:00:00. > :00:17.Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Zeinab Badawi.
:00:18. > :00:23.The recent Rugby World Cup was the biggest in the best so far. Records
:00:24. > :00:27.were broken on and off the pitch and the numbers of spectators and
:00:28. > :00:31.viewers on TV reached well over 100 million. My guest is Nigel Owens,
:00:32. > :00:34.the Welshman who refereed the exciting final and is one of the
:00:35. > :00:38.most respected professionals in the game.
:00:39. > :00:42.But it has not been an easy journey to the top of the game for him.
:00:43. > :00:45.As a gay man in a macho sport, he has suffered depression,
:00:46. > :00:49.How has the world of rugby embraced him, and what is
:00:50. > :01:25.Thank you. So it must have been a high point of your career. The high
:01:26. > :01:30.point, when you were that referee in that exciting final between New
:01:31. > :01:35.Zealand and Australia? Yes, I think it is. That is the pinnacle, really,
:01:36. > :01:38.for the player the pinnacle of their career would be playing the final,
:01:39. > :01:43.and the same goes for refereeing. That's it. That is the top, the
:01:44. > :01:46.biggest game in the world. It only happens every four years. So it was
:01:47. > :01:54.a great privilege and honour to be a part of it, really, a small part of
:01:55. > :02:00.it but important part of it. A great final as well. Give us an idea,
:02:01. > :02:03.where were you when you were told you would be referee? We get
:02:04. > :02:06.together Monday to discuss any issues that need to be discussed,
:02:07. > :02:10.things we did well and things we need to do better, as a group of
:02:11. > :02:13.referees, and then after that we get told them. I was told on the Monday
:02:14. > :02:22.before the final that I was doing it. You whooped for joy, did you? I
:02:23. > :02:25.did and I didn't. A little part of me knew I was in with a chance
:02:26. > :02:30.because I had refereed very well throughout the tournament. And when
:02:31. > :02:35.the announcements came of the semifinals, I wasn't involved at all
:02:36. > :02:37.and some of the other referee said congratulations, you will be
:02:38. > :02:41.refereeing the final. You don't really know until you are told. I
:02:42. > :02:44.knew I was in with a shout at you don't actually know until you are
:02:45. > :02:48.told. It was a bit of relief, really, and relief that I had got
:02:49. > :02:54.the final. And yes, you know, I was very humbled, and had a big smile on
:02:55. > :02:57.my face. He is in my eyes as well. But you have said that referees are
:02:58. > :03:01.often seen as the bad guys, and you have said it is the most hated job
:03:02. > :03:06.after traffic wardens -- tears in my eyes. The biggest challenge is not
:03:07. > :03:11.to let it get you. Why do you think it is such a hated job? If you do
:03:12. > :03:14.your job, you it right, you are going to be half of the stadium or
:03:15. > :03:17.half of the spectators who are not going to agree with the decisions
:03:18. > :03:22.you make, because their team have lost. And a lot of people who follow
:03:23. > :03:25.rugby, same as football or any other sport, a patriotic about their own
:03:26. > :03:30.sport. They want their team to win. And offer the referee gets the blame
:03:31. > :03:35.for that. So yes, when they say, after traffic wardens, it is
:03:36. > :03:39.apparently the most hated job, they are pretty right in what they say.
:03:40. > :03:44.You have also said there has not been a game that you haven't made a
:03:45. > :03:46.mistake. Your father said you made a mistake in the final when you Mr
:03:47. > :03:54.Ford passed during and New Zealand, All Blacks attacking move. -- missed
:03:55. > :03:57.a forward pass. Every single one of my games in 28 years I will have
:03:58. > :04:02.made a mistake. My full intention now is to go on and referee in 2019,
:04:03. > :04:05.and for the next four years or five years or however long it will be I
:04:06. > :04:10.will make mistakes again in every game. It is impossible to referee a
:04:11. > :04:13.game of rugby and not make a mistake. But when that mistake can
:04:14. > :04:18.actually affect the outcome of the game, as your fellow referee from
:04:19. > :04:25.South Africa was the referee in that match between Australia and...
:04:26. > :04:28.Against Scotland, and Scotland was knocked out because of a penalty
:04:29. > :04:36.that he was criticised for awarding to Australia, world Rugby cup said
:04:37. > :04:41.he had made a mistake. Do you think they should have stated that so
:04:42. > :04:45.publicly? Look, we don't... There is a code of conduct, really, an
:04:46. > :04:49.unwritten rule that is referees we never comment on other referee 's'
:04:50. > :04:52.decisions. That is made for the powers that be to deal with. They
:04:53. > :04:55.will have sat down with him and disgusted together with him, and
:04:56. > :04:59.will have come out with the outcome that they felt was appropriate to
:05:00. > :05:03.do. And that is what they decided to do. And we were not privy to that as
:05:04. > :05:06.a group of referees, to that conversation. So it would be unfair
:05:07. > :05:11.for me to comment on that decision, really. But when you do, and as I
:05:12. > :05:15.said, in the 20 years I have been refereeing I will have made
:05:16. > :05:20.mistakes. And when I run my father after the final and said, you know,
:05:21. > :05:24.the first thing he said when he came on the phone was how the hell did
:05:25. > :05:27.you miss that forward pass? Thankfully the better you get the
:05:28. > :05:30.better you are at your job, the little mistakes you make don't
:05:31. > :05:34.really matter. Missing that forward pass which I did didn't change the
:05:35. > :05:38.outcome of the game in. And that is the best you can hope for. It is a
:05:39. > :05:42.different kind of mistake, do you think, when it doesn't change the
:05:43. > :05:47.outcome of the game? However, not every body was as sanguine as you
:05:48. > :05:51.were. A writer for the Sydney Daily Telegraph said that that match
:05:52. > :05:55.wasn't helped that the referee Nigel Owens dudded Australia with several
:05:56. > :06:00.Crook decisions that either lead to New Zealand point or denied the
:06:01. > :06:03.Wallabies some. That is exactly what I was going back to at the
:06:04. > :06:07.beginning. When you have a set of supporters that support their own
:06:08. > :06:11.team, the referee always get the blame. And everybody is entitled to
:06:12. > :06:14.their opinions. What we as referees know that we are doing it to the
:06:15. > :06:19.best of our ability, and when you do make mistakes and again you make
:06:20. > :06:24.mistakes. And you can't... You know, you can't defend, if you made a
:06:25. > :06:26.mistake you made a mistake. And in that game I missed a forward pass.
:06:27. > :06:30.But that doesn't change the outcome of the game in any way. But that is
:06:31. > :06:38.the best you can hope for as a referee. What about the video
:06:39. > :06:41.referee, known as the TMO, the television match official, how has
:06:42. > :06:45.that changed the game? I think it has changed the game for the good,
:06:46. > :06:51.but also as well we've got to be careful we don't overuse it. I think
:06:52. > :06:55.it is humanly possible for you to referee a test match game of rugby
:06:56. > :06:59.without having technology to get those key decisions right. So you
:07:00. > :07:06.need technology there, and the technology is there to stay. And
:07:07. > :07:09.it... Has it helped? Has helped in getting big decisions right which in
:07:10. > :07:15.other times, it would have been humanly impossible to get a decision
:07:16. > :07:18.right. How do you use it well? Captain 's' challenge, allowing a
:07:19. > :07:22.certain number? That is something they have spoken about, a captain
:07:23. > :07:25.'s' challenge, that is something for world Rugby to look at and try it
:07:26. > :07:30.and see if it worked. That would be a good idea as long as it is not
:07:31. > :07:33.overuse. The only problem with technology as you can't overuse it.
:07:34. > :07:36.If you overuse it stem the flow of the game and takes away from the
:07:37. > :07:40.game itself and what we as referees need to do is we need to get better
:07:41. > :07:43.at using it. And we need to be sure were using it only when it is
:07:44. > :07:47.necessary and we don't overuse it. And that is what we need to do. If
:07:48. > :07:50.it is a captain 's' challenge, it could be something well worth
:07:51. > :07:53.thinking about. I would only go for it, if I was in charge of the
:07:54. > :07:57.choice, I would go for one challenge per game. Because if you are going
:07:58. > :08:02.for one challenge, all of a sudden you are going to have four stoppages
:08:03. > :08:06.in the game. Plus the team itself if the try is scored or not. We have
:08:07. > :08:13.talked about this high point in your career, but it was a tough path for
:08:14. > :08:16.you. And just in your autobiography, Halftime, you talked about for
:08:17. > :08:20.instance how in April 1996 you tried to commit suicide by taking an
:08:21. > :08:24.overdose of pills. You talked about the pressures of being a gay man in
:08:25. > :08:30.what is after all a very macho sport, the depression, the eating
:08:31. > :08:36.disorders. I mean, just give us an idea of what it was like then, and a
:08:37. > :08:42.tough decision that you took in 2007 to come out. I think there are two
:08:43. > :08:45.challenges to overcome. I think the biggest challenge that anybody comes
:08:46. > :08:49.across in their life, and the biggest challenge I ever had to come
:08:50. > :08:53.across, was accepting who I was. I was becoming somebody I didn't want
:08:54. > :08:58.to be. Being gay to me was... I was 19 years of age, living in a small
:08:59. > :09:01.village West Wales, had never seen or never met a gay person before.
:09:02. > :09:05.Didn't know what being gay was all about. So I was fighting against
:09:06. > :09:10.becoming somebody I didn't want to be. And that put me in a very bad
:09:11. > :09:15.place. I was quite obese at the time, I lost a lot of weight by
:09:16. > :09:19.making myself ill the wrong way, the unhealthy way. I went to the gym to
:09:20. > :09:24.try and put more muscles on and then I became hooked on steroids, and
:09:25. > :09:31.between steroids, bully me in the state of depression, I went to a
:09:32. > :09:35.very dark place. -- bulimia. And I did something one night that I will
:09:36. > :09:39.regret for the rest of my life. I left a note from a mum and dad is
:09:40. > :09:44.that I couldn't carry on any more. And to think of my mum and dad, I
:09:45. > :09:46.was an only child and my mum and dad getting up in the morning and
:09:47. > :09:49.reading that note, and wondering to themselves, is he still with us or
:09:50. > :09:56.not, that is something that I will never ever forgive myself for doing.
:09:57. > :10:01.And I got taken to the hospital, airlifted to hospital, and I was in
:10:02. > :10:06.intensive care for quite a few days. And when I came round my doctor told
:10:07. > :10:10.me in no uncertain terms, another 20 minutes and it would have been too
:10:11. > :10:14.late to save you. So I was a very, very lucky young man. And my mum and
:10:15. > :10:19.dad came to see me and my mum said if you ever do anything like that
:10:20. > :10:22.again then you take me and your dad with you, because we don't want to
:10:23. > :10:27.live our lives without you. And I sat up in bed that night after I got
:10:28. > :10:30.home and thought to myself I need to grow up here. I need to accept who I
:10:31. > :10:33.am. And that was the biggest challenge. The challenge of
:10:34. > :10:36.refereeing the World Cup Final with millions and millions of people
:10:37. > :10:41.watching at home, and all the pressures it brings, you know, a
:10:42. > :10:45.couple of weekends ago, is nothing compared to the challenge I had to
:10:46. > :10:48.overcome in my life, and I overcame that is challenged only by accepting
:10:49. > :10:57.who I was. And then, after that, there was the next challenge of how
:10:58. > :11:01.was I, as now a gay man, nobody out in the world of rugby, I was the
:11:02. > :11:08.first to come out in the professional rugby union in 2005
:11:09. > :11:12.2006, before I came out in 2007, I was not in a state of depression as
:11:13. > :11:16.I was before, but I was still worried because I was living a lie.
:11:17. > :11:19.And it was coming to a stage where I was going to have to make a
:11:20. > :11:21.decision. And this is a decision that nobody should have to make. No
:11:22. > :11:25.human being should have to make a decision not being who they are or
:11:26. > :11:32.choosing to participate in the sport they love. But I was at that stage,
:11:33. > :11:34.I thought, I will have to make its decision. Either live my life is a
:11:35. > :11:37.lie and continue refereeing, or I give up refereeing so I can live my
:11:38. > :11:41.life. And no one should have to make that decision. At that is what I
:11:42. > :11:45.felt I had to make. Thankfully didn't come to that. The Welsh Rugby
:11:46. > :11:49.union supported me fully. Every body in the community, the players, Barry
:11:50. > :11:54.Williams, that captains of the Ospreys at the time, and an ex-
:11:55. > :12:00.British Lion Hawker as well. They came up to me and said they totally
:12:01. > :12:04.respect what I had done -- hooker. And all boys are fully supportive of
:12:05. > :12:10.you. And that is why I think rugby has shown that, to me, it is not
:12:11. > :12:13.only the greatest team sport in the world on the field, but without a
:12:14. > :12:17.shadow of a doubt the greatest of team sports in the world off the
:12:18. > :12:21.field. I couldn't be who I am today if it wasn't for rugby. Well, your
:12:22. > :12:26.fellow Welshman Gareth Thomas was the first openly gay professional
:12:27. > :12:30.rugby union player when he came out in December 2009, and he said it was
:12:31. > :12:35.a really tough decision for him to make. It is rugby is such a macho
:12:36. > :12:40.sport, and in fact he said he had to be tougher than the toughest player
:12:41. > :12:43.just to make a point. Do you feel that his move, his decision and
:12:44. > :12:50.yours, has helped perhaps emphasise the more sensitive, empathetic side
:12:51. > :12:55.of rugby, so it is easier for younger players to come out now? A
:12:56. > :12:59.lot of people told me what I came out I was brave. I'm not quite sure
:13:00. > :13:03.I agree with that. For me the brave people out there are the people who
:13:04. > :13:07.risk their lives and go to save people's lives, the air rescue, the
:13:08. > :13:10.air ambulance, the people who go into the waters and the sea to pull
:13:11. > :13:14.people out and save their lives and put their own lives at risk. To me,
:13:15. > :13:18.the people who go to fight for peace in this world, those to me are the
:13:19. > :13:22.brave people, who put their lives on the line. To me it wasn't brave. It
:13:23. > :13:26.was something I had to do. But I will tell you a true story now which
:13:27. > :13:31.I think will sum it all up. I went to do a talk in a school in West
:13:32. > :13:37.Wales about homophobia in sport and bullying. I was bullied in school as
:13:38. > :13:43.well when I was younger. So I patron and anti- bullying charity. So I
:13:44. > :13:47.went to talk about homophobia and anti- bullying in sport. They had a
:13:48. > :13:52.workshop in the morning, and in the afternoon they were brought together
:13:53. > :13:56.in groups. The question they asked was what would you do at your best
:13:57. > :13:59.friend was gay? And this kid, 13 or 14 years, was a tough guy in school,
:14:00. > :14:03.he was playing for the rugby team. He was one of the tough guys,
:14:04. > :14:06.everybody looked up to him. And he said I wouldn't speak to them any
:14:07. > :14:10.more. They wouldn't be my best friend if they told me I was gay. So
:14:11. > :14:13.in the afternoon I came in, and I did my talk, the question-and-answer
:14:14. > :14:17.sessions, and one of the first kids to come afterwards and shake my
:14:18. > :14:21.hands and asked about rugby and where are you refereeing next? And
:14:22. > :14:24.he wanted a photo and wanted an autograph, was this kid, and I knew
:14:25. > :14:26.nothing about what had happened in the morning. And I knew nothing
:14:27. > :14:30.about what had happened in the morning. Teachers came over to me
:14:31. > :14:34.and he said did you know, this morning that kid told me if his best
:14:35. > :14:37.friend told me he was gay he wouldn't speak to him any more. He
:14:38. > :14:42.has just come to me now and told me, I have changed my mind. She said
:14:43. > :14:45.why have you change your mind? And he said well, if Nigel Owens is gay,
:14:46. > :14:56.then it must be OK. You were a target of homophobic
:14:57. > :15:01.attacks an you get a lot of it on social media, so it's still part of
:15:02. > :15:06.the deal, is it not? Look, I think, you know, since - since time has
:15:07. > :15:10.begun, there's been a minority of bad people. I'm afraid in the next
:15:11. > :15:14.thousands of years there'll be a minority of bad people. So no matter
:15:15. > :15:21.how many barriers you break down, how much society changes, how much
:15:22. > :15:24.respect we can install in people in society, which society lacks one
:15:25. > :15:28.important thing - respect. Rugby upholds that respect, probably
:15:29. > :15:32.better than a loot of other sports. But there's always be a minority,
:15:33. > :15:35.always be a minority of bad people that don't like certain people
:15:36. > :15:39.whether it's the colour of their skin, what country they come from,
:15:40. > :15:41.their religious belief or sexual orientation. But thankfully those
:15:42. > :15:47.minorities are getting less and less. And people make a difference.
:15:48. > :15:51.People like Gareth who come out, the people who make the difference a
:15:52. > :15:56.the-the-are the people who go everyday, who don't sit by and
:15:57. > :15:59.ignore it... Compared to football fans, for instance, rugby fans
:16:00. > :16:03.supporters are relatively well behaved but you talk about respect
:16:04. > :16:08.and respect for authority in Rugby Union and league. I mean, as I said
:16:09. > :16:12.it's relatively more than it is in football, but isn't rugby getting a
:16:13. > :16:16.bit more cynical or rather clever? I'm talking about the All Blacks,
:16:17. > :16:22.New Zealand's captain, Ritchie McCaw. I'll tell you what The Times
:16:23. > :16:26.newspaper said in March this year - there does seem to be a rule for
:16:27. > :16:30.McCaw and one for the rest of the world. He benefits from referee's
:16:31. > :16:34.doubt than any other open side. When McCaw takes the field is rarely the
:16:35. > :16:38.referee. Do you think we're seeing an erosion of - you know, more
:16:39. > :16:44.cynical or clever behaviour on the part of... Look, Ritchie McCaw is an
:16:45. > :16:49.a great player and also a great man. People like David Pocock are great
:16:50. > :16:54.players, great men, similar positions. Others are great players.
:16:55. > :16:57.And a lot of the back row players are exactly the same. They play the
:16:58. > :17:03.same way. They push the limits as much as they can, as any other back
:17:04. > :17:08.row players or any other player in the world does, but because when you
:17:09. > :17:12.are the best people seem to highlight it. I try to sum it up
:17:13. > :17:15.like this: If you look at - when Man United were the greatest team in
:17:16. > :17:19.football, probably in the world for a period of time, for that decade in
:17:20. > :17:23.the English premiership, everybody was saying they were getting away
:17:24. > :17:27.because they were Man United and because they were different, it's no
:17:28. > :17:31.different. Ritchie McCaw plays the laws of the game no different to any
:17:32. > :17:35.other open side. Do you see players on the field trying to pull the wool
:17:36. > :17:40.over your eyes. Yeah, well, they push - they push the limit, they'll
:17:41. > :17:45.try to push you off-side. Try to get as much as they can until you step
:17:46. > :17:49.in and tell them, go back, or you deal them or penalise them. I don't
:17:50. > :17:52.go out to referee big names or characters. I go out to referee the
:17:53. > :17:56.game of rugby. I referee two teams and 30 players. That all my job is
:17:57. > :18:00.to referee every single one the same. That's what we do as referees.
:18:01. > :18:02.And even else will have a different opinions. People of course as a
:18:03. > :18:06.referee you reference what's in front of you and everybody gets
:18:07. > :18:13.treated the same. But talking about perhaps how the game has changed, I
:18:14. > :18:19.mean, looking at this - the World Cup, the high number of injuries
:18:20. > :18:23.really does illustrate to many just how dangerous this sport, rugby is,
:18:24. > :18:27.and, you know, people are saying that as partly due to the fact we're
:18:28. > :18:31.seeing increase in the weight, speed and strength of the players and this
:18:32. > :18:35.is having a profound effect on injuries - two players collide is
:18:36. > :18:39.almost like seeing a car crash. There's no doubt the players got
:18:40. > :18:43.biggers, harder, stronger, faster, there's no doubt about that. The
:18:44. > :18:46.game has changed. The game has evolved and faster now, there's
:18:47. > :18:51.bigger hits than there's ever been. You referee a game sometimes you see
:18:52. > :18:55.a tackle go in, you think - how the hell did that - that guy bet back
:18:56. > :19:01.off the floor, the impact of it? What rugby is doing and trying to do
:19:02. > :19:06.is trying it's best to make a game, a physical contact game where there
:19:07. > :19:10.are going to be injuries, as safe as it possible can. Unless you change
:19:11. > :19:15.rugby beyond total recognition of the wonderful and unique game it is,
:19:16. > :19:18.then you are - you are going to have injuries unfortunately. Some of
:19:19. > :19:23.those injuries unfortunately are more serious than others. All rugby
:19:24. > :19:27.can do is make the game as safe as possible it can for everybody to
:19:28. > :19:31.enjoy the game. U think everybody who plays or who is involved in
:19:32. > :19:37.rugby will accept there's an element of risk you are going to get
:19:38. > :19:41.injured. Where do you draw the line. The former international Ireland
:19:42. > :19:46.player he said 10-15 years ago to see a guy stretchered off in a match
:19:47. > :19:50.is a big issues. I don't think that is sustainable. Within the game
:19:51. > :19:55.itself there are voices saying perhaps this isn't right. Well, what
:19:56. > :19:59.you need to do is try to make it as safe as possibly can. Should you
:20:00. > :20:03.change the rules? Well I'm not sure you can change the rules of the
:20:04. > :20:06.game. I'm not sure what more you can change. It's the naicht - the
:20:07. > :20:10.persons have become bigger and stronger so the tackle... I mean,
:20:11. > :20:15.tackle lower? It could well be. If you brought in a law. Down on the
:20:16. > :20:18.legs. If you brought in the law to - you must tack from the waist down. I
:20:19. > :20:22.don't know, this is something - look, world rugby and all the
:20:23. > :20:25.governing bodies in rugby, they put player safety as a priority and
:20:26. > :20:29.quite rightly so. They will do everything they can do make the game
:20:30. > :20:33.as safe as it possible can. If you think we're going to get a game
:20:34. > :20:38.where there's not going to be injuries. It's not going to happen.
:20:39. > :20:43.All we need to do is try to make it as safe as we possible can. We have
:20:44. > :20:47.to remember that's the type of game rugby is. That's the type of game
:20:48. > :20:52.rugby is and size matters so much. I want to talk to you... I'm not sure
:20:53. > :20:56.if size does matter. I was going to give you a point on this particular
:20:57. > :21:02.aspect where we're talking about doping which is of course a huge
:21:03. > :21:08.story at present in sport. And you know, Nicola Sapstead the chief, has
:21:09. > :21:12.told the culture media of sport in September that the sport she
:21:13. > :21:18.considered most at risk of doping was rugby union and you hear some
:21:19. > :21:21.cases about the pressure on young guys desperate to put on weight
:21:22. > :21:24.because they say they're not big enough. The message is if you're not
:21:25. > :21:29.big or strong enough you're not going to make it in rugby, that's
:21:30. > :21:32.what perhaps encourages the youngsters to turn to rugby. The
:21:33. > :21:37.games I have involved in, not just at the professional end, but other
:21:38. > :21:40.end of the game as well, pretty much all those games there'll be somebody
:21:41. > :21:43.there from the anti-doping establishment testing players. You
:21:44. > :21:50.know, I'd be very surprised if people are playing in the top end of
:21:51. > :21:52.rugby who are - who are taking steroids or abusing steroids or
:21:53. > :21:57.cheating the game. We're talking about the pressures to perform. A
:21:58. > :22:02.lot of you were disappointed how England performed in the World Cup.
:22:03. > :22:05.Do you think they can come back from their rather humiliating defeat? I'm
:22:06. > :22:09.sure they can. They're very proud rugby nation. You know, the strength
:22:10. > :22:15.and depth that England have, you know, they will - every, you know,
:22:16. > :22:20.Wales, we were disappointed in 2007. We lost to Fiji in the last round of
:22:21. > :22:23.the knockout and we were knocked out before the qualifying round as we.
:22:24. > :22:27.They regrouped and came back better and stronger and went to the
:22:28. > :22:32.semifinal in 2011 in New Zealand and were very unlucky not to go on and
:22:33. > :22:39.win and go to the time. I'm sure... Live another day. What do you make
:22:40. > :22:42.then of Stuart Lancaster who left his post as head coach of England by
:22:43. > :22:47.mutual consent, what was your response to that? I can only speak
:22:48. > :22:53.from what I know of Stuart. I don't know him personally well, but I have
:22:54. > :22:58.come across him quite a few times, and I don't know - I'm not - I have
:22:59. > :23:02.no idea of the skills and the requirements of what the coach needs
:23:03. > :23:07.or what the coach - what his make-up is or anything. All I see them as is
:23:08. > :23:11.as a human being, from the only occasion I met him, he was a great
:23:12. > :23:16.man and a very descent man as well. From the experience I had with him.
:23:17. > :23:20.You know, obviously he's come to mutual agreement with the governing
:23:21. > :23:25.body, and they decided that's what's best for him and best for England.
:23:26. > :23:29.And the next World Cup, Rugby World Cup is 2019. You're 44 years of age,
:23:30. > :23:34.you got to be pretty fit running up and down that pitch. Are you going
:23:35. > :23:38.to be fit enough in 2019 to be a referee in that? I certainly hope
:23:39. > :23:42.so. That's my aim. I think I'm fit as I have ever been. As long as I'm
:23:43. > :23:46.physically fit and meantly fit and my legs can get me around the field
:23:47. > :23:50.and as long as I'm refereeing well, that's the main thing as well, well,
:23:51. > :23:55.yeah, my intention now is to go on to 2019, and I will think at 4 years
:23:56. > :24:00.of age probably the end of that season would be time then to hang up
:24:01. > :24:04.the whistle then I think the most enjoyable part of my life an being
:24:05. > :24:09.involved in this great game. Small part of it but a part of it. I hope
:24:10. > :24:12.you enjoy putting your feet up after 2019. Nigel Owens thank you very
:24:13. > :24:36.much indeed for coming on HARDtalk. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
:24:37. > :24:40.We are awaiting the first significant storm of the season.
:24:41. > :24:43.This is a named storm - the Met Office have named the storm Abigail.
:24:44. > :24:47.You can see that showing up nicely on the Atlantic pressure chart.