:00:00. > :00:00.Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:07. > :00:09.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:10. > :00:12.Africa's wildlife is one of the wonders of the natural world,
:00:13. > :00:15.but the fate of the continent's elephants, rhinos and big cats
:00:16. > :00:24.Illegal poaching could see these great species disappear
:00:25. > :00:31.My guest today is Richard Leakey, chairman of the Kenya Wildlife
:00:32. > :00:40.He also happens to be a world-famous palaeontologist whose life story
:00:41. > :00:42.reads like an implausible movie script.
:00:43. > :00:45.The question is - will his fight for Africa's endangered wildlife
:00:46. > :01:19.You know, there is an adage, a saying which goes like this:
:01:20. > :01:24.And yet you have decided to go back, to run and be the chairman
:01:25. > :01:27.of the Kenya Wildlife Service so many years after you did that job
:01:28. > :01:33.Well, I go by a different philosophy.
:01:34. > :01:37.If you do a job and you do it reasonably well, and it gets messed
:01:38. > :01:41.up, if you can go back and tidy it up again, why not?
:01:42. > :01:43.I mean, get it back to what you wanted.
:01:44. > :01:47.I think wildlife in Kenya isn't in very good shape at the moment
:01:48. > :01:50.but I don't think it is rocket science to get it right.
:01:51. > :01:53.And when the President of the Republic asked me "go back,"
:01:54. > :02:00.I said, "well, I'll try it for three years, yes,
:02:01. > :02:07.You took over in the late '80s when poaching was at a pitch
:02:08. > :02:10.and the elephant population was going down, and there
:02:11. > :02:14.You took drastic measures, militarised the ranger service
:02:15. > :02:21.It appeared you had got on top of the problem.
:02:22. > :02:25.I think what went wrong is that to head up an organisation
:02:26. > :02:28.like the Kenya Wildlife Service, you have got to have
:02:29. > :02:32.You've got to have the ability to pass over the heads of people
:02:33. > :02:36.who are getting in your way, and you've got to be able to deal
:02:37. > :02:40.And because I had access to President Moi, I was able
:02:41. > :02:46.And I was able to clean up the new organisation,
:02:47. > :02:49.and it was very efficient, very effective, and it worked.
:02:50. > :02:51.Corruption, venality, laziness crept back in,
:02:52. > :03:04.Now it is rampant. But can it be cleaned up?
:03:05. > :03:10.If I get the right new director, which I hope I will do in the next
:03:11. > :03:13.month or two, with a new board I have and with the backing
:03:14. > :03:15.of the government of Kenya, under the President,
:03:16. > :03:19.give me a year and I would think, call me back, it will be fine.
:03:20. > :03:23.I will call you back but let's stick with the present for now.
:03:24. > :03:25.It seems to me you've undertaken an enormous gamble
:03:26. > :03:29.here because you are suggesting to me that the current leadership
:03:30. > :03:31.in Kenya has allowed corruption to slip back in,
:03:32. > :03:33.has allowed the international poaching networks to do
:03:34. > :03:38.What gives you any sort of faith at all that those very same top
:03:39. > :03:41.Everything I've done, I've had backing.
:03:42. > :03:47.And I can call a spade a spade and get away with it.
:03:48. > :03:54.I have every confidence that if I feel the need to encourage
:03:55. > :03:56.the removal of certain people, to put in tough programmes,
:03:57. > :04:05.I'm quite sure of that. Really?
:04:06. > :04:07.Last year, you said, and I'm quoting you,
:04:08. > :04:10."there is no doubt the government knows who the kingpins
:04:11. > :04:14.Corruption and incompetence have allowed the last great wildlife
:04:15. > :04:24.species to be slaughtered," you said.
:04:25. > :04:27."No question, there's high-level protection of individuals who engage
:04:28. > :04:28.in the illegal export of elephant ivory."
:04:29. > :04:32.So, are you prepared to name names to President Kenyatta, for example?
:04:33. > :04:37.To President Kenyatta, I will, but not to you.
:04:38. > :04:42.Well, there's no point raising alarms and things of the kind
:04:43. > :04:45.you want me to do when we can deal with it in another way.
:04:46. > :04:48.Our biggest problem, Stephen, is corruption in the courts,
:04:49. > :04:50.corruption in law enforcement, corruption in prosecution.
:04:51. > :04:53.And this is a situation that goes right across the board in Kenya.
:04:54. > :04:58.The new chief justice has done a lot to clean it up.
:04:59. > :05:01.I think with a new brood of people coming in,
:05:02. > :05:03.younger people, and with a president not interfering himself,
:05:04. > :05:09.I don't know why it hasn't been done sooner.
:05:10. > :05:13.But are you going to put your own integrity on the line here?
:05:14. > :05:17.I mean, are you prepared to walk away if, over the next few months,
:05:18. > :05:20.you don't get the right sort of backing, the right sort
:05:21. > :05:26.Well, let me put it to you this way, when the President persuaded me
:05:27. > :05:29.to take this position, I said to him he was a very
:05:30. > :05:33.courageous man, because of course I will walk away if I can't do it.
:05:34. > :05:36.If I face up to an intolerable situation, as I've done several
:05:37. > :05:39.times in my history, I will state the problem and walk
:05:40. > :05:48.We are talking about "the" problem but we need to be specific.
:05:49. > :05:51.I've seen figures suggesting that anything from hundreds to more
:05:52. > :05:54.than 1,000 elephants are being poached in Kenya every year.
:05:55. > :05:57.What is the actual poaching problem, the scale of it, today?
:05:58. > :06:02.When I made that statement you alluded to earlier on,
:06:03. > :06:12.last year, I think we were losing close to 1,000 elephants a year.
:06:13. > :06:15.And this is in a population of Kenyan elephants of what,
:06:16. > :06:25.Between 30,000 and 35,000, I would think.
:06:26. > :06:28.This year alone, to the month of September, we've lost under 400.
:06:29. > :06:30.The situation has already changed dramatically.
:06:31. > :06:33.And in the last few months we are talking about tens.
:06:34. > :06:35.We are getting back very, very quickly.
:06:36. > :06:37.What was wrong, Stephen, is that the wardens
:06:38. > :06:39.were demoralised, the rangers were demoralised, the vehicles
:06:40. > :06:48.I was asking one senior warden why he wasn't getting cattle out
:06:49. > :06:52.He showed me his vehicales, he had three Land Rovers
:06:53. > :06:56.This can be put right and it is going to be put right
:06:57. > :07:00.You are, last time around when you took over the ranger
:07:01. > :07:03.service as head of the Wildlife Service, you armed them,
:07:04. > :07:06.you trained them, and there were allegations that they used
:07:07. > :07:08.force sometimes beyond the call of duty.
:07:09. > :07:11.I mean, many, many poachers and alleged poachers were shot dead
:07:12. > :07:21.Is that the way you're gonna do it again?
:07:22. > :07:24.I didn't do it then and I wouldn't do it now.
:07:25. > :07:28.When I went in the first time, I made it very clear that
:07:29. > :07:31.if poachers continued to shoot at my men, they were now armed
:07:32. > :07:34.and they would shoot back, and in the first few months we did
:07:35. > :07:38.lose a couple of our men, and we lost about 15-20 poachers.
:07:39. > :07:41.Within the first few months, by 1990, I can't remember the dates,
:07:42. > :07:47.but it was about then, it had stopped.
:07:48. > :07:51.But will your men, you know, in your new regime, will they shoot
:07:52. > :07:55.Stephen, if they are fired upon, they will shoot back.
:07:56. > :07:58.Whether they shoot to kill or shoot to immobilise,
:07:59. > :08:12.But there is no point running away from people who are absolutely
:08:13. > :08:14.destroying the natural heritage of our country.
:08:15. > :08:17.In the end, this isn't just about a supply problem, is it?
:08:18. > :08:23.You have to, as part of your overall package solutions to the poaching
:08:24. > :08:26.problem, you have to try to stop China and other countries so eager
:08:27. > :08:29.to import ivory and the rhino horn for their domestic consumption.
:08:30. > :08:34.At the moment, I think Kenya is in more difficulty
:08:35. > :08:37.by being a transit station for ivory from elsewhere in Africa.
:08:38. > :08:39.The number of our elephants killed is relatively small.
:08:40. > :08:41.In neighbouring Tanzania they have a terrible problem.
:08:42. > :08:47.We have had the minister responsible on the programme and I put him
:08:48. > :08:49.all of the allegations about corruption inside his country,
:08:50. > :08:52.with the police and judiciary, all allegedly involved
:08:53. > :09:03.What we've discovered is that ivory has become a commodity
:09:04. > :09:06.and the dealings in ivory have been infiltrated by criminal syndicates.
:09:07. > :09:09.As they have for child export and as they have with drugs
:09:10. > :09:13.And the people who are now controlling it are criminals outside
:09:14. > :09:15.Kenya, often with huge sources of money.
:09:16. > :09:17.They've bought the judges, they've bought the prosecutors,
:09:18. > :09:19.they've bought the police, they've bought the authorities.
:09:20. > :09:22.Now, at this stage, my charge is to stop the killing
:09:23. > :09:32.I must work very closely with others to stop Kenya being used
:09:33. > :09:39.I think we can do that given the connections that I have
:09:40. > :09:43.Well, let me put it bluntly, do you think neighbouring
:09:44. > :09:45.governments have the right level of commitment?
:09:46. > :09:52.But if they can't export their ivory through Kenya, and I think
:09:53. > :09:54.that we can control, then I think the situation
:09:55. > :09:59.You know, it's talked about that within a couple of generations,
:10:00. > :10:03.if the scale of poaching continues on the scale it's been for the last
:10:04. > :10:06.five years, we could see the African elephant disappear,
:10:07. > :10:13.I think at the moment, no, for elephants.
:10:14. > :10:15.I think they'll disappear from some countries.
:10:16. > :10:17.I think black rhino may in some countries.
:10:18. > :10:19.But there is still a lot of elephant.
:10:20. > :10:22.When I started KWS, we were 17,000 elephants.
:10:23. > :10:25.We are now 35,000, despite a lot of poaching.
:10:26. > :10:29.We counted our ivory the other day and we found that we had 137 tons,
:10:30. > :10:39.But there are still no examples I have seen going around
:10:40. > :10:44.in the parks where elephants hear a vehicle and run away.
:10:45. > :10:46.They're still very, very placid, which is a very good sign
:10:47. > :10:57.A final thought on ivory, then I want to move on.
:10:58. > :11:00.You've just said we have 130 tons of ivory, worth a vast amount
:11:01. > :11:02.of money, in your Kenyan government's stores.
:11:03. > :11:06.One of the arguments about the ivory trade is that it's very confusing
:11:07. > :11:08.and very easy for the traders to continue their work
:11:09. > :11:10.because there is this so-called legal ivory,
:11:11. > :11:13.that is, historic ivory, as well as the poached,
:11:14. > :11:19.The best way of ending that confusion is to destroy your
:11:20. > :11:30.If you remember, we destroyed a lot of ivory when I started KWS.
:11:31. > :11:34.The ivory we have today, far more than I expected to find
:11:35. > :11:40.It has been stated to be the case by the President,
:11:41. > :11:44.supported by the Cabinet and the Government, and at the right
:11:45. > :11:47.time, the full 137 tons will be put to the torch and destroyed to ash.
:11:48. > :11:53.That is an absolute guarantee? Absolute promise.
:11:54. > :11:56.Very good. Alright.
:11:57. > :12:01.Because your career, your life story, is extraordinary.
:12:02. > :12:03.You were born to famous palaeontologist parents in Kenya.
:12:04. > :12:11.And this has always interested people, whether you feel completely
:12:12. > :12:14.African in the way that, you know, black Kenyans feel completely
:12:15. > :12:16.committed to their country and their continent.
:12:17. > :12:26.Just try and explain to me how you have always seen yourself?
:12:27. > :12:30.I can't explain why it is but the only people who don't
:12:31. > :12:32.think I am an African are usually white people.
:12:33. > :12:35.I've been totally accepted as an African, and as a Kenyan.
:12:36. > :12:38.As you well know, I've got into politics, I've got
:12:39. > :12:40.into all sorts of situations, which you couldn't do
:12:41. > :12:48.Do you think in English or in Swahili?
:12:49. > :12:53.Absolutely? Absolutely.
:12:54. > :12:55.And if we think about the extroadinary things you have
:12:56. > :12:58.done in palaeontology, and I am thinking now
:12:59. > :13:02.about the discovery of the skull of the boy which told us so much
:13:03. > :13:05.new about the origins of homo sapiens, you always made a point
:13:06. > :13:08.of saying that for you the discovery mattered partly for ideological
:13:09. > :13:11.reasons because it was a way of explaining to fellow Kenyans,
:13:12. > :13:13.fellow Africans, that, in your view, evolution was now proven,
:13:14. > :13:18.that Darwin was right, and that they should understand,
:13:19. > :13:20.Africans should all understand that the notions of God,
:13:21. > :13:30.of tribal myth, couldn't trump science and rationality.
:13:31. > :13:33.You're opening a Pandora's box but let me comment on some
:13:34. > :13:41.I think the Turkana Boy, not the skeleton, which was found
:13:42. > :13:44.in 1984, went a long way to persuading not just Africans,
:13:45. > :13:47.but Europeans and Chinese and Americans, who are much more
:13:48. > :13:50.in the camp of fundamentalism than Kenyans are, that
:13:51. > :13:54.here was evidence that at least 1.5 million years ago there was a full
:13:55. > :13:56.skeleton that you or anyone who wasn't a specialist
:13:57. > :14:08.It was embedded in rock that could clearly be dated.
:14:09. > :14:11.You know, in Turkana now, for the second year they've had
:14:12. > :14:14.a festival with close to 5,000 Turkana and other Kenyans attending.
:14:15. > :14:16.The festival is entitled: "Welcome home, the cradle of humanity."
:14:17. > :14:20.Now this is one of the greatest assets Turkana considers it has,
:14:21. > :14:22.and I think Africa is beginning to recognise that our
:14:23. > :14:27.I think we're beginning to realise that blue-eyed guys like you,
:14:28. > :14:29.and Scandinavians and people from all over the world,
:14:30. > :14:31.actually are part of the African diaspora.
:14:32. > :14:53.But you want the lesson to go even further.
:14:54. > :14:55.You said, it is important to educate boys
:14:56. > :15:06.and girls in the developing world that their destiny belongs to them.
:15:07. > :15:10.It won't be decided by a god, it will be decided by their knowledge
:15:11. > :15:13.and their commitment to build the planet.
:15:14. > :15:15.Do you feel that approach to life, sort of a philosophy,
:15:16. > :15:18.a rational philosophy of life, is making inroads
:15:19. > :15:26.I think it's slow but it's coming and we are beginning to recognise
:15:27. > :15:29.that our problems with disease, HIV, ebola, crop pathogens,
:15:30. > :15:41.these have been caused by new things that have evolved and changed.
:15:42. > :15:46.And the only science is going to deal with them.
:15:47. > :15:51.We have our young scientists, we have our laboratories,
:15:52. > :15:54.and we recognise this is the way to tackle the future rather
:15:55. > :15:56.than the relying on aid from other countries.
:15:57. > :16:00.We are a long way from where I want to be, but I think it is coming
:16:01. > :16:05.And I think more and more young people are beginning to recognise
:16:06. > :16:08.that we cannot expect the British for Americans or Chinese
:16:09. > :16:11.to constantly bail us out of our own problems.
:16:12. > :16:19.I would not want to be temporary second these challenges are easy. --
:16:20. > :16:21.would not want to pretend for a second that these challenges.
:16:22. > :16:24.It comes down to this very personal issue of the degree
:16:25. > :16:27.to which you are working from the inside or the degree
:16:28. > :16:30.to which for some Kenyans sometimes see you like an outsider.
:16:31. > :16:33.I have seen no sign of that, either favourable or negative.
:16:34. > :16:37.You have talked yourself to the degree to which some
:16:38. > :16:40.of the things you have said, particularly about the wildlife
:16:41. > :16:43.issue in Kenya, you have had people out to kill you.
:16:44. > :16:45.If you pick on criminals in England, you don't think
:16:46. > :16:48.they are looking for ways to get even with you?
:16:49. > :16:53.If you're fingered and you lose your career or your source of money,
:16:54. > :16:56.You're not unpopular because you're white,
:16:57. > :16:59.you're unpopular because you pulled the plug on their scheme.
:17:00. > :17:09.It would happen here just as easily. I haven't been picked on as somebody
:17:10. > :17:10.who is white. I have been picked on as
:17:11. > :17:13.an individual who said, enough is enough, stop stealing
:17:14. > :17:15.the resources of the country. People do not know your
:17:16. > :17:18.incredible life story. They will not know that you lost
:17:19. > :17:21.both of your legs in a plane Your light aircraft,
:17:22. > :17:27.the engine cut out. You have always said you believe
:17:28. > :17:31.that plane was sabotaged. I have no proof that it was not
:17:32. > :17:37.and I have no proof it was. I have always said, what happened
:17:38. > :17:39.happened and we need I still have reasonable grounds
:17:40. > :17:43.for thinking it was interfered with. But you, in your own mind, think you
:17:44. > :17:52.know who is responsible? And remember, my legs could have
:17:53. > :18:12.lost me, and they didn't. The point remains, I suppose,
:18:13. > :18:19.bringing it back to your life's work at the moment, which is all
:18:20. > :18:22.about conservation and wildlife, there are people working alongside
:18:23. > :18:24.you, a lot of Kenyans You have warned them that they, too,
:18:25. > :18:31.must expect to face real It is reality, but it
:18:32. > :18:39.should not be overstated. I think you can probably do far more
:18:40. > :18:46.now than you could, 30 years ago. You still say there are a lot
:18:47. > :18:50.of rotten people at the very heart Do you not think there are a lot
:18:51. > :19:06.of people in America or Canada, or France, or even -
:19:07. > :19:10.I don't know about this sacred There are a lot of people
:19:11. > :19:13.in public life everywhere. At our situation of development,
:19:14. > :19:16.some of them would use rougher But we cannot sit back,
:19:17. > :19:20.we have to fight back. Listen, do you realise how few
:19:21. > :19:24.terrorist attacks we have had compareds to how many
:19:25. > :19:26.there might have been? Kenya is really doing its utmost
:19:27. > :19:29.to prevent the fundamentalist You have no idea what efforts have
:19:30. > :19:34.been made to sustain a free That is an optimistic
:19:35. > :19:40.message to take away. Just one other thing I want to put
:19:41. > :19:44.to you before we finish - which is not the enemies you might
:19:45. > :19:47.have made among those nefarious to smill make a living out
:19:48. > :19:59.of poaching, you have at least made enemies, within the conservation
:20:00. > :20:03.movement for somethng that has been discussed of late inside Kenya
:20:04. > :20:05.and in Tanzania as well, which is the future
:20:06. > :20:08.of the Serengeti, and the idea that built across this wonderful national
:20:09. > :20:12.park, because resources need to travel from central
:20:13. > :20:17.Africa to the coast. You support the construction
:20:18. > :20:19.of an elevated highway, right across one
:20:20. > :20:21.of the most precious pieces of wild territory
:20:22. > :20:23.in all of Africa. Because if you are going to develop
:20:24. > :20:35.Tanzania the way it is developing, with a new port going in,
:20:36. > :20:39.one of the biggest ports in East Africa, if you are going
:20:40. > :20:41.to develop seaports on Lake Victoria, huge ones,
:20:42. > :20:44.and have cities of several million people, how will you get
:20:45. > :20:49.the produce out? If we take the initiative
:20:50. > :20:52.and say let's put it up, so the animals can
:20:53. > :21:04.go underneath, we can The point is you have to build that.
:21:05. > :21:05.There is the resources required, the expense, and also the disruption.
:21:06. > :21:08.I have been lucky enough to see the wildebeest migration...
:21:09. > :21:14.All of the experts, one says the cost of this alone will be ten
:21:15. > :21:20.It will be so disruptive, we cannot let it happen.
:21:21. > :21:24.If it costs 50 times or 100 times, it has to be done
:21:25. > :21:34.to save the Serengeti's ecosystem, which affects Tanzanias,
:21:35. > :21:36.-- Tanzanians, Kenyans, and ultimately is our global
:21:37. > :21:39.You cannot allow a parliament in Tanzania ten years from now
:21:40. > :21:42.to say that economically we have to do it.
:21:43. > :21:45.We have two start the process of winning friends, now.
:21:46. > :21:47.There are miles of highways in America, in Europe.
:21:48. > :21:55.What is wrong with putting a road up, if the animals can
:21:56. > :22:02.Most of the conservationists, most of the people involved
:22:03. > :22:04.in engineering projects across the world, have looked
:22:05. > :22:09.Everything that has worked in the world, that has been
:22:10. > :22:11.ambitious and dramatic, there have been thousands
:22:12. > :22:22.I say, get off your rear end, we will lose
:22:23. > :22:29.We must find out how we can sustain the ecology,
:22:30. > :22:31.the wildlife migration, the integrity of the park,
:22:32. > :22:41.highway, and provide effective, efficient transportation.
:22:42. > :22:48.And this makes me smile even thinking about it.
:22:49. > :22:51.There are plans afoot, led by Angelina Jolie,
:22:52. > :22:58.Her husband, Brad Pitt, is mooted to be the young Richard
:22:59. > :23:09.If somebody could produce a film in which people of reputation
:23:10. > :23:13.starred and if the Richard Leakey played by Brad Pitt said,
:23:14. > :23:17."enough killing of elephants, Chinese must not use ivory,"
:23:18. > :23:20.and Angelina Jolie said the same thing, that has far more impact
:23:21. > :23:24.than if Richard Leakey were to say the same thing.
:23:25. > :23:30.It is based on your book, Wildlife Wars.
:23:31. > :23:33.Is this a war to save Africa's wildlife that you believe
:23:34. > :23:38.We have to save the planet, not just in East Africa,
:23:39. > :23:41.but we have got to stop the killing of the rhino,
:23:42. > :23:45.And we have to have something that everybody cares
:23:46. > :23:50.We need to have a heritage that everybody cares for.
:23:51. > :23:55.If you can kill the market, and China is a big market,
:23:56. > :23:59.and I think powerful Hollywood films could change a lot of attitudes.
:24:00. > :24:03.You were talking about the market. That is a way to do it. Burning
:24:04. > :24:04.ivory is another way. We might not succeed,
:24:05. > :24:10.but if we did not think we might,