:00:10. > :00:18.for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. Top
:00:19. > :00:21.politicians, officials and business leaders have been brainstorming at
:00:22. > :00:29.the annual forum. Top of the discussions are threats to global
:00:30. > :00:35.security. And my guess is that they is the veteran US Senator Republican
:00:36. > :00:41.John McCain. Why does he accused the Obama Administration of dithering in
:00:42. > :00:45.its response to the threat of both Islamic State in the Middle East as
:00:46. > :01:10.well as Russia over its actions in Ukraine? Is he investing too much
:01:11. > :01:16.faith in military solutions to such dangerous? John McCain, welcome to
:01:17. > :01:19.HARDtalk. Thank you. Why do you believe the Obama Administration has
:01:20. > :01:25.been dithering over what to do over the threat of the Islamic State
:01:26. > :01:31.jihadist fighters, known as ISIS. They have not done anything. It was
:01:32. > :01:36.clear for a long time that this organisation was becoming more and
:01:37. > :01:42.more powerful. The president called that junior varsity. Clearly a total
:01:43. > :01:52.misreading of the threat they posed. And of course they now control the
:01:53. > :01:57.largest, most powerful, wealthiest terrorist on Cleeve in history. But
:01:58. > :02:05.do you believe that the Obama Administration is now actually very
:02:06. > :02:09.alive to the threat of the ISIS? They are more alive, but as far as
:02:10. > :02:21.the articulation and the strategy, or even a call has been missing. The
:02:22. > :02:24.president has set our goal is to protect people and protect American
:02:25. > :02:35.troops. That is not a strategy designed to defeat ISIS? John Kerry
:02:36. > :02:39.has just said in the past few days that leaving ISIS in some capacity
:02:40. > :02:43.anywhere would lead a cancer in place that would ultimately come
:02:44. > :02:48.back to haunt the United States. That does not sound like an
:02:49. > :02:51.administration that is complacent. They still have refused to provide
:02:52. > :02:58.the necessary equipment to the Kurds. Who are the ones who can
:02:59. > :03:05.fight ISIS in that respect. They still have not provided assistance
:03:06. > :03:13.to the Iraqis. They still have shamefully refused to give the Free
:03:14. > :03:19.Syrian Army what they need to fight successfully, who are being
:03:20. > :03:24.destroyed as we speak. There are 192,000 people who have been killed
:03:25. > :03:30.in Syria. I hope so. They have said these things before. Let me tell you
:03:31. > :03:36.one story. The President called and Lindsay into his office and said I
:03:37. > :03:43.am going to upgrade Bashar al`Assad and the Free Syrian Army and we are
:03:44. > :03:49.going to win. Because of the chemical weapons. Four days later,
:03:50. > :03:53.he said, I am not into bomb Syria. You were talking about the terrible
:03:54. > :03:58.attack in August last year. A lot of people at the time, including the
:03:59. > :04:03.United Kingdom, who has always been a supporter of the US military,
:04:04. > :04:10.there was a vote in the House of Commons is saying we do not want a
:04:11. > :04:16.military intervention. All along we predicted exactly what was going to
:04:17. > :04:21.happen, beginning with leaving a residual force in Iraq. The
:04:22. > :04:26.President did not want to. When he says he wanted to, he is not telling
:04:27. > :04:29.the truth. All of these things happened because of an absence of
:04:30. > :04:36.American leadership. Sticking with Iraq first of all. Obama has said,
:04:37. > :04:39.why is it everyone is so eager for the United States to use military
:04:40. > :04:45.force after we have just been through a decade of war and at
:04:46. > :04:50.enormous cost to ourselves. Are you perhaps not being a bit rash saying,
:04:51. > :04:57.let us just rush in and intervene militarily? You have to understand
:04:58. > :05:01.and I am afraid you do not buy the nature of the question, we had not
:05:02. > :05:08.won. We completely have the country with a very new countries, with
:05:09. > :05:12.control over the entire country. Then the President of the United
:05:13. > :05:19.States decided we would not leave a residual force behind. You do not
:05:20. > :05:22.like that. But if we had left the residual force behind, we would not
:05:23. > :05:30.have had the events that followed take place. You seem to suggest, you
:05:31. > :05:36.have said ISIS is a military force and must be confronted militarily.
:05:37. > :05:43.How else can you confronted? What example, we know that ISIS have made
:05:44. > :05:48.gains in Iraq in Sunni heartland because the Sunni population has
:05:49. > :05:55.allowed them to make these games. Not because they are a military
:05:56. > :06:01.force. Because the government, because we were not there to have
:06:02. > :06:06.the influence we would have had. They did not like the government.
:06:07. > :06:11.That is not a military issue. If you do not let me finish my sentence,
:06:12. > :06:25.there is not much point in having... It is not just a military
:06:26. > :06:31.failure. So am I. It has to have the military component. Else we will not
:06:32. > :06:37.succeed. If we have the residual force behind, if we are into the
:06:38. > :06:42.Peshmerga, none of this would have happened. But now that the Obama
:06:43. > :06:49.Administration has said it has a clear strategy for Iraq, Senator
:06:50. > :06:54.McCain, it says it wants to work with partners in the region, Saudi
:06:55. > :06:59.Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, so they can actually take
:07:00. > :07:05.the lead, particularly militarily. To try to combat the jihadist 's.
:07:06. > :07:09.They cannot take the lead militarily. On the one country in
:07:10. > :07:12.the world can take the lead militarily to succeed in Iraq, and
:07:13. > :07:18.that is the United States of America. I am all for coalitions. I
:07:19. > :07:24.can tell you, those coalition partners do not trust us. We told
:07:25. > :07:29.them we were going to strike Syria because of chemical weapons and then
:07:30. > :07:33.did not do so. We have said many times that we are going to interact
:07:34. > :07:36.and have not. The United States influence is dramatically reduced,
:07:37. > :07:40.not only in the region but throughout the world. When you see
:07:41. > :07:47.the United States is the only country capable of achieving a
:07:48. > :07:54.defeat of, militarily, of ISIS, what are you advocating? The return of US
:07:55. > :08:04.combat troops on the ground in Iraq? Obviously not. The American people
:08:05. > :08:10.would not support such a thing. The use of air strikes is a strong and
:08:11. > :08:19.steady and very concentrated extracts, we can reverse the
:08:20. > :08:28.momentum. We can defeat ISIS with a reconciled Iraqi armed forces with
:08:29. > :08:34.Kurds and other nations. A concentrated campaign. Not just
:08:35. > :08:40.trying to stop them from taking in Mt. It has to be a concentrated
:08:41. > :08:46.campaign. Plus training, plus equipment to the Peshmerga. Plus
:08:47. > :08:50.reconciliation between the Sunni and Shia and other nations being
:08:51. > :08:53.involved. That does not sound any different from what the Obama
:08:54. > :08:57.strategy is. The deputy national security adviser has said the Obama
:08:58. > :09:03.Administration wants an inclusive new government in Iraq and Haider
:09:04. > :09:06.al`Abadi as the Prime Minister designate. It says it wants to
:09:07. > :09:13.engage partners in the region and take the lead role in the military
:09:14. > :09:19.push. What do you think has been happening for the past three years?
:09:20. > :09:26.Nothing. They have wasted the right thing. We have left behind a
:09:27. > :09:32.stable, secure Iraq. That is the same person that said that. You are
:09:33. > :09:36.leaving behind a ticking time bomb. President Obama said in the summer
:09:37. > :09:43.that he wants $500 million to be used to support moderate, clearly
:09:44. > :09:49.identified elements in the Free Syrian Army and is hoping that
:09:50. > :09:53.Congress will approve that in October. That sounds like he is
:09:54. > :09:56.doing the right thing. Do you think so? 192,000 people have already been
:09:57. > :10:02.killed while we did nothing to help these people. I have been in Syria
:10:03. > :10:07.and I have met them face to face. I can tell you, they are not being
:10:08. > :10:11.supplied with the weapons even now. If weapons are being supplied, the
:10:12. > :10:16.Saudis and the Emirates and others are giving them to them. We were not
:10:17. > :10:22.giving them the eighth that they needed to have a viable effort
:10:23. > :10:30.against Bashar al`Assad. You can dispute that is all you want, I have
:10:31. > :10:36.been on the ground. Now he wants $500 million to do what? He said for
:10:37. > :10:41.counterterrorism. To do what? Explain what he is going to do. She
:10:42. > :10:43.told me and Senator Graham that he was going to upgrade the
:10:44. > :10:51.capabilities of the Free Syrian Army. He never did. There is a view
:10:52. > :10:56.that is being circulated that ISIS poses such a threat not only to the
:10:57. > :11:02.United States, but the countries in the region, that one should work
:11:03. > :11:08.with President Assad in Syria to try and eliminate them and the Syrian
:11:09. > :11:12.Foreign Minister assets to the United States, if you want to do
:11:13. > :11:16.that, we welcome you. That is something which people like the
:11:17. > :11:25.former head of the British army says he thinks Britain should do. What do
:11:26. > :11:31.you think? Fantasy, foolishness to think that we should join forces
:11:32. > :11:37.with this butcher who has slaughtered 192,000 of his own
:11:38. > :11:43.people. Who is a threat, I believe, in many respects, to the region.
:11:44. > :11:50.That would be a betrayal of everything that we have fought for.
:11:51. > :11:53.It would mean the elimination of the Free Syrian Army. The Free Syrian
:11:54. > :11:56.Army can still succeed, although I can tell you, they are in dire
:11:57. > :12:12.straits. Bashar al`Assad, what about Iran?
:12:13. > :12:17.The supreme leader has said that he would be happy to have some kind of
:12:18. > :12:26.cooperation with the US to defeat the ices fighters. And in discussing
:12:27. > :12:31.that, a former naval commander, an American, said that communication
:12:32. > :12:38.and cooperation should be the what would `` watchword when it comes to
:12:39. > :12:41.any of the Kurdish areas. He says in this particular instance, US
:12:42. > :12:45.interests converge with those of Iran. The US State Department has
:12:46. > :12:51.ruled that out. What is your view? My view is that the Iranians are
:12:52. > :12:56.responsible for the bombings of American ships, American embassies.
:12:57. > :13:00.They have continued to supply Bashar al`Assad with arms and equipment and
:13:01. > :13:05.training to slaughter the Free Syria Army. They are continuing in their
:13:06. > :13:10.effort to develop nuclear weapons and they are causing problems
:13:11. > :13:14.throughout the Middle East. The United States of America cannot get
:13:15. > :13:18.in bed with the Iranians and should not and if they do, it would be
:13:19. > :13:26.something that the American people should never stand for. Just to
:13:27. > :13:30.finish on the jihadist threat in the Middle East in particular, just
:13:31. > :13:34.outlined for us very briefly what you think the Obama administration
:13:35. > :13:39.should be doing that it is not doing. It should have done a lot of
:13:40. > :13:44.long time ago and it is disgraceful they did not. All of us predicted
:13:45. > :13:48.the events as they transpired. We predicted exactly what would happen.
:13:49. > :13:53.You need to have reconciliation between Sunni and Shi'ite. You need
:13:54. > :13:58.to arm the Peshmerga directly, not through Baghdad, which will not give
:13:59. > :14:05.them any weapons. You need to have air strikes in Syria and Iraq are
:14:06. > :14:11.not just Iraq. ISIS has obliterated the boundaries between Syria and
:14:12. > :14:13.Iraq. And you need to really equipped and trained the Free Syria
:14:14. > :14:21.Army, which we have not done so far. Looking at Russia, you have
:14:22. > :14:27.also been a very strong advocate of tougher action against Russia, be it
:14:28. > :14:32.from the US, the EU or Nato. Now that there is this ceasefire plan
:14:33. > :14:34.and the hope is that it will hold, that probably is the best
:14:35. > :14:43.face`saving way out of this conflict, isn't it? Vladimir Putin
:14:44. > :14:50.'s ambitions were very well`known to me and to others. He knew that once
:14:51. > :14:55.Viktor Yanukovych left, he had to take Crimea because of Sevastopol.
:14:56. > :14:59.Then he tried the separatists. That did not work. Then he armed the
:15:00. > :15:04.separatists. That did not work. Then he sent in thousands of Russian
:15:05. > :15:08.troops. The fact is that they were slaughtering Ukrainians. There were
:15:09. > :15:13.hundreds killed, thousands in the hospitals. It's terrible. Petro
:15:14. > :15:18.Poroshenko had no choice but to agree to a ceasefire. What will
:15:19. > :15:23.happen? I predicted that it will be another step in Vladimir Putin's
:15:24. > :15:28.strategy to separate eastern Ukraine from Ukraine. And perhaps a land
:15:29. > :15:33.bridge to Crimea. Now, it is a very bad result and again, we would not
:15:34. > :15:38.send weapons to the Ukrainians when they were begging for them. We would
:15:39. > :15:46.not even give them intelligence. Because we did not want to
:15:47. > :15:50."provoke" Vladimir Putin. By showing weakness, we provoked Vladimir
:15:51. > :15:57.Putin. Who do you mean by that? The US? The US, yes. I also met the
:15:58. > :16:02.Europeans but I was not surprised that the Europeans. The Ukrainians
:16:03. > :16:09.begged the US for defensive weapons and we would not even do that full
:16:10. > :16:17.of it was almost comical. They sent MREs. Why we're not surprised at the
:16:18. > :16:23.not taking action? Because they are dependent on Russian energy. It is
:16:24. > :16:28.obvious. And as for the US, it was obvious that we were not going to
:16:29. > :16:32.assist them because we did not want to" provoke" Vladimir Putin. And
:16:33. > :16:37.there is nothing that provokes a Vladimir Putin more than weakness.
:16:38. > :16:41.You have to understand that his ambitions are the restoration of the
:16:42. > :16:46.old Russian Empire. He has never said, as he, that he was eastern
:16:47. > :16:51.Ukraine to be incorporated into Russian territory? What he said just
:16:52. > :17:03.a few days ago was that he could take Kiev in two weeks. What he has
:17:04. > :17:09.said is that he wants ISIL, which is an old phrase. That means `` he
:17:10. > :17:15.wants Novorussia. That means he wants eastern Ukraine, Crimea, all
:17:16. > :17:18.Dover and the Baltic. That is what he wants to see restored. He cannot
:17:19. > :17:21.afford to see a free and democratic and prosperous Ukraine because the
:17:22. > :17:27.Russian people would like to be like Ukraine. There is now this new Nato
:17:28. > :17:32.force, which has been discussed and could be in place by Christmas,
:17:33. > :17:36.where we have permanently rotating troops that can be deployed within a
:17:37. > :17:43.couple of days notice. Will that be enough of a deterrent? It depends on
:17:44. > :17:48.where it is, what the parameters of the rules of engagement are. A lot
:17:49. > :17:52.of things. I think it is good. We should do a lot of other things
:17:53. > :17:59.within restoring missile defence and rotating those people in and out of
:18:00. > :18:10.the Baltics, including stationing warships in the region. There are a
:18:11. > :18:13.whole lot of things we can do. You have to wrap this interview said
:18:14. > :18:18.that the US could be doing so much more militarily. `` throughout this
:18:19. > :18:22.interview. Stronger response in Russia, stronger response in the
:18:23. > :18:26.Middle East. But opinion polls show that the public and politicians in
:18:27. > :18:31.the US are very war weary and that people begin to say that foreign
:18:32. > :18:37.policy begins at home. Do you perhaps not take sufficient note of
:18:38. > :18:40.that? Interestingly, the American people are taking sufficient notice
:18:41. > :18:45.in the last few weeks, especially with these executions, and we have
:18:46. > :18:51.seen American public opinion shift dramatically. They don't want to
:18:52. > :18:54.send American troops and neither do I but they want us to lead and they
:18:55. > :18:59.want us to confront ISIS and they want us to lead in the world and not
:19:00. > :19:04.fall behind as they watch the world deteriorated around them. There has
:19:05. > :19:09.been a dramatic shift in the polls, some 25 points, that they want
:19:10. > :19:13.Americans to lead. They don't believe that President Obama is
:19:14. > :19:19.leading. His approval rating on foreign policy is 36%, the lowest I
:19:20. > :19:21.have ever seen of any president. There is a very live debate in the
:19:22. > :19:28.US about how that leadership, militarily, should manifest itself.
:19:29. > :19:32.And you have said yourself that there is no appetite for ground
:19:33. > :19:37.troops Aviemore. No one that I know of is advocating ground troops.
:19:38. > :19:45.There is a requirement for air controllers. We have 1000 people
:19:46. > :19:48.over there in Iraq. Air controllers, logistics,
:19:49. > :19:52.intelligence. There is certainly the need for those kinds of
:19:53. > :19:56.capabilities. Nobody is arguing for ground troops like the combat
:19:57. > :20:00.missions of before. But we know that we can succeed by doing that. And
:20:01. > :20:04.there has been no American leadership so far, which has caused
:20:05. > :20:11.the situation where we are facing now, where there are no good
:20:12. > :20:15.options. President Obama has himself accepted that intelligence in the
:20:16. > :20:21.Middle East had been lacking, that the ISIL advance had taken everyone
:20:22. > :20:26.by surprise. Is did not surprise me, it did not surprise some of us. We
:20:27. > :20:32.were not surprised. I can show you where we predicted it. OK? Pursuing
:20:33. > :20:38.this idea of how interventionist the US should be, the US Defence
:20:39. > :20:44.Secretary Chuck Hegel, a Republican like you... Not like me! He is a
:20:45. > :20:49.Republican. He is a Vietnam veteran like you. He says he is adamant that
:20:50. > :20:55.force should only be used only for clear objectives with clear exit
:20:56. > :20:58.strategies. He has gone even further, saying he regretted his
:20:59. > :21:04.vote for the war in Iraq in 2000 and two. And on the other hand, you have
:21:05. > :21:08.a Democrat like Hillary Clinton when she was Secretary of State saying
:21:09. > :21:13.that she feels crises have been made worse by the US absence. There is
:21:14. > :21:18.this debate. It does not necessarily split on partisan lines. Views such
:21:19. > :21:24.as those of Chuck Hegel should be considered? Chuck Hegel, in case you
:21:25. > :21:29.missed it last week, said that ISIS was the biggest challenge we have
:21:30. > :21:34.ever faced and that it was a direct threat to the united states of
:21:35. > :21:38.America. I agree with Chuck Hegel. And so therefore, he is arguing
:21:39. > :21:46.strenuously for the things I have been arguing for four years. And in
:21:47. > :21:50.light of our knowledge that these events were happening and that we
:21:51. > :21:56.would be facing the situation we are facing today unless we acted
:21:57. > :21:59.earlier. We did not and now we have this very difficult situation. Chuck
:22:00. > :22:05.Hegel suddenly called it the greatest threat he has ever seen.
:22:06. > :22:09.Politicians like Barack Obama have to accept that the Iraq War cost the
:22:10. > :22:14.US $240 million per day at its height. Over 4000 American
:22:15. > :22:21.servicemen and women killed and thousands more maimed and injured.
:22:22. > :22:24.And so, as President Obama says, you have to consider what kind of
:22:25. > :22:29.strategy you are going to have, make sure there is a clear exit strategy.
:22:30. > :22:33.We would not be in the situation we are in today if President Obama had
:22:34. > :22:38.left the residual force behind, which we could have and which he
:22:39. > :22:44.wanted to, despite bragging that the war was over and that the tide was
:22:45. > :22:49.receding, both of which were false statements. We have the mid`term
:22:50. > :22:54.elections. Republicans only need six seats to win control of the Senate.
:22:55. > :22:59.If they do that, the Republicans could set the agenda for the final
:23:00. > :23:05.two years of the Obama White House. Do you think they are going to do
:23:06. > :23:10.that? If so, do you think we will see any major changes on foreign
:23:11. > :23:19.policy? If we gain control of both houses, I am confident that we will
:23:20. > :23:26.act in a way that forces the US to restore a lot of its capabilities,
:23:27. > :23:36.that we will force policies that are far more internationalist in
:23:37. > :23:40.nature, and we will increase our defence spending significantly,
:23:41. > :23:46.which is much needed now, and many of us want to sit down and work with
:23:47. > :23:52.the president. I tried many times in the past but when he told Senator
:23:53. > :23:57.Graham and I bet he was going to strike Syria, upgrade the Free Syria
:23:58. > :24:01.Army, upgrade `` downgrade Bashar al`Assad, and then four days later,
:24:02. > :24:06.reversed that decision without telling anybody, we lost a lot of
:24:07. > :24:11.confidence in him because he did not tell us the truth. Senator John
:24:12. > :24:36.McCain, thank you for being on the programme. Thank you.
:24:37. > :24:41.Compared with last night, there is a greater chance this morning of some
:24:42. > :24:42.mist and