:00:00. > :00:00.in fossil fuel to reinvest in clean energy. Now, it is time for
:00:00. > :00:13.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. In a Middle
:00:14. > :00:15.East convulsed with violence, sectarianism and extremism, the
:00:16. > :00:22.slow`motion collapse of Libya as a functioning state has received
:00:23. > :00:26.relatively little attention. That must surely change. Libya is a major
:00:27. > :00:28.oil producer and its internal divisions are currently being
:00:29. > :00:34.deepened by the meddling of regional powers intent on expanding their
:00:35. > :00:43.influence. HARDtalk speaks to Libya's UN ambassador Ibrahim
:00:44. > :01:12.Dabbashi. Who or what can save Libya?
:01:13. > :01:18.Ambassador Ibrahim Dabbashi, at UN headquarters in New York on the
:01:19. > :01:25.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Would it be fair to say that right
:01:26. > :01:36.now, you represent a Libyan government which has lost its
:01:37. > :01:39.ability to govern inside Libya? I am representing the legitimate Libyan
:01:40. > :01:45.government, certainly the Libyan authorities, but I don't agree that
:01:46. > :01:52.it has lost its power inside Libya. You don't agree? You may not agree,
:01:53. > :01:56.but the fact other facts. The government you represent is not in
:01:57. > :02:01.control of the capital, Tripoli, it is not in control of most of
:02:02. > :02:06.Benghazi for the city of Misrata or other cities too. It is writ does
:02:07. > :02:16.not run in the most important cities in the country. It is a fact that it
:02:17. > :02:21.is not controlling Tripoli, but most of the country is under its control.
:02:22. > :02:25.Where there is fighting it is very difficult to say who is in control,
:02:26. > :02:32.but all of the services are still going on. Put it this way. You could
:02:33. > :02:36.not return to your own country right now, and fly into the international
:02:37. > :02:40.airport, because it is under the control of the rebels, or whatever
:02:41. > :02:44.we call them, as well. They have said if you did try to return, they
:02:45. > :02:47.would arrest you as a traitor. I come back to the point, you sit
:02:48. > :02:56.there in New York in a very awkward situation. If I go back to the
:02:57. > :03:03.airport which is under the control of the militia, certainly there
:03:04. > :03:07.might be some danger on my life, but there are other airports that are
:03:08. > :03:18.still under the control of the government, so I can go there, and I
:03:19. > :03:22.can also come through the... It seems that you and other
:03:23. > :03:26.representatives of the government have massively underestimated the
:03:27. > :03:31.challenge posed by Islamist militias, because I look back at
:03:32. > :03:38.what you said in June, you said " the country is as united today as it
:03:39. > :03:43.was in the 2011 revolution. " a few months later, in late August, you
:03:44. > :03:52.said " Libya is now close to a full`blown civil war" . How come you
:03:53. > :04:01.got it so wrong? Let me say, there is a difference between the Libyan
:04:02. > :04:13.people as a whole, which practically constitutes the majority, which is
:04:14. > :04:18.more than 80%, and those who are actively militant, which is less
:04:19. > :04:24.than 20%. If we look at them unity of them Libyan people as a whole,
:04:25. > :04:29.certainly the vivid, unity is there. On the 5th of July, when for the
:04:30. > :04:37.first time a militia has attacked another militia, the situation has
:04:38. > :04:55.completely changed, and we are certainly on the verge of a civil
:04:56. > :05:02.war, because now it is no longer a separate security incident. Now it
:05:03. > :05:08.is a full`scale war between factions. A full`scale war. If it is
:05:09. > :05:12.indeed a full`scale war, as you have just said, would you acknowledge
:05:13. > :05:15.that the government over the last three years, and of course it has
:05:16. > :05:19.not been a very stable government, but those governing Libya in the
:05:20. > :05:26.period after the removal of Muammar Gaddafi, have made some terrible
:05:27. > :05:32.mistakes? People like you, who wield authority and Libya, people like
:05:33. > :05:35.yourself, who was actually an official in the Kadhafi regime, then
:05:36. > :05:42.changed sides and appeared to become a beacon of hope for the new Libya
:05:43. > :05:48.`` who won the Kadhafi regime. You let down the people of your country,
:05:49. > :05:53.and that is in a way why the Islamist militias appear to have got
:05:54. > :05:55.so much traction, because there is so much dissatisfaction with the
:05:56. > :06:03.leadership Libya has been given in the last few years. Certainly, I am
:06:04. > :06:10.sure that it is a combination of mistakes by the different
:06:11. > :06:16.governments since the fall of Gaddafi. No one denies that, that is
:06:17. > :06:24.because of the incompetence of the different ministers, and all those
:06:25. > :06:28.officials who have power in Libya. I have nothing to do with that. I am a
:06:29. > :06:33.diplomat, I have worked as a diplomat, and I am still working as
:06:34. > :06:43.a diplomat, so I have nothing to do with decisions being made at the
:06:44. > :06:47.level of government. We lack a real leadership to fill the vacuum that
:06:48. > :06:52.has been created since the fall of the regime. No Libyan denies that.
:06:53. > :07:00.Isn't a problem that you don't have that leadership? You have a
:07:01. > :07:05.government now, that has no ability to govern in Tripoli, the capital,
:07:06. > :07:09.so it has led to the remote eastern city of Tobruk, and it sits there
:07:10. > :07:14.with the House of Representatives that sits there with a house of just
:07:15. > :07:18.15 or 16% of the electorate in the summer elections, which most people
:07:19. > :07:27.did not vote for, and which many people see as illegitimate. That is
:07:28. > :07:34.a bit of a problem. I think on the populist level, no one questions the
:07:35. > :07:39.legitimacy of the government and the House of Representatives. With
:07:40. > :07:42.respect, of course they do. You know there is a rival Parliament sitting
:07:43. > :07:47.in Tripoli, so many people question the legitimacy of your Parliament.
:07:48. > :07:52.These are those who lost the elections. They were in power, they
:07:53. > :07:57.were controlling the militias in the past, and they want to continue to
:07:58. > :08:00.control it in the future, since they did not get enough seats to control
:08:01. > :08:08.the Parliament. Now they are creating problems, and they are
:08:09. > :08:13.trying to recreate another National Assembly and another government, and
:08:14. > :08:17.they are practically trying to impede the political process and the
:08:18. > :08:27.democratic process in Libya. These are only the factions who lost the
:08:28. > :08:30.elections. The factions who lost the elections, you say they are very
:08:31. > :08:35.well armed, the militias who currently control Tripoli and
:08:36. > :08:41.appeared to back the rival Parliament in Tripoli, they seem to
:08:42. > :08:46.outgun the Libyan army. I wonder how you propose to seek authority
:08:47. > :08:51.restored on the half of the Central government, when you're armed forces
:08:52. > :09:01.are consistently been beaten on the ground by the militias, the
:09:02. > :09:06.so`called Libyan militias. One of the mistakes was that the Libyan
:09:07. > :09:13.militias were paid more than the national army, and they are well
:09:14. > :09:22.armed and they are harmed... The national army has been neglected in
:09:23. > :09:30.terms of armament and equipment. The whole security responsibility given
:09:31. > :09:32.to these militias, and that is a mistake that the different
:09:33. > :09:39.governments in the past made. To come back and create an army is not
:09:40. > :09:47.an easy task for the government. It will take some time. Now they have
:09:48. > :09:52.started to mobilise all units of the army, they are trying to bring back
:09:53. > :09:59.the offices of the army. It will take some time, and the community
:10:00. > :10:04.needs to have a strong army that can deal with all these militias. That
:10:05. > :10:09.is in case they don't agree to disarm and obey the government. The
:10:10. > :10:14.trouble is, you talk about the militias and their lack of
:10:15. > :10:21.legitimacy on the other side, but it seems the government is now backing
:10:22. > :10:25.its own militia, that of a man who used to be a general in the Armed
:10:26. > :10:30.Forces and is now a private operator, and appears to be the only
:10:31. > :10:49.man who was offering assistance to Islamist militias. No, ago Khalifa
:10:50. > :10:57.Haftar try to take control `` awhile ago, Khalifa Haftar try to take
:10:58. > :11:03.control in Benghazi. Khalifa Haftar took the arms and try to organise
:11:04. > :11:10.some units to fire for themselves. Now that is no longer the case.
:11:11. > :11:15.Khalifa Haftar now has to step back and allow the new chief of staff to
:11:16. > :11:24.do his job. Certainly, if Khalifa Haftar... If I may say so, Khalifa
:11:25. > :11:28.Haftar's former number two is now the head of the armed forces. It
:11:29. > :11:34.seems the government's relationship with Khalifa Haftar has been cut.
:11:35. > :11:42.Officially, he has no official post, as I know for the moment. But
:11:43. > :11:52.if he wants to assist in any way as a person, he can. That may be the
:11:53. > :11:59.case officially, but reality and what is officially the case can be
:12:00. > :12:02.different things. That leads to the next thing I want to ask you about,
:12:03. > :12:07.and that is the control of the national oil corporation. Who is in
:12:08. > :12:17.charge of it right now? The rest of the world cares about that. It is in
:12:18. > :12:26.the hands of the professionals who are working in the oilfield. The
:12:27. > :12:31.revenue of the oil is still going to the central bank, and it is under
:12:32. > :12:37.control of the government. Have you seen the YouTube video which shows a
:12:38. > :12:41.rival oil minister in Tripoli saying that he has taken over control on
:12:42. > :12:51.behalf of the general national congress and the rebel militias? No,
:12:52. > :12:55.that is only 40 show. Practically, the money is still coming to the
:12:56. > :13:05.central bank which is under the control of the government `` for the
:13:06. > :13:09.show. This entire line you are giving me about things being under
:13:10. > :13:13.control seems very thin, if we remember that the central bank
:13:14. > :13:18.itself, the government into Brooke, just fired the chief of the Central
:13:19. > :13:27.bank because he refused to transfer tens of millions of dollars to the
:13:28. > :13:34.new Parliament `` Tobruk. So, everything is in utter chaos. There
:13:35. > :13:42.might be some confusion, but anyway, the central bank as an institution,
:13:43. > :13:48.the national oil company, I don't know what its name is exactly, but
:13:49. > :13:54.it is still working normally. They are working as usual, business as
:13:55. > :14:00.usual, nothing has changed. Everything is going smoothly on a
:14:01. > :14:04.professional level. Whatever happens at the top, practically it doesn't
:14:05. > :14:08.matter that much. Just a final point, I don't know whether you saw
:14:09. > :14:15.the statement from the government into Brooke in mid`September, a few
:14:16. > :14:19.days ago, `` in Tobruk, they said they had lost control of ministries
:14:20. > :14:28.and state organisations. Did you see that one?
:14:29. > :14:33.They lost control of the government institutions in Tripoli, that's
:14:34. > :14:40.right. The government has left the capital for quite sometime and
:14:41. > :14:43.now... However, those workers or the civil servants were there still for
:14:44. > :14:49.some time. Some of them are capable to go back to their offices and they
:14:50. > :14:55.are working. But most of them, many of them, are afraid. They are under
:14:56. > :14:59.threat. They are afraid that they may be obliged to do the work
:15:00. > :15:05.against the will of the government, so they stay at home. In all
:15:06. > :15:08.honesty, do you think the only hope for the government that you
:15:09. > :15:13.represent, which we should always remember right now isn't in Tripoli
:15:14. > :15:18.but is 1500 kilometres away in Tom Brook, do you think the only hope
:15:19. > :15:25.for that government is outside military intervention? `` Tobruk. I
:15:26. > :15:31.think military intervention isn't accepted at any level and I think
:15:32. > :15:36.even the government has no intention to ask for an external intervention
:15:37. > :15:42.or foreign intervention in Libya. Really? Right at some stage the
:15:43. > :15:51.government might ask for assistance somehow, even militarily, in case it
:15:52. > :15:57.feels that its armed forces aren't capable of doing the job, especially
:15:58. > :16:02.in terms of the air force. I'm a little confused. You say absolutely
:16:03. > :16:07.do one in Libya once outside intervention and yet the United
:16:08. > :16:17.States appeared to confirm that at the end of August Egyptian and UAE
:16:18. > :16:27.military is had been involved in air attacks on militia positions in
:16:28. > :16:39.Tripoli? `` militaries. I think the United States denied that. The next
:16:40. > :16:47.day it was denied. No one is sure about any intervention from Egypt or
:16:48. > :16:57.the Emirates. The Libyan air force also confirmed that it was their
:16:58. > :17:02.work. IAC. `` I see. You have talked about and Arab intervention force
:17:03. > :17:05.disarming all nonstate armed groups and again I'm struggling to square
:17:06. > :17:15.that with you telling me that no one in Libya wants any outside
:17:16. > :17:24.intervention. I said that the only way for ending this conflict is to
:17:25. > :17:28.have these militias accept disarming themselves and give a chance to the
:17:29. > :17:32.Libyan national army and the police force to take the control of the
:17:33. > :17:38.security in Libya and its borders. Or they have to accept a neutral
:17:39. > :17:44.force from the Arab or Muslim countries, to come and controlled
:17:45. > :17:52.the disarming of these militias, to make sure that their arms are not
:17:53. > :17:59.going to any other militia. It is conditional to the acceptance by the
:18:00. > :18:04.different militias in Libya. I wonder... You are a diplomat who
:18:05. > :18:09.know the convocations of the Middle East. I'm wondering what realistic
:18:10. > :18:14.chance you think any sort of united Arab intervention might have in
:18:15. > :18:27.Libya, when you yourself have accused Qatar and sedan of aiding
:18:28. > :18:32.the militias in Tripoli? `` Sudan. I think it is clear for the Libyan
:18:33. > :18:38.people now that there is support coming from `` coming for these
:18:39. > :18:42.militias from the outside. But in any case if you need the support of
:18:43. > :18:46.any Arab country or friendly country it is for the government to decide
:18:47. > :18:53.about that and it has to be approved by the house of representatives.
:18:54. > :18:57.Hang on, Ambassador, given you have categorically denied that your side
:18:58. > :19:04.got any help from Egypt and the UAE, I can't let you get away with
:19:05. > :19:10.it using Qatar and Saddam of arming the militias unless you have
:19:11. > :19:15.evidence. `` Sudan. What is your specific evidence that Qatar is
:19:16. > :19:23.aiding the Islamist militias? There are many reports by the Libyan
:19:24. > :19:32.people, that many air force Qatari air planes are arriving to the
:19:33. > :19:37.airport and also... Anyway, I never mentioned Qatar and Sudan. But since
:19:38. > :19:48.you mention that, I have no problem in talking about that. But the
:19:49. > :19:57.Sudanese cargo plane was arriving to our city with a cargo of arms...
:19:58. > :20:01.Ambassador, diplomacy is a complicated thing but I'm sure you
:20:02. > :20:07.know that both Qatar and Sudan have absolutely denied those allegations.
:20:08. > :20:15.Before we end, I want to ask you a wider question. The United States
:20:16. > :20:22.led a coalition of Western forces, which was involved in the removal,
:20:23. > :20:26.military intervention and removal, of colonel Gaddafi. I wonder if your
:20:27. > :20:30.message to the world now is that unless there is a new Western focus
:20:31. > :20:41.on what's happening in Libya today, then Libya could become very rapidly
:20:42. > :20:47.a very oil`rich failed state? I think we need support from the
:20:48. > :20:54.international community, to let the government have the control of all
:20:55. > :20:58.the Libyan territories. There is the possibility that Libya becomes a
:20:59. > :21:06.failed state and there's the possibility Libya will be
:21:07. > :21:10.controlled, could be controlled, by the terrorists if we don't take the
:21:11. > :21:20.necessary steps to reinforce the Libyan army and certainly combat
:21:21. > :21:26.effectively those who are in Benghazi and elsewhere. They are
:21:27. > :21:31.completely against the authority of the Libyan state. You call the
:21:32. > :21:36.people in charge of Tripoli today terrorists. The UN has just issued a
:21:37. > :21:39.statement in the last few hours, asking the people you represent,
:21:40. > :21:43.your government, to open up a dialogue and have talks with those
:21:44. > :21:46.people in Tripoli. But it seems talks are unlikely to get anywhere
:21:47. > :21:56.if you believe they are nothing but" terrorists" . I never said they
:21:57. > :22:01.are terrorists but they are out of law and they are aligned with
:22:02. > :22:05.terrorists. That's what I said. Certainly the house of
:22:06. > :22:13.representatives mentioned that they are terrorists on the ground, that
:22:14. > :22:21.they are allied with the terrorists in Benghazi. So, I think there's
:22:22. > :22:27.always a good possibility that we could find a way out of this mess
:22:28. > :22:34.and out of this tragic war among the brothers. We have watched with great
:22:35. > :22:39.deal of alarm how Syria and Iraq have spiralled downwards to
:22:40. > :22:45.situations of terrible violence and chaos. Is it not the truth that it
:22:46. > :22:56.is now too late to prevent the same thing happening in Libya? I think it
:22:57. > :23:01.not too late. Still there is considerable support for the Libyan
:23:02. > :23:07.legitimate authorities and I think there is a unanimous international
:23:08. > :23:15.support to the legitimate Libyan authorities. So, I think it is very
:23:16. > :23:21.easy to take the necessary steps to control these terrorist groups and
:23:22. > :23:29.also to bring those who are allied with them to reason and try to find
:23:30. > :23:33.a solution to the building problems. To be very clear and briefly, you
:23:34. > :23:37.are diplomat and you say the only way out of this is through
:23:38. > :23:49.diplomacy. There is no armed military solution? It should be by
:23:50. > :23:55.dialogue. The peaceful solution is the one which is desired by all the
:23:56. > :24:01.Libyan people and it is usually the most effective. War brings war.
:24:02. > :24:07.Clashes brings clashes. Hatred will bring more hatred. So, hopefully all
:24:08. > :24:18.the Libyans will come back to reason and they will sit together and they
:24:19. > :24:21.will bring a plan forward. OK, Ambassador Ibrahim Dabbashi, thank
:24:22. > :24:44.you for joining me from New York City. Thank you very much.
:24:45. > :24:48.After the relatively quiet September weather so far, things are staying
:24:49. > :24:51.reasonably settled through the course of this week, although there
:24:52. > :24:54.will be some rain on the cards, thanks to this weather front you can
:24:55. > :25:00.see, pushing slowly south through the overnight period and on into
:25:01. > :25:03.Tuesday. It will bring some bursts of rain across parts of Northern
:25:04. > :25:05.Ireland and northern England during the course of