:00:00. > :00:15.Why are so many mostly young Palestinians intent on killing
:00:16. > :00:21.Israeli Jews with whatever weapons they can lay their hands on?
:00:22. > :00:24.The Israeli government blames the surge in violence on
:00:25. > :00:28.hate-fuelled incitement sanctioned by the Palestinian authorities.
:00:29. > :00:31.The Palestinians say it is a response to the intolerable
:00:32. > :00:41.My guest today is the veteran Palestinian negotiator and secretary
:00:42. > :01:19.Is a new wave of extremism sweeping the West Bank and Gaza?
:01:20. > :01:22.Saeb Erekat in Ramallah, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:23. > :01:33.Thank you, Stephen. According to the Israelis, more than 40 Palestinians
:01:34. > :01:39.have been killed while in the process of committing attacks, acts
:01:40. > :01:45.of violence, on Israeli Jewish people. They, the Israelis, call
:01:46. > :01:56.them terrorists. What do you call these attackers? I call them dead
:01:57. > :02:01.Palestinians who lost hope, but Netanyahu told as young Palestinians
:02:02. > :02:08.that a Palestinian state would not be on his watch, not in his time,
:02:09. > :02:11.that he would deprive them of their future, that he would deprive them
:02:12. > :02:17.of any security for their jobs, for their lives, that they would remain
:02:18. > :02:23.under his occupation. And so despair has remained under once you take the
:02:24. > :02:26.hope outside of the minds of people, what did you expect? I think that
:02:27. > :02:33.Netanyahu should look in the mirror. We will talk about those
:02:34. > :02:38.policies but I do want to focus for a moment on the Palestinians who are
:02:39. > :02:43.committing these acts and the reaction of Palestinian society to
:02:44. > :02:46.those people. There are many officials inside the Palestinian
:02:47. > :02:51.Authority who have used the word heroes and martyrs about those
:02:52. > :02:55.young, mostly young people, who have been wielding the knives and other
:02:56. > :03:03.weapons as well. Do you use those words? Heroes and martyrs? Well,
:03:04. > :03:07.these are our sons and grandsons and I really could care less what you
:03:08. > :03:13.want to call them or not, Stephen. But it matters. Surely, it matters
:03:14. > :03:21.what you call them. No, what matters is why such people do such things.
:03:22. > :03:24.Who took the hope from their minds? Who is telling them in Israel that
:03:25. > :03:29.they have no hope and no future whatsoever? You know, Stephen, I
:03:30. > :03:33.don't condone violence and the killing of civilians, be they
:03:34. > :03:38.Israelis or Palestinians. We have tried for 20 years to achieve
:03:39. > :03:42.peace. We have tried for 20 years to restore Hope in the minds of
:03:43. > :03:47.Palestinians and Israelis. And then came this Israeli government,
:03:48. > :03:49.Stephen, that destroyed the possibility of a two-state solution
:03:50. > :03:54.and destroy hope in the minds of Palestinians. In fact, we have an
:03:55. > :03:57.Israeli Prime Minister who is so proud of telling Palestinians that
:03:58. > :04:02.your state is not on my watch, not in my time. The question is,
:04:03. > :04:05.Stephen, what if your sons were under the Israeli occupation? What
:04:06. > :04:09.if they were deprived of the right web jobs, dignity, a future like you
:04:10. > :04:16.and your sons? What would they do? What would they do? That is the
:04:17. > :04:21.question. This occupation is the source of evil. This occupation is
:04:22. > :04:25.the source of desperation. I condemn the continuation of this occupation
:04:26. > :04:29.and I contend those who support this occupation because at the end of the
:04:30. > :04:32.day, we're Palestinians killed, we have Israelis killed, and the only
:04:33. > :04:37.answer to these killing fields out there is not more violence but to
:04:38. > :04:39.provide for a solution of a Palestinian state to live
:04:40. > :04:45.side-by-side with the state of Israel in peace and security. That
:04:46. > :04:49.is the only answer. Understood. Your condemnation of the occupation is on
:04:50. > :04:56.the record. And you are just said to me that the only long-term solution
:04:57. > :04:59.has to be Israel and the Palestinian state living side-by-side. If you
:05:00. > :05:05.are serious about that, you have to surely address the Western right now
:05:06. > :05:09.of incitement. -- question. Because the Israeli public believe that the
:05:10. > :05:13.Palestinian Authority and certainly Hamas in Gaza as well are allowing
:05:14. > :05:19.and creating an atmosphere where incitement thrives. You will know
:05:20. > :05:22.better than I that just a few days ago, the Israeli UN Ambassador stood
:05:23. > :05:27.up at the UN and brandished an instructional card that he said was
:05:28. > :05:41.circulating in Palestinian schools, which had a diagram and a title how
:05:42. > :05:45.to start -- stab a Jewish person. How can that happen? I'm not saying
:05:46. > :05:47.that we are free of incitement. I'm not saying that we are doing
:05:48. > :05:51.everything in accordance with what we want to do. But Stephen, you had
:05:52. > :05:57.last week the Prime Minister of Israel absolving Adolf Hitler and
:05:58. > :06:00.blaming the genocide and the Holocaust and the most evil chapter
:06:01. > :06:04.of human history which took place at the hands of the Nazis on the
:06:05. > :06:09.Palestinians, which meant that this kind of incitement, he is telling
:06:10. > :06:13.Israelis, their Prime Minister, he is telling Israelis that you should
:06:14. > :06:20.hate Palestinians more than Nazis. Is the Israeli settlers two months
:06:21. > :06:25.ago who burned the family of the 18 months toddler, you talk about this
:06:26. > :06:32.wave of violence... 74 Palestinians were killed and 2200 Palestinians,
:06:33. > :06:36.they were wounded. Homes are being demolished. People are being
:06:37. > :06:40.ethnically cleansed from their homes. People are losing their
:06:41. > :06:48.security and their lives. This is our situation. This is how we live,
:06:49. > :06:52.Stephen. It is my job to... I'm not saying that we don't... It is my job
:06:53. > :06:56.to challenge senior Israeli politicians, as I have been doing,
:06:57. > :06:59.on many of the issues that you have just raised but by W is not to talk
:07:00. > :07:04.about what the Israelis are doing, because maybe many of my audience
:07:05. > :07:06.can guess what you think about that, my job with you is to
:07:07. > :07:11.challenge you on what the Palestinians are doing. And so I
:07:12. > :07:15.returned to the question of wide TV and radio stations in Palestinian
:07:16. > :07:20.territories are appearing to encourage these stabbing attacks and
:07:21. > :07:24.hailing as heroes those who carry out these attacks? If the
:07:25. > :07:33.Palestinian Authority is to mean anything, you surely have to control
:07:34. > :07:39.the incitement. OK... I told you, Stephen, we're not perfect. There
:07:40. > :07:45.may be some incitement. You are telling me that Palestinian TV and
:07:46. > :07:49.Israel TV and Palestine radio... These are our sons and our grandsons
:07:50. > :07:53.and we want them to live and have a future. I don't want my son to die,
:07:54. > :07:57.I want him to live. I don't want my son to be a suicide bomber,
:07:58. > :08:01.Stephen. But what using to challenge me with is that you want me to live
:08:02. > :08:05.and you want my son to live and my grandson to live under occupation,
:08:06. > :08:10.seeing his hope is taken away, seeing his future taken away, seeing
:08:11. > :08:14.more settlements landed on what is supposed to be the Palestinian
:08:15. > :08:19.state, seeing that there is no dignity and future for us, and you
:08:20. > :08:22.want people to behave and say to the Israelis, oh, Masters! You are doing
:08:23. > :08:26.a good job with the settlements and dictations and the killing fields
:08:27. > :08:31.and using medical supplies and food supplies against the people of
:08:32. > :08:35.Gaza. This is what happens here. But here is what I'm trying to get
:08:36. > :08:40.at... Stephen, if it Israel is doing well being done by any country on
:08:41. > :08:45.earth, believe me that no one would sleep in London or Washington or
:08:46. > :08:52.Berlin or Rome. No one would allow it to happen. This silence of yours
:08:53. > :08:56.in the West, this must stop. This tolerance to the Israeli occupation,
:08:57. > :08:58.to the Israeli policies, to the Israeli war crimes being committed
:08:59. > :09:04.against the Palestinian people, this should stop. But I tell you what. We
:09:05. > :09:10.want to live. We want our grandchildren to live. I hear that,
:09:11. > :09:12.but... No farther, no mother wants to bury their children. They love
:09:13. > :09:17.them as much as you love your children. But I'm trying to look at
:09:18. > :09:21.the... This is the situation. I'm trying to look at the... I was 12
:09:22. > :09:27.years old when the Israeli occupation happened. In Jericho. I'm
:09:28. > :09:33.60 years old today. Let me get a word in. I have grandchildren. This
:09:34. > :09:36.must stop. Let me get a word in, if I may stop it does not really matter
:09:37. > :09:43.whether you think that I'm demanding you condemn things or not. What I
:09:44. > :09:46.say does not really matter but what matters a lot is how the
:09:47. > :09:54.international community is currently regarding the Palestinians. Angela
:09:55. > :09:57.Merkel just the other day said: The Palestinians must condemn everything
:09:58. > :10:01.that constitutes support of terrorism. This is a key player in
:10:02. > :10:06.the international community, somebody that you want on your side.
:10:07. > :10:11.It is nothing to do with me. People like Angela Merkel want to hear
:10:12. > :10:15.clear condemnation and resultant action from your Palestinian
:10:16. > :10:22.Authority to ensure that you are seen to be combating incitement.
:10:23. > :10:27.Well, I'm sure that Angela Merkel, who I have met many times and who I
:10:28. > :10:34.had the greatest respect for, she knows as well as you do, Stephen, as
:10:35. > :10:40.much as Mr Cameron, Mr Obama, Mr Harman, they all know that we
:10:41. > :10:42.recognise the right of Israel to exist in peace and prosperity along
:10:43. > :10:47.the lines of the 19th seven agreement. And she knows that the
:10:48. > :10:50.side that is obstructing the two-state solution and that is
:10:51. > :10:54.dictating more settlements and more dictations and more killing fields
:10:55. > :10:59.and what humiliation to the Alice Unions are the Israelis. I think
:11:00. > :11:03.that she should condemn the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin
:11:04. > :11:06.Netanyahu. We are defending ourselves while Israel is defending
:11:07. > :11:11.its occupation, while Israel is defending its settlement. Israel is
:11:12. > :11:14.not defending itself, Stephen. This is the message from me to all those
:11:15. > :11:19.who have some conscience, some values. We are defending our way of
:11:20. > :11:24.life. We are defending our children. We don't want them to
:11:25. > :11:27.die. And as I said, I don't condone the killing of civilians, whether
:11:28. > :11:32.they are Israelis or Palestinians, but we need to get to the source of
:11:33. > :11:36.this situation. Let me ask you a few questions or else it won't be an
:11:37. > :11:39.interview. You say that the worst is still to come but it seems that
:11:40. > :11:44.right now, in the territories, yet again, Hamas is driving the agenda
:11:45. > :11:46.now. Talk to any analyst of Palestinian politics and they will
:11:47. > :11:52.say that the current surge in violence is yet again playing into
:11:53. > :11:59.the political agenda of Hamas. You know, Stephen, what is happening out
:12:00. > :12:05.there is very deep. I challenge any Palestinian, any political party, to
:12:06. > :12:08.say that we are organising what is happening outside. Things are
:12:09. > :12:13.slipping outside our hands. I'm not saying you are, I'm saying Hamas.
:12:14. > :12:17.Believe me... If you look at what is coming out of the mosques, if you
:12:18. > :12:20.listen to the Hamas political leadership, they violence to
:12:21. > :12:25.increase. Lazy political gain in turning this into what they call the
:12:26. > :12:31.intifada of knives. -- they see. Turning it into a full-scale
:12:32. > :12:36.intifada. Well, once again, Stephen, what is going out there is
:12:37. > :12:40.a very deep thing. It is a new development. I have never seen such
:12:41. > :12:46.developments before. All I'm telling you is that Palestinians are giving
:12:47. > :12:53.up on me and people like me and people who promised them 20 years
:12:54. > :12:57.ago. I told my people that we would stop violence and we would not use
:12:58. > :12:59.any act of violence, that we recognised the state of Israel and
:13:00. > :13:04.we would get independence through negotiations, and they believed us.
:13:05. > :13:09.They gave us all the time in the world. For 23 years! What they're
:13:10. > :13:15.telling me now is that we have 200,000 settlers in 1993. Today, we
:13:16. > :13:21.have 600,000 settlers. That is the result of your peace process. That
:13:22. > :13:25.is your negotiation. Which is precisely... That is what is going
:13:26. > :13:30.on out there. Hang on. I have to stop you... The only way. The only
:13:31. > :13:36.way... If I may finish, the only way to begin a DS can of the conflict is
:13:37. > :13:40.to restore Hope in the minds of Palestinians. What you are saying to
:13:41. > :13:43.me is both very interesting and very frank and full of passion and I hear
:13:44. > :13:51.that passion but what you essentially saying to me is that you
:13:52. > :13:55.and Mahmoud Abbas and others lost, that Oslo is dead, that the
:13:56. > :13:56.two-state solution in the minds of most Palestinians has died. Is that
:13:57. > :14:18.it? Stephen, it breaks my heart to say
:14:19. > :14:23.yes. You know what? 23 years ago, President Mahmoud Abbas, myself and
:14:24. > :14:28.many others told Palestinians please do not despair, you are not alone.
:14:29. > :14:32.We have to renounce violence, we have to stop using violence. We have
:14:33. > :14:38.to use negotiations as the tool. And what have I delivered to these
:14:39. > :14:44.people, 22 years later? As I told you, people see with our eyes.
:14:45. > :14:49.600,000 settlers. And there is supposed to be a Palestinian state.
:14:50. > :14:52.Benjamin Netanyahu has managed to succeed in destroying people like
:14:53. > :14:55.me, and making people like me, the moderates, the people who recognise
:14:56. > :14:58.the state of Israel, the people who want to live and let live, the
:14:59. > :15:02.people who want to save the lives of Israelis and Palestinians, yes, he
:15:03. > :15:08.won over us. He defeated us. He won with his camp of those who don't see
:15:09. > :15:12.us, and refuse to see us, and they only see their occupation, their
:15:13. > :15:16.settlements, dedication. And they believe that if they ignore facts,
:15:17. > :15:19.it could be as if it doesn't exist. What exist today is that Mr
:15:20. > :15:24.Netanyahu, I hope you are listening to me. Look in my eyes. Walk me
:15:25. > :15:28.through the day after you managed to destroy the two state solution. You
:15:29. > :15:32.managed to destroy hope. Does this bring you security or peace? Does
:15:33. > :15:36.this bring you and the Palestinians peace and security? What have you
:15:37. > :15:41.done? Where have you taken us, and to those... Only Netanyahu can
:15:42. > :15:47.answer those questions directly and I hope to have the opportunity to
:15:48. > :15:52.put those questions to him. What I need to ask you, is given what you
:15:53. > :15:56.have just said to me, what are you going to do? You're not going to
:15:57. > :15:59.walk away. You spent 23 years on this and you've never walked away.
:16:00. > :16:04.So I assume you're never going to walk away now. Mahmoud Abbas is 80
:16:05. > :16:08.years old. You are appreciably younger. There is a question of
:16:09. > :16:13.where the Palestinian leadership goes from here. I have just looked
:16:14. > :16:17.at a poll done by one of the most respected Palestinian polling
:16:18. > :16:21.organisations. Nearly two thirds of Palestinians want Mahmoud Abbas to
:16:22. > :16:27.resign. They do feel he has had his day. So watch the Palestinians do
:16:28. > :16:31.now? Are you interested in taking over the leadership if not you,
:16:32. > :16:37.who? Because Palestine surely need some new leadership. I think we have
:16:38. > :16:43.a new leadership called the Israeli occupation. Mr Netanyahu restarted
:16:44. > :16:49.and re-established his occupying forces, his occupying power. They
:16:50. > :16:55.are all over. Stephen, I am 60. And as I said, Mahmoud Abbas is 80.
:16:56. > :17:02.Those Palestinians who are 60 plus, we are 4% of the population. 94% of
:17:03. > :17:07.the population are telling us what have you brought us? You're right,
:17:08. > :17:12.you're right. I think it's time for us to take the decision. It's time
:17:13. > :17:15.to invite Mr Netanyahu to take over because he is destroying the
:17:16. > :17:18.Palestinian Authority, he is destroying the two state solution,
:17:19. > :17:22.he is destroying hope. And then you begin the question of telling me,
:17:23. > :17:27.why are these kids doing this? Why is this incitement? He destroyed
:17:28. > :17:31.everything. He destroyed hope. Once you destroy the future of people,
:17:32. > :17:36.once you destroy the future of young... Stephen, I have 26%
:17:37. > :17:40.unemployment in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. I cannot compete
:17:41. > :17:49.with Abubakar Albuquerque. The thug and horrible and evil, and he is
:17:50. > :17:53.promising these disparate Arabs 70 virgins. I cannot afford the
:17:54. > :18:01.promised a 1-bedroom apartment. I cannot find a job, because... That
:18:02. > :18:05.is precisely Netanyahu's point. He says there is real evidence that
:18:06. > :18:11.young Palestinians today are behaving in as radical and as
:18:12. > :18:14.extreme fashion as so-called Islamic State -- Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. That
:18:15. > :18:20.is why he plays upon this notion of extraordinarily dangerous terror
:18:21. > :18:26.coming from your territories, and you are in essence saying, you know
:18:27. > :18:31.what? That is Palestine's only option. No, I am not saying that,
:18:32. > :18:36.Stephen. I told you the only option is peace. Nobody benefits more from
:18:37. > :18:39.succeeding in peace more than Palestinians, and no one stands to
:18:40. > :18:47.lose more in the absence of peace more than Palestinians. It is 74
:18:48. > :18:52.Palestinians, young people, young, 13 to 20, have been killed. More
:18:53. > :18:56.than 2000 wounded, mostly maimed for ever. No one stands to lose more in
:18:57. > :19:01.the absence of peace more than us. And that is the truth, Stephen. What
:19:02. > :19:06.I am saying to Mr Netanyahu. Why now? You destroyed hope, you destroy
:19:07. > :19:10.the two state solution, you made more new settlements than any other
:19:11. > :19:14.Prime Minister of Israel. So, can you walk me through the day after?
:19:15. > :19:19.You have made that point. We don't have much more time and you have
:19:20. > :19:23.made that point. Do you see more peace and security and prosperity?
:19:24. > :19:27.Is not in our DNA, he says that we want to kill and be killed and we
:19:28. > :19:32.love violence. We don't want this. We want to live and let live. We
:19:33. > :19:35.want to have good universities, good schools, good jobs, good prospects.
:19:36. > :19:39.We want our children to be the musicians, the physicians, the
:19:40. > :19:46.football players. He is destroying hope. And this occupation is the
:19:47. > :19:51.source of evil. This occupation is the source. We have heard this point
:19:52. > :19:57.from you many times. I need to ask you a couple more questions before
:19:58. > :20:00.we finish, if I may. Preoccupation,... You can say the
:20:01. > :20:04.same things many times but our audience would like to hear a
:20:05. > :20:08.different question. This question is about the internationalisation of
:20:09. > :20:12.the conflict. You personally have been a very, very keen advocate of
:20:13. > :20:17.using the UN route. You have said you know what? The dialogue with the
:20:18. > :20:21.Israelis isn't working. When our to leverage whatever influence we can
:20:22. > :20:25.use at the United Nations and international community to this
:20:26. > :20:29.thing forward. You have made one big effort at the UN Security Council to
:20:30. > :20:33.try and get the council to put a stamp on the two state solution. The
:20:34. > :20:39.Saudi Arab clan stamp on the two state solution. The
:20:40. > :20:43.Saudi Arab plan I think was the basis of it. The Security Council
:20:44. > :20:46.rejected it. You said you wanted to go back to the Security Council and
:20:47. > :20:49.try that route all over again. When are you going to acknowledge that
:20:50. > :20:53.that isn't going to work for you? The Security Council, the UN, they
:20:54. > :20:58.are not ever going to give you what you want. Stephen, imagine if you
:20:59. > :21:05.were to be my son. If you are to be my son. Who is 23 years old. And I
:21:06. > :21:10.am telling you, I cannot get you independence through negotiations. I
:21:11. > :21:13.cannot get a Security Council resolution guaranteeing the right to
:21:14. > :21:18.statehood or the freedom. I cannot get you to go through... To get an
:21:19. > :21:21.investigation committee from international human rights Council
:21:22. > :21:25.to investigate what takes place on the ground. They cannot get you any
:21:26. > :21:32.hope whatsoever that one day it you will be free. Stephen, what would
:21:33. > :21:35.you do? What would you think? Because that is the real tragedy. I
:21:36. > :21:40.will tell you what I would think. Let me answer your question. You
:21:41. > :21:43.asked me a question. I told Palestinians, Stephen, Stephen,
:21:44. > :21:49.please allow me to finish, please hear me. See me, hear me. I was
:21:50. > :21:53.telling Palestinians, please don't despair, please don't use violence.
:21:54. > :21:56.We are going to go to the Security Council and get a resolution for the
:21:57. > :21:59.state. They closed the door on my face. We are going to go to the
:22:00. > :22:02.international human rights Council in Geneva and get an investigation
:22:03. > :22:08.committee. They close the doors in our face. We are going to get you a
:22:09. > :22:10.State through negotiations and Netanyahu close the door in my face.
:22:11. > :22:16.Well, you asked me what I would think. If you asked me that, what
:22:17. > :22:19.would I say? I would say this to you. What I am going to be once
:22:20. > :22:22.again is they that Netanyahu may succeed in destroying the two state
:22:23. > :22:26.solution but four Palestinians and Israelis there is only one option.
:22:27. > :22:31.If not this year, next year, in ten years' time. It is to live and let
:22:32. > :22:34.live, it is a 2 state solution. It is Palestine to live side by side
:22:35. > :22:38.with the State of Israel, along the 1967 lines. That is the only option.
:22:39. > :22:41.I couldn't do it through the Security Council, I can do it
:22:42. > :22:47.through negotiations, not because I failed, because I was foiled by the
:22:48. > :22:50.likes of Bibi Netanyahu. I have interviewed you many times over many
:22:51. > :22:59.years. I have never heard you this bleak, this negative, this
:23:00. > :23:04.despairing. Is it all over for you? You know, if I answer you, if I
:23:05. > :23:09.answer you in anyway I may cause more deaths. I just want to keep a
:23:10. > :23:13.ray of hope. I just want to keep a ray of hope. Because the end of the
:23:14. > :23:16.day violence will breed more violence. Violence is not the
:23:17. > :23:20.answer. I know that the answer is for someone in the international
:23:21. > :23:23.community to bring to the Security Council resolution reiterating the
:23:24. > :23:31.two state solution within a specific time timeframe, within a specific
:23:32. > :23:36.place, on the 1967 lines. Now, if people asked me, how come you
:23:37. > :23:42.failed? I could not deliver, that is the truth. Now, do I leave, I am
:23:43. > :23:45.thinking about it. I am seriously thinking about it, Stephen. I am
:23:46. > :23:49.seriously thinking about it because there is much that I can take from
:23:50. > :23:53.my own family, from my own neighbours. I look them in the eyes,
:23:54. > :24:01.I was unable to deliver. And that is the truth. Saeb Erekat, thank you
:24:02. > :24:25.for being on HARDtalk. We had real mixture of weather
:24:26. > :24:28.in Scotland yesterday.