Monzer Akbik, member of the Syrian National Coalition

Download Subtitles

Transcript

:00:00. > :00:00.MPs backed David Cameron's call to extend military action.

:00:00. > :00:21.Welcome to HARDtalk. Members of the international coalition against the

:00:22. > :00:25.so-called Islamic State, including Britain, have been weighing up the

:00:26. > :00:26.effectiveness of airstrikes on IS stronghold inside Syria in the

:00:27. > :00:29.aftermath of the Paris attacks. But what impact has the intensified

:00:30. > :00:32.military campaign against IS had My guest is Monzer Akbik

:00:33. > :00:44.from the Syrian National Coalition, an umbrella organisation made up

:00:45. > :00:46.of Syrian rebel groups. Does he believe their battle

:00:47. > :01:28.against Assad has been re-energised Thank you for having me. We've seen

:01:29. > :01:31.the 65 member coalition against ISIL strengthen as a result of the Paris

:01:32. > :01:36.attacks in November. Is that something you welcome? What I

:01:37. > :01:44.welcome is more attention to what is going on in Syria. Obviously there

:01:45. > :01:48.are very bad guys, who are still there at large and are able to

:01:49. > :01:54.commit atrocities against the Syrian people. More attention to Syria to

:01:55. > :01:58.solve the humanitarian problem, to achieve some kind of ceasefire,

:01:59. > :02:03.political transition, is welcomed by Arthur. More attention but it has to

:02:04. > :02:10.be the right sort of attention. -- by us. You say atrocities committed

:02:11. > :02:15.by the Assad regime and ISIS. I just give you a comment made by a Syrian

:02:16. > :02:22.living in Lebanon, where she works in humanitarian areas, she asks you

:02:23. > :02:29.to imagine what would happen if what is happening in Paris is happening

:02:30. > :02:32.on a daily basis for five years and imagine that happening without

:02:33. > :02:34.global sympathy for innocent lost lives, without the support of every

:02:35. > :02:40.world leader condemning the violence. Do you believe there is a

:02:41. > :02:43.double standard? That Syrian lives matter less than those killed in the

:02:44. > :02:50.West? Somehow I agree to that. This is unfortunate. There are a lot of

:02:51. > :02:56.countries who have expressed sympathy with the Syrian people and

:02:57. > :03:01.they have expressed support for the Syrian people, to get rid of the

:03:02. > :03:05.dictatorship of Assad. But that support was always short of

:03:06. > :03:10.achieving a decisive end to this war. Why the double standard? Why do

:03:11. > :03:16.people care less about the quarter of a million Syrians, who have died

:03:17. > :03:21.as a result, directly or indirectly, of President Bashar al-Assad, and

:03:22. > :03:26.those killed in Europe? Mary Mac it is natural that for the Europeans to

:03:27. > :03:31.have more attention and interest for the things happening inside Europe

:03:32. > :03:35.itself. Of course those attacks in Paris were appalling. We have

:03:36. > :03:42.condemned them. We don't want anybody to be harmed anywhere in the

:03:43. > :03:47.world. At the same time, we are asking for international attention

:03:48. > :03:54.after nearly five years of Syrians losing their lives to broker a

:03:55. > :03:59.solution in Syria stop white but you are getting more international

:04:00. > :04:04.attention. -- in Syria. But it might be operating to your detriment. The

:04:05. > :04:10.French Foreign Minister told a radio station at the end of November that

:04:11. > :04:14.winning back the ISIL stronghold in Syria was a priority and required

:04:15. > :04:19.bombings and troops on the ground, which could include Free Syrian Army

:04:20. > :04:26.forces. Those are the rebel forces, Sunni Arab forces and why not, he

:04:27. > :04:29.asks, Syrian regime forces? So, he is even suggesting that actually you

:04:30. > :04:35.could go into alliance with President Assad's forces. They have

:04:36. > :04:40.clarified those statements. They say such participation would be either

:04:41. > :04:43.the track -- after the transition, after the dictatorship and

:04:44. > :04:47.transition towards a transitional government. Of course there are many

:04:48. > :04:52.elements that have to be excluded from this. There are at the militias

:04:53. > :04:57.and Revolutionary guards who are fighting with Assad and there are

:04:58. > :05:02.people who committed crimes. He clarified but he didn't retract the

:05:03. > :05:05.why not Syrian regime forces, he said just within an internationally

:05:06. > :05:11.agreed co-operation framework and so on. I mean, the point I'm trying to

:05:12. > :05:14.make is 2013 you've got the French saying, we want to take action

:05:15. > :05:20.against Bashar al-Assad's chemical weapons sites, they called him a

:05:21. > :05:24.pariah and the US and UK backtracked, and yet now you find

:05:25. > :05:31.them making these kinds of statements. It is a very different

:05:32. > :05:36.spirit. It is conditional. After the transition, I would say that we have

:05:37. > :05:38.already agreed, everybody has agreed, they say that the

:05:39. > :05:45.institutions in Syria should be preserved. There should be reformed,

:05:46. > :05:50.but preserved. When the dictatorship ends, Assad goes, then the remnants

:05:51. > :05:54.of the Syrian army will continue normally after excluding the

:05:55. > :06:00.elements, the criminal elements, and they will be united with the rest of

:06:01. > :06:04.the Syrians to fight terrorism. We will talk about the transition and

:06:05. > :06:07.the fact that this has been astute in the diplomatic track in parallel

:06:08. > :06:14.to the military strategy, but that's a long way off. Let me put to you, a

:06:15. > :06:16.colonel of the 30th infantry division, a rebel force, says Bashar

:06:17. > :06:24.al-Assad has given the world two options. Either IS or his regime. It

:06:25. > :06:28.seems the world has chosen Bashar al-Assad to support him. That's the

:06:29. > :06:31.point I am making. He sees it in the way I have presented to you. He is

:06:32. > :06:36.frustrated enough to make this statement. I don't think the world

:06:37. > :06:43.has chosen Bashar al-Assad. The position has not changed. What I

:06:44. > :06:48.noticed is that the priority has shifted towards confrontation of

:06:49. > :06:52.ISIS. We can prove also that unless there is progress on the political

:06:53. > :06:57.level, unless there is progress on the front of changing the regime,

:06:58. > :07:04.there will not be progress also on confrontation of ISIS. Both things

:07:05. > :07:07.are linked together. Sure. But you are not all speaking with one

:07:08. > :07:16.voice. I know the Syrian National Coalition presents more than 30

:07:17. > :07:21.blocs, but I give you another person who disagrees with what you say. The

:07:22. > :07:25.leader of one Free Syrian Army group says, we fight the terrorism of the

:07:26. > :07:31.regime first and then the terrorism of ISIL. So, he is actually putting

:07:32. > :07:37.the priority is quite differently to how you have pictured it. You say

:07:38. > :07:41.maybe we have to target ISIL first, he says you target the regime first.

:07:42. > :07:45.Which is more important? He expresses that because the

:07:46. > :07:53.pressure, the military Pesce from the regime side is much more than

:07:54. > :07:56.from the ISIS side. -- military pressure. The Free Syrian Army is

:07:57. > :08:01.fighting since the beginning of 2014. This fight continues. But

:08:02. > :08:05.there is enormous pressure from the regime, together with the Iranian

:08:06. > :08:09.Revolutionary guards and militias, and the Russians who came in from

:08:10. > :08:12.the 30th of September, bombing the rebels, they are attacking and are

:08:13. > :08:19.on the offensive everywhere in the south, in Damascus, the coastal

:08:20. > :08:23.mountains, south of Aleppo. There is huge pressure from the regime right

:08:24. > :08:26.now. That's why it is a priority. These people have to defend

:08:27. > :08:31.themselves and they have to defend the people and the villages and the

:08:32. > :08:35.territory they have. When I ask you which is more important, very

:08:36. > :08:40.simply, priorities, because there is a thought that you can't do both at

:08:41. > :08:45.once, as a former chief of defence said. He said we want to deal with

:08:46. > :08:50.Islamic State and also get rid of Assad. That is not plausible. Can

:08:51. > :08:56.you do both at the same time? Both at the same time? It is possible,

:08:57. > :09:00.but you can't reach a decisive end. You can't completely eradicate ISIS

:09:01. > :09:04.and have a sustainable campaign that will lead to a complete success,

:09:05. > :09:12.unless the danger from the regime and his allies is succeeded or

:09:13. > :09:17.ends. One is not more important than the other? They are both important.

:09:18. > :09:21.The confrontation of ISIS must continue but you can't reach a final

:09:22. > :09:29.result with ISIS unless you get the most important, the biggest front,

:09:30. > :09:32.that is the regime. That has to be some kind of ceasefire or a

:09:33. > :09:37.political solution. Something has to happen in order for all of the

:09:38. > :09:42.people to make a sustainable and successful campaign against ISIS. In

:09:43. > :09:45.the context of all of this debate we have in the British House of

:09:46. > :09:48.Commons, for instance, we heard the debate there and saw the intensified

:09:49. > :09:55.air strikes by the Russians and French after the Paris attacks, a

:09:56. > :10:01.sickly for you is this good? -- basically. Is this good for the

:10:02. > :10:05.Syrian opposition? What is good for the Syrian opposition is that they

:10:06. > :10:14.get support for the Syrian people to end the bloodshed and to end the

:10:15. > :10:20.criminals in Syria, who are the Assad regime and ISIS. Wheel

:10:21. > :10:25.airstrikes do that? The airstrikes alone cannot do that. -- will. We

:10:26. > :10:32.have to have boots on the ground and they are the Free Syrian Army, the

:10:33. > :10:36.rebels. The rebels can and have before defeated ISIS and they can

:10:37. > :10:41.defeat ISIS with the support of air force from the allies. At the same

:10:42. > :10:44.time, they have their hands full now, fighting the regime and the

:10:45. > :10:50.regime is on the offensive everywhere, with the Iranians and

:10:51. > :10:55.Russians. So, it is not that ISIS is the priority, or of Assad is the

:10:56. > :11:02.priority, what we need to do is have a ceasefire on the regime front

:11:03. > :11:07.first, in order for the rebels to be able to get rid of ISIS. It will be

:11:08. > :11:12.in a relatively short time. You are saying that you have this temporary

:11:13. > :11:15.truce, or a truce, with the government and it is the rebel

:11:16. > :11:25.fighters on the ground who will take on ISIL? For Syria and the world?

:11:26. > :11:28.When David Cameron says he reckons there are about 70,000 Syrian

:11:29. > :11:34.moderate armed forces on the ground, and he says not all of them

:11:35. > :11:37.are ideal partners, the by the 70,000 is the figure he gives, he

:11:38. > :11:42.says there's a further to divide doesn't troops on the ground Syrian

:11:43. > :11:48.rebels, that aren't good partners for the coalition. Do you think that

:11:49. > :11:54.sounds about right? Yes, there are even more than that. The Syrian

:11:55. > :11:57.rebels are from the people. They did not start the war. The regime

:11:58. > :12:07.started the war on the people, Cosby wanted a change. So, it is difficult

:12:08. > :12:12.to define a number, because they are basically coming from the society

:12:13. > :12:17.itself. But there are more than 100,000, I think. Do they have

:12:18. > :12:21.everything they need? One wonders why, if they have this capability

:12:22. > :12:25.that you say they have to take on ISIL, they have done that already.

:12:26. > :12:30.That was a thought that the chairman of the UK House of Commons Defence

:12:31. > :12:34.Select Committee has said. Where are these magical 70,000 people and why

:12:35. > :12:39.have they been unable to roll back ISIL? In terms of hard work, they've

:12:40. > :12:47.always been under armed compared to what regime has. In terms of why

:12:48. > :12:51.they have not taken ISIL, there have been fighting ISIS since about two

:12:52. > :12:57.years and they continue to fight ISIS. I would have to emphasise the

:12:58. > :13:03.danger from the regime front being much higher than ISIS. Both ISIS and

:13:04. > :13:09.Assad are killing innocent civilians, but Assad ten times that

:13:10. > :13:14.of ISIS. They have to defend their villages and cities. Really their

:13:15. > :13:20.priority is to fight the force that is killing them in greater numbers

:13:21. > :13:25.and that is the regime? Yes. That's the point I'm trying to make.

:13:26. > :13:29.International attention is focused on Syria, but more on ISIS

:13:30. > :13:34.strongholds and how you can get these diverted views to come

:13:35. > :13:39.together to your benefit. ISIS is a symptom of the disease and the

:13:40. > :13:44.disease was in the beginning that the Assad regime waged a war against

:13:45. > :13:47.the people and affected political punishment against the people,

:13:48. > :13:50.because the people wanted change and they have the right to change and

:13:51. > :13:55.they have the right to call for freedom, dignity and change towards

:13:56. > :14:02.democracy. This is the main problem and I don't think that the ISIS

:14:03. > :14:07.problem could be completely resolved on both this problem is. What about

:14:08. > :14:10.the thought that has been floated by some, the Foreign Minister of the

:14:11. > :14:17.United Arab Emirates has said that the UAE will send in ground troops

:14:18. > :14:22.to Syria. And he has said that he would back international efforts to

:14:23. > :14:25.set up a regionally led coalition to intervene, to fight in Syria. He

:14:26. > :14:30.says the Saudi-led coalition fighting in Yemen is an alternative

:14:31. > :14:38.model. Is that something you would welcome? Arab, Muslim troops on the

:14:39. > :14:41.ground in Syria? Helping you in your fight, vote against ISIL and

:14:42. > :14:48.possibly the regime? Or does it become too messy?

:14:49. > :14:56.We have welcomed before more intervention from our friends and

:14:57. > :15:03.allies. Remember when there was the chemical attack in 2013, we have

:15:04. > :15:09.welcomed intervention from the West. The Saudis and and varieties are our

:15:10. > :15:15.brothers and our allies. It would be to the benefit of the Syrian people.

:15:16. > :15:19.That is something that you, as an opposition spokesperson, could save

:15:20. > :15:28.boots on the ground, the airstrikes are not enough. No proper combat

:15:29. > :15:35.ground troops, you think there could be an Arab coalition coming in?

:15:36. > :15:41.Anything that will save Syrian lives and will help Syrians and this

:15:42. > :15:47.tragedy and suffering and to help Syrians get rid of those criminals

:15:48. > :15:54.of ISIS and Assad. Anything that will help in that direction. And

:15:55. > :16:00.what about Turkey? Turkey is being pushed by the Americans and French

:16:01. > :16:03.to do more to close its border with Syria, because they say ISIL

:16:04. > :16:12.fighters are moving in and out of the country. What is your view on

:16:13. > :16:20.that? A lot of coalition members are based in Turkey. Ten days ago there

:16:21. > :16:27.were a few villages north of Aleppo in Syria that were liberated from

:16:28. > :16:31.ISIS control by the rebels with the help of Turkish air force and

:16:32. > :16:38.American drones. The talks are already hitting ISIS and supporting

:16:39. > :16:44.the same goal of getting rid of both ISIS and Assad. There is a view from

:16:45. > :16:49.a foreigner American official that says Turkey is not the store water

:16:50. > :16:54.Nato partner it once was. It is more an ally in name and in fact. It has

:16:55. > :17:02.done little to staunch the flow of foreign recruits. Of course, the

:17:03. > :17:08.Turks can answer for themselves. The questions could be addressed to a

:17:09. > :17:17.Turkish spokesperson. For us, we have not seen any evidence the Turks

:17:18. > :17:23.are not against ISIS. It is a very mixed picture on the ground. We have

:17:24. > :17:27.uranium forces supporting President Bashar al-Assad, Lebanese Hezbollah

:17:28. > :17:32.fighters fighting alongside them, the Russians with a airstrikes

:17:33. > :17:39.against both ISIL strongholds as well as on Syria and opposition

:17:40. > :17:44.fighters. You have got that problem. All of this has to be reconciled.

:17:45. > :17:51.You look at the diplomatic track, the negotiations that have started

:17:52. > :17:59.in Geneva and Vienna, although Syrians were not invited to those

:18:00. > :18:05.talks. That is the only way there will be a resolution to what is

:18:06. > :18:11.going on, do you access that? What came out Vienna was somehow

:18:12. > :18:17.encouraging. For the first time in such a meeting, there was talk about

:18:18. > :18:24.a ceasefire that everybody agrees on. Including the big five. And

:18:25. > :18:28.there was talk about a schedule for the transition. At the beginning of

:18:29. > :18:35.the year, there will be negotiations. In May, a transitional

:18:36. > :18:41.government body will be established and then it will move the country

:18:42. > :18:45.towards elections. An election should be completely supervised and

:18:46. > :18:49.monitored by the United Nations. Whatever written has been

:18:50. > :18:55.encouraging. But you have to be cautiously optimistic. The Russians

:18:56. > :19:01.have agreed on a ceasefire, they have agreed on a ceasefire, but on

:19:02. > :19:10.the ground water than 95% of the strikes are against moderate rebels.

:19:11. > :19:13.They said the ten to bomb ISIS and they are not doing that. They are

:19:14. > :19:20.supporting the Assad regime on the ground. The actions are completely

:19:21. > :19:28.contradicting what they are saying. What we need to do is to know what

:19:29. > :19:34.the Russians' intentions. The West need to call their bluff on the

:19:35. > :19:46.ceasefire matter and call for that ceasefire. The Russians can affect a

:19:47. > :19:51.ceasefire if they want. That is the? -- the question as well. If you can

:19:52. > :20:03.get the Russians to agree with that, Assad can agree with that. There is

:20:04. > :20:08.a view, what about the Iranians? Where do they fit into all of this?

:20:09. > :20:16.There might be even keener supporters. The Iranians also have

:20:17. > :20:24.to agree to a ceasefire. They have about 30,000 troops, 5000 of them in

:20:25. > :20:33.the national guard, 25,000 of militia that are supported by Iran.

:20:34. > :20:39.These people also eventually have to agree to a ceasefire and leave the

:20:40. > :20:45.country. You mention Russia and you say it can tell Bashar al-Assad to

:20:46. > :20:54.do this. But don't you Syrians have to say to the Russians, will you

:20:55. > :21:03.military bases surrounded by Western military bases in the region. They

:21:04. > :21:09.have got these two in Syria, a good relationship with the Assad regime.

:21:10. > :21:13.You have to protect Russian interests, don't you? We have told

:21:14. > :21:21.the Russians several times about this. We have talked to them about

:21:22. > :21:25.these matters. They always refuse to engage in such dialogue. The problem

:21:26. > :21:27.is the