Olexander Scherba - Ambassador-at-large, Ukraine Foreign Ministry

Download Subtitles

Transcript

:00:00. > :00:15.That is it. You are up to date. Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

:00:16. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk. Vladimir Putin is reported to have

:00:19. > :00:24.said he could take the Ukrainian capital Kiev in two weeks if he

:00:25. > :00:26.wanted to. As he offers increasingly brazen support to the pro`Russian

:00:27. > :00:37.rebels in eastern Ukraine, his message to the West is clear, don't

:00:38. > :00:40.mess with Russia. My guest today is senior Ukrainian diplomat, Olexander

:00:41. > :01:11.Scherba. Can Kiev afford to risk all`out war with Moscow?

:01:12. > :01:23.Olexander Scherba, in Kiev, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. It seems to me

:01:24. > :01:29.your government has experienced a dramatic reality check in the last

:01:30. > :01:33.week or two. It seems you believed it could be the separatist rebels

:01:34. > :01:39.militarily and now that looks like a major missed judgement. Would you

:01:40. > :01:44.accept that. `` Woodya accept that? I don't know whether you can talk

:01:45. > :01:49.about it as a major missed judgement. We played with the cards

:01:50. > :01:55.in our hands and we were basically winning this ward as you pointed out

:01:56. > :02:01.and you are absolutely correct. But, it is one thing to fight the

:02:02. > :02:04.terrorists to enjoy Russia's support and another thing to fight Russia

:02:05. > :02:10.who enjoys the support of terrorists. We have no alternative

:02:11. > :02:16.but to fight back. We have only one Ukraine. It wasn't our choice, this

:02:17. > :02:21.war. After a thousand options, this would be the last one we would pick.

:02:22. > :02:27.The reality is we have to fight back. I come back to the point about

:02:28. > :02:34.this judgement. Did you and the government ever seriously think that

:02:35. > :02:38.Moscow would simply watch as your forces rolled into and right through

:02:39. > :02:43.Luhansk, Donetsk and the other cities currently in the control of

:02:44. > :02:53.the rebels? `` missed judgement. We always knew that the full`fledged

:02:54. > :03:04.invasion was real. It was an option that we had to be aware of. But, we

:03:05. > :03:10.were hoping that the sanctions and the warning of further sanctions

:03:11. > :03:17.from the West would suffice to stop Putin. But, basically, the signal he

:03:18. > :03:26.is sending by moving in his regular troops is not only, don't mess with

:03:27. > :03:31.Russia, but that he doesn't care about what the West says. And, the

:03:32. > :03:37.West should maybe change the tactics on Ukraine. We will talk about what

:03:38. > :03:43.you want to see from the West in a second bite you blithely talk about

:03:44. > :03:48.the reality of Russian troops. Of course, Moscow denies that. They

:03:49. > :03:54.have acknowledged a few men, by accident, ended up on Ukrainian

:03:55. > :03:59.territory. They insist there is no wholesale invasion by thousands of

:04:00. > :04:08.Russian troops. What is your proof of your absolute proof that Moscow

:04:09. > :04:12.is lying about that? `` your proof, your absolute proof. First of all,

:04:13. > :04:18.there are satellite pictures. Second of all, there are Youtube... Youtube

:04:19. > :04:24.is flooded with reels of Russian tanks rolling in. Not everything you

:04:25. > :04:30.see on Youtube is quite what it seems, is it? I am sure that you

:04:31. > :04:35.know that. Third of all, Russian troops aren't really concerned with

:04:36. > :04:41.secrecy. Almost every second, Russian soldiers have an account on

:04:42. > :04:47.social networks and they are blurting out openly where they are

:04:48. > :04:53.and what they are doing. So, these three... The first evidence is the

:04:54. > :04:59.most important. The satellite pictures from Nato which leaves no

:05:00. > :05:07.room for any other interpretation. Russian troops are in Ukraine. They

:05:08. > :05:11.are a big. By the way, the first proof is the words by the

:05:12. > :05:18.separatists themselves, their so`called Prime Minister just one

:05:19. > :05:24.week ago thanked Russia on camera publicly for 1200 troops and 70

:05:25. > :05:30.military vehicles supplied to Donetsk People's Republic. That was

:05:31. > :05:36.one or two weeks ago. You can imagine it is much bigger. Maybe,

:05:37. > :05:41.the ultimate proof, although it is something that you just have to take

:05:42. > :05:45.as read in a sense, is that the total balance of military power in

:05:46. > :05:51.the east has changed. In recent days, your forces... Absolutely.

:05:52. > :05:58.Your forces have been made to retreat from Luhansk Airport, a

:05:59. > :06:04.major strategic air port. We have seen barrier poll, an important

:06:05. > :06:09.strategic city, under threat. It is obvious that your Ukrainian military

:06:10. > :06:16.forces cannot compete `` Mariupol. The separatists seem able to call on

:06:17. > :06:24.extra firepower. It depends on the spirit. 300 Spartans couldn't

:06:25. > :06:30.compete with the army of Dareus the great. But, they did what they did

:06:31. > :06:34.and we believe in our army. We know that we are on our land and we have

:06:35. > :06:41.nowhere to retreat. We have to fight back. Russians are on our land, they

:06:42. > :06:46.are the aggressors and they are slowly starting to realise that

:06:47. > :06:49.their role here is very doubtful. President Poroshenko in Brussels,

:06:50. > :06:54.speaking with EU leaders a few days ago said, I think we are close to

:06:55. > :07:01.the point of no return and that point of no return is full scale

:07:02. > :07:03.war. Is that something that you and other senior officials inside the

:07:04. > :07:10.key of government are now planning for, full`scale war between your

:07:11. > :07:18.country and Russia? It certainly is a possibility that we won't exclude

:07:19. > :07:23.under current circumstances. We are in a surreal situation right now

:07:24. > :07:29.because we say openly that Russia is conducting a war on Ukraine. But, we

:07:30. > :07:37.are avoiding the formulation that Ukraine is at war with Russia. So,

:07:38. > :07:44.it is a kind of diplomatic strange thing. But, we cannot afford right

:07:45. > :07:49.now to declare war on Russia and give them the pretext to basically

:07:50. > :07:55.send in brigade by brigade by brigade. How intimidated are you by

:07:56. > :08:00.the words of Vladimir Putin? It is reported that he said to Jose Manuel

:08:01. > :08:05.Flores so, the outgoing EU commission chief, I could take Kiev

:08:06. > :08:15.in two weeks if I wanted to `` Baroso. Are you fearful when you

:08:16. > :08:22.hear that message? I am not fearful. But, we are aware of how grave this

:08:23. > :08:27.situation is and we are still hopeful that the West will help us

:08:28. > :08:32.not only with words or sanctions, as important as they are, but in other

:08:33. > :08:38.ways that are obviously very important when a nation fight a

:08:39. > :08:41.war, especially with such a hateful and powerful enemy as Russia. You

:08:42. > :08:49.are one of Ukraine's top diplomats. You tell me what Ukraine makes of

:08:50. > :08:53.Western responses in recent days since we have seen the ratcheting up

:08:54. > :08:57.of separatist military operations in the east, the new southern front

:08:58. > :09:01.opening up, and EU Summit that we have had, which talked about

:09:02. > :09:05.expanded sanctions but did not deliver and said they would talk

:09:06. > :09:11.again over the following week to decide exactly what to do. You tell

:09:12. > :09:18.me what you make of that response. Well, I won't hide from you some

:09:19. > :09:24.messages that came from the summit were disappointing. To hear the

:09:25. > :09:30.words that we don't see a military solution to the conflict and won't

:09:31. > :09:36.supply Ukraine with weapons. It sounds good with Western audiences,

:09:37. > :09:41.but the thing is that the other side does believe in the military option.

:09:42. > :09:45.And, the other side has no scruples whatsoever to send in troops, to

:09:46. > :09:53.supply troops, to supply regular Army. This particular point was

:09:54. > :09:58.disappointing. Hang on, I have got to stop you there because you have

:09:59. > :10:01.opened up a new split with your own president. Petro Poroshenko has said

:10:02. > :10:08.in the past he does not believe that Europe or the West should supply

:10:09. > :10:14.arms to your forces and you seem to be suggesting that they should. What

:10:15. > :10:22.is Ukraine's real position? He said that Europe shouldn't supply the

:10:23. > :10:26.troops. That is our position. We don't expect troops, but we expect

:10:27. > :10:36.the equipment, we expect the military equipment. Right now, every

:10:37. > :10:42.soldier, I am sorry, every drunk in those areas, those troubled areas of

:10:43. > :10:47.Ukraine, is armed by Russia. Every person has a Kalashnikov in his

:10:48. > :10:56.hands. And, we are running out of weapons here. For instance, we are

:10:57. > :11:00.rather low on aircraft right now because Russia is so generous with

:11:01. > :11:07.supplying these so`called separatists. This is what the

:11:08. > :11:10.President was talking about. OK, so you do want arms, the problem is

:11:11. > :11:14.that the Europeans are divided on this and while you have the support

:11:15. > :11:18.of some European member states of the EU, that is I am thinking of the

:11:19. > :11:25.Lithuanian president who did say that we need to help Ukraine defend

:11:26. > :11:30.itself sending military materials. Your problem is that, rather more

:11:31. > :11:36.significant EU leaders starting with Angela Merkel, say, quoting her, we

:11:37. > :11:39.shouldn't create the impression that with weapons shipments and

:11:40. > :11:43.strengthening the Ukrainian army, we could create a solution. She simply

:11:44. > :11:50.does not see that as being in any way helpful. She also should be

:11:51. > :11:56.worried about not creating an impression that Europe gives up on a

:11:57. > :12:02.country who chose democracy and freedom and now is getting punished

:12:03. > :12:07.for it by a country that hates Ukrainian freedom and free Ukrainian

:12:08. > :12:14.democracy. I would strongly advise if Europe, the EU, because of major

:12:15. > :12:20.misjudgement, because of the fear of Putin, for whatever reasons, or just

:12:21. > :12:29.in the desire to have a successful recession in the economy, would give

:12:30. > :12:33.up on Ukraine, would let Russiasplit and dismember Ukraine.

:12:34. > :12:40.This will port Europe for ever. This would be the beginning of the moral

:12:41. > :12:45.decay for the European idea. This is the only wart right now in the last

:12:46. > :12:52.12 years that is purely about democracy and freedom. This is not

:12:53. > :12:55.Afghanistan, this is not Iraq, were economic interests and energy is

:12:56. > :13:00.involved. This is not Mali, this is not Kosovo where ethnic tensions

:13:01. > :13:05.play a role. This is about Ukraine's choice for democracy and

:13:06. > :13:08.freedom. And, Russia's attempt to punish Ukraine for this choice. You

:13:09. > :13:11.used a classic diplomatic work, you said you were disappointed with what

:13:12. > :13:16.you have recently heard from EU leaders. I wonder, let's forget the

:13:17. > :13:20.diplomatic language and be honest with each other, how far would you

:13:21. > :13:25.go, for example, Senator John McCain in the US are the Western response,

:13:26. > :13:28.the inability of the West to stand up to Vladimir Putin has been, to

:13:29. > :13:34.use his work, laughable. What word would you use?

:13:35. > :13:44.One word was disappointing. That is the `` diplomat speak. I want you to

:13:45. > :13:48.be honest. Beyond disappointed, how on negativity you feel about the

:13:49. > :13:52.leadership that has come from the EU and Washington since this crisis got

:13:53. > :14:05.so much worse, just a couple of weeks ago? One word would be weak.

:14:06. > :14:08.The West looks really weak, especially in the face of a nation

:14:09. > :14:19.that is power drunk, and nuclear nation. The West looks week and

:14:20. > :14:25.decadent. `` weak. I am running out of words, sorry. For a diplomat to

:14:26. > :14:29.say that is interesting in itself. What is also interesting, at the

:14:30. > :14:34.same time as your condemnation of what you see from the Western

:14:35. > :14:39.powers, your Prime Minister makes something of a U`turn and suddenly

:14:40. > :14:44.declares that Ukraine is now very eager to be a full member of Nato.

:14:45. > :14:49.It seems odd that on the one hand you condemn what you hear it out of

:14:50. > :14:53.Nato member state and of the other hand you are trying to convince Nato

:14:54. > :14:58.to let you join as a full member. Absolutely. There is no

:14:59. > :15:06.contradiction whatsoever. Just look at the situation. It's very simple.

:15:07. > :15:10.There are two groups in the country. One that can get attacked by Russia

:15:11. > :15:16.and one that can't. The first one is a Nato member. The second is non`

:15:17. > :15:20.Nato members. If you want to be the first group the logic is simple. But

:15:21. > :15:27.it wasn't simple a few months ago, when I sat down with your Prime

:15:28. > :15:33.Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk in Kiev. He assured me that, despite the

:15:34. > :15:37.crisis, it was not on Ukraine's agenda to become a member or to seek

:15:38. > :15:42.meant the ship of Nato. What on earth has changed? Are you now are

:15:43. > :15:51.deliberately trying to antagonise Moscow in a deeper way? If you ask

:15:52. > :15:57.me five months ago whether I would say yes to Nato expansion and to

:15:58. > :16:01.Ukraine becoming a Nato member, I would say no. We had too much to

:16:02. > :16:12.lose with Russia. The perspective of Nato membership was too flimsy, is

:16:13. > :16:17.that the word? That's a word. It is a word that applies. Because it is

:16:18. > :16:20.flimsy. It seems Nato members have absolutely no intention of

:16:21. > :16:26.contemplating Ukraine's full membership of their organisation.

:16:27. > :16:31.But now we have nothing to lose, basically, with Russia. Because

:16:32. > :16:38.Putin has burnt all the bridges. He talks about Ukraine basically openly

:16:39. > :16:44.as a failed state. He talks about Ukraine like Hitler spoke about

:16:45. > :16:49.Poland in 1939. What should we are reaction? Appeasement? We don't

:16:50. > :16:53.believe in that any more. But unless Nato member states want to

:16:54. > :16:57.contemplate a full`fledged war between Nato and Moscow, they are

:16:58. > :17:03.going to think very hard before taking seriously any application you

:17:04. > :17:07.make for membership. Well, it's the decision you have to make. Our

:17:08. > :17:14.decision is our decision and we have been as blunt, maybe not as much as

:17:15. > :17:19.Putin, as blunt as he is with Ukraine, but we have spoken with

:17:20. > :17:22.open language. We have had enough of this situation, where we are

:17:23. > :17:28.basically I'm armed, undefended, unprotected. In 1994, we gave up the

:17:29. > :17:34.third nuclear arsenal in the world. We were a superpower. We gave it up

:17:35. > :17:40.for one reason, it was Russia, Great Britain, the US, France and China

:17:41. > :17:48.gave asked the assurances that they would project I'll integrity, our

:17:49. > :17:54.borders, our security. `` gave us. We now have nothing. We received a

:17:55. > :17:59.total betrayal in return for the third biggest nuclear arsenal in the

:18:00. > :18:05.world. That's our situation. Don't be surprised if we are bit angry. I

:18:06. > :18:11.appreciate you are a bit angry and I can sense that. But surely you have

:18:12. > :18:15.to be a realist. Russia is always going to be a massive power on your

:18:16. > :18:21.eastern border. Russia isn't going anywhere and, in the end, rather

:18:22. > :18:24.than making the symbolic gestures, saying you want to be a part of

:18:25. > :18:29.Nato, which is a breadline for Moscow and it would never allow it

:18:30. > :18:34.to happen, wouldn't it be wiser and more sensible for you and your

:18:35. > :18:46.colleagues to get serious about a real dialogue? `` a bread line. Real

:18:47. > :18:59.diplomacy? That's very difficult. It's very difficult to conduct

:19:00. > :19:06.negotiations with the nation that calls Ukraine the formerly known

:19:07. > :19:09.Ukraine, to a nation that spokes openly about Ukraine's

:19:10. > :19:13.dismemberment. It would be wiser, instead of convincing Ukraine that

:19:14. > :19:20.it should give up and be more fearful in the face of Russia, the

:19:21. > :19:25.West should speak to Russia and speak to Putin and say, if you don't

:19:26. > :19:32.want Ukraine to become a Nato member, if you don't want Ukraine to

:19:33. > :19:38.be really difficult partner for you in the decades to come, then change

:19:39. > :19:41.your attitude. But if we just get serious about what you might be

:19:42. > :19:44.talking about at the moment, and of course you and your colleagues have

:19:45. > :19:47.had meetings with the Russians recently and I believe there will be

:19:48. > :19:57.more meetings to come, the question is what you are prepared to talk

:19:58. > :20:02.about. The Russian UN envoy says, where is the inclusive, national

:20:03. > :20:06.dialogue that was promised by Kiev? The constitutional reforms? The

:20:07. > :20:10.decentralisation of authority? Special status for the Russian

:20:11. > :20:15.language? The Russians don't believe you are serious about giving

:20:16. > :20:19.recognition to these special `` to the special status of those people

:20:20. > :20:26.in eastern Ukraine who are currently fighting for separation. About the

:20:27. > :20:31.meeting in Minsk, you know the facts. The president of Russia

:20:32. > :20:41.smiled at our president, shook hands, spoke about his and stood

:20:42. > :20:44.up. `` about peace. The chair he was sitting on was still warm when he

:20:45. > :20:48.ordered the tanks to roll in. Bear with us if we are bit sceptical

:20:49. > :20:55.about whatever signals come from Russia. About the signals coming

:20:56. > :21:04.from Russia, including this constant complaining by the UN envoy, until

:21:05. > :21:07.recently the Prime Minister of the so`called Donetsk People's

:21:08. > :21:12.Republic, that was a Russian citizen. He came on the orders of

:21:13. > :21:22.the Russian government to start this turmoil. You know who the Defence

:21:23. > :21:32.Minister was? He refers to himself as a Russian citizen, a big friend

:21:33. > :21:41.of the man who also can disturb the turmoil. So, basically, who are we

:21:42. > :21:49.supposed to talk to? Never mind that. It is an unbelievable tragedy

:21:50. > :21:54.that has been brought onto us. We are almost out of time. We are where

:21:55. > :21:58.we are. Some believe the only possible outcome in this situation

:21:59. > :22:02.is for Ukraine to accept a formula perhaps like in Bosnia, where the

:22:03. > :22:06.Republic has a huge amount of autonomy within a sovereign Bosnia.

:22:07. > :22:12.Would you be prepared to accept that sort of solution in eastern Ukraine.

:22:13. > :22:16.`` eastern Ukraine? I will tell you what we are not prepared to accept,

:22:17. > :22:22.dismemberment of Ukraine. We are prepared to speak to Russians,

:22:23. > :22:27.Russian citizens, or to the people who have Ukrainian blood on their

:22:28. > :22:38.hands. Other than that, I'm not entitled to discuss any options but

:22:39. > :22:43.I wouldn't be surprised if people in Kiev were very wary to any

:22:44. > :22:48.reasonable suggestions coming right now. When Vladimir Putin says

:22:49. > :22:52.statehood for eastern Ukraine has to be one option on the negotiating

:22:53. > :23:01.table, what do you say to that? Well, he rephrased his words

:23:02. > :23:09.afterwards and said the forms of statehood, the issues related to

:23:10. > :23:13.statehood. It wasn't as director. I don't want to justify Putin but in

:23:14. > :23:19.that particular case maybe he just blurted out something that was on

:23:20. > :23:24.his mind but not the official line of the nation. Finally, you are a

:23:25. > :23:29.diplomat, not an economist, but you know better than me that the IMF

:23:30. > :23:34.says your economy will contract by at least 6.5% this year. Your

:23:35. > :23:37.currency is down 6% against the dollar and your own Prime Minister

:23:38. > :23:42.says you are losing economic potential by the day. Ukraine cannot

:23:43. > :23:50.afford for this crisis to continue the way it has been going. Ukraine

:23:51. > :23:55.couldn't afford this war in the first place, in March or April, and

:23:56. > :24:00.it can't afford it in September. We are in a position where we have no

:24:01. > :24:09.other option. But I just want to appeal to Europe. I know your

:24:10. > :24:12.audience is enormous. Europe cannot afford to let Russia dismember

:24:13. > :24:17.Ukraine. This would be a huge blow to Europe. Ukraine is fighting

:24:18. > :24:25.Europe's war, not only the Ukrainian law. This war is about democracy and

:24:26. > :24:27.freedom. `` war. Thank you for joining me from Kiev.

:24:28. > :24:55.Thank you. The top temperature on Tuesday was

:24:56. > :24:56.recorded