my colleagues who cover and rightly
:16:02. > :16:02.so the Israeli sacrifice. Let one journalist also cover the other
:16:03. > :16:17.side. Let us talk about the politics of
:16:18. > :16:28.this country. When I lived here not so long ago, the Labour Party was
:16:29. > :16:32.the dominant force. It was the party of Peres. Now Labour struggles to
:16:33. > :16:39.win more than a handful of seats in the elections. The left as a whole
:16:40. > :16:42.has been reduced. I just wonder why you think that is and whether you
:16:43. > :16:46.believe, frankly, there is any hope of reviving the left in this
:16:47. > :16:58.country. The left was smashed after the lie that there was no
:16:59. > :17:02.Palestinian partner. And the second intifada. After the exploding buses
:17:03. > :17:05.and the line that there is no Palestinian partner. There were
:17:06. > :17:12.question marks, how solid was it in the first place? With respect, if
:17:13. > :17:15.one takes it away from the politicians but thinks about the
:17:16. > :17:19.most respected leftist cultural figures, a writer, he says what has
:17:20. > :17:25.undermined the left more than anything else is what happened after
:17:26. > :17:36.the withdrawal from Gaza. Because finally, Sharon gave the
:17:37. > :17:39.Palestinians what they wanted in Gaza, which was the withdrawal of
:17:40. > :17:41.Israeli forces. You run your own affairs, is the message. Hamas was
:17:42. > :18:21.in control. The rockets began. In outside the jail, rather than
:18:22. > :18:34.inside. a cage would throw flowers at
:18:35. > :18:44.Israel, wait for the world to save them? How
:18:45. > :18:50.can the world expect this? I many Israelis would say, listen to
:18:51. > :18:58.Gideon Levy, he And he enjoys the freedom of
:18:59. > :19:04.expression that Israel offers. He enjoys the prosperity that the state
:19:05. > :19:17.has delivered to Jewish people, just like him. Anti` `` and he mouths
:19:18. > :19:21.off, criticising modern`day Zionism without which he would not exist.
:19:22. > :19:23.Should I be grateful for this? This should go without saying. To be
:19:24. > :19:27.grateful for Israel that lets me speak, are we are saying that it
:19:28. > :19:33.must be an exception? Now they are saying that you betrayed the nation
:19:34. > :19:35.that gave you so much. For example, you now say to the international
:19:36. > :19:39.community, please, put sanctions on Israel. Boycott my country. Because
:19:40. > :19:45.that is the only way we are get change. To most Israelis, that
:19:46. > :19:51.is, frankly, a betrayal. much bigger betrayal is this
:19:52. > :19:56.military operation in Gaza. It created much more damage to the
:19:57. > :20:03.image of Israel than all my articles and speeches altogether.
:20:04. > :20:05.due respect to my articles, you cannot even compare. So those who
:20:06. > :20:46.really care about community to punish Israel
:20:47. > :20:48.collectively? It is the only wake`up call for the Israelis, to understand
:20:49. > :20:51.what is being done. Then we will what is being done. Then we will
:20:52. > :20:54.start to pay for the occupation. I think Israel should pay for the
:20:55. > :20:58.operation. I think Israel should be punished for the occupation. The
:20:59. > :21:00.occupation is an ongoing crime with us week after week. It is not about
:21:01. > :21:06.one detail or another detail, it is one detail or another detail, it is
:21:07. > :21:12.about the basic situation. Which one people is governing by brutal force
:21:13. > :21:18.another people for 46 years. Someone has to be accountable for this. And
:21:19. > :21:28.the change will not come from within. Sorry that I
:21:29. > :21:38.back to the personal level. I want to talk about your own
:21:39. > :22:49.have sons in this country. Israeli sons. You