:00:00. > :00:16.The Syrian city of Raqqa is the self-styled capital
:00:17. > :00:19.for the militants of the so called Islamic State.
:00:20. > :00:24.It is difficult for independent journalists to operate in such
:00:25. > :00:27.situations, but French journalist Nicolas Henin decided to enter Raqqa
:00:28. > :00:29.after militants seized it from Syrian government forces in 2013.
:00:30. > :00:32.He was captured by IS fighters and held for ten months along with
:00:33. > :01:16.What did he learn about the mindset of ISIS militants?
:01:17. > :01:24.Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What made you want to go into Raqqa a few
:01:25. > :01:32.months after it fell to the militants? It wasn't my first trip
:01:33. > :01:36.to Syria. I have been there five times after the beginning of the
:01:37. > :01:49.revolution. But this was the first time that the capital city, because
:01:50. > :01:57.Syria is a federation, was lost by the regime of Bashar al-Assad. It is
:01:58. > :02:01.very different to run a countryside and to run a city because you have
:02:02. > :02:05.to provide a much more public service to the people and the
:02:06. > :02:12.political organisation is very different. I wanted to see how the
:02:13. > :02:17.militants, the opposition, not any opposition, because it wasn't like
:02:18. > :02:22.the regular opposition, the Free Syrian Army, but a coalition of
:02:23. > :02:27.Islamist groups, which took over Raqqa, I wanted to see them running
:02:28. > :02:33.a large city. All right. But after a while it was Islamic State who
:02:34. > :02:38.prevailed in Raqqa. It is now their capital. You knew, surely, when you
:02:39. > :02:43.went in there, there would be a high probability of you being captured or
:02:44. > :02:53.killed. Not at all. At that time there were very few abductions
:02:54. > :02:57.public. The capture in November, the year before, was public. And the
:02:58. > :03:05.abduction, a couple of weeks before, of two French journalists,
:03:06. > :03:10.was public. The others were not known. But you... Knowing the Middle
:03:11. > :03:18.East as you do, use the beautiful Arabic, you have studied the
:03:19. > :03:26.area... -- you speak. You thought you could come out freely? Yeah.
:03:27. > :03:35.Because it was the first time I encountered jihadis. The first time
:03:36. > :03:41.was in Baghdad after the American invasion. You were a bit naive? Not
:03:42. > :03:48.at all. I had, so far, always, a professional distant contact with
:03:49. > :03:55.these people. But, uh, I thought these people had only a domestic
:03:56. > :04:00.agenda. They obviously had a much wider one. As you said, it fell in
:04:01. > :04:07.March. You went in mid June, June the 22nd you were captured, just
:04:08. > :04:15.walking along the street. Why? Well... It is like in a movie. A bad
:04:16. > :04:23.movie. There is a car. People come after the car and grab used. There
:04:24. > :04:28.were masks and weapons. -- grab you. And then they take you to a place
:04:29. > :04:31.that you cannot see anything outside... What was the first
:04:32. > :04:39.thought that came into your head when you were captured? My family.
:04:40. > :04:47.Really? Of course. And then I tried something... I will... I tried after
:04:48. > :04:57.three days to escape. I broke the bars of my cell. I ran in the desert
:04:58. > :05:03.for all the night. And early in the morning I got captured again and
:05:04. > :05:06.taken back to the very same place. Were you punished? I know you were
:05:07. > :05:13.beaten but was that the first occasion? They won't attack me, of
:05:14. > :05:17.course. You have described in the past how, during your captivity, you
:05:18. > :05:22.were freezing a lot of the time, you were starving, you had to wear the
:05:23. > :05:28.same clothes for six months. Very poor sanitation. Just give us an
:05:29. > :05:32.idea of what those months were like. Everything is difficult, of
:05:33. > :05:42.course. One of the most difficult things is probably boredom because
:05:43. > :05:47.you just have nothing to do. , but this being said, and this is what is
:05:48. > :05:58.written here on the back cover of my book. -- Uh,. This is my motto, what
:05:59. > :06:01.I went through was a nightmare, but it is nothing compared to the
:06:02. > :06:07.tragedy being suffered by the people in Syria and Iraq. And this is what
:06:08. > :06:13.inspired me after all of this. I just look at myself, well up yes,
:06:14. > :06:22.obviously, what I have been through was harsh. -- well, yes. But it is
:06:23. > :06:25.nothing compared to the tragedy in the region. But you must have
:06:26. > :06:30.thought that you might be killed. Yeah. This is definitely something
:06:31. > :06:35.that comes in your mind at some point. But you have written jihad
:06:36. > :06:38.academy, this book, because you said you did not want to be just known as
:06:39. > :06:48.a former speech held by Islamic State. -- Jihad Academy. It is part
:06:49. > :06:53.of my therapy. I have been taken for ten months. It is nothing to be
:06:54. > :07:01.proud of. It is a life accident. But, I was not only a victim. Yes, I
:07:02. > :07:05.was a victim. But I kept being a journalist. I kept looking at
:07:06. > :07:15.things. Observing, thinking, trying to understand the motives around and
:07:16. > :07:22.what was going on and who has really be people keeping me. -- is. You
:07:23. > :07:27.were held by several captors. Yeah. A few of them. You were held
:07:28. > :07:38.alongside a number of other Western hostages. Two doesn't. Including
:07:39. > :07:47.some of the ones we know about, David Haines, Steven Sotloff. --
:07:48. > :07:52.dozen. And John Cantlie who is still alive. Some of them killed. But you
:07:53. > :08:00.say you gained insights into the people holding you. What kind? Who
:08:01. > :08:08.were they? It can be difficult to describe them. Because, they... They
:08:09. > :08:16.have different backgrounds. But, generally, they are mostly like
:08:17. > :08:28.street kids. Very... Very persuasive. Uh, they are very good
:08:29. > :08:40.at discussion, uh... Brought up in the? -- West.. Were they fluent?
:08:41. > :08:50.They had accents. I have not seen the passports of any of them that I
:08:51. > :08:56.can assume they are by -- binationals. Maybe European. I don't
:08:57. > :09:01.know. And what insights did you get? You said you never stopped being a
:09:02. > :09:06.journalist. What did you learn about the motivation of them? You say they
:09:07. > :09:13.were like streaky. What is surprising is that most of them have
:09:14. > :09:19.been to Syria in a very genuine way. -- street kids. The thought,
:09:20. > :09:26.genuinely, that they would do, almost like humanitarian actions.
:09:27. > :09:35.--. They went there to protect orphans and widows. -- They. The
:09:36. > :09:43.Syrian people have been killed without reaction from the well.
:09:44. > :09:48.Sorry... Once they arrive then they are turned into actual criminal.
:09:49. > :09:57.What process... What is the process? -- criminals. The idea is
:09:58. > :10:04.to see what happens to them. Not many of them realise that Islamic
:10:05. > :10:13.State... It is all about that. Islamic State cells after a legend.
:10:14. > :10:23.-- sells us a. But we are buying and. Actually, it is a scam. They
:10:24. > :10:28.are saying that they protect the Syrian civilians. -- it. They just
:10:29. > :10:35.imprison them. They say they are working for the sake of Islam while
:10:36. > :10:42.they are insulting Islam everyday. They totally contradict it. And to
:10:43. > :10:51.the world, they like to present themselves as a kind of super
:10:52. > :10:54.organisation. They are not. If you look at the figures, the Syrian
:10:55. > :11:03.regime kills ten times more than Islamic State. The problem is, it is
:11:04. > :11:08.a problem of publicity. Islamic State massively publicises its crime
:11:09. > :11:16.whereas the Syrian regime, while it is protected by a wall of fear, it's
:11:17. > :11:21.just... The captors you talked about, they went in with
:11:22. > :11:25.humanitarian intentions, but some of them become the ones we see
:11:26. > :11:31.beheading... Some of them go in with those intentions... Yeah. But the
:11:32. > :11:39.ones that go in like that, are they the ones that left their Western
:11:40. > :11:53.homes... Were they pretending? I don't know. Then they became these
:11:54. > :12:02.cruel captors? This is just one of their many crimes. There biggest
:12:03. > :12:12.crime is the occupation of Iraq and Syria. Is this because you observed
:12:13. > :12:18.them at close quarters? Did you for a relationship with them? What did
:12:19. > :12:29.you glean from them? No. Very basic. They were not trying to do so. You
:12:30. > :12:38.say in your new book, Jihad Academy, the West cannot take them out
:12:39. > :12:44.without stopping the fire that feeds it. What is that? The main problems
:12:45. > :12:51.with Islamic State is that we are taking them as evil, it is not, it
:12:52. > :12:58.is only the symptoms of the evil. The main problem is
:12:59. > :13:02.authoritarianism, sectarianism, and violence. It is a fresh and. It is
:13:03. > :13:07.like you look to me and say, listen, you have a problem, you have
:13:08. > :13:13.cockroaches all of your kitchen. I go to the kitchen and say, the
:13:14. > :13:21.problem is not cockroaches, it is that your kitchen is dirty. There is
:13:22. > :13:26.fat all over the walls and rotten food everywhere. Basically, we can
:13:27. > :13:30.run after the cockroaches everywhere for years will keep we can just
:13:31. > :13:37.clean up the kitchen. This is the problem. Why can't... Islamic State
:13:38. > :13:45.are only cockroaches. They are not... They're not... I understand.
:13:46. > :13:49.Why not pursue both? Why not try to do something about dismantling the
:13:50. > :13:57.authoritarian regimes as well as this very, very terrible, barbaric
:13:58. > :14:09.side effect as you describe it? Why is it either, or? We are paying very
:14:10. > :14:16.little attention. As soon as the, especially the Iraq Sunnis in the
:14:17. > :14:21.region, if they have hope Islamic State will collapse. We have to help
:14:22. > :14:23.them to establish a political roadmap and to have hope. And to
:14:24. > :14:32.have hope in security. That is what is going on. We have
:14:33. > :14:38.countless meetings in so many cabinets around the world, John
:14:39. > :14:44.Kerry saying you have to have negotiations to make sure that
:14:45. > :14:53.things are... The debate in Vienna was all about Iran joining the talks
:14:54. > :14:59.are not. Iran is key. The Syrians should come. We do not care about
:15:00. > :15:05.Russians, Iranians, Americans, we need to have Syrians. There are
:15:06. > :15:11.talks with the Syrians. What I want to see is not all the powers of the
:15:12. > :15:24.world coming and sitting in a nice palace discussing the future, we
:15:25. > :15:30.were just have another Yalta. Where will we put the boundaries? What
:15:31. > :15:37.will we do with these people? We need to ask these people from
:15:38. > :15:42.their, willing to discuss and set up a political roadmap to come and do
:15:43. > :15:50.that. But for that, they need security. Because violence and
:15:51. > :15:58.repression and the lack of security and especially the bombing is the
:15:59. > :16:02.main cause for radicalisation. In your party said it is the great
:16:03. > :16:05.powers who manufacture the conditions for this nightmare to
:16:06. > :16:10.come true and create the fanatics who willingly set off to fight in a
:16:11. > :16:15.world which is not theirs. It sounds like you are describing a lot of
:16:16. > :16:18.problems as a creation of the West and the fact that these problems
:16:19. > :16:24.continue is also a failure of the West. There is a lot of
:16:25. > :16:28.responsibility of the West. Isn't it the people of these countries, the
:16:29. > :16:39.people of the region, who are most did by what is going on? They are
:16:40. > :16:45.the key for the solution. Talking about the responsibility of the
:16:46. > :16:53.West, it is useless to just blame ourselves for nothing. Let us just
:16:54. > :16:59.identify, we Westerners made mistakes that are the roots of ISIS.
:17:00. > :17:06.The first being the condition of Iraq and not listening to the Syrian
:17:07. > :17:12.people. Just to the fact you were held captive by ten months for these
:17:13. > :17:20.militants of Islamic State. -- for ten months by. You were handcuffed
:17:21. > :17:25.to James Foley for a week, you shared the same shoes. It must have
:17:26. > :17:30.been devastating when you heard the news about what happened. Of
:17:31. > :17:38.course, especially since I was in contact with his parents. Pages have
:17:39. > :17:55.been written about him. I was visiting his parents. Yes, of
:17:56. > :17:58.course. Just like any other. That is what is is specific with my
:17:59. > :18:10.captivity. Normally when you are released, you are free. I was not,
:18:11. > :18:16.because I left behind a dozen. I will not be totally relieved until
:18:17. > :18:19.the last one is released. The assistant African editor of the
:18:20. > :18:26.associated press said of James fully, he was determined to go to
:18:27. > :18:31.Syria, he wanted to get the point of view of the Syrian people told. Is
:18:32. > :18:40.that is what motivates you? Yes. This is the other crime that my
:18:41. > :18:49.captors committed. What happened to us and our families. But the major
:18:50. > :18:56.crime is because of that there were no more journalists or aid workers
:18:57. > :19:05.going into Syria. Syria turned into a black hole. James Foley had been
:19:06. > :19:08.held in prison in 2011 and he told journalism students later that he
:19:09. > :19:17.had gone for a romantic notion. But he also warned against risk-taking.
:19:18. > :19:27.He said it is not worth your life. Did he talk to you about any regrets
:19:28. > :19:31.he might have had? If you try something, if you feel you will
:19:32. > :19:49.always regret it. If you succeed you do not. She was seriously thinking
:19:50. > :19:58.leaving him. It was too harsh. He was thinking working for the CP J
:19:59. > :20:08.has a committed journalist or doing some interfaith work. To change his
:20:09. > :20:13.activity. The problem is, I would be the last one to lecture and
:20:14. > :20:30.journalist if he tells me, I want to go or do not want to go to Syria. It
:20:31. > :20:36.is an intimate decision. You were released and I want to ask you, was
:20:37. > :20:44.a ransom paid for you? I am not naive. I do not think I was released
:20:45. > :20:51.just because my captors liked the colour of my eyes. I have no clue
:20:52. > :20:55.what I have been exchanged for. The only thing I know for sure is what
:20:56. > :20:59.President Francois Hollande told me when I arrived back in France. The
:21:00. > :21:06.French government did not pay for you. That is it. But somebody else
:21:07. > :21:13.might have. Not the government. Some kind of French... I do not know. We
:21:14. > :21:18.know from a New York Times investigation that al-Qaeda netted
:21:19. > :21:23.around $120 million in just six years, of which $50 million came
:21:24. > :21:31.from France. It is possible that something was paid. It is possible.
:21:32. > :21:36.You quit the US treasury secretary saying that at least $20 million in
:21:37. > :21:42.ransoms has been paid to Islamic State, something that he laments. Is
:21:43. > :21:45.that not another reason why you should be careful about going to
:21:46. > :21:52.places like Iraq, because Westerners become a source of financial gain?
:21:53. > :21:58.You are right. This is something that journalists should can sit. --
:21:59. > :22:03.consider. If I go to a place like that and get captured, it is a
:22:04. > :22:10.question of national security for my country. Yes, it is a huge
:22:11. > :22:15.responsibility. But still, I am a reporter and I consider that it is
:22:16. > :22:19.not only my weight but my duty to go there. How do you feel about the
:22:20. > :22:25.fact that you are obviously here and there are others who were in your
:22:26. > :22:33.position who were killed, what kind of impact does that have on you? Has
:22:34. > :22:44.it created a lot of trauma? I am trying not to feel guilty. So you
:22:45. > :22:52.are trying not to feel guilty but suggest you have at times had that
:22:53. > :23:03.feeling? When you have these kind of experiences, of course you have, you
:23:04. > :23:12.go through different phases. It is a life changing experience, of course.
:23:13. > :23:20.Where are you now? Maybe I am looking at things more
:23:21. > :23:26.pragmatically. My very own little victory over these people who have
:23:27. > :23:36.taken me is that if I look at the bottom of my heart, my convictions
:23:37. > :23:41.are the same. They did not are the same. They did not change
:23:42. > :24:26.me. He probably tried, but they did not.
:24:27. > :24:30.Wednesday will be no different - very, very mild, still quite breezy.