:00:00. > :00:15.That is it. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:20.Welcome to HARDtalk. Here by the shores of Lake Como in Italy. Where
:00:21. > :00:26.top politicians, officials and business leaders have been gathering
:00:27. > :00:31.for their annual forum. There are grave dangers to your's security.
:00:32. > :00:36.From the jihadist threat at home and abroad to the instability in
:00:37. > :00:41.Ukraine. My guess today is the outgoing commission president, Jose
:00:42. > :00:47.Manuel Barroso. Does Europe black a unified and automated response to
:00:48. > :00:48.these dangers and is Jose Manuel Barroso leaving a mess behind for
:00:49. > :01:22.his successors? `` Jose Manuel Barroso, welcome to
:01:23. > :01:25.HARDtalk. Thank you very much. I put it to you that the response by
:01:26. > :01:33.European Union to Russia has been pretty half`hearted. I do not think
:01:34. > :01:38.so. I think it is what we should do at this moment. On one side we have
:01:39. > :01:43.to show that we do not agree with Russia and we have made it very
:01:44. > :01:49.clear, not only with sanctions, but we want to use the sanctions not as
:01:50. > :01:56.an end but as a way to bring the Russians to the table and to bring
:01:57. > :02:02.the dialogue forward. We believe a solution should be found on the
:02:03. > :02:07.sovereignty and integrity of Ukraine. Here is the European Union
:02:08. > :02:14.now discussing and wanting to impose a third round of tougher sanctions.
:02:15. > :02:19.But we have also had key European Union leaders like Angela Merkel
:02:20. > :02:22.saying this. It is possible that the sanctions could indeed be
:02:23. > :02:25.implemented, but with the limitation that they could be suspended if the
:02:26. > :02:30.ceasefire process is actually happening. That is exactly what we
:02:31. > :02:35.mean. The sanctions are happening in a way that they can be scaled back.
:02:36. > :02:41.We do not want to keep the sanctions for the sake of sanctions. We want
:02:42. > :02:46.comprehensive settlements of the issue. It is very good news
:02:47. > :02:51.regarding the ceasefire. Let us now make everything to make it work so
:02:52. > :02:58.that we can implement it. That we still need a comprehensive solution,
:02:59. > :03:02.they political solution. We have been working hard trying to address
:03:03. > :03:10.concerns in terms of trade and energy. Our idea is to use the
:03:11. > :03:15.sanctions as a way to come to a political solution for the conflict.
:03:16. > :03:19.Can you just clarify for us when you say the sanctions are meant to
:03:20. > :03:25.extract certain behaviours from President Putin. Just that include
:03:26. > :03:33.giving up Crimea or does it just me and eastern Ukraine? Today we are
:03:34. > :03:40.discussing eastern Ukraine. That is the object of the ceasefire.
:03:41. > :03:47.Regarding Crimea, we have already stated that we will not accept the
:03:48. > :03:50.illegal annexation of Crimea. But these sanctions and whether they are
:03:51. > :03:57.elected or not has got nothing to do with what President Putin does with
:03:58. > :04:01.Crimea? That is in regards to the governments of Europe, not me. They
:04:02. > :04:06.asked me to prepare the sanctions and the European commission made
:04:07. > :04:10.these proposals. It is a decision taken by the governments of Europe,
:04:11. > :04:17.not the European commission. When and how they want to suspend the
:04:18. > :04:21.sanctions. The former Assistant Secretary of State in the US says
:04:22. > :04:23.understanding the Russians and knowing what Putin is like, the
:04:24. > :04:31.chances are he will never leave Crimea. As far as the EU leaders are
:04:32. > :04:39.concerned, Putin has gotten away with annex in Crimea. We have a very
:04:40. > :04:47.principled position of the European countries. We did not accept the
:04:48. > :04:54.annexation. We do not recognise Crimea as part of Russia. We have
:04:55. > :04:59.never recognised Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia as part of the Soviet
:05:00. > :05:06.Union. And now they are independent countries. The fact is this. An
:05:07. > :05:11.American Nato commander`in`chief has said as long as Russia does not go
:05:12. > :05:18.for a full`blown invasion of eastern Ukraine, they can get away with it.
:05:19. > :05:22.I do not believe annex in Crimea is business as usual. Can Crimea
:05:23. > :05:28.conduct business as usual with Crimea in the hands of Moscow? We
:05:29. > :05:34.are not business as usual. But you are talking about lifting the
:05:35. > :05:41.sanctions to do with Crimea. Everything except business as usual
:05:42. > :05:46.with regards to Russia. We have excluded them from the G8. We have
:05:47. > :05:52.suspended many parts of our relationship. So these sanctions,
:05:53. > :05:55.there are those who say that they are working and they have caused
:05:56. > :06:00.problems for Russia. But even if they are hoping, they are not
:06:01. > :06:06.working, because the European Union is going to be limited in how far it
:06:07. > :06:12.can extend these sanctions and gas supplies to the tune of 30% of the
:06:13. > :06:18.EU's needs from Russia. Some countries, like Bulgaria, 100%. You
:06:19. > :06:26.cannot afford to really squeeze them hard. As I have said, sanctions are
:06:27. > :06:32.not an end in themselves. It is a way to have serious negotiations
:06:33. > :06:39.between Russia and Ukraine. So far we have not taken sanctions
:06:40. > :06:45.specifically on the field of energy. We have not suggested them. Some of
:06:46. > :06:53.the measures will have an impact on energy. It may affect drilling
:06:54. > :07:00.capacities, technological capacities. Allowing them to exploit
:07:01. > :07:07.natural resources. We are working on that field. Have you mended fences,
:07:08. > :07:11.diplomatic fences with Russia? There has been a highly publicised,
:07:12. > :07:18.reportedly kept out a conversation you had on the telephone with
:07:19. > :07:26.President Putin when you briefed European union leaders in Brussels.
:07:27. > :07:31.Can you set the record straight? What I have done and should have
:07:32. > :07:40.done is to inform my colleagues of the contacts I have as commission
:07:41. > :07:44.president. I have been keeping frequent contact with President
:07:45. > :07:51.Putin. Also with President Poroshenko of Ukraine. Afterwards
:07:52. > :07:58.there was a leak that was distorting what I said and out of context. The
:07:59. > :08:03.Russian authorities consider the case post closed. You have met
:08:04. > :08:07.President Putin around 20 times. Is he a man that the European Union can
:08:08. > :08:14.do business with? We have to do business with them. What is
:08:15. > :08:22.important for us are the facts. The facts are not good. Russia is not
:08:23. > :08:28.respecting international law. They are interventions of Russian troops
:08:29. > :08:34.in Ukraine territory, a sovereign country. President Putin is the
:08:35. > :08:41.president of Russia at the same time. We have to deal with him. I
:08:42. > :08:46.still hope there is a margin for a political negotiated solution. I
:08:47. > :08:49.have been very clear in expressing to him to the high costs for Russia
:08:50. > :08:59.in terms of the relationship with Ukraine if there is not a change.
:09:00. > :09:06.What is the call? One has said that Putin wants a friendly government in
:09:07. > :09:15.eastern Ukraine. He does not want it to be incorporated into Russia. I do
:09:16. > :09:21.not want to make speculation as to the endgame of President Putin. Our
:09:22. > :09:30.endgame is respect of the sovereignty of Ukraine. Ukraine is a
:09:31. > :09:33.country in the United Nations. They can make agreements with whoever
:09:34. > :09:38.they want and they have a right to live in peace. Everything we want
:09:39. > :09:44.from Russia is for them to expect the sovereignty of Ukraine. I will
:09:45. > :09:50.not engage in speculation of scenarios or comments. We are
:09:51. > :09:56.working very hard with our government in Europe to try and
:09:57. > :10:01.achieve that political agreement. I believe it would be a mistake for
:10:02. > :10:11.Ukraine if we do not have it. They will be consequences. Nobody is
:10:12. > :10:13.interested in a new Cold War. It is in the interests of nobody. I hope
:10:14. > :10:19.the Russian leadership has understood that. You have been
:10:20. > :10:23.discussing Ukraine and all the other threats to security at the moment.
:10:24. > :10:32.If you look at what is happening in the Middle East, Ethiopia, Iraq,
:10:33. > :10:39.Syria, the rise of Islamic State, what is the greatest threat to
:10:40. > :10:48.Europe? It is thought around 2000 of these jihadist fighters are
:10:49. > :10:55.European. Another reason for solving the conflict with Russia. I have
:10:56. > :11:01.said this to President Putin. He has united all of us against this threat
:11:02. > :11:08.of extremism and fundamentalism coming from some parts of the
:11:09. > :11:17.Islamic world. What did he say to you? I will not go into detail about
:11:18. > :11:23.what he said. My position was we should work together with all the
:11:24. > :11:30.countries of the world against this very serious threat. That is, a
:11:31. > :11:32.terrorist state or terrorists who want to establish themselves as a
:11:33. > :11:39.state. It is a threat of a new nature. It is very serious and poses
:11:40. > :11:46.a problem to the security of Europe. Do you think European
:11:47. > :11:52.governments have a clear strategy to stop these jihadist fighters coming
:11:53. > :11:56.back into Europe? They had a brief stopover in Turkey and the next
:11:57. > :12:04.thing you know, they are in Europe. It is a relatively new problem.
:12:05. > :12:10.These jihadist fighters that have European citizenship. We have
:12:11. > :12:14.proposed a kind of network of tracking the activity of this kind
:12:15. > :12:19.of people. What I can tell you, I just came from a summit of Nato
:12:20. > :12:28.where the European union was invited. I saw this at the top of
:12:29. > :12:30.the agenda of concerns, not only of our American friends, but the
:12:31. > :12:35.European leaders. This is the top priority for Europe. When you look
:12:36. > :12:38.at what is going on in the room some, the president of the European
:12:39. > :12:44.Central bank very clearly saying the growth we had seen in the Eurozone
:12:45. > :12:47.is losing momentum. Even the great German economy is missing its growth
:12:48. > :12:52.targets in the last couple of months. How worried are you? I think
:12:53. > :12:59.we are going to overcome this situation. I remember where we were
:13:00. > :13:07.sometime ago. Everybody was predicting the quick exit. They were
:13:08. > :13:12.predicting the collapse of the row, the disintegration. We have shown
:13:13. > :13:18.how resilient we are. I do not think we are going to fall into recession.
:13:19. > :13:24.I welcome the measures announced by the European Central bank. There is
:13:25. > :13:29.still some monetary policy to support growth in Europe. Plans for
:13:30. > :13:37.some kind of stimulus programme, for reducing interest rates even more.
:13:38. > :13:40.Also the ABS, the programme they have announced. All of these are
:13:41. > :13:47.measures in the right direction. But there is a big debate and has been
:13:48. > :13:51.revived again about these weak economic indicators in the Eurozone
:13:52. > :13:54.saying that Germany emphasises austerity too much. President
:13:55. > :14:00.Francois Hollande sang with have to convince our European partners to
:14:01. > :14:03.make growth a priority. 26 million people out of work across the EU. Do
:14:04. > :14:09.you think that if there are further stimulus measures taken in the
:14:10. > :14:10.Eurozone that is going to set some countries on a collision course with
:14:11. > :14:22.Germany? With Germany's growth, all of the
:14:23. > :14:29.others are as well. The question is, the situation is different
:14:30. > :14:34.across Europe. I think Germany have more, in terms of investment, and it
:14:35. > :14:39.is a way of supporting grows in Europe. In terms of opening the
:14:40. > :14:46.market that remains relatively close `` gross. They have a more expansive
:14:47. > :14:51.monetary policy. They have already changed regularly. You mention the
:14:52. > :14:55.need for countries like Greece, for example, to focus on the kind of
:14:56. > :15:02.policies that the European Union says they have two sticks too. We
:15:03. > :15:08.have seen a big backlash. `` to stick to. I pity you bought your
:15:09. > :15:13.former economic adviser has said. Knows firsthand having worked with
:15:14. > :15:20.you that EU institutions are not democratic enough. The mainstream
:15:21. > :15:26.politicians slash spending on poor schoolchildren. `` he knows
:15:27. > :15:31.firsthand. The European Union is a group of countries, 28 of them, and
:15:32. > :15:35.you cannot expect everybody to think the same along the same lines
:15:36. > :15:42.regarding the response to the crisis. I believe the response that
:15:43. > :15:49.we have been doing was, generally speaking, the right one. It is very
:15:50. > :15:53.easy now to have criticisms, that the people forget where you were.
:15:54. > :15:57.For example, Greece, without the support of the European Union it
:15:58. > :16:00.would be in a more difficult situation. That is the interesting
:16:01. > :16:09.thing to note, that different oddments of Greece, and political
:16:10. > :16:13.forces, they want to remain in Europe. They've done a lot for that
:16:14. > :16:18.purpose. It was important that they did not create a situation. The
:16:19. > :16:21.situation of Greece was created by irresponsible behaviour of the
:16:22. > :16:26.governments of Greece. Do you not accept that there is a question of
:16:27. > :16:30.democratic accountability? We saw in the May elections of the European
:16:31. > :16:40.Parliament, there was the rise, in some countries, of the anti` EU
:16:41. > :16:44.vote. With UKIP, in Great Britain. The French said this was a wake`up
:16:45. > :16:49.call for all of Europe. Of course. We should look at what is not going
:16:50. > :16:56.well. In the European Union and member states. I think many of the
:16:57. > :17:02.causes of this behaviour have to do with national politics. There is
:17:03. > :17:05.disappointment, in many of our countries, it towards the
:17:06. > :17:09.governments and how they have handled the situation. It is a
:17:10. > :17:17.complete mistake to put the blame on the European Union. I know that is
:17:18. > :17:21.easy. People say it is our problem when things go wrong, it is the
:17:22. > :17:27.fault of Brussels. There is the design now of the ever closer union,
:17:28. > :17:31.going now towards the European Union dream. That is not necessarily
:17:32. > :17:34.something voters back. We saw referendums on the proposed EU
:17:35. > :17:38.Constitution at the time being rejected in several countries. Apart
:17:39. > :17:46.from what their own national governments are doing, there is a
:17:47. > :17:51.disaffection that people like Philip LaGrande talk about. And the impact
:17:52. > :17:55.on their lives. There is a problem, and we are working on it. The
:17:56. > :18:00.solution is not to disintegrate Europe. That will be a real
:18:01. > :18:10.mistake. On the contrary. What we need, is a more coherent European
:18:11. > :18:13.Union, more integrated. If there are more mechanisms of legitimacy and
:18:14. > :18:20.accountability, I'm for democracy. I've been elected all my life, since
:18:21. > :18:27.I was 29. I'm for democracy. I'm not a bureaucrat. The question is, and
:18:28. > :18:33.that I don't like, is national politicians putting the blame on
:18:34. > :18:37.Europe of their own... Of things of their own responsibility. If David
:18:38. > :18:41.Cameron was doing that, when he says I am proposing a referendum as to
:18:42. > :18:46.whether Britain stays in the EU or not... ? This is a decision for the
:18:47. > :18:52.British people to take. I respect democracy. Do you agree with the
:18:53. > :18:54.Polish prime minister, due to take over as the president of the
:18:55. > :19:02.European Council, he says no reasonable person can imagine an EU
:19:03. > :19:06.without the UK? I agree. We appreciate the support a lot from
:19:07. > :19:09.the UK, and Europe. It is good Europe. The current development, in
:19:10. > :19:14.terms of security, should lead for all of us to be more united. We are
:19:15. > :19:19.strongly united. Our countries, including Britain, are stronger
:19:20. > :19:22.united. Of course, that's up to the British people to decide. If they
:19:23. > :19:28.want to, or not, to be European Union. You have been the commission
:19:29. > :19:37.president of the ten years. You came in when there was a huge wave of
:19:38. > :19:40.enlargement, expanded from 15 members to 28. Use countries in the
:19:41. > :19:45.former Soviet bloc, Nym. Now, at the end of your tenure. There is a bit
:19:46. > :19:52.of a mess when you look around. The Eurozone crisis was behind us. It
:19:53. > :19:57.has been described as weak and faltering. We see the borders of
:19:58. > :20:00.Europe, admittedly not in the EU, changing for the first time since
:20:01. > :20:09.the Second World War. It looks pretty untidy, doesn't it? It is
:20:10. > :20:14.challenging, but I am excited. We have lived through crisis all the
:20:15. > :20:18.time. Don't forget, the first crisis was the non` ratification of the
:20:19. > :20:23.constitutional treaty. We solved with the Lisbon Treaty. All of the
:20:24. > :20:29.country supported it. But now Britain wants see it, perhaps,
:20:30. > :20:35.looked at and reformed. But anyway. It has probably had its time.
:20:36. > :20:40.Secondly, you mentioned, rightly, that during this time, we have
:20:41. > :20:44.almost doubled our membership from 15 to 28 member states. Is that not
:20:45. > :20:50.the greatest success over? In European history, for the first
:20:51. > :20:53.time, we have almost the entire continent united around the values
:20:54. > :20:58.of peace and democracy. Is that the case, when you have the Hungarian
:20:59. > :21:02.prime minister saying he had admiration for the liberal countries
:21:03. > :21:10.like Russia? There are some issues, regarding the rule in Hungary. And
:21:11. > :21:17.we will address them. But look, the Prime Minister was democratically
:21:18. > :21:23.elected in Hungary. And we will respect the principles of democracy.
:21:24. > :21:30.Nothing to do with Hungary, when it was a totalitarian region. The
:21:31. > :21:35.conclusion is drawn. That is why I disagree with the idea that is now
:21:36. > :21:40.very fashionable, that Europeans are worse now than they were before.
:21:41. > :21:48.It's untrue. Europe is stronger today, stronger than the Americans,
:21:49. > :21:53.Chinese, and the Russians, they look at us because we are becoming a
:21:54. > :21:57.continental power. That is more important. Regarding the financial
:21:58. > :22:01.crisis. I remember when everyone, including many people that we
:22:02. > :22:04.interviewed, were predicting the end of the euro. I'm predicting the
:22:05. > :22:14.collapse of the European Union. Here we are. Still, a lot has to be
:22:15. > :22:17.done. But we have shown resilience. There are integration forces in
:22:18. > :22:21.Europe that are stronger than the forces of fragmentation. Do you
:22:22. > :22:27.believe you've done a good job? I've done my best. I'm not saying
:22:28. > :22:32.everything was perfect. All Bruce Volpi `` all reasonable people would
:22:33. > :22:36.recognise the circumstances keeping 28 country is united, and keeping
:22:37. > :22:42.Europe open and united, regarding trade, that is a good job. That is
:22:43. > :22:47.your political epitaph, at the European commission? Europe is today
:22:48. > :22:55.united and open. It was a huge task to keep it during this crisis and I
:22:56. > :22:59.believe because of that Europe is stronger now. Our countries have
:23:00. > :23:02.been reforming in the sense of becoming more competitive. I'm not
:23:03. > :23:07.saying everything is perfect. But look, compared to other areas of the
:23:08. > :23:15.world, frankly, Europe is one of the most, let's say, distant parts of
:23:16. > :23:19.the world. In terms of quality of life. Not many have the problems we
:23:20. > :23:24.have. You are still a young man, not yet
:23:25. > :23:31.60! There are presidential elections in your native Portugal in 2016.
:23:32. > :23:38.Would you run them? No. Almost now, for 30 years, I haven't had... I've
:23:39. > :23:47.only had a small interruption. I know in politics. I started out as
:23:48. > :23:52.junior minister when I was 29. I have been Foreign Minister and Prime
:23:53. > :24:00.Minister, and now in the European Commission, I at least deserve a
:24:01. > :24:04.pause from politics! Comeback to Lake Como and relax a bit! I will be
:24:05. > :24:08.a free ban from the 1st of November and I am happy with that. Jose
:24:09. > :24:13.Manuel Barroso, thank you very much indeed becoming a HARDtalk. `` a
:24:14. > :24:45.freeman. Thank you. Good morning, if you need a lengthy
:24:46. > :24:49.spell of dry weather to get outdoor jobs done, this is the weekly you. I
:24:50. > :24:54.pressure is in charge, moving and across the UK through tonight, and
:24:55. > :24:58.you will notice we are in the middle of the high pressure `` high
:24:59. > :25:02.pressure. Some light winds here. The temperature drops like stone. Some
:25:03. > :25:03.double figures in towns and city centres, but in rural areas
:25:04. > :25:04.temperatures