:00:00. > :00:19.With me, Zeinab Badawi, from the London Coliseum.
:00:20. > :00:28.For more than three decades she
:00:29. > :00:30.has performed as principal dancer at most leading
:00:31. > :00:34.ballet establishments, redrawing the boundaries of the genre.
:00:35. > :00:36.But at the end of this year, she retires.
:00:37. > :00:39.She will undoubtedly go down in ballet history as one
:00:40. > :00:42.of the greatest dancers of all time, but she has famously been dubbed
:00:43. > :00:46.'Mademoiselle Non' for being too assertive.
:00:47. > :00:53.I speak to her about that, as well as
:00:54. > :00:58.her environmental activism to save the planet.
:00:59. > :01:11.Thank you very much, Zeinab Badawi. You are arguably the greatest
:01:12. > :01:15.ballerina of your generation, and yet the irony is you never set out
:01:16. > :01:20.to be a ballet dancer. What is the sort of lesson in that? Well, I
:01:21. > :01:25.think it was very lucky for me to come from nowhere. Because they had
:01:26. > :01:29.no expectations, you know, I was not waiting for something and I was not
:01:30. > :01:34.dreaming of just one role. And it was for a lot of decisions in my
:01:35. > :01:38.life. It really helps me. So you actually started out wanting to
:01:39. > :01:45.become a gymnast. And when you are 11 you were sent to the Paris Opera
:01:46. > :01:49.Ballet for a year's training, and that is when you discovered that
:01:50. > :01:55.actually it was ballet that really excited you. Yes, I had a year when
:01:56. > :02:01.I was doing gymnastics and dance, I was living. Life of the little rat,
:02:02. > :02:04.the little pupils of dance. And at the same time I was doing
:02:05. > :02:08.gymnastics. But at the end of that year there was a show, and the
:02:09. > :02:15.directors of the school, Claude Bessy, asked me if I wanted to be
:02:16. > :02:20.part of it. She saw that... I had a friend with me, and she was not
:02:21. > :02:24.really gifted but she thought that I could maybe do the show. I said
:02:25. > :02:31.yes, why not? Because the night was not really fun, let's try the show.
:02:32. > :02:36.And the costume, and make up, and finally when you are on stage and
:02:37. > :02:37.the curtain is going up, the performance, at the moment, and the
:02:38. > :02:43.reaction of the audience, that was it. That was it, so then you joined
:02:44. > :02:51.the Paris Opera Ballet. And when the legendary dancer Rudolf Nureyev
:02:52. > :02:56.became director of that, the pluck to 19 from the ranks of the ballet
:02:57. > :03:02.dancers. What do you think you saw in new? I mean, I was 19, I was
:03:03. > :03:07.really motivated and had some quality -- saw in you. I think he
:03:08. > :03:09.saw that passion I had on stage and the fact that I was always
:03:10. > :03:14.considering the moment on stage different way of being, being on
:03:15. > :03:21.stage. You know, and we were lucky. We were really lucky. We were a
:03:22. > :03:27.bunch of young people, very angry, very motivated. You are a dance with
:03:28. > :03:30.this great name. But I have to say, because you fought with Rudolf
:03:31. > :03:37.Nureyev, or rather you disagreed with the choices he made for you.
:03:38. > :03:41.It's not that, it didn't matter. He was someone really intelligent, with
:03:42. > :03:44.a vision, and he gave us the opportunity right away. And then the
:03:45. > :03:46.fact that we were a little bit similar. I didn't know how to
:03:47. > :03:53.communicate, he didn't know how to communicate. He was shy, I was shy.
:03:54. > :03:57.Were you really shy though? You must have been very confident at such a
:03:58. > :04:01.young age, to take on, as it were, one of the greatest dancers of all
:04:02. > :04:09.time, Rudolf Nureyev, so much older than you and so on. It was a
:04:10. > :04:15.question of being just and fair, and great saw him as unfair. And he knew
:04:16. > :04:18.that. Give me an example of how you thought he was unfair? Well, he was
:04:19. > :04:24.screaming very fast and didn't want to discuss. Just do this, do that?
:04:25. > :04:27.Yes, and it was his decision and sometimes I thought it was unfair,
:04:28. > :04:31.he was taking a lot of time for rehearsal and I had something to do
:04:32. > :04:41.after, I could see my time passing. So we had a fight. Please give me
:04:42. > :04:44.the opportunity to... It is interesting, the American director
:04:45. > :04:50.William Forsythe says of you she was the first ballerina to take her
:04:51. > :04:53.career into her own hands. And that led to that famous nickname
:04:54. > :04:58.Mademoiselle Non, for being too assertive. That was the nick of
:04:59. > :05:04.which was given to you by the then director of the Royal Ballet in
:05:05. > :05:08.London. I am proud of it, in a way. It was funny in the beginning. It
:05:09. > :05:11.was important for me. I left Paris Opera Ballet because I was not happy
:05:12. > :05:19.there and they wanted me to do things I didn't want to do. You left
:05:20. > :05:22.in 1989. Yes, to go to the Royal Ballet, and I didn't want to do the
:05:23. > :05:27.same thing. When I was offered things I didn't want to do I said
:05:28. > :05:31.no. What it was coming from a woman, and from a dance, we are used to
:05:32. > :05:38.saying yes and doing what we are told. Because you had very, very
:05:39. > :05:41.well reported disagreements with the choreographer Sir Kenneth MacMillan
:05:42. > :05:48.and on one occasion a full-scale row and people in the company could
:05:49. > :05:52.hear. You know everything! I do, I have looked at this. Why do you
:05:53. > :05:57.think you fought with him so much? Because what Anthony Dowell said of
:05:58. > :06:03.you is that although he is a big admirer of view, obviously, that she
:06:04. > :06:11.didn't understand that choreographers were gods and ruled
:06:12. > :06:15.the roost. It is a problem. Yours or Sir Kenneth MacMillan? You know
:06:16. > :06:19.what, with all those years and all the people I met around, I realised
:06:20. > :06:24.my ego was very, very small compared with a lot of other people. And I
:06:25. > :06:33.figured that one it was him, he approached me as being a French
:06:34. > :06:40.star. It was not anything artistic, you know, it was more personal. You
:06:41. > :06:47.talk about how he saw you as a French star, because William
:06:48. > :06:51.Tuckett, the dancer and choreographer, said stardom is
:06:52. > :06:58.somehow frightfully British. Did you think there was a culture where you
:06:59. > :07:01.are this is in moving to London Royal Ballet? It might have been a
:07:02. > :07:07.bit of that. He had been a little bit upset because I said no to one
:07:08. > :07:18.of his ballets. For me, one of his ballets he was really proud of, I
:07:19. > :07:23.guess, and he wanted me to do it, and I said no. Is that the problem?
:07:24. > :07:26.There has been some debate about your personality. For instance one
:07:27. > :07:30.ballerina at the Royal Ballet writes about how thrilled she was when you
:07:31. > :07:35.join the Royal Ballet, but she said of view, she just wouldn't have
:07:36. > :07:41.anything to do with us. She wouldn't talk, where share dressing rooms,
:07:42. > :07:44.she wouldn't eat in the canteen. You issued a communique saying if I want
:07:45. > :07:47.to know what the weather is like I can look out the window, I don't
:07:48. > :07:54.need to go to the canteen and talk about it. That sounds a bit aloof?
:07:55. > :07:58.No, you have to understand, I arrived, I was 24, I left Paris
:07:59. > :08:02.Opera Ballet, my English was very bad, and no one at the Royal Ballet
:08:03. > :08:05.helped me with English, and I discovered afterwards a lot of
:08:06. > :08:09.people were speaking French but no one helps me. So automatically...
:08:10. > :08:14.And also I lived through a difficult time in Paris, so it was not easy to
:08:15. > :08:17.make friends right away and be disappointed. I think at the time I
:08:18. > :08:25.preferred not to make friends, not to be disappointed. But you also, in
:08:26. > :08:28.your dancing, push the boundaries and you are famously known for your
:08:29. > :08:33.ability to stretch one leg up to your ear. Do you break the rules of
:08:34. > :08:39.that rule of classical ballet, almost, in a way, consciously? You
:08:40. > :08:44.want to innovate? Or is it just that you want to show people you can do
:08:45. > :08:47.this? It was my way of doing it, and that is where it was important for
:08:48. > :08:51.me not to have a dream, not the dream of being a ballerina. It is
:08:52. > :08:54.what I feel I could do on stage, the way I wanted to do it, and that was
:08:55. > :08:59.my way of expressing. It was not showing off, it was not proving
:09:00. > :09:04.anything else, it was not against any tradition. No, it was my way, my
:09:05. > :09:10.vision of it. Which didn't appeal to an doormat everybody, many years
:09:11. > :09:16.ago, Clement Chris, the Financial Times Ballet critic, didn't like it
:09:17. > :09:22.at all, he described your dancing in general as vulgar, is what he said.
:09:23. > :09:27.Yes, he said that, but they asked one of his contemporaries about
:09:28. > :09:32.lifting the lead like this, and she said if I could have done it would
:09:33. > :09:37.have done it it is something people don't want to lose, kind of a
:09:38. > :09:46.nostalgic way of being about ballet. Of Victorian ballet critic says your
:09:47. > :09:53.performances can be detached. She says you dance the Black Swan
:09:54. > :09:57.perfectly lovely to look at but perfectly cold. That observation has
:09:58. > :10:04.been made about your dancing, one Royal Ballet principal says that
:10:05. > :10:07.while you are aware of Sylvie's acting while you are on stage with
:10:08. > :10:11.her, it just doesn't cross the lights? Did you feel you should put
:10:12. > :10:16.more passion into your... I don't agree, I don't agree at all. Again,
:10:17. > :10:21.people I used to people expressing things in the past, so they don't
:10:22. > :10:27.recognise the way you do it. But I can tell you, a lot of people after
:10:28. > :10:31.said that they read through the story with me and understand it. It
:10:32. > :10:35.is a way of habit, and when you break the habit of people they are
:10:36. > :10:39.lost and they prefer the say that you are wrong then maybe they can
:10:40. > :10:44.see differently. Do you think that, we all see the world of ballet as
:10:45. > :10:50.this obviously beautiful world and usable dancers and wonderful sets
:10:51. > :10:53.and so on. But you have also spoken in the past about how, through your
:10:54. > :10:59.work, you have learned about people and betrayal and stupidity, you have
:11:00. > :11:04.said. Do you remember saying that, and what did you mean by that? Yes,
:11:05. > :11:08.because a dance company is a representation of society, it is a
:11:09. > :11:12.small society there. So you have all kinds of person. It's true that I
:11:13. > :11:16.was very naive. I said maybe it was my upbringing and I was convinced
:11:17. > :11:21.that as a group you could help each other and things like this. But I
:11:22. > :11:25.realised then I was never part of a group. People, even if I wanted to
:11:26. > :11:31.be, people never saw me as part of the group. Why? Because already when
:11:32. > :11:34.I was a young gymnast, I was the youngest of the team. I could do
:11:35. > :11:39.things, you know, I could do things very nicely. And then I was on the
:11:40. > :11:44.top of that, the daughter of the teacher. So I had to play, you know,
:11:45. > :11:52.one step under to be accepted. Then when I arrived at Paris Pooraka, the
:11:53. > :11:57.director said the same thing. She saw that I had quality and gave me
:11:58. > :12:03.some things to do before the others -- Paris Opera. So to be accepted by
:12:04. > :12:07.the group, you need to be like that. You hear of rivalry is going on in
:12:08. > :12:13.the world of Ballet and the most recent example was a couple of years
:12:14. > :12:18.ago when the Bolshoi Ballet director was jailed along with somebody else
:12:19. > :12:24.for throwing acid into the face of the artistic director of the Bolshoi
:12:25. > :12:27.Ballet. And we heard about all the intrigue that is going on behind the
:12:28. > :12:33.scenes, the allegations of favouritism, bribery even. Does that
:12:34. > :12:40.resonate with you in any way? Did you experience, perhaps not to that
:12:41. > :12:44.degree, obviously, any of that kind of poisonous rivalry? No, not at
:12:45. > :12:52.all. Not at all. It was through the work in Paris Opera and the Royal
:12:53. > :12:56.Ballet, it was about the work. But that didn't lead to any kind of
:12:57. > :13:01.jealousy that you are aware of? Promoter who promote the Bolshoi
:13:02. > :13:04.told me that jealousies are not unknown to me in dealing with other
:13:05. > :13:08.companies as well. Though of course he said that what happened at the
:13:09. > :13:14.Bolshoi was outside the usual norm. But you must have seen things? No,
:13:15. > :13:18.it is the same in a bigger society. You have the same kind of adoration,
:13:19. > :13:24.hatred, jealousy. You have that, human beings is there, as a dancer,
:13:25. > :13:27.everything that is good about it and everything that is bad. But it never
:13:28. > :13:31.went to the extent of being threatened or something like this,
:13:32. > :13:38.never. You left the Royal Ballet for good in 2007, you joined Sadler as
:13:39. > :13:43.well and began to work in contemporary dance. Did you see that
:13:44. > :13:52.as a new beginning in your life? Not at all. I always said I was lucky as
:13:53. > :13:56.a young dancer to have Rudolf Nureyev in the Paris Opera. He
:13:57. > :14:00.opened the door to many Corrie choreographers from everywhere in
:14:01. > :14:04.the world, and contemporary work as well as classical. It was
:14:05. > :14:07.fantastic. The same day we were doing classical ballets, really
:14:08. > :14:13.classical, and at the same time we were doing Bob Wilson Theatre, only.
:14:14. > :14:18.And I said OK, that's what I want to do. I want to experience everything
:14:19. > :14:21.I can on that stage, whether it is classical or contemporary. And that
:14:22. > :14:24.is what you are doing now in your farewell tour, because you turn 50
:14:25. > :14:28.this year, and you've got your worldwide tour where you are
:14:29. > :14:34.performing in lots of venues across different continents, and it is
:14:35. > :14:36.called Life in Progress. That is interesting, because that is quite
:14:37. > :14:44.contradictory title to have for somebody's farewell tour.
:14:45. > :14:56.It was all going back and having this voucher. -- nostalgia. The best
:14:57. > :15:02.way to end is to go on the way I did until now. And you are working with
:15:03. > :15:07.them as choreographers like William Forsythe. You have a new duet that
:15:08. > :15:15.has been created for you with the Italian dancer Immanuel Montanaro
:15:16. > :15:20.and. That is quite unusual for one ballerina to perform a duet with
:15:21. > :15:25.another? Maybe it is. But it is something I have never experienced.
:15:26. > :15:32.I thought it was a good choice for the type of choreography. I had to
:15:33. > :15:38.find someone who wanted to do something. And he is a dancer who is
:15:39. > :15:45.very happy to be there and wants to work. It is a nice experience. Are
:15:46. > :15:49.you making a stand for ballerinas, you said earlier on that people saw
:15:50. > :15:53.you as too assertive as they were used to ballerinas doing what they
:15:54. > :15:59.are told. You see yourself as a feminist, for instance? Well, of
:16:00. > :16:04.course. There are many things to be learned for women. We think we have
:16:05. > :16:08.made a lot of progress. But not in the wrong way. Not in silly little
:16:09. > :16:13.things. I think it is true that women do not have their place in the
:16:14. > :16:18.world. It doesn't make the world... The world is not balanced because of
:16:19. > :16:25.that, still. In ballet we hear a great deal. Everybody in ballet,
:16:26. > :16:31.male or female, are suffering a lot for their art because of the
:16:32. > :16:36.punishing exercise schedules. But there is a lot put on the size of
:16:37. > :16:39.ballerinas. We know that there are eating disorders which affect
:16:40. > :16:46.ballerinas disproportionately to other women and so on... I mean, you
:16:47. > :16:54.have seen those precious. I have seen a. -- pressures. It shows what
:16:55. > :16:58.we have to sacrifice. It shows we are doing something we like. Ask
:16:59. > :17:05.around, how many people in the world to things they like and choose. --
:17:06. > :17:12.do. That is what I and doing. Most able to go on stage, it should be
:17:13. > :17:17.that way. -- people. Someone asked me if it was a sacrifice. Not at
:17:18. > :17:21.all. It is a lot of time and effort but it is great and I chose it.
:17:22. > :17:27.Sometimes you have the poor who are doing it because their parents are
:17:28. > :17:30.pushing them. -- people. They have psychological problems and get
:17:31. > :17:35.eating disorders. But overall it should be something of passion.
:17:36. > :17:42.Really? The Cuban dancer has said that dancing is not an easy life. We
:17:43. > :17:48.work hard and we pay a price. People often do not see that side of it. It
:17:49. > :17:51.is a price to pay. I prefer to have a bit of difficulty to walk in the
:17:52. > :17:56.morning than to have to wake up every day and go to an office or do
:17:57. > :18:01.a job I don't want to do which is really... It is only one life. This
:18:02. > :18:08.one is a place where it is extraordinary. You are living that.
:18:09. > :18:12.Yes, he did have a price to pay. Yes, it is difficult. But it is not
:18:13. > :18:16.for the people to know that. And people come here to dream. You are
:18:17. > :18:20.not going to show it is difficult to do it... So when you get out of bed
:18:21. > :18:30.in the morning sometimes you feel stiff's since I was 20. It is just a
:18:31. > 1:31:07part of it. Even if in many years to come... I would not change the job I
1:31:08 > 1:31:07am in. I have been doing it for 39 years now. I would not change
1:31:08 > 1:31:07anything. You have talked about how when you do retire at the end of
1:31:08 > 1:31:07this year that you want to engage more with some of the courses that
1:31:08 > 1:31:07you are attached to, in particular, Sea Shephard. A society that
1:31:08 > 1:31:07protects ocean wildlife. You were on the Farah Islands last year along
1:31:08 > 1:31:07with other celebrities. Charlie Sheen. , Anderson. Hugh ERA vegan.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07-- Pamela Anderson. What would you say to people saying that you are a
1:31:08 > 1:31:07celebrity lending your name to another cause. -- you are a vegan. I
1:31:08 > 1:31:07realised that since I am doing that I have changed my life ideas ago and
1:31:08 > 1:31:07I decided that... It's triggered something in me. I want the people
1:31:08 > 1:31:07do have this kind of trigger to open their eyes and maybe do their part.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07So, I can do it because I go in the theatre and I touch more people than
1:31:08 > 1:31:07when I go to the restaurant and you have a table of four. Yes, some
1:31:08 > 1:31:07people can open their eyes and do something, that is great. When you
1:31:08 > 1:31:07left the Farah Islands last year 14 activists were arrested after you
1:31:08 > 1:31:07had gone. Does that concern you at all that sometimes activism may
1:31:08 > 1:31:07border on the side of illegal activities or possibly illegal
1:31:08 > 1:31:07activities? No. What it means is that you put in prison those people
1:31:08 > 1:31:07who tried a sickly to save the life. -- basically. They go to jail. But
1:31:08 > 1:31:07the people who are destroying... Illegal wailing, for example. The
1:31:08 > 1:31:07people who are destroying the planet. It is illegal for them to
1:31:08 > 1:31:07destroy the world. Whether it is by pesticides or overfishing, all of
1:31:08 > 1:31:07that is legal. It is destroying and cutting the forests. That is legal.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07That is not a problem. But the people who want to say, OK, listen,
1:31:08 > 1:31:07this is not right, they go to jail. You are a vegan. You say you do not
1:31:08 > 1:31:07believe in a single animal dying for you. When you look at the fuss
1:31:08 > 1:31:07created by the shooting dead of the wonderful line in Zimbabwe, the
1:31:08 > 1:31:07dentist from America who do you get, he says, inadvertently and so
1:31:08 > 1:31:07on. -- lion. There has been a lot of backlash against that kind of
1:31:08 > 1:31:07thing. People are not complacent, are they? If you can open the eyes
1:31:08 > 1:31:07of people against the killing. To kill for sport, for me, I cannot
1:31:08 > 1:31:07really understand it. I don't understand. He killed the wrong...
1:31:08 > 1:31:07One more animal too many. And people started to be aware of that. But
1:31:08 > 1:31:07many things are not ethical as a human being and that is part of it.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07You cannot just be doing a sport and kill an animal. You could have the
1:31:08 > 1:31:07family going on safari and kill and have their picture in the newspaper
1:31:08 > 1:31:07just because, you know, what is on their mind? We are part of an
1:31:08 > 1:31:07equilibrium. Animal, nature and human being. One without the other,
1:31:08 > 1:31:07we do not survive. So, why, as a human being, we have the arrogance
1:31:08 > 1:31:07to think we have the right of life and death on nature or animal? You
1:31:08 > 1:31:07told the BBC a couple of years ago that you do not have children. You
1:31:08 > 1:31:07have two Macdonald instead. You said, actually... And a cat as well.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07-- two dogs instead. You said, why should I bring children into a life
1:31:08 > 1:31:07like this? Is said that I2016 1 billion people will be without water
1:31:08 > 1:31:07and that people will be killing one another for water. -- you said that
1:31:08 > 1:31:07by 2016. Are you not been too much of a pessimist and underestimating
1:31:08 > 1:31:07human beings' capacity to adapt too difficult circumstances? If you call
1:31:08 > 1:31:07it to adapt to kill each other to have some food or water... That may
1:31:08 > 1:31:07not actually happen. You are being very pessimistic. I didn't invent
1:31:08 > 1:31:07it. Many scientists have drifted for many years. -- proved. We are
1:31:08 > 1:31:07spoiling the earth thinking that it is never ending. The resources. And
1:31:08 > 1:31:07it is ending. We are 7.5 billion people here. In a few years time we
1:31:08 > 1:31:07will be 10 billion. Already, with the numbers we have we cannot feed
1:31:08 > 1:31:07everybody. We are just going on, had against the wall, not wanting to see
1:31:08 > 1:31:07what is going to happen. -- head. You have said that activism will be
1:31:08 > 1:31:07something you do more of when you stop dancing but do you know that
1:31:08 > 1:31:07Margot Fonteyn retired at 60, you are only 50. Would it be possible
1:31:08 > 1:31:07that you make a comeback for your legs of fans out there? No. I do not
1:31:08 > 1:31:07think so. -- leagues. I decided that the way I am doing it, the
1:31:08 > 1:31:07motivation I have, that is going to be it this time. Sylvie Guillem,
1:31:08 > 1:31:07thankyou very much for coming HARDtalk. Thank you. -- coming on.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07It looks like we'll be starting the new week
1:31:08 > 1:31:07Slightly more showers dotted around, the satellite sequence showing more
1:31:08 > 1:31:07cloud dotted around the UK to end the weekend.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07This brings heavy showers in the south overnight.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07It is also, all that cloud is helping to keep the temperatures up.
1:31:08 > 1:31:07Overall, it will be an unsettled day, with some heavy showers dotted
1:31:08 > 1:31:08around, and come the afternoon it will begin to feel a bit fresher