0:00:12 > 0:00:15Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18My guest is South African jazz legend and political activist Hugh
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Masekela.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23His life and music have reflected the struggles of the anti-apartheid
0:00:23 > 0:00:25hero, and the years of black majority rule.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28So, why does he now describe South Africa as "fast turning
0:00:29 > 0:00:30into a rubbish dump, and becoming removed
0:00:30 > 0:00:47from its authentic African culture"?
0:01:04 > 0:01:08Hugh Masekela, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Thank you, thank you, Zeinab.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13You were born in 1939 in Witbank, 100 miles east of Johannesburg.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16You said "if I have a trumpet, I won't bother anybody".
0:01:16 > 0:01:23You say music is your religion?
0:01:23 > 0:01:24Well, I was obsessed...
0:01:25 > 0:01:39I was actually bewitched by music from infancy.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43When I was five years old, my parents had to get me away
0:01:43 > 0:01:46from the gramophone and help me play the piano, with piano lessons.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Nine years later, I saw a movie about a trumpet player.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52It was a biopic, called "The Young Man with the Horn".
0:01:52 > 0:01:53I had to play the trumpet.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56In fact, it was a man of religion, Father Trevor Huddlestone,
0:01:56 > 0:02:12who gave you your first trumpet?
0:02:12 > 0:02:15He was a chaplain of my boarding school, St Peters in Johannesburg.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17Yes, he was interested in everybody.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19He knew my parents, he knew everyone's parents.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22He was especially interested in restless people, like I was!
0:02:22 > 0:02:25I was in bed with a cold, I had bad flu.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27He said, what would make you happy?
0:02:27 > 0:02:29I was always in trouble with the authorities.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32When you're expelled in those days, there are no other chances.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35I said Father, if I could get a trumpet, I would not bother
0:02:35 > 0:02:36anybody any more!
0:02:36 > 0:02:37He said, are you sure?
0:02:37 > 0:02:39I said I was positive!
0:02:39 > 0:02:40And with his last £15...
0:02:40 > 0:02:41With his last £15?
0:02:41 > 0:02:44Yes, he sent me with a note to the music store.
0:02:44 > 0:02:45He knew everybody.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48The manager of the store was a Scotsman, he said
0:02:48 > 0:02:50he was crazy, £15 for a trumpet?
0:02:50 > 0:02:52But he put in his own money to do it.
0:02:52 > 0:02:53Everybody really respected him.
0:02:54 > 0:02:55That one act of kindness.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57And he was a great anti-apartheid activist, wasn't he?
0:02:57 > 0:02:59He got me a trumpet teacher.
0:02:59 > 0:03:09I already knew the rudiments of music as a piano player.
0:03:09 > 0:03:10I learned quickly.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13So we have Trevor Huddlestone is to thank for your legions of fans
0:03:13 > 0:03:16throughout the decades, for bringing us the work and music
0:03:16 > 0:03:17of Hugh Masekela?
0:03:17 > 0:03:18He was an amazing man.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21When he was deported from South Africa, he fought
0:03:21 > 0:03:22apartheid harder than anybody at the time.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25He was obsessed with the freedom of South Africa.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27He started the anti-apartheid movement when I came here.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29For 20 years, we had Trafalgar Square, where
0:03:30 > 0:03:31South Africa House is, was occupied.
0:03:31 > 0:03:41Let's see a clip of you performing.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43Sadly not with your trumpet, but you're singing Stimela
0:03:43 > 0:03:51at a venue in Johannesburg about five years ago.
0:03:51 > 0:03:52OK, should I watch?
0:03:52 > 0:03:52Yeah!
0:03:52 > 0:04:03(SINGING).
0:04:43 > 0:04:46I love those special effects you did there.
0:04:46 > 0:04:47Swaying slightly in my seat, I was!
0:04:48 > 0:04:50You have been performing of course for five decades,
0:04:50 > 0:04:52you played the trumpet, the horn, the cornet,
0:04:52 > 0:04:54and you've been composing and singing.
0:04:54 > 0:05:10But it was a tough path to success for you?
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Yes, few people are successful at success, especially
0:05:12 > 0:05:16in this business.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18To survive yourself, that is one of the greatest
0:05:18 > 0:05:19successes of success in my profession.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22Your music is a fusion of jazz with traditional
0:05:22 > 0:05:23South African influences.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26Why I say it was tough for you is because as apartheid
0:05:26 > 0:05:29began to advance, we found that there were no music schools
0:05:29 > 0:05:32or music lessons for black South Africans, and a little bit
0:05:32 > 0:05:35later, in the early 50s, there was the Bantu Education Act,
0:05:35 > 0:05:38which limited black South Africans to three hours of schooling per day.
0:05:38 > 0:05:39That was very difficult.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42You said you knew your place and you never looked forward
0:05:42 > 0:05:44to getting anywhere in the world.
0:05:44 > 0:05:58That is tragic.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01Yes, in South Africa, it was not only for the indigenous child.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04Any humane person was against the law in South Africa,
0:06:04 > 0:06:07the paradox is the greatest activity in music in South Africa happens
0:06:07 > 0:06:08during the apartheid era.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12Great musicians came out of that era, like the great Miriam Makeba,
0:06:12 > 0:06:14partly because the environment was very safe, there were police
0:06:14 > 0:06:17coming out of the walls, and the trees, and everything.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19It made the environment safer for the entertainment business.
0:06:19 > 0:06:35The police were not there to protect them, but to perpetrate apartheid
0:06:36 > 0:06:37as much as possible.
0:06:37 > 0:06:37But it created...
0:06:37 > 0:06:39That is where we all came up.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41There was never any music schools for Africans.
0:06:42 > 0:06:43There was not any lessons.
0:06:43 > 0:06:44Myself, I learned in Johannesburg.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47Me and my cousin came out of the Harrison Band to play
0:06:47 > 0:06:49with professionals as teenagers.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52The people we learned from were in their 30s and 40s,
0:06:52 > 0:06:53it was a hard time.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55Almost everybody I learned from died from booze.
0:06:55 > 0:06:56Yes, you mention booze.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59You were brought up by your grandmother who ran
0:06:59 > 0:07:00an illegal drinking den.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02People all around you were drinking, including you yourself.
0:07:02 > 0:07:03You started drinking at 14?
0:07:04 > 0:07:0413.
0:07:04 > 0:07:0413?
0:07:04 > 0:07:05There you are.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07It is documented in your own autobiography.
0:07:07 > 0:07:08Your struggle against alcoholism.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11You were an alcoholic by the time you were 20, 21?
0:07:11 > 0:07:12I did not know it.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15It was a respectable thing to be a great drinker.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18When it was illegal, it was one of the biggest business
0:07:18 > 0:07:18industries.
0:07:18 > 0:07:19among Africans.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21South Africa is probably like the biggest drinking country
0:07:21 > 0:07:23in the world today, because of that legacy.
0:07:23 > 0:08:21But, if you were a great drinker, you got major respect.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23It was a form of defiance.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26If your papers were right, you could walk up to a policeman
0:08:26 > 0:08:27as drunk as hell, as long as there was evidence,
0:08:28 > 0:08:29just say "would you like to see my papers?"
0:08:29 > 0:08:30Just about everybody I learned music from died from booze.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32On my mother's family's side, except my grandmother,
0:08:32 > 0:08:34my mother and her aunt, everyone died from booze.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37You said even today, drinking is such a culture
0:08:37 > 0:08:40in South Africa that people don't realise what it is doing to them?
0:08:41 > 0:08:43I don't know if you've ever seen the holiday statistics,
0:08:43 > 0:08:45at the end of the year.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48More than 17,000 people die a year in road accidents in South Africa.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50And you are quite outspoken?
0:08:50 > 0:08:52As a critic of heavy drinking, obviously
0:08:52 > 0:08:53because of your experiences...
0:08:53 > 0:08:53Everybody is.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55There's a major government initiative called "Arrive Alive",
0:08:55 > 0:08:57nobody listens because it is a habit.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01People have to be, if they leave the house, they have to drink...
0:09:01 > 0:09:08But you've battled it, and you've defeated your drink daemons.
0:09:08 > 0:09:09I've battled it and drug addiction.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13When I came to the States, it was a time in the music business
0:09:13 > 0:09:14of major drugging.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18When I moved to Los Angeles, there was the time of flower power.
0:09:18 > 0:09:18Free love.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20It was a common past time.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22You moved to the US in 1960, the early 1960s.
0:09:23 > 0:09:25You were helped by friends of the international community.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28You married in the mid-1960s, the late great Miriam Makeba.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31I was brought to the stage by Miriam and Harry Belafonte.
0:09:31 > 0:09:32I grew up with Miriam.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34You married in the mid- 60s?
0:09:34 > 0:09:35We married in 1964.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37I produced a lot of her records.
0:09:37 > 0:09:38We wrote quite a few songs.
0:09:38 > 0:09:51We worked together for over 40 years on and off.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54And you enrolled at the Manhattan School of Music,
0:09:54 > 0:09:56and enjoyed the tutelage of Dizzy Gillespie, Louis Armstrong,
0:09:56 > 0:09:59and that's when you began to develop your own unique style
0:09:59 > 0:10:16of Afro jazz.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18I went to the stage as a bebopper.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20I was a jazz musician, but everybody said hey,
0:10:21 > 0:10:23you will be a statistic if you came here for jazz,
0:10:24 > 0:10:26but we would like to hear some of your African stuff.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29I was hoping to play with the best.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, Donald Byrd, Kenny Doran.
0:10:31 > 0:10:32All of the great trumpet players.
0:10:33 > 0:10:34And saxophonists, they came from there.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37They said, form your own group, we want to hear African stuff!
0:10:37 > 0:10:38Dizzy said the same.
0:10:39 > 0:10:40Of course, Belafonte and Miriam did.
0:10:40 > 0:10:59That was the only way I got noticed.
0:10:59 > 0:11:10Otherwise you would not stand out...
0:11:10 > 0:11:14You think it was a result of your exile from South Africa that
0:11:14 > 0:11:16you became the renowned musician that you are?
0:11:16 > 0:11:17No, I think...
0:11:17 > 0:11:18I never looked for fame.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I wanted to learn, I went to classical music school.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25I wanted to teach in South Africa.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28Having been in the company of major activists, Belafonte was the biggest
0:11:28 > 0:11:30fundraiser for the civil rights movement involved
0:11:30 > 0:11:31in all of the fundraising.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34I learned from him more than anybody else.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37If you come from people underfoot, and you get your juice from them...
0:11:37 > 0:11:59If you don't talk about them, there's something wrong with you.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02You said on Channel 4 News here in the UK five years
0:12:02 > 0:12:06ago "my music was never meant to be political or even campaigning,
0:12:06 > 0:12:07I just sought to connect".
0:12:07 > 0:12:10But we all know Hugh Masekela as an activist, an anti-apartheid
0:12:10 > 0:12:12voice, as much as you are a musician.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14Well I came from an activist community.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16As children, we grew up in boycotts and rallies.
0:12:17 > 0:12:18We saw people like Nelson Mandela.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20They were in their 20s at rallies.
0:12:20 > 0:12:21We grew up with them.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24There were more than 30 million people underfoot.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27I think that the biggest liberators for South Africa were those who made
0:12:27 > 0:12:30South Africa ungovernable, and the ones who lost their lives.
0:12:30 > 0:12:31They were never mentioned.
0:12:31 > 0:12:57But, we grew up in an atmosphere of protest.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00Again, in an interview in 2012, when you were asked what the best
0:13:00 > 0:13:03experience of your career was, you said returning home after 30
0:13:03 > 0:13:07years of exile and having a second chance to start life in the arm
0:13:07 > 0:13:09of my folks has been great for me.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12But why were you away from South Africa for 30 years?
0:13:12 > 0:13:15I couldn't go back after 1964, our passports were taken away.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18I travelled on a Guinean passport and Liberian passport.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20So it was not self-imposed exile, you were not allowed
0:13:20 > 0:13:21back until 1990?
0:13:21 > 0:13:25My mother died in 1978, and my sister and I could not go
0:13:25 > 0:13:25and bury her.
0:13:26 > 0:13:35Miriam's mother died three months after she left South Africa.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39The earliest you could go back was 1990.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43You often talk about imposed exile.
0:13:43 > 0:13:51You say you could not have gone back before 1990.
0:13:51 > 0:13:52No.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57I could have but I would have...
0:13:57 > 0:14:01The government was crazy.
0:14:01 > 0:14:06I could have gone to jail and who knows what else.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10You felt that was not worth taking?
0:14:10 > 0:14:13There were many others who went to jail and returned.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17In 1963, when I finished my studies, I said goodbye to Miriam and I said
0:14:17 > 0:14:22that I was going back home, and I came here to England on my way
0:14:22 > 0:14:25back home and Harry called me because Miriam was very sick
0:14:25 > 0:14:27in hospital, and said, before you go...
0:14:27 > 0:14:30Anyway, to make a long story short, Harry said,
0:14:30 > 0:14:32look, if you go back to South Africa, nobody knows
0:14:32 > 0:14:43you in the upper echelons of government.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47All they know is you have been hanging out with us.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49You are going to disappear.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53If you stay here and make a name for yourself,
0:14:53 > 0:14:57you can talk about your country and garner support for it.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01You heeded that advice and returned in 1990 when the ANC was no longer
0:15:01 > 0:15:13banned and then we saw...
0:15:13 > 0:15:14All the political parties were banned.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16Black majority rule came in in 1994.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Nelson Mandela, with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission,
0:15:19 > 0:15:23extending his hand to South African whites...
0:15:23 > 0:15:26You said you didn't think you have the power to forgive white
0:15:26 > 0:15:29people, that's what you told the Observer newspaper in 2012.
0:15:29 > 0:15:30Do you still stand by that?
0:15:31 > 0:15:33What powers do I have to forgive anybody?
0:15:33 > 0:15:40I am not a god.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42Within yourself, do you not have the power to forgive?
0:15:43 > 0:15:45I have the right to keep what I feel.
0:15:45 > 0:15:50I was not able to bury my mother.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52I lost a lot of friends and relatives.
0:15:52 > 0:15:56More than that, there has never been a time in the history of human
0:15:56 > 0:16:00beings when colonising or occupational forces apologised
0:16:00 > 0:16:04and say, sorry that we took your land and we took all your minerals
0:16:04 > 0:16:09and we made these billions from your backs and we still have
0:16:09 > 0:16:12our businesses here, but here is £500 trillion to show
0:16:12 > 0:16:22you how sorry we are.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25When you see students at the University of Cape Town
0:16:25 > 0:16:28removing the statue of Cecil Rhodes, do you back them in that kind of...
0:16:28 > 0:16:34It was removed after it was damaged, defaced.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37Personally, I think the issues that should be dealt with is the fact
0:16:37 > 0:16:44that nothing much has changed in South Africa except that we vote.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48Economically, we don't own the country as a people,
0:16:48 > 0:16:49we are oppressed.
0:16:50 > 0:16:51We own less than 3% of land.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54We don't own any of the businesses or the economy.
0:16:54 > 0:16:58The few Africans who have been taken to be part of the business are drop
0:16:58 > 0:16:59in the ocean.
0:16:59 > 0:17:06That is the reality of the situation.
0:17:06 > 0:17:11Economic, apartheid still exists whereby economic wealth
0:17:11 > 0:17:16in South Africa is concentrated in the hands of white South
0:17:16 > 0:17:20Africans?
0:17:20 > 0:17:20Not only.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Community planning.
0:17:23 > 0:17:24Architectural apartheid.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27In fact, I normally joke, if we are going to legitimise
0:17:27 > 0:17:30everything, maybe we should also, instead of outlawing apartheid,
0:17:30 > 0:17:36we should legitimise it, because it is still here.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39There are many, Trevor Manuel, former government minister in 2013,
0:17:39 > 0:17:43he says you cannot undo those decades of apartheid in a short
0:17:43 > 0:17:59space of time.
0:17:59 > 0:18:00It is not possible.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03He says you are a magician, the legacy of apartheid runs too
0:18:03 > 0:18:05deep to reverse in the short period.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07I am not a minister.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10Do you agree that it will take more than 20 years to reverse apartheid?
0:18:11 > 0:18:13I don't think the onus will come from the administration.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16I think the political industry will have to come from those people
0:18:16 > 0:18:22who monopolise the economy of South Africa.
0:18:22 > 0:18:26If the goodwill doesn't come from them, it has been
0:18:26 > 0:18:29a one-sided reconciliation.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33What do you make of the record of the ANC with 20 years in power.
0:18:33 > 0:18:35It was the most...
0:18:35 > 0:18:39Inequality has expanded under the ANC.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43Most liberation movements are fantastic during liberation.
0:18:43 > 0:18:48But when it comes to governing, we always have to ask,
0:18:48 > 0:18:50can you remember any liberation movement that is governed well?
0:18:50 > 0:18:57I don't remember any.
0:18:57 > 0:19:02Because it is two different things.
0:19:02 > 0:19:07They inherit the power and from there you hope
0:19:07 > 0:19:08for the best.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11So far, we haven't seen it in South Africa, not with Mandela,
0:19:11 > 0:19:16not with the present government.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20Is that why you said this year that we have crime,
0:19:20 > 0:19:23corruption and a country that is fast turning into a rubbish
0:19:23 > 0:19:26dump, that is very strong language.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29Very strong.
0:19:29 > 0:19:34I think it is much worse.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38If you are free and you can't walk around at night in your own country,
0:19:38 > 0:19:40then what kind of freedom is it?
0:19:40 > 0:19:43There is a constitution, human rights, enshrined,
0:19:43 > 0:19:44gay rights and so on.
0:19:44 > 0:19:49It is all paper.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52There are gay rights but gay people have a rough time in the townships.
0:19:53 > 0:19:57You can write stuff down and you can decree laws but are they real?
0:19:57 > 0:20:01There are problems in England, and England is thousands of years
0:20:01 > 0:20:05old, but it has its fair share of everything
0:20:05 > 0:20:08from xenophobia to poverty.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11You have mentioned xenophobia.
0:20:11 > 0:20:18We saw that ugly face, well, not xenophobia,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21but Afrophobia, where Africans turned on other Africans,
0:20:21 > 0:20:24be they Nigerian or Somali, they trashed their property
0:20:24 > 0:20:29and businesses and people were fearful for their lives.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32What did you feel?
0:20:32 > 0:20:40That song we played earlier is about migrant workers.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43It is a legacy of Cecil Rhodes and British colonialism,
0:20:43 > 0:20:47originally when they brought indigenous Africans to South Africa,
0:20:47 > 0:20:54they could only come in as endangered servants of migrant
0:20:54 > 0:20:57labour and they were segregated from the south African indigenous
0:20:58 > 0:21:00population, living in single men's hostels.
0:21:00 > 0:21:14The community was manipulated into thinking otherwise.
0:21:14 > 0:21:19You blame the old apartheid system and white colonial rule
0:21:19 > 0:21:23for the attacks that we saw?
0:21:23 > 0:21:25Because that might not wash with everyone.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27I blame them for chaos across the world.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30You have said Africa's problems are cultural.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33In 20 years, when my grandchildren ask who I am, I will say,
0:21:33 > 0:21:40it is rumoured we were once Africans long ago.
0:21:40 > 0:21:46You feel Africans are denigrating their own culture?
0:21:46 > 0:21:49The conquest and defeat of Africans over the years,
0:21:50 > 0:21:55urbanisation, mis-education, politics and religion,
0:21:55 > 0:22:01have made Africans think their own heritage is backwards and primitive
0:22:01 > 0:22:05and savage and barbaric and pagan.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07The colonials don't have to do the job anymore,
0:22:07 > 0:22:12Africans do it for them.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15Basically, Africans have no idea of their history.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19It will create a situation where the new African academies can
0:22:19 > 0:22:24sprout up all over the world, where we can really learn the true
0:22:24 > 0:22:29history of Africa, the kingdoms, how and why we were fragmented.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33When it comes to music you have also said all that is new and considered
0:22:33 > 0:22:45new today is electronic.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47There is no new music in South Africa.
0:22:47 > 0:22:48In Africa, period.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50There is plenty of...?
0:22:50 > 0:22:52The most recognised African musicians internationally are those
0:22:52 > 0:22:56that come from heritage music.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59That doesn't mean there are not people sticking to their traditions
0:22:59 > 0:23:02in their music.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06There are plenty playing on the continent who are popular.
0:23:06 > 0:23:07You accept that?
0:23:07 > 0:23:09If you can give me an example.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11Miriam Macaba's daughter, she sticks hard to local music
0:23:11 > 0:23:19in South Africa.
0:23:19 > 0:23:21There are people who are singing in Zulu and whatever.
0:23:21 > 0:23:27I mean don't get played on the radio, like hip-hop artists
0:23:27 > 0:23:30and DJs, that is what has taken over.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34If you sang a song today, would it be a happy or sad song?
0:23:34 > 0:23:38A happy or sad song for Africa?
0:23:39 > 0:23:53If I had to sing a song for Africa it would be a song of wish and it
0:23:53 > 0:23:57would be down with the borders of 1886, that would be my song.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Hugh Masekela, thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03I don't shake hands, do you mind if I hug you?
0:24:03 > 0:24:03LAUGHS.
0:24:03 > 0:24:31Yeah, sure.