:00:00. > :00:12.Welcome to BBC's HARDTalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.
:00:13. > :00:15.Today, I speak to Rwandan politician, Frank Habineza, who
:00:16. > :00:22.founded the opposition Democratic Green Party of Rwanda in 2009.
:00:23. > :00:26.He wants President Paul Kagame, who has been in power for more than
:00:27. > :00:29.20 years, to stand down at the next presidential elections in 2017.
:00:30. > :00:33.Rwanda is still in the process of recovering from the genocide
:00:34. > :00:35.of the mid-1990s, and the government has been praised for
:00:36. > :00:37.its success in alleviating poverty and bringing about reconciliation.
:00:38. > :00:41.But, Habineza thinks it is time for a change and has been critical
:00:42. > :01:16.What can he offer a nation that has been so scarred by tragedy?
:01:17. > :01:32.Frank Habineza, thank you for joining us. Thank you. How much
:01:33. > :01:42.support does your party, and in Rwanda? The support base is about 1
:01:43. > :01:52.million. The population is about 12 million? We are building up
:01:53. > :01:59.structures. We have structures in 15 districts in Rwanda. We are moving
:02:00. > :02:06.forward. You are clearly an opposition party and you are allowed
:02:07. > :02:11.to function in Rwanda. With a body that registers political parties,
:02:12. > :02:15.they said they have no problem with Frank Habineza and his party, it is
:02:16. > :02:21.his right to return home, because you are in exile, so long as it
:02:22. > :02:26.fulfils the requirement. We are a multi-party state. Just take us back
:02:27. > :02:30.to the reasons why you had to leave the country and why you have decided
:02:31. > :02:42.it is now safe for you to go back and operate. First of all, we
:02:43. > :02:51.launched the party in August 2009. The rough land and Patriotic Front?
:02:52. > :02:56.-- Rwandan. We a part of the youth movement. You are part of the
:02:57. > :03:00.community... I know you don't like the ethnic labels, but you were in
:03:01. > :03:13.exile in Uganda at the time. Yesterday 1984. Anyway... -- yes,.
:03:14. > :03:20.The first chairman of was me. -- of it. We wanted to be opposition, not
:03:21. > :03:26.just to the opposition, but as an alternative. We saw that many
:03:27. > :03:34.objectives if RPF had was to bring democracy. But when they had power
:03:35. > :03:41.from 94 -2000, we wanted political power. They were forgetting some of
:03:42. > :03:46.the issues like democracy. We did not have any political opposition
:03:47. > :04:00.and so won. You formed the democratic Green Party. -- so on.
:04:01. > :04:04.And before, the candidate was found dead, decapitated, you went to the
:04:05. > :04:19.morgue and identified his body. He off. Venue fled to Sweden for your
:04:20. > :04:28.safety. -- then you. -- yes. Yeah, he was physically beaten by people.
:04:29. > :04:34.We asked for ammunition and could not get them. We tried from 2009...
:04:35. > :04:44.It was difficult stop the we had death threats. -- difficult. We were
:04:45. > :04:49.all very scared. So you left. So I have to ask you, you are back in
:04:50. > :04:56.Rwanda three years later. You have your party. You speak openly and are
:04:57. > :05:08.doing busy did you. Yeah. You are not scared for your life any more.
:05:09. > :05:13.-- doing this interview. We get threats sometimes. But we are trying
:05:14. > :05:19.to do everything by the law and the respect law so we avoid things that
:05:20. > :05:26.can lead to conflict and armed conflict. We are trying to do
:05:27. > :05:34.politics... You feel safe now? Not 100%. In October I had some issues.
:05:35. > :05:46.In November, I had some issues, myself. But not death threats. But
:05:47. > :05:50.threats. You feel you can... The national organisation secretary is
:05:51. > :05:58.missing since last year, he went missing in the town... We took this
:05:59. > :06:04.issue to the police, even to the minister of security, now we have
:06:05. > :06:10.taken... One year now we have not seen him. You are still claiming
:06:11. > :06:19.there is harassment against you? Yeah. But... We have had threats...
:06:20. > :06:31.What did they they jeer? We asked the minister of justice... -- they
:06:32. > :06:40.say. There is political realism in Rwanda. There are two -3 parties
:06:41. > :06:45.elected. -- pluralism. We know that the Parliament have 64% women. There
:06:46. > :06:53.is a national dialogue that allows the governed to engage with the
:06:54. > :07:02.governors. That has been praised by a UN official, Carlos Lopez. The
:07:03. > :07:06.government would argue their ears space for democratic activity. --
:07:07. > :07:11.there is. Did is the main message we have been saying to the government.
:07:12. > :07:16.We need them to open up a wider spectrum for everyone to
:07:17. > :07:21.participate. -- This is. The parties that have been in the argument...
:07:22. > :07:29.There were negotiations aimed to end the war between the former
:07:30. > :07:35.government... The Social Democratic Party and the Labour Party... They
:07:36. > :07:40.are the same parties that are in Parliament. -- Liberal. There are
:07:41. > :07:46.still going on. We have not been new parties being active... But he will
:07:47. > :07:51.be allowed to stand in the next parliamentary elections. -- we. If
:07:52. > :07:58.we stand and when we will start counting and we will see change
:07:59. > :08:03.coming. There is a lot of discussion about the continent of Africa and
:08:04. > :08:06.Rwanda specifically on the issue of whether a resident or leader in
:08:07. > :08:12.Africa should have more than two terms in office. -- president. In
:08:13. > :08:15.Rwanda, the upper and lower house have now ratified in new
:08:16. > :08:21.constitution that would allow a resident to run for a third term and
:08:22. > :08:26.two further five-year term. -- president. Is the people vote for
:08:27. > :08:33.this in the referendum, we don't have a date for it, then why not? --
:08:34. > :08:37.terms. What if people wanted was much we have not been supporting
:08:38. > :08:42.that change to the Constitution. We have gone to the Parliament in May
:08:43. > :08:50.to see the Constitution should not be changed. Time limits are to stop
:08:51. > :09:00.threats to our security. We need a transfer of power which we have not
:09:01. > :09:08.seen in 100 years. Do you mean a party to another party or a
:09:09. > :09:13.president to another president? Regardless of whether he runs or
:09:14. > :09:26.not... Paul Kagame... I am talking about your piece open -- your
:09:27. > :09:33."peaceful transfer of power". Are you guessing the outcome of the
:09:34. > :09:38.elections? People are saying... It already looks like that. 2017 is
:09:39. > :09:41.going to be that. We... He hasn't said... Who has said the
:09:42. > :09:48.Constitution will be changed for Paul Kagame to run again? Some
:09:49. > :09:52.ministers study this campaign... They started saying they wanted him
:09:53. > :09:59.to continue... In your view, will Paul Kagame run for a third term? He
:10:00. > :10:09.has not let those. He even sent you that refers not to do so. -- not
:10:10. > :10:18.said so. -- EGM said he prefers not to. When? Even last year he was
:10:19. > :10:23.saying the last thing I said. When? He said it would have failed. That
:10:24. > :10:27.is not the same thing as saying I will not run for a third term,
:10:28. > :10:32.saying if I failed to find a successor... That is not tantamount
:10:33. > :10:38.to saying... He is not entrusted... I can tell you what he has said. I
:10:39. > :10:44.just want facts straight because you are making the claim. Paul Kagame
:10:45. > :10:48.will run for a third term, you safe to be but he has actually said, in
:10:49. > :10:52.an interview to a Ugandan journalist in June this year, there is no doubt
:10:53. > :11:00.that at 1.I will be clear myself where I stand and what I and decides
:11:01. > :11:05.to do. -- what I decide. -- at one point. He said he will decide
:11:06. > :11:08.depending on the future of the country. Just clarifying, Paul
:11:09. > :11:15.Kagame has not said he will definitely run... I said before, he
:11:16. > :11:22.is not interested. He said that. But the move has been approved by The
:11:23. > :11:25.Supreme Court. They said that the draft of the Constitution has been
:11:26. > :11:34.approved by Parliament, paving the way for a referendum if the people
:11:35. > :11:37.want it. Then it will be changed. 3.8 million people have petitioned
:11:38. > :11:48.president Paul Kagame to indeed stand against the bite we are going
:11:49. > :11:54.to run a campaign. -- again. For the last 100 years we have not in any
:11:55. > :12:02.peace for the from one president to another. -- peaceful. You will
:12:03. > :12:08.campaign? Yes. We will make it clear. We will do it legally. And,
:12:09. > :12:11.if the referendum votes to allow Paul Kagame to run, you will accept
:12:12. > :12:18.the outcome or would you challenge that? The public... If it is a free
:12:19. > :12:23.and fair election, of course we will accept, it is democracy. But if it
:12:24. > :12:27.is not we will not. That will depend on the outcome. We have had
:12:28. > :12:34.elections, obviously. The last one in 2010 by a Commonwealth expert, he
:12:35. > :12:39.said it was conducted in any good atmosphere and there was freedom of
:12:40. > :12:47.movement and assembly and move restriction was acknowledged... The
:12:48. > :12:51.Commonwealth expert also says there was no opposition party in that
:12:52. > :13:02.election. Argued were full there will not be a peaceful transfer of
:13:03. > :13:07.power? -- are you fearful. When the country gets into trouble... We saw
:13:08. > :13:14.a Burkina Faso were the president had it backfire. That is different,
:13:15. > :13:19.with Pierre Nkurunziza in Burundi, he has been criticised by the United
:13:20. > :13:24.Nations for using inflammatory comments, whipping up ethnic
:13:25. > :13:28.hatred... That is something that Paul Kagame has not done in Rwanda
:13:29. > :13:35.where he actually claims we are all Rwandans. I want to make that point.
:13:36. > :13:41.He has been in power for more than 20 years. People are forced to use
:13:42. > :13:49.that means to remove the president sometimes. Let's stick with Rwanda.
:13:50. > :13:52.Whatever happens, you will support the outcome of the referendum or you
:13:53. > :13:58.are fearful that after the referendum it will trigger
:13:59. > :14:03.violence. What are you saying? Well... If the elections are free
:14:04. > :14:11.and fair, we will accept it. Of course, either party, we will have
:14:12. > :14:18.candidacy... If we are satisfied... Of course, we will make some
:14:19. > :14:22.demands. If we are satisfied we have a level playing field for the
:14:23. > :14:29.elections in 2017... Will that be you? Most probably.
:14:30. > :14:43.On to terms of a not bad, -- onto third terms, they are not bad in
:14:44. > :14:50.themselves. Is the leader stays longer than ten years, they have
:14:51. > :14:54.done everything. But there aren't rule had been in power for more than
:14:55. > :15:00.ten years. I am doing everything they have done. Where the president
:15:01. > :15:05.has been there and they are doing the same things, and there is more
:15:06. > :15:09.corruption and so on. A country that has not seen a lot of corruption,
:15:10. > :15:19.but we believe that when they become familiar with the president ...
:15:20. > :15:26.Because of the horrible circumstances in Rwanda, butchering
:15:27. > :15:34.each other because of the tribal background. Therefore, you should
:15:35. > :15:49.make a special case for Rwanda for continuity. Outpoint as a party has
:15:50. > :15:55.been that that we have been able to the ruling party as a party should
:15:56. > :16:07.choose someone to stand, and that would create a level playing field,
:16:08. > :16:10.because if we see at -- a president Mike Paul Kagame, it cannot be a
:16:11. > :16:14.level playing field. Let us look at policy issues, because William
:16:15. > :16:29.Wallace from the Financial Times says that President Paul -- Paul
:16:30. > :16:32.Kagame's policies have been scarred. What would you do it to
:16:33. > :16:35.make it even better Russian yellow the key to the concession is
:16:36. > :16:47.actually democracy. We believe that if the people are more involved. To
:16:48. > :16:55.have free speech, if political parties contribute, we believe that
:16:56. > :16:58.they will speak up and we will be able to build up an economy
:16:59. > :17:02.together. It's the economy is moving without a democracy then there will
:17:03. > :17:19.be issue. The two must go hand in hand. You are bringing up a debate
:17:20. > :17:24.again and there are things, for example, when things were said about
:17:25. > :17:34.associating democracy with elections as a silver bullet. There were
:17:35. > :17:38.looking at what Africans are most concerned about in 2012, and the
:17:39. > :17:43.first was jobs, second infrastructure, third was economic
:17:44. > :17:47.policies and forth was inequality. Based on that, you could say that
:17:48. > :17:51.development, these matters are much more important than what you have
:17:52. > :18:01.just raised, in the democratic space. We have a lot of development
:18:02. > :18:06.here. What we went to democracy, everything turned around. What you
:18:07. > :18:13.think about this poll say that these things are important? It is
:18:14. > :18:18.important to have a good economy. But they need to go hand in hand.
:18:19. > :18:22.You can't put more focus on economy, Dan democracy. We think
:18:23. > :18:28.that they should go hand in hand. Even if you put the efforts, we have
:18:29. > :18:39.income inequality. I think you have seen that report. They said that it
:18:40. > :18:45.was the most unequal country in East Africa. Are you saying that the
:18:46. > :18:51.applause that Rwanda has received, but there are so many other reports
:18:52. > :18:54.that praise Rwanda is being one of the top success stories in terms of
:18:55. > :19:04.development and progress on the African continent. Do you dispute
:19:05. > :19:07.that? It is a fact. We are saying that all countries are not going at
:19:08. > :19:12.the same pace. You see more happening in the capital, but there
:19:13. > :19:17.are some small towns coming up, but in the Wirral areas is not yet
:19:18. > :19:24.coming out. So the government is tackling inequality in the rule
:19:25. > :19:28.areas? Basically, there are few people who have more than others.
:19:29. > :19:33.What about figures from the World Bank that his praise Rwanda and its
:19:34. > :19:38.remarkable development successes which has reduced poverty and
:19:39. > :19:47.inequality, life expectancy has gone up from 55 in 2005 to 64 in 2013,
:19:48. > :19:53.health spending has tripled between 1996 and 2013. You know, left right
:19:54. > :19:58.and centre you get so many individuals and organisations, and
:19:59. > :20:06.you talk about rule areas, that the global hunger index based on data
:20:07. > :20:11.from the government and UN agencies, and the World Bank said
:20:12. > :20:14.that in October this year, in absolute terms, Rwanda is one of
:20:15. > :20:19.three African countries that recorded the biggest improvements in
:20:20. > :20:28.meeting hunger levels, even though hunger levels up big concern still.
:20:29. > :20:31.And so it is tackling inequality. We are not arguing that there has been
:20:32. > :20:42.progress. We are saying that there has also been challenges. In 2015,
:20:43. > :20:49.we had in one province, this was published, people had to move from
:20:50. > :20:57.their area to another area because they had not enough food. What
:20:58. > :21:03.policies would you have two improve lives for the people of Rwanda? We
:21:04. > :21:10.would make sure that we produce more jobs from the rule areas, and
:21:11. > :21:15.promote small businesses. We would reduce attacks on small businesses
:21:16. > :21:20.to stop them from getting out of the country. Soap we would see that we
:21:21. > :21:25.can promote the development of small businesses, green jobs as well.
:21:26. > :21:29.Promoting a green economy and making sure that everyone involved, of
:21:30. > :21:35.course, we will not without the bigger problems of administration.
:21:36. > :21:38.There's a difference between what the government is doing and what the
:21:39. > :21:41.government is saying. I try to find out what is different is. You watch
:21:42. > :21:47.reduce defence spending, for instance. Is that a good idea when
:21:48. > :22:00.you live in a tough neighbourhood? We want to put more on... I think
:22:01. > :22:04.for defence for the country, we can't focus on having more guns, but
:22:05. > :22:11.full security. We need good diplomatic relations. We can put
:22:12. > :22:17.more effort into the soft security. You spoke about businessmen and
:22:18. > :22:22.women leaving, but they jumped in the ease of doing business. You
:22:23. > :22:30.can't be chasing a way that many businesses. We are attracting
:22:31. > :22:32.foreign businesses, but there are businesses that have not been happy
:22:33. > :22:40.with a taxation point. Bottom line is this. The president has delivered
:22:41. > :22:47.both stability and economic benefits and security for the people, and
:22:48. > :22:57.therefore, they are going to back whoever is running for the RPF, and
:22:58. > :23:04.not you for the Democratic Green Party of Rwanda. They are going to
:23:05. > :23:09.back RPF and not you. People are saying that they have seen that he
:23:10. > :23:14.has been able to deliver. If there is no transfer of power, then there
:23:15. > :23:20.will be no chance of young leaders getting into power. We are going to
:23:21. > :23:35.see the same problems for another 20 or 30 years. The new targets ... But
:23:36. > :23:38.you accept that about peace and stability question yellow we are
:23:39. > :23:44.open to that and we are happy with that. But of course, if we create a
:23:45. > :23:55.level playing field and another party gives a different parcel, --
:23:56. > :24:05.persons. Then we will have it in the moment. Frank Habineza thank you for
:24:06. > :24:22.coming in. They give -- thank you very much.
:24:23. > :24:26.Tuesday was a day of contrasting fortunes across the British Isles.