:00:00. > :00:00.Now it's time for HARDtalk with Julius Malema, a controversial
:00:00. > :00:13.figure and leader of South Africa's Economic Freedom Fighters.
:00:14. > :00:15.Hello and welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Zeinab Badawi.
:00:16. > :00:17.He is one of the most colourful and controversial politicians
:00:18. > :00:22.To his supporters he is a populist who understands their needs and is
:00:23. > :00:27.To his critics he is a demagogue who makes inflammatory
:00:28. > :00:39.statements against corruption whilst personally enriching himself.
:00:40. > :00:43.My guest today is Julius Malema the leader of the
:00:44. > :00:50.which came out of nowhere to win more than 6% of the vote
:00:51. > :00:54.they've made their mark in South African politics.
:00:55. > :01:25.But is the EFF anything more than a protest party?
:01:26. > :01:37.Julius Malema, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Are the Economic Freedom
:01:38. > :01:39.Fighters anything more than a protest party making eye-catching
:01:40. > :01:45.statements but not amounting to very much? It is a government in waiting,
:01:46. > :01:50.an alternative to the ruling party in South Africa, the fastest-growing
:01:51. > :01:56.country -- party in the country. In less than a year, it it got 25
:01:57. > :02:01.members in Parliament and is represented in all provincial
:02:02. > :02:07.parliaments in the Republic of South Africa with a clear manifesto, a
:02:08. > :02:11.clear election manifesto, and alternative policies on how the
:02:12. > :02:17.problems of South Africa can be resolved. You had 1 million votes in
:02:18. > :02:21.the last election. Do you really believe you can prevent -- present a
:02:22. > :02:27.credible alternative to the ANC, the party of the late Nelson Mandela?
:02:28. > :02:39.Absolutely. This is a political party. It can be defeated. The ANC
:02:40. > :02:47.is self-destructing. The ANC has become like a pig, eating its own
:02:48. > :02:51.children. The party elite provides for itself and does not distribute
:02:52. > :02:56.the wealth of the country. And it does not resolve the inequalities,
:02:57. > :03:01.unemployment and poverty confronting the majority of our people. Is it
:03:02. > :03:05.necessary for you to make these criticisms of the ANC to also
:03:06. > :03:10.discredit Nelson Mandela, when he is obviously in no position to defend
:03:11. > :03:15.himself against some of the comments you have made about him recently?
:03:16. > :03:19.You said Nelson Mandela, after his release from prison, he stayed in a
:03:20. > :03:23.white man's house, a club of white men told him that what he
:03:24. > :03:27.represented would not be achieved. That is when he turned against
:03:28. > :03:32.himself. You said he was too old and too tired. He took the revolution as
:03:33. > :03:36.far as he could but he could not do more. What do you mean by that? That
:03:37. > :03:42.is the reality. He went to stay with... It is not disputing that
:03:43. > :03:47.after he separated from Winnie Mandela. And he attended separate
:03:48. > :03:50.meetings with the white elite group that owned the South African
:03:51. > :03:56.economy. And he was doing their bidding, is what you are implying.
:03:57. > :04:04.No, he then compromised what he represented. The Mandela that you
:04:05. > :04:07.celebrate now is not the Mandela before prison. It is a Mandela who
:04:08. > :04:13.was co-opted into a white, liberal agenda and towed the line. He was
:04:14. > :04:17.told nationalisation would not work and some of his policies must be
:04:18. > :04:22.abandoned. You are saying that Mandela was eight sellout? I'm not
:04:23. > :04:27.saying that. You are not saying he is a sellout? I'm saying he fought
:04:28. > :04:32.off two here and we have to take it from where he left it. You said that
:04:33. > :04:35.the Nelson that we celebrate now is a stage-managed Mandela who
:04:36. > :04:40.compromise the principles of the revolution captured in the freedom
:04:41. > :04:48.charter. Absolutely. Any deviation from that is a sellout position. The
:04:49. > :04:52.ANC sold out because they left their freedom charter. And Nelson Mandela
:04:53. > :04:57.was a sellout is I have to contextualise this because it is not
:04:58. > :05:02.about individuals so much as the collective leadership of the ANC
:05:03. > :05:08.that led us to compromise during negotiations in 1994. More than
:05:09. > :05:13.Nelson Mandela, it is the collective leadership of the ANC that abandoned
:05:14. > :05:17.the freedom charter. And the freedom charter was formed on the basis of
:05:18. > :05:25.the Constitution in 1994. It was accepted in... There you are, saying
:05:26. > :05:31.that you represent the spirit of the revolution that ended apartheid and
:05:32. > :05:36.so on. Let us take on a sample. The recent student protest against the
:05:37. > :05:39.increase in tuition fees. Were worthy Economic Freedom Fighters?
:05:40. > :05:42.This was a grassroots and organic student movement. This would have
:05:43. > :05:46.been a really totemic issue for the Economic Freedom Fighters to have
:05:47. > :05:51.picked up and said, OK, students, we will start mobilising all of you to
:05:52. > :05:56.get this increase abandoned by the government. The students did it
:05:57. > :06:02.themselves. The Economic Freedom Fighters was there. Afterwards. No.
:06:03. > :06:10.Look at the pictures from when it started. There was a man there, the
:06:11. > :06:16.Economic Freedom Fighters leader. And the ANC Youth League leader.
:06:17. > :06:20.Both of these inspired the leadership of the EFF. We did not
:06:21. > :06:27.have to be there ourselves. One of the leaders of the student protest
:06:28. > :06:35.tweeted in October that you will hear the EFF say they had been
:06:36. > :06:41.fighting before the hashtag fees must fall started. That is news to
:06:42. > :06:44.me. Who did run with the issue but my point is that you did that after
:06:45. > :06:49.the students had begun it themselves. -- you did. You jumped
:06:50. > :06:58.on the bandwagon. No, I'm a authority on this subject. The EFF
:06:59. > :07:05.student, and. You can Google them. The EFF did not come later. We did
:07:06. > :07:10.not want to get involved because we knew that students have already got
:07:11. > :07:15.capable leadership, so we did not have to hijack it. The students did
:07:16. > :07:26.very well. If you go into a video when the students went to the ANC
:07:27. > :07:31.headquarters, the ANC Secretary General, the guy who tells him to
:07:32. > :07:36.sit down on the floor, he is the chairperson of the EFF student
:07:37. > :07:41.command, so we have been there. I made the point that it started as a
:07:42. > :07:47.grassroots movement. But are you not just hitting the headlines for being
:07:48. > :07:50.disruptive as a protest voice? Looking at what happened in
:07:51. > :07:53.Parliament earlier this year when Jacob Zuma was making the State of
:07:54. > :07:59.the Union address and all of those scuffles that we saw. One of our
:08:00. > :08:05.correspondent said he saw one EFF MP trying to swing a punch at security
:08:06. > :08:08.officials. Is that conduct becoming of a party that you have just said
:08:09. > :08:13.is an alternative to the ANC in government? We will not allow a
:08:14. > :08:18.situation where security bounces just walk into the assembly and it
:08:19. > :08:23.is up when we don't do anything. We are not going to allow that. Week
:08:24. > :08:28.stood up peacefully. As for Jacob Zuma, when is he going to repay the
:08:29. > :08:32.money of our people? He did not steal the money of people. You are
:08:33. > :08:40.referring to the controversy about the upgrades to the home of Jacob
:08:41. > :08:43.Zuma in his home province. And the Public protector said that the
:08:44. > :08:48.president had benefited unduly. I would pick up the point that you
:08:49. > :08:51.said he had stolen money. If you want to call it benefited unduly,
:08:52. > :08:57.that is you being polite. I'm being brutally honest. He stole the money.
:08:58. > :09:03.I said that in Parliament and they chased me out. I went to court and
:09:04. > :09:09.the court said there was nothing wrong with what I had said. I'm not
:09:10. > :09:14.talking about the public protector... She was critical about
:09:15. > :09:19.the whole thing. I'm just saying that... I'm accusing him of doing
:09:20. > :09:24.exactly that. Jacob Zuma stole the money. I'm accusing him. Well, I'm
:09:25. > :09:29.saying that he denies it and the public investigation... He has a
:09:30. > :09:34.right to deny that. I have a right to accuse him. You are not going to
:09:35. > :09:37.take that right away from me. Whatever the rights and wrongs, what
:09:38. > :09:41.about the scuffles in Parliament? When we said to him, when are you
:09:42. > :09:44.going to repay the money that you stole from government through the
:09:45. > :09:50.building of your house they did not want him to answer that question. He
:09:51. > :09:54.has been avoiding that question. We firmly put that point on the table
:09:55. > :10:00.and today we have a situation where, actually, the unnecessary spending
:10:01. > :10:05.of money has stopped because of the EFF. The money was increasing,
:10:06. > :10:10.escalating year after year. Since the arrival of the EFF in
:10:11. > :10:14.Parliament, the amount of money they are spending in Jacob Zuma's house
:10:15. > :10:19.has effectively stopped. In 2008 when you were a member of the ANC,
:10:20. > :10:23.which had been since you were a child, and you were the leader of
:10:24. > :10:27.the ANC Youth League from 2008 to 2012, you said we were prepared to
:10:28. > :10:30.die for Jacob Zuma, you were prepared to take up arms and killed
:10:31. > :10:35.him, and yet here you are as one of his harshest critics. -- kill for
:10:36. > :10:42.him. That statement was not to be meant literally. It was expressed as
:10:43. > :10:47.a metaphor. I'm not saying that you were literally going to kill... I'm
:10:48. > :10:52.just saying... We were prepared to make him president of the country
:10:53. > :10:55.because at the time we were convinced that his predecessor
:10:56. > :10:57.wanted to go for a third time and that would undermine the
:10:58. > :11:01.Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. My question was not to
:11:02. > :11:05.take what you said literally but to point out that you have gone from
:11:06. > :11:11.being one of his strongest defenders to one of his fiercest critics. It
:11:12. > :11:21.is strange, isn't it? It is not strange. I raised that with him. But
:11:22. > :11:26.this is not when we -- what we voted for, him in reaching himself and his
:11:27. > :11:31.family. We were not going to allow that. -- enriching. You say that you
:11:32. > :11:36.are the voice of the dispossession and disenfranchised. You wear your
:11:37. > :11:41.distinctive red beret is. Are your policies as distinct as your
:11:42. > :11:49.policies? What do you bring to the table? Rationalisation of minds,
:11:50. > :11:54.banks and monopoly industries. Quality and free education and
:11:55. > :12:00.healthcare. Proper and spacious houses for our people. The creation
:12:01. > :12:05.of jobs. These are the core principles of the EFF. There is no
:12:06. > :12:10.party in Parliament or in the Republic of South Africa that speaks
:12:11. > :12:14.about those issues. We are the only ones who want the workers on the
:12:15. > :12:22.ground benefit from the wealth, the minerals and the natural resources,
:12:23. > :12:25.of South Africa. We know about your recent march to the Johannesburg
:12:26. > :12:28.stock exchange when you said you wanted 51% of companies to be owned
:12:29. > :12:34.by the workers, where is the money going to come from for that, or will
:12:35. > :12:40.you do it without compensation? Absolutely. What we need to do is
:12:41. > :12:44.companies must just surrender 51%. Just like that? No compensation?
:12:45. > :12:49.They have exploited the wealth of this country for much too long. Just
:12:50. > :12:53.do it? It is time that the people benefited. People don't have money
:12:54. > :12:57.to buy those shares and they will never have the money to buy those
:12:58. > :13:02.shares. And the same for land? We know that many people agree that the
:13:03. > :13:06.fact that 85% of the land in South Africa is only owned by 10% of the
:13:07. > :13:10.population is something that should be addressed. The ANC has already
:13:11. > :13:15.signalled it will be trying to introduce reforms to make sure, for
:13:16. > :13:20.example, that any individual South Africa cannot own more than 12,000
:13:21. > :13:25.hectares of land. It will distribute more than 90,000 hectares of land to
:13:26. > :13:31.smallholders and so forth. On that issue, the government is trying to
:13:32. > :13:34.do something. You cannot pretend that for the past 25 years may have
:13:35. > :13:39.the power they could not have done anything they wanted. Until today,
:13:40. > :13:42.they have not done anything. The figures you are referring to happen
:13:43. > :13:48.during colonial times and they are still happening today because the
:13:49. > :13:49.ANC did not want to tamper with the economic structure and the patterns
:13:50. > :13:56.of property ownership in Africa. They are not doing anything
:13:57. > :13:59.on it. Daniel Silke says these demands, the ones who have been
:14:00. > :14:04.talking about, that corporations, mining companies, land and so on,
:14:05. > :14:08.they represent a wish list from the EFF. The question is how disruptive
:14:09. > :14:11.they are willing to become if the demands are not that. Are you
:14:12. > :14:16.suggesting you would do this by force? We are going to engage in a
:14:17. > :14:21.very persuasive and peaceful engagement with capital. We have
:14:22. > :14:25.already done that. We are meeting captains of the industry. Some are
:14:26. > :14:32.beginning to respond to our memorandum. Some say that these
:14:33. > :14:36.proposals... Civil disobedience? Would you use civil disobedience?
:14:37. > :14:43.Not until our people are pushed to the limit. But I'm saying that they
:14:44. > :14:46.are prepared to give shares to the black elite who are politically
:14:47. > :14:50.connected and if you are prepared to give to one individual, why not give
:14:51. > :14:54.it to the workers themselves who are making this company into what it
:14:55. > :14:58.is? And the companies are beginning to say that it looks like this will
:14:59. > :15:02.work in their favour. The ANC says that more needs to be done to help
:15:03. > :15:06.the 85% of black people in South Africa who are at the bottom. Jacob
:15:07. > :15:10.Zuma has said that it will take a while to undo decades and decades of
:15:11. > :15:15.policies under apartheid. He has been applauded for the national
:15:16. > :15:18.economic plan, which is trying to address some of those issues full of
:15:19. > :15:22.a proper economic blueprint to improve the lot of people. We have
:15:23. > :15:30.seen extra housing, water, sanitation.
:15:31. > :15:35.You can say the economic policy makes the economy grow but it
:15:36. > :15:38.doesn't create jobs for people who deserve to be celebrated. The result
:15:39. > :15:46.is that inequality has grown in South Africa. It has become more
:15:47. > :15:49.rich over poor and those divisions, unfortunately, they happen a long
:15:50. > :15:57.richer lines. The Rich Beem white and the poor being black -- being.
:15:58. > :16:01.There is no one today who can come with a coherent argument that indeed
:16:02. > :16:05.inequality has been resolved in South Africa. I didn't say that. I
:16:06. > :16:13.think we are one of the highest unequal societies in the world. But
:16:14. > :16:21.it is the progress? Progress until we die. This OECD report talks about
:16:22. > :16:26.South Africa reducing absolute poverty, ruling a pensions, care for
:16:27. > :16:33.disabled children, water, housing, electricity and well-being enhancing
:16:34. > :16:37.substantially. That is not the only intervention, giving people social
:16:38. > :16:42.grants, that cannot be celebrated. It is not long-term, we don't want
:16:43. > :16:46.to create a welfare state, we want to create a state where people work
:16:47. > :16:49.for a living and own their own economy and the means of
:16:50. > :16:52.production. Let's look at how you are doing in the country, because
:16:53. > :17:00.you said you were gaining support and so on but let me just give you
:17:01. > :17:03.one example, the economic hub that includes Johannesburg, if you look
:17:04. > :17:11.at the elections last year, you got eight seats there and if you look at
:17:12. > :17:17.The Democratic Alliance under its new leader who is very charismatic,
:17:18. > :17:28.he won 23 seats, he is a local boy. They are eating your lunch there.
:17:29. > :17:34.Let's correct the facts. You are trying to create the impression that
:17:35. > :17:38.my money produces numbers, I will still be tested next year in the
:17:39. > :17:45.open elections. But on the basis of how he did... It is premature, he
:17:46. > :17:51.doesn't deserve those accolades. We have gone into the Soweto area where
:17:52. > :18:00.my money comes from, with ADA won once in local elections. They lost
:18:01. > :18:03.in 2014. The people who have been voting for the DAR those who have
:18:04. > :18:08.been looking for an alternative and they didn't find it, they had to
:18:09. > :18:17.settle. But in the last election, we saw the DA's vote go up to 22% last
:18:18. > :18:21.year. So it is increasing. And now the fastest increase in membership
:18:22. > :18:29.in the parties amongst black South Africans. It is undisputed that the
:18:30. > :18:40.party will look forward to growing in South Africa. In 2014, the EFF
:18:41. > :18:50.was new and did not have resources. It went into the election with zero
:18:51. > :19:02.parlance inside the bank and yet it managed. And imagine EFF with a
:19:03. > :19:08.little bit of resources. The DA is no competition. Until 2012, you were
:19:09. > :19:12.part of the ANC elite, you could say. You were part of that
:19:13. > :19:16.architecture. Someone might say, why should we accept what Julius Malema
:19:17. > :19:21.says? He has also been the subject of controversy with the expensive
:19:22. > :19:29.house you bought in the most expensive part of South Africa, and
:19:30. > :19:32.also the issues over tax and whether you may tax returns which reflected
:19:33. > :19:37.what you actually had and so on. People might say you are just the
:19:38. > :19:42.same as them. No, on principle issues and the issues I am raising
:19:43. > :19:48.now, I raise them even when I was in the ANC. Those who have followed my
:19:49. > :19:51.politics would never say, he only follows that principle because he is
:19:52. > :20:00.outside the ANC stuck white but you are a member of the elite yourself
:20:01. > :20:04.is the point I am making? Do you except you are a member of the
:20:05. > :20:26.Legion that maintain to? I am a Member of Parliament -- taint you?
:20:27. > :20:30.You make 1400 US dollars per month. I do not make as little as those on
:20:31. > :20:35.the lowest income. I was not saying you should do that, but as the
:20:36. > :20:37.leader of a party that professes to stand up for the rights of the
:20:38. > :20:41.dispossessed and the poor, should you be buying a house in the richest
:20:42. > :20:50.part of Johannesburg? Should you also have a Mercedes car? Andrew on
:20:51. > :21:00.point engineering -- and through on point engineering, where you were
:21:01. > :21:05.accused of unduly benefiting to the tune of a few 100 thousand dollars?
:21:06. > :21:09.You are subject to the same criticisms that you are making about
:21:10. > :21:19.the elite. All I am saying is that what I am fighting for is not the
:21:20. > :21:23.same. The state intervention into the living conditions of our people
:21:24. > :21:27.present opportunities to all and the outcomes should be almost the same.
:21:28. > :21:32.Let people choose where they want to stay. There must not be a deliberate
:21:33. > :21:39.economic desire to exclude certain people and make them stay in the
:21:40. > :21:46.camps. I want to live where I want to live, in a rich place or not. But
:21:47. > :21:49.is it a good symbol? It doesn't undermine what I represent to. I
:21:50. > :21:53.represent the ability of black people to emerge out of a difficult
:21:54. > :22:03.past and be able to settle wherever they want to settle. And it must be
:22:04. > :22:07.a matter of choice. It must not be that this is the exclusive area for
:22:08. > :22:12.the white elite, it is incorrect. And those things you are pointing
:22:13. > :22:16.at, they were all before the court of law, and none of those things
:22:17. > :22:25.have stood the test of time. They have all failed. Those who accuse me
:22:26. > :22:31.knew the case against me was concocted. They conspired to
:22:32. > :22:36.discredit me. But the national prosecuting Authority spokesman
:22:37. > :22:38.said, this was not an acquittal, the matter was struck off the roll, the
:22:39. > :22:44.Department of Public prosecutions can be approached to reinstate the
:22:45. > :22:49.matter, he said that an August 2015. Are you worried? I am not worried, I
:22:50. > :22:54.am a free man. You must replay what the judge said to me when you drop
:22:55. > :22:58.the charges, he said to me Julius Malema, you are a free man and I am
:22:59. > :23:01.a free man up until they bring new charges against me, I am a free man
:23:02. > :23:07.fighting for the people of South Africa, the black majority and
:23:08. > :23:12.Africans in particular to tell me where they want to live, to go to
:23:13. > :23:17.school where they want and to participate effectively in the
:23:18. > :23:21.economy of South Africa. Do I still have a political conscience and off
:23:22. > :23:27.to fight for the port of the poorest? My political conscience is
:23:28. > :23:30.clear. I am fighting for the poor. I'm not fighting for me, I am
:23:31. > :23:33.fighting for those people and I am not pretentious when I say that, I'm
:23:34. > :23:39.doing it legitimately and generally. Briefly and finally, the
:23:40. > :23:45.poorest of the port include many young South Africans, 25-40% of the
:23:46. > :23:49.figure for the unemployed. This should be your natural
:23:50. > :23:52.constituencies but these youngsters don't vote. We are engaged in a
:23:53. > :23:57.programme to mobilize young people to register in their numbers. The
:23:58. > :24:02.EFF is the only party that is focused on fighting youth apathy
:24:03. > :24:07.when it comes to politics. We brought excitement, we brought the
:24:08. > :24:10.necessary image to politics in South Africa and we are confident that
:24:11. > :24:16.come next year, the majority of young people will register to vote
:24:17. > :24:18.for the Economic Freedom Fighters. Julius Malema, thank you for coming
:24:19. > :24:34.on HARDtalk. Thank you.