:00:00. > :00:10.State. Now on BBC News it's time for
:00:11. > :00:15.HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. How serious a
:00:16. > :00:23.threat to Western security is the extremist group that calls itself
:00:24. > :00:26.Islamic State? According to those governments now backing military
:00:27. > :00:28.action against the jihadis, the danger is very real, not least from
:00:29. > :00:38.foreign fighters, battle hardened in Syria and Iraq, who return to homes
:00:39. > :00:41.in the West. My guest is the EU counterterror co`ordinator, Gilles
:00:42. > :00:42.de Kerchove. Does the EU have a coherent response to the Islamic
:00:43. > :01:16.State challenge? Gilles de Kerchove, welcomed the
:01:17. > :01:24.HARDtalk. Thank you for joining me from Brussels. Thank you for
:01:25. > :01:31.inviting me. Is the Islamic State organisation now the number one
:01:32. > :01:37.terror threat facing Europe? It is indeed the number one threat. We
:01:38. > :01:43.shouldn't overlook Al Qaeda which might still be in the game. Barack
:01:44. > :01:51.Obama suggested the rapid rise of the Islamic State took the American
:01:52. > :01:59.security apparatus I surprise. Is that true in Europe too? In Europe,
:02:00. > :02:03.we have been extremely aware of the threat of foreign fighters fought
:02:04. > :02:09.two years and we have worked on this subject two years ago. On the rise
:02:10. > :02:17.of ISIL, we were surprised by that but not by the rapid progress of the
:02:18. > :02:22.group in Iraq and Syria. No surprise that thousands of European citizens
:02:23. > :02:28.have flooded into Syria and Iraq to join IS? If it is no surprise, why
:02:29. > :02:35.haven't you stopped it? We have tried to stem the flow. Because we
:02:36. > :02:39.adopted several measures in June, 2013, we have reduced the number. It
:02:40. > :02:48.is steady growth and there are factors for that. It is easy to get
:02:49. > :02:51.to Turkey, it is cheap. The region has resonated well for people
:02:52. > :02:56.attracted by the jihadi narrative. These are reasons why the flow is
:02:57. > :03:00.different than what we experienced in Afghanistan, Somalia and Yemen.
:03:01. > :03:05.You say you have reduced the flow. Let's talk numbers. What do you
:03:06. > :03:09.believe the number of Europeans to be who are now fighting in Syria and
:03:10. > :03:16.Iraq for this organisation, Islamic State? I don't have precise figures
:03:17. > :03:20.on the people still on the ground. I would say that 3000 plus have been
:03:21. > :03:27.exposed to the phenomenon. We have something like 20% returnees,
:03:28. > :03:32.several who were killed and we still have several 100 fighting there.
:03:33. > :03:40.Described for me the typical profile, if there is such a thing,
:03:41. > :03:43.of the Islamic State fighter who has made that extraordinary decision to
:03:44. > :03:54.leave a home in Europe and join this very dangerous fight in the Middle
:03:55. > :03:59.East. We don't have a profile of the foreign fighter. We have different
:04:00. > :04:04.types of profile. People with a criminal record known by police. We
:04:05. > :04:08.have young people leaving with no previous criminal record. It's
:04:09. > :04:15.interesting to see why they go there. It may be very different.
:04:16. > :04:20.Some are attracted by what they feel to be a duty for the Muslims, to
:04:21. > :04:28.support the Syrian opposition. Some are driven by their Sunni `Shia
:04:29. > :04:31.fight. Some are attracted by the Al Qaeda rhetoric and some are just
:04:32. > :04:37.seeking the thrill of the fight. That is very disappointing. You say
:04:38. > :04:43.you are not surprised. I am guessing there are elements of this that
:04:44. > :04:48.surprise even you. In newspapers here over the last day or so, we
:04:49. > :04:53.have seen pictures of women, girls as young as 14 and 15 years old,
:04:54. > :04:58.posing for pictures in Syria, some of them holding automatic weapons,
:04:59. > :05:03.fully veiled, these are schoolchildren who somehow have
:05:04. > :05:07.found their way from Europe to the bad lands, the battle fronts of
:05:08. > :05:14.Syria. How on earth is that being allowed to happen? True and that is
:05:15. > :05:18.a surprise, to see the quite high number of females involved in a
:05:19. > :05:25.conflict. Very few are on the frontline. Most of them go for
:05:26. > :05:28.family jihad or a logistical function. Very few carry a
:05:29. > :05:36.Kalashnikov. This is a serious concern. It is easy to go to Turkey.
:05:37. > :05:41.It is a huge destination for tourism. From Turkey, for a certain
:05:42. > :05:45.period of time, it was possible to cross the border quite easily, which
:05:46. > :05:51.might explain why some of them went there undetected. We have improved
:05:52. > :05:57.the way people are controlling at the borders either because we know
:05:58. > :06:01.their intent before they leave or because we develop a mechanism like
:06:02. > :06:06.access to passenger name records to detect suspicious travel. I agree
:06:07. > :06:13.that it is amazing and we have got to really stop this flow. You are
:06:14. > :06:19.the EU anti` terror co`ordinator, which EU member states are the most
:06:20. > :06:25.problematic for you? Where the most fighters are heading out to Syria
:06:26. > :06:32.and Iraq? There is a core group of 10`11 member states out of the 28
:06:33. > :06:39.and Britain is an month`end. In terms of in relative terms, Belgium
:06:40. > :06:46.stands high, between 300`400 out of a population of 10 million. That is
:06:47. > :06:54.quite high. Germany, France, in absolute terms, probably the
:06:55. > :06:58.highest, 900. You have the Netherlands as well, the Danes, the
:06:59. > :07:05.Swedes, not many from Spain or Italy, a bit Austria. The core group
:07:06. > :07:10.countries are mentioned. I want to get to specific questions on what
:07:11. > :07:16.those EU member states are doing to curb and control this problem. For
:07:17. > :07:21.we do, I need to address the scale of the threat that you believe is
:07:22. > :07:27.posed by these people when they return and of course, many if not
:07:28. > :07:30.most of them to return to the EU, having had the battlefront
:07:31. > :07:37.experience in Syria and Iraq. How would you characterise the threat
:07:38. > :07:44.they pose on their return? We think that there is a risk, a serious
:07:45. > :07:47.risk, first, because they have been trained militarily to use explosives
:07:48. > :07:58.and arms, they have been brainwashed heavily. They might have friends and
:07:59. > :08:02.comrades all over the world, a huge network. More worrying, we have seen
:08:03. > :08:08.that with the person who allegedly has killed four Jews in Brussels,
:08:09. > :08:11.they have raised significantly the tolerance to violence so that we
:08:12. > :08:16.must look at each case when they return and assessed that the
:08:17. > :08:21.dangerousness. Some might need psychological support. Some might
:08:22. > :08:26.need social help to reinsert themselves into society. Some should
:08:27. > :08:29.be sent to court if we have the evidence. When we don't have
:08:30. > :08:33.evidence, which is a challenge as we are not present that may present in
:08:34. > :08:37.Syria, we need to monitor them closely. Have there been plots
:08:38. > :08:45.involving those individuals returning from Syria and Iraq that
:08:46. > :08:50.have been foiled inside the EU? This isn't information I have but I
:08:51. > :08:54.understand on one or two occasions, security services have stopped
:08:55. > :09:08.people from mounting a tax. But I cannot be more explicit `` attacks.
:09:09. > :09:11.Which countries would they be an? I don't have specific examples but I
:09:12. > :09:21.remember one specific example in France where they had enough
:09:22. > :09:26.evidence. In Brussels there was an attack in which four people were
:09:27. > :09:33.killed from someone who was in Syria. There was one in the UK.
:09:34. > :09:38.Before we get to the Brussels case, you are being, if I may say so, a
:09:39. > :09:42.little bit vague. You are the anti` terror co`ordinator, so I would
:09:43. > :09:46.expect you to know a lot of our plots that have been foiled. We had
:09:47. > :09:52.the Iraq Prime Minister, Haidar al`Abadi, just the other day say
:09:53. > :09:56.that he had specific information about plots involving the Paris
:09:57. > :10:00.Metro subway and indeed subway in the United States as well. What can
:10:01. > :10:07.you tell me about that, was it credible or not? I will disappoint
:10:08. > :10:10.you. From what I understand, America was surprised by the information
:10:11. > :10:15.revealed in the General Assembly in New York. The TV service in the US
:10:16. > :10:22.won't aware of that information `` weren't. I am not even myself
:10:23. > :10:29.informed of something specific in the subway or friends. By the way, I
:10:30. > :10:33.am not operations myself, I don't need to go into the detail, that
:10:34. > :10:37.isn't my task. You won't disappoint me. I am interested to know whether
:10:38. > :10:44.you believe certain governments may have an interest in talking up this
:10:45. > :10:47.threat to Western security interests from so`called Islamic
:10:48. > :10:52.State to a point which isn't actually justified by the facts. If
:10:53. > :11:00.you look at some research, I am sure you are aware of the Norwegian anti`
:11:01. > :11:06.terror expert, who has done an extensive survey of 900 returning
:11:07. > :11:10.jihadis returning over 20 years and he says that fewer than one in nine
:11:11. > :11:17.exhibit an inclination toward violence when they return to their
:11:18. > :11:21.Western homes. True, I have seen this study to the extent that it is
:11:22. > :11:25.a scientific study. Let's be honest, one in nine is quite impressive when
:11:26. > :11:31.you have 3000 Europeans who went there. I think we cannot play that
:11:32. > :11:35.game. We have to be well prepared. The good news would be that none of
:11:36. > :11:41.the returnees would mount any attack, nor ins by anyone in Europe
:11:42. > :11:45.to mount an attack. It's not just the returnees acting themselves.
:11:46. > :11:51.These are veterans and they might have an attractive effect on others.
:11:52. > :11:54.It's not only on Europe. Its north Africa as well, Tunisia has more
:11:55. > :12:03.than 3000 citizens currently in Syria. My Algerian colleagues
:12:04. > :12:06.reminded me that the awful decade where more than 100,000 were killed
:12:07. > :12:11.started with the return of the more the hiding from Afghanistan. History
:12:12. > :12:18.tells us to be extremely vigilant on this `` Mujahideen. By the way, it
:12:19. > :12:23.isn't just about military strikes, it is something we have worked on
:12:24. > :12:29.for more than 18 months before it was even the idea to intervene with
:12:30. > :12:35.military strikes. I don't see the politic. Just on that question of
:12:36. > :12:42.military strikes, the most impactful part of the Western response to
:12:43. > :12:45.Islamic State right now, do you, from your vantage point as
:12:46. > :12:50.co`ordinator of counter`terror in the European Union, think that it is
:12:51. > :13:01.helpful, intelligent, to respond to Islamic State by sending Western
:13:02. > :13:04.bombers to bomb them from the sky? I think it would be questionable if it
:13:05. > :13:10.were only that. I am in favour of airstrikes. We had to stop this
:13:11. > :13:18.organisation. It was destabilising completely the region, Jordan and
:13:19. > :13:21.Lebanon were the next step. Military strikes were very necessary because
:13:22. > :13:25.these people had access to heavy weapons. Sorry to interrupt but from
:13:26. > :13:33.a counter`terror point of view, surely the one thing that is bound
:13:34. > :13:37.to motivate these people to consider acts of political violence,
:13:38. > :13:41.terrorism, in those countries which are now bombing them, surely it is
:13:42. > :13:47.the motivation that comes from being bombed that is paramount? That is
:13:48. > :13:51.why I was able to say that it is just part of a much wider strategy
:13:52. > :13:58.but if you want, or approach, that has to be complemented with boots on
:13:59. > :14:02.the ground and that is what we have tried to have with the Iraqi army,
:14:03. > :14:07.the Peshmerga and the Syrian opposition, which should get more
:14:08. > :14:11.weapons. It's not only that. We have to work on the political level,
:14:12. > :14:14.important to convince the new Prime Minister in Iraq to have not only an
:14:15. > :14:21.inclusive government but inclusive policies so that the Shia, the Sunni
:14:22. > :14:24.and Kurds feel they share the benefit from the new policy. It is
:14:25. > :14:31.important that we split the coalition. As you know, this
:14:32. > :14:38.organisation is a mixture of jihadis, Sunni tribes and the former
:14:39. > :14:41.soldiers and officers from Saddam Hussein's army. They don't share the
:14:42. > :14:48.objectives. We have the split this odd coalition.
:14:49. > :14:56.You referred to boots on the ground. We know that boots on the
:14:57. > :15:04.ground are not effectively capable of driving Islamic State backwards.
:15:05. > :15:06.Are you saying from your particular vantage point that Western forces
:15:07. > :15:13.will have to put boots on the ground? They will have to provide
:15:14. > :15:19.arms and advice, and help with intelligence. But there are no other
:15:20. > :15:24.effective boots on the ground. The Iraqi army is pretty useless and
:15:25. > :15:27.Bashar al`Assad has no interest in helping the Western coalition so you
:15:28. > :15:32.can forget about them and the free Syrian army as well because it is
:15:33. > :15:35.not capable. Who are these boots on the ground if they will not come
:15:36. > :15:40.from member states of the European Union or the United States? They
:15:41. > :15:44.have said very clearly that they don't anticipate having troops on
:15:45. > :15:50.the ground and I think they will stick to this. You are quick to
:15:51. > :15:56.disregard the Iraqi army. There is room for improvement but they are
:15:57. > :16:00.not completely ineffective. The Peshmerga are good fighters and if
:16:01. > :16:06.we provide them with sophisticated weapons they can be very effective
:16:07. > :16:12.as well. This Syrian position is not easy but these people need to get
:16:13. > :16:18.better weapons as well in Aleppo and Iran because we cannot let it fall.
:16:19. > :16:22.There is not only that. The political approach but the
:16:23. > :16:27.educational approach. We have to be effective on the Internet and
:16:28. > :16:30.challenge the ideology. We have to ground the resources of the
:16:31. > :16:34.organisation. Oil production and money coming from different parts of
:16:35. > :16:42.the world as well as the arms access. It is a comprehensive
:16:43. > :16:48.approach that we will succeed at. We don't declare the war on terror like
:16:49. > :16:54.President Bush. We are mobilizing a military response to intervene. You
:16:55. > :17:02.say we have to do this and we have to do that and I want to know who we
:17:03. > :17:14.is? You are the EU Counterterrorism Coordinator. 90% of the Onis
:17:15. > :17:23.will.i.am the member states `` onus will lie on. I recall there is
:17:24. > :17:34.someone I appreciate a lot to I talk to quite often. As such an
:17:35. > :17:38.organisation, ministers will discuss policy. You have to look at both. It
:17:39. > :17:42.is a bit simple to look at the European Union like a strange
:17:43. > :17:49.animal, completely disconnected from what happens overseas home a that is
:17:50. > :17:57.not the case. So we have to mobilize certain measures. But you can't.
:17:58. > :18:01.There is no European Intel. You have a policing force and the judicial
:18:02. > :18:07.co`ordination force but fundamentally, more than anything
:18:08. > :18:14.else this is about intelligence and European member states are not
:18:15. > :18:16.compared to fully share and co`ordinate their intelligence
:18:17. > :18:19.operations. You know it and I know it and it is a problem that you
:18:20. > :18:28.cannot overcome. That is not fully true. On foreign fighters, the
:18:29. > :18:32.security forces of a group I referred to earlier are sharing 100%
:18:33. > :18:39.of the information they have. I am pushing them to use more European
:18:40. > :18:45.police forces. It is a unique force which can help detect suspicious
:18:46. > :18:50.travel and it can be quite effective in tracking activity around Syria
:18:51. > :18:56.and Iraq. The European Union has about 5% of the combatants but we
:18:57. > :19:02.can make this more effective. You said member states were not willing
:19:03. > :19:06.to co`operate effectively on anti` terror measures and given the
:19:07. > :19:10.evidence, we can go through it all the governments are doing, but it
:19:11. > :19:15.seems to me that the problem has not got better and you may face a
:19:16. > :19:20.difficult decision yourself. After seven years in the job this month, I
:19:21. > :19:24.have not yet decided to resign because I am convinced that we can
:19:25. > :19:29.add value. The treaty is what it is. We're not supposed to be in the
:19:30. > :19:35.driver seat. We are not responsible for security, the member states
:19:36. > :19:40.are. If you consider this a relevant, I think it is up to them.
:19:41. > :19:45.If they want to discuss this issue every three months, and propose
:19:46. > :19:57.measures because they believe in it, to be honest, everyone does. In
:19:58. > :20:11.Britain we are seeing ager of Conan crackdown proposed by the Cameron
:20:12. > :20:15.government `` a Draconian. They are denying passports of dual nationals
:20:16. > :20:18.returning from Syria, giving the police new powers to access Internet
:20:19. > :20:23.to medications and data. A whole raft of measures. When you look at
:20:24. > :20:27.this kind of crackdown, do you think it will be effective or not? I think
:20:28. > :20:37.it helps and I don't want to concentrate on Britain. Let me take
:20:38. > :20:42.France. In the past we were a bit sceptical about events countering
:20:43. > :20:47.violent extremism and because of Europe, we have tried to learn from
:20:48. > :20:52.other member states. The UK's channel programme and so forth. The
:20:53. > :20:55.action was decided by the French government and it was very much
:20:56. > :20:59.inspired by the work of the European Union and it has been quite
:21:00. > :21:08.effective. You worry about civil rights? You talk about Britain and
:21:09. > :21:11.France. A group of French judges have condemned the exorbitant powers
:21:12. > :21:18.of control and surveillance at the expense of freedom of expression. Do
:21:19. > :21:25.you worry about that? Not in the French draft legislation which I
:21:26. > :21:28.support fully. I think we need to allow people to prevent others from
:21:29. > :21:32.leaving the country and withdraw passports where necessary. We're
:21:33. > :21:40.trying to be effective at you are right. We have to be cautious ``
:21:41. > :21:48.but. We need to use this context to impose a big brother society and we
:21:49. > :21:53.need to strike the right balance. You keep saying we implying that
:21:54. > :21:57.there is a carefully crafted coronation at European level which I
:21:58. > :22:01.don't see. One other specific which is a major challenge to you. There's
:22:02. > :22:06.complete European disarray over the question of taking ransoms for
:22:07. > :22:09.hostages who have been taken by Islamic State. The British
:22:10. > :22:14.government is adamant it will not happen. We know despite official
:22:15. > :22:24.denials that both the French and the Italians do pay ransoms. What is
:22:25. > :22:26.your view as the co`ordinator of what should be done when hostages
:22:27. > :22:35.are in the terrible situations we have seen in Syria? In June this
:22:36. > :22:41.year, 28 ministers of foreign affairs made this very clear. We
:22:42. > :22:45.made a blunt statement that ransoms should not be paid. So who is not
:22:46. > :22:54.telling the truth because we know ransoms have been paid? I am the
:22:55. > :23:06.last one to challenge or to suspect that what the Prime Minister... Who
:23:07. > :23:10.did you say? France and Italy. If you look at the record, even
:23:11. > :23:17.President Obama has said that he believed that the French and the
:23:18. > :23:27.Italians have paid ransoms. I have no reason to believe in what the
:23:28. > :23:31.French president `` not to believe in what the French president or the
:23:32. > :23:36.Italian president say. The opposition of the European Union is
:23:37. > :23:40.clear in June of this year. You can tell me what official policy is and
:23:41. > :23:43.what officials say that the reality on the ground is different and I
:23:44. > :23:48.come back to that point. It makes the position of the European Union
:23:49. > :23:55.look incredible when you give me answers like that. I don't share
:23:56. > :24:00.your view. It is something which is much more clear than it was before
:24:01. > :24:05.banks to the work of the US and the UK and a step`by`step, we have a
:24:06. > :24:11.more clear policy which has been explicitly stated by the 28
:24:12. > :24:16.ministers. That is a step and I must say my British colleagues were also
:24:17. > :24:22.very pleased. We will have to end there. Thank you for joining me. My
:24:23. > :24:49.pleasure. Hello again. As we change the month,
:24:50. > :24:52.it looks like eventually we will change the weather type across the
:24:53. > :24:53.British Isles. Through September the jet stream was