0:00:05 > 0:00:06Now it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk with me,
0:00:18 > 0:00:26Stephen Sackur.
0:00:26 > 0:00:33Today, the BBC is running a series of programmes about democracy,
0:00:33 > 0:00:38the idea and the reality.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41It's a theme our guest today has reason to consider in great depth.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44Wu'erkaixi was one of the leaders of the Tiananmen Square student
0:00:44 > 0:00:46protest in Beijing in 1989.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49He became one of the Chinese government's most wanted men.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51He escaped, and he now lives in exile in Taiwan.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54And today, he joins me, and a HARDtalk audience
0:00:54 > 0:00:54here in London.
0:00:55 > 0:01:02APPLAUSE.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05Wu'erkaixi, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07Thank you very much.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10We could use more platforms like this to voice our idea.
0:01:10 > 0:01:16Well, I want to talk to you all about your ideas.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19And I want to begin by taking you back to 1989.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22You made a stand as a student leader for freedom and for democracy.
0:01:22 > 0:01:26And looking back at it now, it has cost you your life
0:01:26 > 0:01:28as you knew it then in 1989.
0:01:28 > 0:01:42On a personal level, do you have any regrets?
0:01:42 > 0:01:45Well, I survived in a great movement and I'm proud to be
0:01:45 > 0:01:46part of it.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48But it ended up as a massacre.
0:01:48 > 0:01:49Regret can sometimes be an understatement.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51I don't thing I have done anything wrong,
0:01:51 > 0:02:03and I'm actually very proud to be part of that historical event.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07But if you ask me the question the other way, if you ask me,
0:02:07 > 0:02:09do I want to do it again?
0:02:09 > 0:02:12The answer would be very hesitant because of the outcome, the result.
0:02:12 > 0:02:13It is nothing we have anticipated.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Yeah, that sort of what I was driving at.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19If you had a crystal ball, and could have seen into the future,
0:02:20 > 0:02:22and what happened to your futures and to your country,
0:02:22 > 0:02:25post-1989, would you have made the decision to go on hunger strike,
0:02:25 > 0:02:29to be one of the leaders going on to stages and demanding
0:02:29 > 0:02:31of the ruling party that they change and they deliver
0:02:31 > 0:02:32a democratic vision?
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Or if you'd seen into the future, would you have thought,
0:02:35 > 0:02:37"It's not worth it"?
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Yeah, the logic of all mass movements throughout history has
0:02:39 > 0:02:42always been like when people have a dissatisfaction,
0:02:42 > 0:02:44they come together, they express their voice,
0:02:44 > 0:02:46they try to apply pressure to the opponent, to the government,
0:02:47 > 0:02:54to the ruling party.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56And then hoping that they can take the better option,
0:02:56 > 0:03:00knowing there could always be some worse options that they take.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02And in China, that has often been the case.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05But how bad it can be we did not anticipate,
0:03:05 > 0:03:19massacre, bringing tanks, hundreds of thousands of troops,
0:03:19 > 0:03:21under siege, the whole Beijing City under siege.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25And in my personal account, I mean, yes, we paid a great price.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28I have not been able to see my parents, my family,
0:03:28 > 0:03:35for the last 25, 26 years.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39It is a great price to pay, but my price doesn't even compare
0:03:39 > 0:03:42with those who lost their life that night, hundreds if not
0:03:42 > 0:03:46thousands of them.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48Let's go back to those days of May and June,
0:03:48 > 0:03:511989, then we will look forward to where China is today
0:03:52 > 0:03:53and where it's going.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56But if we go to 1989, here is an interesting thought that
0:03:56 > 0:03:56I had.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59You were using this word "democracy" at the time,
0:03:59 > 0:04:01and yet you were a child of a one-party state.
0:04:01 > 0:04:06Yes.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09You were brought up in the country created by Chairman Mao.
0:04:09 > 0:04:10Yes.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13How on Earth did you know what democracy was?
0:04:13 > 0:04:15Well, first of all, the Communist Party never really
0:04:15 > 0:04:17denied the term of democracy.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19And in fact, the word democracy in Chinese translated back
0:04:19 > 0:04:21into English is people rule.
0:04:21 > 0:04:22So hey, people rule.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25And the Communist Party keep saying it is democracy.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28So, hey, that's a great idea, people rule.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30Didn't Chairman Mao call it the people's democratic
0:04:30 > 0:04:31dictatorship?
0:04:31 > 0:04:34Yes!
0:04:34 > 0:04:36To be totally honest, yes.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39We do not know much about democracy, other than the face value
0:04:39 > 0:04:46of the term.
0:04:46 > 0:04:51Other than some gigs that we had in the last ten years before 1989,
0:04:51 > 0:04:53ten years we looked at the West.
0:04:53 > 0:04:58What the real driving force that brought us to the streets of Beijing
0:04:58 > 0:05:01in 1989 was not so much our knowledge, deep knowledge
0:05:01 > 0:05:04of democracy, it's our deep knowledge of lack of democracy.
0:05:04 > 0:05:09We know what it is, and when we don't have democracy.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11And you were from a relatively privileged background.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15You were a guy that had the chance of a higher education in a Beijing
0:05:16 > 0:05:16University.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19In a way, I'm surprised that you were prepared to risk everything
0:05:19 > 0:05:22back in 1989, because there must have been a lot of fear.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25You knew the party was not going to easily accept
0:05:25 > 0:05:27what you were saying.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Again, we wanted to apply pressure, so hopefully they can take
0:05:30 > 0:05:31the better option.
0:05:31 > 0:05:43Yes, we were privileged.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46All university students in China in 1989 will be somehow considered
0:05:46 > 0:05:48privileged, because the college examination entrance rate
0:05:48 > 0:05:50is insanely low, something like 1%.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54And then, those of us who made it, we are almost guaranteed a position
0:05:54 > 0:05:56in society, but guaranteed by somebody else, never by ourselves.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00We did not want our life to be managed, to be handled,
0:06:00 > 0:06:01to be designed by someone else.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04After Deng Xiaoping came to power in 1979, ten years,
0:06:04 > 0:06:06he introduced the idea of reform and openness.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09He didn't really open China in 1989, he didn't opene the door,
0:06:09 > 0:06:12he opened the window, and gave just a glimpse of.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15Through that, we saw an idea of controlling one's life
0:06:15 > 0:06:16by himself, by herself.
0:06:16 > 0:06:17And that is very attractive.
0:06:17 > 0:06:23And that's something we don't have.
0:06:23 > 0:06:24So that attraction overcame your fear?
0:06:25 > 0:06:33I would say so, yes.
0:06:33 > 0:06:34That attraction is simply called hope.
0:06:34 > 0:06:51That is something that would overcome anything.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54Let me ask you something specific, the Chinese nation, I think,
0:06:54 > 0:06:56will always associate you with one particular moment,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59you and if you are the student leaders were invited to the great
0:07:00 > 0:07:03Hall of the people for a televised meeting with one of the party chiefs
0:07:03 > 0:07:05of the time, Li Peng.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07It was supposed to be a sign that the party
0:07:07 > 0:07:11hierarchy was listening.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14But when you got there, you didn't just sort of obediently
0:07:14 > 0:07:17accept and pay respects to Li Peng, you interrupted him.
0:07:17 > 0:07:23You said, "Sir, with all due respect, this meeting has come
0:07:23 > 0:07:25a month too late."
0:07:25 > 0:07:32And you said, "We should be setting the agenda, not you."
0:07:32 > 0:07:33That was extraordinarily confrontational.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36It was the 30th, 40th day of the student movement.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Yes, we were on hunger strike, of course it was confrontational.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41With all due respect, I think we invited them
0:07:41 > 0:07:48for that location.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52You said they invited us over, that is not what we had in mind.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55We asked for Li Peng to come out and have dialogue.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57That has always been the keyword of 1989,
0:07:57 > 0:08:02we wanted that dialogue.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06Eventually, we were asked to go to the place, to sit with them,
0:08:06 > 0:08:08so we thought, maybe this is the dialogue.
0:08:08 > 0:08:09But no, it wasn't a dialogue.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11It was a monologue.
0:08:11 > 0:08:12It was a lecturing.
0:08:12 > 0:08:13It was condescending, it's showing a message
0:08:13 > 0:08:16to the Chinese people that we students went too far.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18The hierarchies there were giving us some lecturing,
0:08:18 > 0:08:26like some lesson.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28But that cannot be televised to the Chinese people,
0:08:28 > 0:08:30because that would be a wrong message.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33What happened, really, is, after 20, 30, 40 days,
0:08:33 > 0:08:38with the pressure, something is happening.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41And this happened, and then this cannot be interpreted
0:08:41 > 0:08:43into something is.
0:08:43 > 0:08:44into something else.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47Do you think it made any difference, that image of you sort of treating
0:08:47 > 0:08:50Li Peng as an equal, not as some superior
0:08:50 > 0:08:53being on the top of the party, but as an equal.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55Do you think, whatever happened after 4th of June,
0:08:55 > 0:08:591989, in China, that image and that moment still matters?
0:08:59 > 0:09:01In two aspects, number one, it made an influence
0:09:01 > 0:09:04for the decision the Communist Party made when we are talking
0:09:05 > 0:09:05about massacre.
0:09:05 > 0:09:15About tanks moving in?
0:09:15 > 0:09:23Yes, I don't think so.
0:09:23 > 0:09:25The meeting, the set for the occasion was basically part
0:09:25 > 0:09:27of the whole plan.
0:09:27 > 0:09:39Before that day, they had no plan.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41They didn't know how to deal with this.
0:09:41 > 0:09:45They did not know when the world, the troops of world journalists
0:09:45 > 0:09:48coming to China to cover the summit between China and the Soviets,
0:09:48 > 0:09:50walking to a revolution, then they broadcast the image
0:09:50 > 0:09:59to the world.
0:09:59 > 0:10:00Then the pressure was enormous.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03Then the whole societies stood up to support the students.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05They had no anticipation of this.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07So they had no movement until that day.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10When that happened, when Li Peng agreed to meet with us,
0:10:10 > 0:10:12the whole plan, the decision was made already.
0:10:12 > 0:10:13That is how Communists operate.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15And you have used this word, massacre.
0:10:15 > 0:10:16Of course.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18A word, which the Chinese government refuses to accept,
0:10:18 > 0:10:20but I want you to tell me what...
0:10:20 > 0:10:23even 25-years on, recollect your feelings when you realised
0:10:23 > 0:10:25that it was happening, the tanks were rolling
0:10:25 > 0:10:27into Tiananmen Square, the light and edition was used,
0:10:28 > 0:10:30and hundreds, some say thousands, of your peers, students,
0:10:30 > 0:10:32protesters, some onlookers as well, were being killed.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35The term massacre, of course, has been attached to who I am
0:10:35 > 0:10:39in the last 20 something years, so there were a few occasions
0:10:39 > 0:10:41I looked into the dictionary for this word.
0:10:41 > 0:10:41Excuse me.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44It is like killing indiscriminately, every dictionary you look in,
0:10:44 > 0:10:46you will find the same answer for that.
0:10:46 > 0:10:59That is what it is.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Troops roll in, they have agenda, they need to clear Tiananmen Square,
0:11:02 > 0:11:05and whoever is in their way, they were given a green light
0:11:05 > 0:11:11to use real ammunition.
0:11:11 > 0:11:12And they did.
0:11:12 > 0:11:13Did you escape early?
0:11:13 > 0:11:14I was in the square.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Can amend square it self was not really the killing field.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19It was the avenues leading into it?
0:11:19 > 0:11:26Yes.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28When the troops came to Tiananmen Square,
0:11:28 > 0:11:31Liu Xiaobo negotiated a term with the troops to avoid massacre
0:11:31 > 0:11:32at the square.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35For him to get the Nobel Peace Prize, this is definitely one
0:11:35 > 0:11:47of the most important conditions, I believe.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50Did you try to speak to any of the soldiers yourself?
0:11:50 > 0:11:50No.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54I was, earlier, I went to one of the front line on the east side,
0:11:54 > 0:11:57trying to see what's happening there, but it was way too chaotic,
0:11:57 > 0:12:00there was no way to speak to anybody at the time.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02The shooting has already begun.
0:12:02 > 0:12:03I've seen people shot down.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07And the voice of bullets travelling in the air is something that I can
0:12:07 > 0:12:09still remember vividly.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11People's blood, the smell of the people's blood also,
0:12:12 > 0:12:16that is a bona fides massacre, so.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18Did you believe you would get out alive?
0:12:18 > 0:12:20No, I did not believe this.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22After the massacre, there were rumours after June
0:12:22 > 0:12:24the 4th day, we were hiding in cities.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27For me, the idea is for me to turn myself in.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30But there were rumours in Beijing to say, Wang Dan,
0:12:30 > 0:12:31OK, number one most wanted.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33They want him alive.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35That is the order given to the soldiers and police.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37Wu'erkaixi, they don't want me alive.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40The rumour, of course, there is no way to verify that,
0:12:40 > 0:12:42but that sounds like the Communist Party.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45So I don't even see a chance to turn myself in.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47So I decided to leave Beijing City.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49Maybe outside of Beijing, I can manage to be arrested
0:12:49 > 0:12:51by police, instead of soldiers.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54And then maybe by doing that, I can maintain some dignity
0:12:54 > 0:13:14at a personal level.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17You escape, and made it to the west, and eventually to Taiwan,
0:13:17 > 0:13:20and we are going to pick up your story back in Taiwan.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24But now, I want to reflect a little bit on the meaning of 1989
0:13:24 > 0:13:26and Tiananmen for today's China.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28Today's leaders in China still believe the chaos,
0:13:28 > 0:13:32what they see as the chaos, and the mob rule in Beijing in June
0:13:32 > 0:13:341989 is one of the best justifications for them
0:13:34 > 0:13:36maintaining their 1-party rule on the country today,
0:13:36 > 0:13:39because they are the guarantors of stability and security
0:13:39 > 0:13:42for the great mass of Chinese people.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44And they say nobody, nobody wants to go back
0:13:44 > 0:13:46to the crazy, awful days of Tiananmen.
0:13:46 > 0:14:04What is your response to that?
0:14:04 > 0:14:06Didn't we hear that from time to time from leaders
0:14:06 > 0:14:10around the world?
0:14:10 > 0:14:13They have to remain in power to provide safety and stability.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15They are the source of China's chaos.
0:14:15 > 0:14:19And not only in Tiananmen, not only in 1989, but in the last
0:14:19 > 0:14:2160 some years.
0:14:21 > 0:14:28But does not a pattern of events that we've seen,
0:14:28 > 0:14:31for example, in the middle east since 2011 support their case,
0:14:31 > 0:14:34their case being that in the end you need a strong,
0:14:34 > 0:14:39central government that is capable of imposing its will on the country,
0:14:39 > 0:14:40to deliver security?
0:14:40 > 0:14:43Because when you lose that, you can point to Egypt,
0:14:43 > 0:14:47you can point to Syria, or to Yemen, or a host of other Arab countries
0:14:47 > 0:14:50after the popular uprisings, when you lose that, you introduce
0:14:50 > 0:14:52chaos, and then ethnic tensions, and then internal violence
0:14:52 > 0:14:59on a scale that in China could only be imagined.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03Yet 750 years ago, you decide to adopt democracy.
0:15:03 > 0:15:11I am quite sure that in the early days of the beginning
0:15:11 > 0:15:14era of democracy, it was quite chaotic in this country, too.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16And then you manage to prevail.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18Democracy prevailed here in the last 750 years.
0:15:18 > 0:15:19Give them time.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23They need time, they need support.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26And then they need patting on the shoulders, say
0:15:26 > 0:15:26"You're doing good.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31You're doing better than yesterday."
0:15:31 > 0:15:37But not to accuse, like the price they had to pay for democratisation.
0:15:37 > 0:15:43I suppose the argument would be, far from paying a price over
0:15:43 > 0:15:45the last 30 years, the Chinese people have reaped
0:15:45 > 0:15:50the reward of stability.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53We have seen the most extraordinary improvement in material living
0:15:53 > 0:15:56standards known in human history, 600 million people or more lifted
0:15:56 > 0:16:00out of poverty by the 1-party Communist rule inside China.
0:16:00 > 0:16:10Today's president says this, in China, Xi Jinping,
0:16:10 > 0:16:12he says this, he says, "China cannot copy the political
0:16:12 > 0:16:14system or development model of other countries,
0:16:14 > 0:16:16it would not fit us.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19It would lead to catastrophic consequences."
0:16:19 > 0:16:25His message with us, you get prosperity.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28In the early 20, in 30 years of the last century,
0:16:28 > 0:16:30Hitler was saying just about the same thing.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32The centralised Nazi ruling, the Germany after the war,
0:16:32 > 0:16:36the first war, now we come together, gained the power, provide the people
0:16:36 > 0:16:39with more jobs, stability is, poverties, we get rid of poverties.
0:16:39 > 0:16:45Now the world needs to give in to what we want.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47But you're not...are you seriously comparing today's Chinese government
0:16:47 > 0:16:51with the Nazis in the 1930s?
0:16:51 > 0:16:52No, I'm not.
0:16:52 > 0:16:54I'm comparing the British.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57I'm comparing the British in the 1920s with British people
0:16:57 > 0:17:00today in the world, and then that's called appeasement.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03We had democracy in the last 800 years, always had enemies.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07The enemies come in different forms, different shapes,
0:17:07 > 0:17:10forming different ideas.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13Some Nazi Communist, they were fighting against each
0:17:13 > 0:17:15other, but they were both the enemy of democracy.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18And then, when we are facing the enemy of democracy,
0:17:18 > 0:17:20sometimes we make major mistakes.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24And this country remembers that mistake vividly.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27But I'm seeing it forgotten now.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30I guess it depends what you think democracy is for.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33Kishore Mahbubani, who's quite an influential diplomat,
0:17:33 > 0:17:37he was an ambassador in Singapore, he has written lots of books
0:17:37 > 0:17:40about what he calls the particular Asian model of development.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43He says, "In the West, we are far too hung up
0:17:43 > 0:17:47on the process and mechanism of democracy."
0:17:47 > 0:17:49What he says really matters is delivery,
0:17:49 > 0:17:52and if you have a system of government that effectively
0:17:52 > 0:17:54delivers for the people, then it doesn't need to be
0:17:55 > 0:17:56democratic in the Western individualistic sense,
0:17:56 > 0:17:59because it is delivering for the mass of the people,
0:17:59 > 0:18:01and you have your say that on those terms,
0:18:01 > 0:18:08the Chinese government is delivering for its people.
0:18:08 > 0:18:13You are using the word of the Singaporean Ambassador that
0:18:13 > 0:18:16made you escape one of my remarks.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19If you are saying that is the understanding of a Western
0:18:20 > 0:18:23democracy world, that delivering is most important,
0:18:23 > 0:18:29I would definitely go back again to the 20s
0:18:29 > 0:18:30and 30s, to Hitler...
0:18:30 > 0:18:32Maybe not Hitler, every time when I say Hitler,
0:18:33 > 0:18:35I see people, like, "No, you cannot say that."
0:18:35 > 0:18:36How about how about Mussolini?
0:18:36 > 0:18:39Let's use Mussolini, he's not as bad, not as evil.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43But, at the same time, he was providing, and he was called
0:18:43 > 0:18:50the one leader who is almost a modern time Caesar,
0:18:50 > 0:18:53Italian people still remember him as the one who makes the train
0:18:53 > 0:18:55go on time.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57I was in Italy recently.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00When they ask me, "Do we need to learn from China today,"
0:19:00 > 0:19:05because Italy is in trouble economically.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08And then I say, "You learn from China, why don't
0:19:08 > 0:19:09you learn from Mussolini?
0:19:09 > 0:19:10You had your own model."
0:19:10 > 0:19:12Then they understood.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16Maybe you are exaggerating...
0:19:17 > 0:19:18Am I?
0:19:18 > 0:19:21Let me discuss this with you.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23In China today, you see protest movements.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26If you read the Internet, you see that people have the space
0:19:26 > 0:19:27to criticise local officials.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29You see that Xi Jinping and his senior colleagues...
0:19:29 > 0:19:30Do they?
0:19:31 > 0:19:31Hang on.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35..have responded to the frustration with corruption in China
0:19:36 > 0:19:39by launching a massive anti-corruption drive with people
0:19:39 > 0:19:43like Bo Xilai and other senior officials being brought down
0:19:43 > 0:19:46because, partly, the public is demanding a cleaner government.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48So something is happening in China.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50Something is always happening in that massive country.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53LAUGHTER
0:19:53 > 0:19:55Excuse me, but when the Western world thinks
0:19:55 > 0:19:58of the term 'corruption', the idea comes to your mind
0:19:58 > 0:20:00because you have corruption in democracies, too.
0:20:00 > 0:20:12That's bribery.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14That's money exchange of profit from the government.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16That's your understanding of corruption.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18It is like nothing compared with the corruption
0:20:18 > 0:20:19happening in China.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22And let me tell you, Xi Jinping hasn't the least interest
0:20:22 > 0:20:24in getting rid of what I call systemic corruption.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26The government is corruption.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29You know China before the opening reform, it was so called a socialist
0:20:29 > 0:20:33country, how did they become a socialist country?
0:20:33 > 0:20:36They looted the former KMT's ruling Republic of China,
0:20:36 > 0:20:40got all the capitalists' property into the government,
0:20:40 > 0:20:42and when Deng Xiao Ping introduced the term reform,
0:20:42 > 0:20:45and privatise it, who gets benefit from that?
0:20:45 > 0:20:49The Communist Party ruling group.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51That is the corruption.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53Will Xi Jinping get rid of that?
0:20:53 > 0:20:54He cannot.
0:20:54 > 0:21:08He is getting rid of a couple of overly done corruptions.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11We have seen protests in Hong Kong, thousands of people on the street.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14They called it their umbrella revolution, but it didn't
0:21:14 > 0:21:14really get anywhere.
0:21:15 > 0:21:16It is an ongoing movement, sir.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18Let's go look into the future, then.
0:21:18 > 0:21:18Yeah.
0:21:18 > 0:21:22What do you see happening now in China in terms of developing
0:21:22 > 0:21:23a mass demand for real political reform?
0:21:24 > 0:21:26Communist Party is not used to facing people's demands,
0:21:26 > 0:21:28they don't know how to do that.
0:21:28 > 0:21:33They don't want to do it.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37Come to think about it, I can almost understand it we wanted
0:21:37 > 0:21:41dialogue in 1989, and then the dialogue has been the central
0:21:41 > 0:21:43phrase for the last 20 something years.
0:21:43 > 0:21:43Tibetans want dialogue.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46We would want dialogue.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48And this time, Hong Kong students want dialogue,
0:21:48 > 0:21:52they even decide to buy their own air ticket,
0:21:52 > 0:21:55and fly to Beijing, to have that dialogue.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57The Chinese government said no, no dialogue.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59And you have personally tried to return to your homeland.
0:21:59 > 0:22:00Yes.
0:22:00 > 0:22:01I know several times.
0:22:01 > 0:22:01Four times.
0:22:01 > 0:22:03And in a sense, you've said, "Arrest me."
0:22:03 > 0:22:04Yes.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06But then, take me back to my homeland, partly then
0:22:06 > 0:22:08because maybe then I can see my parents.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12And then I can continue the dialogue in the courtroom of China,
0:22:12 > 0:22:14even in the form of indictment and plea.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16I want to have that dialogue.
0:22:16 > 0:22:17Are you serious about that?
0:22:17 > 0:22:17Very much.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20Despite a comfortable life in Taiwan, and believing Taiwan
0:22:20 > 0:22:22is a working democracy, you would rather go back
0:22:23 > 0:22:26to your homeland, to China, to face a court and make your
0:22:26 > 0:22:26case for democracy?
0:22:27 > 0:22:29And then I can at least see my parents.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32Even if it is in the form of prison visits.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36And to fulfil and continue unfinished business we started
0:22:36 > 0:22:4325 years ago.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46I remember one of the letters of one of our prospective teachers back
0:22:46 > 0:22:49in 1989, who was in the street supporting us.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52And nowadays, he's a known dissident in China.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55She says, nowadays today, if you are not in prison,
0:22:55 > 0:22:57there is something morally wrong there.
0:22:57 > 0:23:07I'm moved.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11We're out of time, but one word, can there be democracy in China
0:23:11 > 0:23:11in your lifetime?
0:23:12 > 0:23:12Absolutely.
0:23:12 > 0:23:13I have to be optimistic.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17Before I came to the show today, I watched one of the early BBC shows
0:23:17 > 0:23:18of interviewing Gandhi.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20He was optimistic even back then.
0:23:20 > 0:23:21We have to end there.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23But Wu'erkaixi, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
0:23:23 > 0:23:24Thank you.
0:23:24 > 0:23:32APPLAUSE
0:23:50 > 0:23:52Good morning.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55London may not have been the sunniest place