:00:00. > :00:00.prompted the Tory MP Brooks Newmark to resign. Now on BBC News,
:00:00. > :00:12.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. My guest today
:00:13. > :00:15.audiences in the world's greatest audiences in the world's greatest
:00:16. > :00:21.concert halls and opera houses for decades. Jessye Norman is
:00:22. > :00:25.acknowledged as one of the greatest singers of her generation. She has
:00:26. > :00:30.now written a reflective memoir. Stand up straight and sing, about
:00:31. > :00:38.her life in music. She was born in America's segregated South, with a
:00:39. > :00:40.talent that transcended barriers. But has her success helped to tear
:00:41. > :01:09.those barriers down. Jessye Norman, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:10. > :01:13.Thank you very much, delighted to be here. The briefest way of putting it
:01:14. > :01:16.is that yours is a life that began in the segregated South of the US
:01:17. > :01:19.during a time of extraordinary troubles, and took you all the way
:01:20. > :01:26.to the most gilded opera houses in the world. Through all of that
:01:27. > :01:30.journey, did you feel that you were defying the odds? Certainly defying
:01:31. > :01:37.the odds, but also very fortunate, and very lucky in so many ways. I
:01:38. > :01:40.know that from hearing educators talk about arts and education that
:01:41. > :01:45.arts education was a part of my public school education in the US.
:01:46. > :01:53.So, we had choirs and bands and art clubs and the rest of it, and it was
:01:54. > :01:56.available for every child. You, after all, were an African`American
:01:57. > :01:59.child, in a small town in Georgia, Augusta, Georgia, and the prevailing
:02:00. > :02:02.feeling in the South, which was ruled by white people, was that
:02:03. > :02:10.black people should know their place. And their place, frankly, was
:02:11. > :02:19.not in the concert hall or the Opera House. Yes, but that was not my
:02:20. > :02:24.thought, or the thought of my parents, or the other people who
:02:25. > :02:31.were nurturing me. Whether they were my family members or people from my
:02:32. > :02:34.community or my church. When I was able to see the wonderful film of
:02:35. > :02:37.Marian Anderson about aged ten or 11, the woman who was called the
:02:38. > :02:39.Lady from Philadelphia, standing there in all of Her Majesty and her
:02:40. > :02:47.grace, African`American, looking very much like me. A woman who had
:02:48. > :02:50.the most marvellous voice but was not allowed to perform in them best
:02:51. > :02:57.opera houses. Not until 1955, you are right. But she was performing
:02:58. > :03:01.everywhere else, she was performing for the monarchs of Europe. And
:03:02. > :03:05.Victoria, not just listening to her Victoria, not just listening to her
:03:06. > :03:21.sing, but also understanding her as a person. That was something that
:03:22. > :03:26.was very inspirational to me. You are also quite a political person.
:03:27. > :03:34.You were a member of the NAACP, you went on marches, you were involved
:03:35. > :03:38.in sit`ins. Absolutely. So in a way it is odd that you ended up going
:03:39. > :03:40.into an art form that is perhaps the least contemporary, the least
:03:41. > :03:43.contemporary to what was unfolding in America at the time. Precisely.
:03:44. > :03:46.It is important to understand that arts education, having a music
:03:47. > :03:49.teacher, at age five or six, that tells you about the great violinists
:03:50. > :04:00.of the world, the great orchestras of the world, and plays this music
:04:01. > :04:02.for you to hear. This gives you space to dream, whereas you might,
:04:03. > :04:06.as I certainly was, living in the segregated South where you were
:04:07. > :04:15.certainly living in an oppressive situation, the oppression was not in
:04:16. > :04:16.my mind. It was not in my spirit. It was something that was happening
:04:17. > :04:21.outside me. And my parents were involved in the civil rights
:04:22. > :04:22.movement, as was my older brother, who was the
:04:23. > :04:36.chapter of the NAACP, while he was in college in Augusta, Georgia. But
:04:37. > :04:39.my thoughts about what my life could be were certainly not limited to the
:04:40. > :04:43.circumstances of my life. I wonder, when you went into those restaurants
:04:44. > :04:46.which were segregated, and you and your friends made a point of sitting
:04:47. > :04:49.in places you shouldn't be sitting, did you ever come close to hating
:04:50. > :04:59.white people and the white power that oppressed you? No, because I am
:05:00. > :05:02.still, even at this ripe age, I am still that five`year`old in the
:05:03. > :05:05.train station with my parents, on my way from Augusta to Philadelphia, to
:05:06. > :05:08.visit relatives and friends, and going over to the white section of
:05:09. > :05:22.the train station sitting area, and saying to my mother, nothing happens
:05:23. > :05:33.when I sit over here. I always thought segregation was stupid and
:05:34. > :05:39.foolish and useless. And even at the age five I thought that. And a few
:05:40. > :05:43.years later, after age five, I had the same idea about it. A final
:05:44. > :05:46.point about this youth you had, we are talking about the 50s and 60s,
:05:47. > :05:58.There was an evolution from jazz to Blues to rock 'n' roll. Of course.
:05:59. > :06:01.You were a very musical young woman. Were you in a way drawn to them,
:06:02. > :06:05.because then you could have expressed your politics much more
:06:06. > :06:08.easily than it would in opera? I'm not sure that is true, because I
:06:09. > :06:13.think one has to understand one's own gifts. And I understood from
:06:14. > :06:15.listening to my contemporaries, and listening to people who were
:06:16. > :06:18.professional in these genres, that I did not possess the gospel singing
:06:19. > :06:27.kind of voice, and I wasn't particularly interested in singing
:06:28. > :06:31.pop music. The songs I sang I learned at school or church, I
:06:32. > :06:35.learned sitting next to my mother at the piano in our house. So, this
:06:36. > :06:39.wasn't pop music that I was learning. Therefore, that is not
:06:40. > :06:41.what I was singing. In another circumstance, perhaps with different
:06:42. > :06:45.parents or in a different situation, I might have been drawn to a
:06:46. > :06:48.different genre of music, but as it was I spent my Saturday afternoons
:06:49. > :06:51.listening to the Metropolitan Opera on the radio on Saturday, not having
:06:52. > :06:54.any idea that it was something that I should not understand or that it
:06:55. > :07:10.was something that was too complicated for me to understand. It
:07:11. > :07:12.wasn't hard at all. There was this wonderful announcer, Milton Cross,
:07:13. > :07:15.who told you what everything looked like, what everyone was wearing,
:07:16. > :07:19.that Joan Sutherland was very tall and wearing a beautiful blonde wig.
:07:20. > :07:22.He told us what was happening in the story, so as far as I was concerned,
:07:23. > :07:28.opera was simply grown`up versions of children's stories. When you get
:07:29. > :07:39.you going to the training, and you went to the... Howard University in
:07:40. > :07:43.Washington, DC. The conservatory, and then Michigan. To learn the
:07:44. > :07:50.technicalities of singing opera is quite something. But I just wonder
:07:51. > :07:58.whether you, looking back on it, can you say that you always had this
:07:59. > :08:05.extraordinary range? This amazing voice, or was it trained into you?
:08:06. > :08:08.It is certainly, I think, a combination of things. As a young
:08:09. > :08:12.child I could always sing very loudly, I remember being about seven
:08:13. > :08:15.years old and invited by my second grade teacher to sing for the weekly
:08:16. > :08:21.gathering of all of the 1200 students in the school. She said, we
:08:22. > :08:24.will have you singing by yourself, because we won't need to move the
:08:25. > :08:27.microphone up and down. You can sing without the microphone, so the
:08:28. > :08:38.principle could keep the microphone at his height. `` principal. And I
:08:39. > :08:43.took it as a compliment. I was not at all embarrassed, or thought that
:08:44. > :08:46.I sang too loudly. So I always had a voice of a certain strength and
:08:47. > :08:50.volume, and that was something I could do very easily. You also have
:08:51. > :08:52.the range. You can go from the highest of high, to, I think for
:08:53. > :08:57.many female singers, extraordinarily low. At the same time, as a child in
:08:58. > :09:02.the choir at the school, I sang whatever part was missing. So if we
:09:03. > :09:06.didn't have very strong sopranos, at age seven or eight, then I would
:09:07. > :09:09.sing with the sopranos. There is an age at around ten or 11, where you
:09:10. > :09:19.practically had to bribe the boys to stay in the choir. So we didn't have
:09:20. > :09:28.a lot of tenors. So I would sing with the tenors. Then there came a
:09:29. > :09:31.time, around 13 or 14, when there were truly no boys left in the
:09:32. > :09:37.choir, and I would sing with the basses. So without knowing it, and
:09:38. > :09:40.without thinking about it in that way, I was training my voice to sing
:09:41. > :09:44.in these different registers without really thinking about it. Now is a
:09:45. > :09:51.good chance to give us a little flavour of this extraordinary voice.
:09:52. > :09:57.This is contemporary, but let's hear this voice in full flow. Doing
:09:58. > :10:35.Wagner. How do you manage to get inside the
:10:36. > :10:40.parts and the meaning, in so many different languages? I am able to
:10:41. > :10:44.get inside the parts and their meanings, the nuance of the language
:10:45. > :10:49.of the music, because I don't sing in a language that I do not speak.
:10:50. > :10:55.All of these languages you have become fluent in? Fluent more so in
:10:56. > :10:58.some than others, but I don't sing in a language that I have not
:10:59. > :11:01.studied as a language, because I understand that singers, as I write
:11:02. > :11:11.in my book, we have another level of responsibility. We have words. And
:11:12. > :11:14.those words should be understood. It should be possible for the audience
:11:15. > :11:17.to sit and listen to us singing in Italian or French or German, and
:11:18. > :11:25.without knowing the text, they should be able to gather what is
:11:26. > :11:28.happening in that particular piece. To what extent in a performance like
:11:29. > :11:32.that is it about the physicality of the acting, the performance, as well
:11:33. > :11:43.as the purity and quality of the voice? It is important, all of it is
:11:44. > :11:47.important. One can't just stand there like a bump on a log and sing.
:11:48. > :11:51.That can be very beautiful from some people, but the rest of us need to
:11:52. > :11:55.be able to act as well. That is what engages the audience, when they know
:11:56. > :11:58.that you are is committed to what you are singing, as committed to
:11:59. > :12:01.portraying that character as you are to delivering your gift, your voice.
:12:02. > :12:14.To women, when it comes to opera in particular, do they get judged in a
:12:15. > :12:16.way that men do not? Of course! I have heard countless stories, very
:12:17. > :12:19.recently, about designing address for performance, without having seen
:12:20. > :12:22.the person who is going to sing the performance. Therefore, choosing
:12:23. > :12:25.rather to have someone who is going to fit into the costume, rather than
:12:26. > :12:27.someone who will be able to sing the role. That is something that is so
:12:28. > :12:46.misguided. Do You mean casting directors are
:12:47. > :12:52.prioritising the look and the appearance, rather than the voice?
:12:53. > :13:05.Often. I'm not saying in every case, thankfully, but it happens enough to
:13:06. > :13:08.get in the papers. Talking of the newspapers, there was a furore
:13:09. > :13:10.recently when a young and talented female Irish opera singer was
:13:11. > :13:13.criticised for her performance in Der Rosenkavalier, on the basis of `
:13:14. > :13:17.it was that, and these are quotes from some of the newspapers, she was
:13:18. > :13:21.a chubby bundle of puppy fat. She was stocky, she physically didn't
:13:22. > :13:25.work on the role. What do you mean that she didn't work on the role? Do
:13:26. > :13:28.you mean she didn't look good in a dress? Which could have been
:13:29. > :13:35.designed for her, and could have been made to look good. Anybody can
:13:36. > :13:44.look good in anything. It created a huge storm inside the opera world.
:13:45. > :13:47.That is personal and unpleasant. Yes, I mean, one reaction from Alice
:13:48. > :13:50.Coote, a mezzosoprano of some standing, is that if we start to
:13:51. > :13:53.judge performance on appearance like this it will be the death of opera.
:13:54. > :13:56.She said opera is all about the voice. You are saying something
:13:57. > :14:03.slightly different. I am saying it is about the voice, but it is also
:14:04. > :14:05.about suspending belief. You need to be able to look and listen and
:14:06. > :14:09.understand the portrayal of a character, and not assume that the
:14:10. > :14:17.person that is in that dress has to sort of look like the 16`year`old.
:14:18. > :14:29.They might be singing Salome, or a person of a certain age that might
:14:30. > :14:31.be singing Rosenkavalier. Who has decided that the person singing
:14:32. > :14:33.Rosenkavalier should be wearing a small dress? Except the person
:14:34. > :14:37.designing the costume, without seeing the person who will be
:14:38. > :14:40.wearing a costume. Because I promise you that anybody, it doesn't matter
:14:41. > :14:43.what the shape is, what the size is, can be designed, be given a costume
:14:44. > :14:51.that is designed to flatter that body. And unless designers are
:14:52. > :14:56.willing to do that, then perhaps they should work in other fields.
:14:57. > :14:59.Yes, one of the critics who was criticised for his own criticism of
:15:00. > :15:06.the Irish singer fought back and said this. He said opera is a visual
:15:07. > :15:10.as well as aural experience. It is a form of theatre which is 75% about
:15:11. > :15:14.the voice and 25% about the ability to act well. And who is he to decide
:15:15. > :15:22.that something is 75% voice and 25% something else? Why doesn't he say
:15:23. > :15:26.40`60%? Did the critics infuriate you throughout your career? I wonder
:15:27. > :15:30.how you respond to critics who take a stand on something that you have
:15:31. > :15:33.worked so hard on, that is so much an expression of your personality,
:15:34. > :15:40.and then they feel free to write this sort of stuff? Well they might
:15:41. > :15:46.write it, but darling, I don't read it. I don't need it. I know whether
:15:47. > :15:53.or not I have done on stage what I intended to do that night, that
:15:54. > :15:57.evening, that afternoon. So whatever I am able to do, I am giving all
:15:58. > :16:03.that I am able to do on that particular night. And if it doesn't
:16:04. > :16:06.suit somebody who is sitting there, not having paid for their ticket to
:16:07. > :16:12.be there, and they find it not to their liking, what does it matter?
:16:13. > :16:16.Who are they? They are not my friend, they are not from my family,
:16:17. > :16:23.they are not people who work with me or coach me or have been in any way
:16:24. > :16:28.influential in my life. So why should it matter what that person
:16:29. > :16:31.says? A different aspect of the world that you chose to work in,
:16:32. > :16:35.classical music and opera, is, some would argue, snobbery. A snobbery
:16:36. > :16:41.about the art form being higher than other musical forms. And I don't
:16:42. > :16:45.believe in that. I truly don't believe in that. I say so often, and
:16:46. > :16:48.with such joy, exactly what Duke Ellington said about music years
:16:49. > :17:00.ago, there are only two kinds of music. Good music, and music that
:17:01. > :17:03.isn't. And some of that good music is written by Beethoven, and some of
:17:04. > :17:10.that good music was written by George Gershwin. Let's hear you sing
:17:11. > :17:34.a little bit of George Gershwin. OK. # It's very clear our Love is here
:17:35. > :17:47.to stay. Not for a year, but ever and a day. The radio
:17:48. > :17:50.telephone #. Another beautiful sound. And it brings to my mind
:17:51. > :17:54.something you set a while ago about this mixing of genres. `` something
:17:55. > :17:57.you said. You said pigeonholes are only interesting to pigeons. Yes,
:17:58. > :18:00.precisely. If I push you, if you are really honest, would you say that
:18:01. > :18:06.you actually get more pure pleasure of singing and listening to Gershwin
:18:07. > :18:12.than a lot of the opera you do? I wouldn't be able to say that. Is
:18:13. > :18:26.there anything in the world that is more beautiful than the second duet
:18:27. > :18:32.of Tristan and Isolde? Is there anything more beautiful than Dido
:18:33. > :18:35.and Aeneas? Is there anything more beautiful than Dido's Lament at the
:18:36. > :18:49.end of Henry Purcell's opera, that lasts about an hour? I am going to
:18:50. > :18:55.stop it, because we could probably spend ten minutes. Yes. The point is
:18:56. > :19:00.you have played all those parts over decades, but you do love different
:19:01. > :19:03.genres. Yes. I was wondering if there is a little part of you that,
:19:04. > :19:06.looking at modern music and the creativity that comes out of things
:19:07. > :19:09.like hip`hop, might just be interested in challenging yourself
:19:10. > :19:14.one more time with a different genre? As I have not limited myself
:19:15. > :19:20.to one genre, I have always been interested in all that is going on.
:19:21. > :19:25.I have never tried hip`hop, I have never felt that I was quite, sort
:19:26. > :19:30.of, the hip`hop type. But perhaps working with... But music producers
:19:31. > :19:32.today love mixing genres, and they love sampling and playing with
:19:33. > :19:38.music. If somebody approached you, would you consider it? I would
:19:39. > :19:42.certainly try it, why not? I'm sure I would enjoy it. I have spoken a
:19:43. > :19:45.lot to, as I call, the kids who sing the hip`hop music, because I know
:19:46. > :19:49.that they need to express themselves, and there are things
:19:50. > :19:52.that they need to say. They need to make social and political
:19:53. > :19:58.statements, and they are able to do this through their music. You have
:19:59. > :20:01.sung at inaugurations, you know, from Republican Ronald Reagan to the
:20:02. > :20:04.inauguration of Democrat Bill Clinton. Are you a political person?
:20:05. > :20:09.Absolutely. A political animal in every sense. And when we talked
:20:10. > :20:13.about the race issue, the feel that in America today, that the country
:20:14. > :20:15.has moved beyond race ` or is it still absolutely front`and`centre of
:20:16. > :20:20.the black experience? `` do you feel. No, it is still
:20:21. > :20:25.front`and`centre of the American experience. We don't really allow
:20:26. > :20:28.ourselves in the United States to have a real honest, open
:20:29. > :20:36.conversation, as is so needed, and not just in America but all over the
:20:37. > :20:40.world, about racism. And it is something that we simply have to do.
:20:41. > :20:50.It isn't something about which we can ignore, the subject matter. We
:20:51. > :21:00.have to talk, we have to try to understand one another. We have to
:21:01. > :21:03.understand that there are certain cultural differences. If we could
:21:04. > :21:06.understand that we all start from the same basis, from the same seed.
:21:07. > :21:10.Yes, I mean, that is undoubtedly true. But it doesn't mean that when
:21:11. > :21:12.you for example look out at an orchestra during a performance you
:21:13. > :21:19.are going to see a representation that reflects the demographic of the
:21:20. > :21:22.city where you might happen to be. Very often. Because frankly,
:21:23. > :21:26.wherever you are there will be many more white players than black
:21:27. > :21:29.players. And I wonder whether you think, with your experience in the
:21:30. > :21:33.industry, that would change? I am working to change that, and I am
:21:34. > :21:38.working to change that with the New York Philharmonic in particular, in
:21:39. > :21:41.New York. But we will find players who have the ability, perhaps not
:21:42. > :21:46.having had the experience, but certainly have the ability, to
:21:47. > :21:57.people these orchestras. But you are almost suggesting positive
:21:58. > :22:00.dissemination. No, no, no. `` positive discrimination. I am not.
:22:01. > :22:03.That isn't what works at all. When you are auditioning for an
:22:04. > :22:06.orchestra, you audition behind a curtain. The person doesn't know
:22:07. > :22:09.your sex, what you look like, that your father perhaps plays in the
:22:10. > :22:13.orchestra as well, because that simply isn't the way that it can be
:22:14. > :22:17.done, and be done democratically. What we have to see also happening
:22:18. > :22:27.is that everybody who is able to be there is there, and is invited. And
:22:28. > :22:29.that has to do with the general director, the artistic advisers, of
:22:30. > :22:35.a particular orchestra, of an Opera House society, that this is
:22:36. > :22:38.something that we just have to do. We can't go into the same river
:22:39. > :22:42.expecting that we are going to get a different result. We have to widen
:22:43. > :22:45.our expanse, and we have to widen our choice, and to make sure that we
:22:46. > :22:48.are making certain, making certain, that everybody that could possibly
:22:49. > :22:52.be at a level that would be required for playing in a symphony orchestra
:22:53. > :23:03.is there auditioning to play in that symphony orchestra. And we have
:23:04. > :23:06.discussed this in the context of race, but there is also a gender
:23:07. > :23:09.issue. Yes. You said that you have only played and performed in front
:23:10. > :23:12.of two female conductors. Is that really true? It is absolutely true.
:23:13. > :23:20.It is absolute nonsense. Jane Glover, who is English, and Rachael
:23:21. > :23:26.Worby, who is American. It is absurd, but it is true. We have to
:23:27. > :23:34.understand that the other half of the population, women, deserve to be
:23:35. > :23:38.treated in a much different way. Can you imagine if still the Congress in
:23:39. > :23:41.the United States were debating whether or not women should be paid
:23:42. > :23:45.the same amount of money as men for doing the same job? That still, in
:23:46. > :23:48.the United States, a woman is paid, very often in a corporation, 77
:23:49. > :23:56.cents in the dollar that a man is paid for the very same job? This of
:23:57. > :24:01.course is a nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Well, I asked you if you
:24:02. > :24:05.have politics in you, and you clearly do, but we have run out of
:24:06. > :24:08.time. Have we run out of time? Yes. Gosh, I was just getting warmed up!
:24:09. > :24:35.Thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:36. > :24:42.Hello. It looks as though Tuesday will turn out to be dry and bright
:24:43. > :24:43.for many central