:00:00. > :00:13.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:14. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk, I Stephen Sackur. Today, I have an exclusive
:00:21. > :00:24.interview with the President of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko. He is
:00:25. > :00:30.here in Britain to attend a summit of Nato leaders. The consensus view
:00:31. > :00:34.here is that the crisis in Ukraine represents the most serious threat
:00:35. > :00:39.to European stability since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Ukraine and
:00:40. > :00:44.short steps away from all`out war. short steps away from all`out war.
:00:45. > :00:47.But there is now a ceasefire plan, and the hope is it can work. So, is
:00:48. > :01:13.there a path back from the brink? President Petro Poroshenko, welcome
:01:14. > :01:19.to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. How confident are you that a lasting
:01:20. > :01:27.ceasefire in eastern Ukraine is now within reach? That is one of the
:01:28. > :01:35.most difficult questions, I am absolutely not confident. I am
:01:36. > :01:38.confident that Ukraine, as a state, and as a Ukrainian leader, are doing
:01:39. > :01:50.everything possible to have peace in my country. I do my best to stop the
:01:51. > :01:54.war, to stop the massacre against Ukrainian civilians, and Ukrainian
:01:55. > :02:03.forces. It seems to me that you were in Iraq, and you know what massacre
:02:04. > :02:08.means, what more meat `` what more `` what war means. It is more than a
:02:09. > :02:17.question of economical difficulties, social difficulties,
:02:18. > :02:20.danger and risk. This is... A possible humanitarian catastrophe if
:02:21. > :02:25.the war will continue, if more and more Russian groups are in my
:02:26. > :02:33.territory, if people from Donetsk and Luhansk can be suffering from
:02:34. > :02:37.these attacks. At this point, I think the initiative of Ukraine,
:02:38. > :02:43.supported by the whole world, supported by the people of Don Bass,
:02:44. > :02:47.because 100% of people there want peace. Are you suggesting that you
:02:48. > :02:51.have reached a point, and we have seen that your military have
:02:52. > :02:55.suffered real reverses and losses in recent days, are you suggesting...?
:02:56. > :02:59.Not only us but Russia as well. I want to know whether you have
:03:00. > :03:06.reached a point where you want to stop the fighting, stop the gunfire,
:03:07. > :03:11.whatever the price? Immediately after the presidential elections, I
:03:12. > :03:16.put forward the initiative that I am ready for the immediate ceasefire.
:03:17. > :03:25.Even for stopping any negotiations... Blah blah. We are
:03:26. > :03:29.ready for the unilateral ceasefire, showing that we are ready to support
:03:30. > :03:37.things. That started on the 20th of June, less than three months after
:03:38. > :03:44.the inauguration ceremony, and this week, we had a ceasefire, and
:03:45. > :03:48.Ukraine lost 25 soldiers. Nobody from the terrorist side supports the
:03:49. > :03:57.ceasefire. If I may say so, it raises the question, right now, are
:03:58. > :04:00.you prepared to place any trust in the Russian president, Vladimir
:04:01. > :04:05.Putin? It's not a question of trusting the Russian president, in
:04:06. > :04:11.the current situation, we are much more prepared for the ceasefire.
:04:12. > :04:18.Point number one, we have to do our best to involve them in this
:04:19. > :04:26.process, the monitoring commission, and the whole world should know from
:04:27. > :04:31.this situation, who takes the responsibility for the violation of
:04:32. > :04:42.the ceasefire. Point number two, in the present situation, with the war
:04:43. > :04:47., Russia has supplied weapons, finance, and everything else. Now we
:04:48. > :04:51.have a different situation. Ukraine has Russian troops. How many Russian
:04:52. > :05:00.troops are you claiming are in your territory right now? We have, from
:05:01. > :05:10.different days, from 4000 to 8000 soldiers. More than 350 tanks and
:05:11. > :05:17.armoured personal vehicles. Very modern artillery. Rocket artillery.
:05:18. > :05:20.A missile system. Modern, state`of`the`art reconnaissance and
:05:21. > :05:30.intelligence weapons. With all of these factors, this is a direct
:05:31. > :05:36.aggression. The situation has completely changed. If you say that
:05:37. > :05:41.is the context, I wonder how you can talk to Vladimir Putin, and place an
:05:42. > :05:47.element of trust in his good faith if you are talking about a plan and
:05:48. > :05:52.a lasting ceasefire? When your own Prime Minister only yesterday said
:05:53. > :05:56.that he believed Russia was involved in" a deception intended to pull the
:05:57. > :06:03.wool over the eyes of the international community". Anyone,
:06:04. > :06:08.including the Prime Minister, can do the statement. I think there is
:06:09. > :06:12.significant parts of the truce and the reality in this kind of
:06:13. > :06:17.statement `` truth. For me, as president of the country, I have a
:06:18. > :06:18.full responsibility for the sovereignty of the territorial
:06:19. > :06:27.integrity and the security my country. In any circumstances, we
:06:28. > :06:33.should have a dialogue. I can be very frank with you. What we need
:06:34. > :06:38.now for the peace and stability of Ukraine... Everyone said about the
:06:39. > :06:42.15 points of peace plan `` the peace plan of Petro Poroshenko. That is
:06:43. > :06:50.true. It gives the power to the local authority. Defending their
:06:51. > :06:53.cultural right and amnesty law and other things which are absolutely
:06:54. > :06:59.necessary, and can be introduced and implemented. But, there are two main
:07:00. > :07:07.conditions now under the current circumstances. Firstly, Russia
:07:08. > :07:12.should withdraw the troops, and second, close the border. If it
:07:13. > :07:17.happens, within two weeks, it would mean peace and stability in Ukraine.
:07:18. > :07:22.For a long period of time. You talk about Russia pulling back its
:07:23. > :07:27.forces, but you prepared to say to me that you are willing to pull back
:07:28. > :07:35.your forces away from Luhansk, away from Donetsk, and leave those cities
:07:36. > :07:40.in the hands of separatists who you label "terrorists" . We are not
:07:41. > :07:43.talking about the withdrawal of our troops because it is our
:07:44. > :07:49.territorial. With respect, that is in the Putin 7`point plan, that you
:07:50. > :07:54.pull your forces back so they can no longer shall Donetsk, Luhansk, and
:07:55. > :07:59.other cities in separatist hands? I consider Putin' proposal as the sign
:08:00. > :08:12.the shared responsibility for the ceasefire. `` Putin's. The appeal
:08:13. > :08:22.and request for the illegal armed group to sign up to take part in the
:08:23. > :08:30.ceasefire, and the detailed peace plan, should probably be signed
:08:31. > :08:34.today. That is the basis for the political dialogue under the
:08:35. > :08:40.ceasefire. You cannot find amnesty there. There is no danger for this
:08:41. > :08:48.territorial integrity or sovereignty of my country. There is no one word
:08:49. > :08:54.that would put it in doubt. Isn't the brutal truth that you will have
:08:55. > :08:57.to accept his ceasefire agreement which leaves the separatists in
:08:58. > :09:04.control of large chunks of your territory, because you were losing
:09:05. > :09:10.the war on the ground? When Vladimir Putin said, apparently, to Mr
:09:11. > :09:19.Barroso of the European Commission a couple of days ago, I can take here
:09:20. > :09:23.than two weeks if I wanted to... `` Kiev. He was indicating that Russia
:09:24. > :09:35.has the cards in its hands, and you do not. Russia has 1,200,000 army
:09:36. > :09:44.troops. One of the most modern armies and weapons in the world.
:09:45. > :09:56.With this logic, the same way as Russia can take Kiev, Russia can
:09:57. > :10:03.take Tallin, Bucharest, Warsaw. Any other cities. If we are not united,
:10:04. > :10:08.and of the whole world does not is `` demonstrate solidarity with
:10:09. > :10:19.Ukraine. If we allow this way of treating the current situation, and
:10:20. > :10:23.the present situation, as I said... We will lose cities like Kiev. As
:10:24. > :10:31.for the situation on the ground, when I become a president, less than
:10:32. > :10:35.three months ago, the terrorists and separatists control, the full
:10:36. > :10:41.territory of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, and now they are shrinking
:10:42. > :10:46.the territory by two thirds, there is only one third left in control.
:10:47. > :10:56.This is the direct successive Ukrainian Armed Forces. That
:10:57. > :10:59.raises... Beforehand, it was us demonstrating effective action
:11:00. > :11:03.against the terrorists. Now, there is no war with the terrorists but
:11:04. > :11:10.the Russian army. I now want to focus particularly on what has
:11:11. > :11:13.happened at the Nato Summit, what you heard from Western leaders, and
:11:14. > :11:17.about how you feel about the international response to the crisis
:11:18. > :11:20.in Ukraine. One of your most senior Foreign Ministry official summed it
:11:21. > :11:25.up for me a couple of days ago in an interview. He said one word that he
:11:26. > :11:36.would use was "weak" . A weak response from Ukraine' friends. ``
:11:37. > :11:41.Ukraine's. I doubt anyone would have told you that after the summit. It
:11:42. > :11:47.was just before. The final statement was made before, that was weak.
:11:48. > :11:52.Because there was that negotiation with the leaders of the member
:11:53. > :12:01.states, the final resolution was much stronger. Never ever before...
:12:02. > :12:05.I have had a long diplomatic history and experience of diplomacy. I have
:12:06. > :12:10.never seen that any country would have such a level of support as
:12:11. > :12:16.yesterday Ukraine had on the commission, Ukraine and Nato. That
:12:17. > :12:22.is not just their verbal support. It was a practical step with the
:12:23. > :12:28.financing of the full trust fund, for the logistics, keeping the
:12:29. > :12:37.defence for the social guarantee of the soldiers after the war. Keeping
:12:38. > :12:41.every single country of Nato, they financed that. It is important that
:12:42. > :12:47.for the first time since the conflict started, no bilateral
:12:48. > :12:54.level, we have a strong statement about military corporation `` on a
:12:55. > :13:01.bilateral level. Including in the supply of military equipment.
:13:02. > :13:08.Let me put you on that. You were saying members of Nato were offering
:13:09. > :13:16.to provide you decision guided weapons, essentially. Yes. Which
:13:17. > :13:24.nations? This is confidential information. Only if you would be
:13:25. > :13:28.able to provide you. The most sophisticated militaries in Nato. We
:13:29. > :13:41.are talking the United dates, the United Kingdom. Just a few of us.
:13:42. > :13:47.This is the first time they have offered sophisticated weapons. You
:13:48. > :13:54.should understand, this is not just for the victory in this war. This is
:13:55. > :14:03.just for helping us to create European security. This is not a
:14:04. > :14:05.Walkley Ukraine. `` war for Ukraine. Nato soldiers on Ukrainian soil
:14:06. > :14:15.would be defending the freedom and democracy. The military, financial,
:14:16. > :14:19.technical support is vital for us. But there are clearly divisions
:14:20. > :14:25.within Nato and the European Union about how are the go in support of
:14:26. > :14:29.Ukraine. Angela Merkel has made it plain that she does not believe
:14:30. > :14:38.giving weapons to Ukraine would be helpful. There is not unity in Nato.
:14:39. > :14:45.There is no discussion as to the relationship with Ukraine. There is
:14:46. > :14:51.a different approach from different countries. Germany, it is true.
:14:52. > :15:02.Germany want to supply us with armour, helmets, medicine. Other
:15:03. > :15:07.countries supply as the armed vehicles and different types of
:15:08. > :15:13.weapons. I hate the idea that we have created an impression that we
:15:14. > :15:21.are preparing and hoping to win the war with Russia immediately now in
:15:22. > :15:26.this conflict. I support the message that this war is impossible to win
:15:27. > :15:32.with military means. Let us talk about sanctions. It is clear that
:15:33. > :15:38.the Europeans are ready to impose new sanctions, talking about
:15:39. > :15:43.specified targeted sanctions on companies involved in energy,
:15:44. > :15:49.defence, finance as well. And individuals. But they are not, it
:15:50. > :15:54.seems, going to take some sweeping measures. For example, blocking
:15:55. > :16:01.Russian access to electronic transfer payment systems, that is
:16:02. > :16:04.not on the table. Do you think the sanctions that we have seen from the
:16:05. > :16:15.EU and the United States have been enough? Points number one, first of
:16:16. > :16:20.all, we are for introducing the sanction. When you say they are
:16:21. > :16:28.ready, they have promised to they would not. The sanction is on the
:16:29. > :16:38.table. We are in support of this idea. So just to be clear, they did
:16:39. > :16:46.it against Iran in 2012. They have not promised you they will deliver.
:16:47. > :16:51.They have not promised me anything. That they will deliver a particular
:16:52. > :16:56.sanction. There are people in your country, indeed in your government,
:16:57. > :16:59.who will privately say we are disappointed that these sanctions
:17:00. > :17:05.have not been more sweeping and more damaging to Russia. These people in
:17:06. > :17:12.my government are not responsible. I can assure you that they are not
:17:13. > :17:16.responsible for the security. We do not have so much time left. I have
:17:17. > :17:23.got two questions for you. First of all, you want to be members of Nato,
:17:24. > :17:28.do you? It seems to be a change. He said it was not on the agenda. A
:17:29. > :17:33.prime minister says Ukraine wants to be in Nato. Our government has
:17:34. > :17:44.implemented the draft law based on the decision of the defence
:17:45. > :17:51.Council. We want... You described a non` Bloc status. Then he said,
:17:52. > :18:00.forget about that, we would like to be in Nato. Would you, yes or no? We
:18:01. > :18:07.would like to have better security. This is not just because... With
:18:08. > :18:15.respect, the Russians want an answer to this. They say, Ukrainian Nato is
:18:16. > :18:24.an absolute red light. We seek membership, yes. We seek now
:18:25. > :18:29.membership. And we seek now a new form of security. Our previous
:18:30. > :18:37.security guarantee was not enough. You should understand that the
:18:38. > :18:41.membership in Nato, 80% of the criteria, not in the military and
:18:42. > :18:46.security sphere, but for the economy, the rule of law,
:18:47. > :18:53.anticorruption reform, a long list of things. I promise you that we
:18:54. > :18:59.will have a referendum on Nato. If the Ukrainian people want to be in
:19:00. > :19:05.Nato, we will be. If not, we will find other security. That depends on
:19:06. > :19:15.what the Nato members want as well. Given the situation of the country,
:19:16. > :19:27.that cannot be certain. We had the summit, they said they were ready.
:19:28. > :19:32.Nato will keep it open. I am sure that we will have peace in my
:19:33. > :19:35.country. Let me switch to a different matter. Human rights
:19:36. > :19:40.groups have condemned the involvement of right`wing militia
:19:41. > :19:49.fighters in the fighting in eastern Ukraine. One brigade use a neo`Nazi
:19:50. > :19:55.insignia. Fighters have been on YouTube videos. Some of them
:19:56. > :20:00.acknowledging they are neofascist. Why do you allow these people to be
:20:01. > :20:10.part of the armed forces? They are not part of our Armed Forces. They
:20:11. > :20:17.are fighting in the frontline. They defend the rules and they are not
:20:18. > :20:22.Nazis. That is Russian propaganda. We are reforming the armed forces.
:20:23. > :20:28.There will not be any type of battalion. They will be united.
:20:29. > :20:33.Would you acknowledge there has been a mistake made allowing some of
:20:34. > :20:38.these people from the right sector and other organisations to take on
:20:39. > :20:49.uniforms to take up weapons and to fight alongside your own armed
:20:50. > :21:01.forces? They do not exist. They do not exist, it is not true. This is
:21:02. > :21:12.part of our national guard. There have patrol operations. Their action
:21:13. > :21:20.was very effective. They were supported by the people. I have seen
:21:21. > :21:25.it. The rumours about nationalists doing something wrong, this is not
:21:26. > :21:32.true. If it would be any evidence of the violations of law by any
:21:33. > :21:39.soldiers or any members of this battalion, immediately it would be
:21:40. > :21:44.in the court. Immediately it would be punished and prosecuted. A final
:21:45. > :21:50.thought. I refer to the balance of power between you and Moscow's. It
:21:51. > :21:58.seems to me Mr Putin still holds many cards. Your fundamental issue
:21:59. > :22:02.is not just military, Russian superiority on the battlefield, it
:22:03. > :22:07.is also economic. Your country is close to bankrupt. This is the price
:22:08. > :22:14.Ukraine paid for the war, the economic price. You are close to
:22:15. > :22:23.bankrupt. Unless Russia keeps the gas taps open, you will have the
:22:24. > :22:33.most profound energy crisis. We can survive without Russian gas.
:22:34. > :22:38.Unfortunately, the industrial hub of Donetsk has been completely
:22:39. > :22:43.destroyed. That is tragic. That is another explanation for why we need
:22:44. > :22:47.peace. I can assure you that when we have peace, the economic potential
:22:48. > :22:57.of Ukraine will be much bigger. We do not have a problem with
:22:58. > :23:04.negotiating on gas if we have peace. If we have peace we will not have a
:23:05. > :23:09.problem with energy, or safety. And we will find out the way how we can
:23:10. > :23:13.establish a good economic relationship with the whole world.
:23:14. > :23:16.What I can promise you, we will have one of the best investment
:23:17. > :23:23.climates. We will have the rule of law. We will have a strong fight
:23:24. > :23:31.against corruption. We can create an atmosphere that investors would be
:23:32. > :23:34.happy to come to Ukraine. We do not know what the next few hours and
:23:35. > :23:40.days will bring. Do you believe this is the beginning of the end of the
:23:41. > :23:47.fighting in western Ukraine? I promise you I will do my best. ``
:23:48. > :23:53.eastern Ukraine. We are ready to fight, to die for my country. That
:23:54. > :23:58.is the position of a huge amount of people, the vast majority. We will
:23:59. > :24:04.do our best to keep peace in our country, stability for the whole
:24:05. > :24:09.world. Together with the European Union and the UK. I want to thank
:24:10. > :24:14.the UK for the strong support of my country. I promise we will do my
:24:15. > :24:46.best. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:47. > :24:51.Looks as though the weekend is offering the prospect of quite a bit
:24:52. > :24:58.of dry weather across the British Isles. The northern part of Scotland
:24:59. > :25:00.will see some pretty heavy showers and longer spells of rain in just a