:00:00. > :00:14.That's all from me. Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:34.By some measures Malawi is the world's poorest
:00:35. > :00:37.country, and is heavily dependant on aid.
:00:38. > :00:46.My guest today is Malawi's President Peter Mutharika.
:00:47. > :00:50.Why can't it shape of this legacy and how much of its failures are
:00:51. > :01:01.down to bad government? President Mutharika,
:01:02. > :01:12.welcome to HARDtalk. You have said, it is obvious that we
:01:13. > :01:18.are facing is various problems in Malawi. Let us all of us come
:01:19. > :01:23.together and deal with the problems that have this country on the verge
:01:24. > :01:30.of collapse. I said that for three reasons. First, when it came to
:01:31. > :01:34.power last year, there was absolutely nothing in the Treasury.
:01:35. > :01:43.All of the money had been siphoned out by the previous government and
:01:44. > :01:48.my predecessor, Joyce Banda. That is why. $30 million of public funds
:01:49. > :01:52.misappropriated. I have to say that the former president, Joyce Banda,
:01:53. > :01:59.has not been found personally guilty of anything. Pending investigation.
:02:00. > :02:03.Her government. The administers and party officials in the government
:02:04. > :02:09.that were involved. And the investigations are still going on.
:02:10. > :02:13.Secondly, because of that the donors have left. They provided a large
:02:14. > :02:20.percentage of budget support. They left. Third, the worst fires in --
:02:21. > :02:25.floods in the history of Malawi and they worst drought. The floods wiped
:02:26. > :02:29.out half of the crops. There were three big shocks that hit us. That
:02:30. > :02:33.is why I was saying it was a serious matter. On the verge of collapse.
:02:34. > :02:43.But what do you mean by that? Bankruptcy? No, hyperbole. Is a
:02:44. > :02:47.situation, Sirius. We will be recovering. But I'm the first
:02:48. > :02:54.president in the history of Malawi to face these three things that have
:02:55. > :02:58.hit us. I'm sure within a year or so we will be back where we were
:02:59. > :03:01.before. You have mentioned those three reasons but I have to put it
:03:02. > :03:09.to you that the problems Malawi are facing are problems of longer term
:03:10. > :03:14.significance. For example, UNICEF's report says that 47% of children in
:03:15. > :03:19.Malawi have stunted growth. According to World Bank estimates
:03:20. > :03:23.from 2014, your GDP is $250 per year per capita, which by that measure
:03:24. > :03:29.makes Malawi the poorest country in the world. 85% of the rural
:03:30. > :03:37.population, where most people live, face increasing poverty. 47%, 50% of
:03:38. > :03:43.the country's 17 million people live on the poverty line. I could go on
:03:44. > :03:45.and on. These are very serious challenges they face which are not
:03:46. > :03:50.as a direct consequence of the three issues you have outlined. Imagine
:03:51. > :03:55.the three in the context of your question. When I said the country
:03:56. > :03:58.was on the verge of collapse, that was hyperbole. It is not. But you
:03:59. > :04:06.are right. These are objective conditions which have existed since
:04:07. > :04:13.we became independent in 1964. Indeed, poverty, exclusion of women
:04:14. > :04:16.and children, youth, people in rural areas. We're working on those
:04:17. > :04:20.things. And I will be telling you in the course of this discussion some
:04:21. > :04:25.of the measures we are taking to correct and to improve our
:04:26. > :04:29.conditions in Malawi. Right. Malawi has been independent for more than
:04:30. > :04:34.50 years, as you have said. The EU's head of cooperation said in
:04:35. > :04:38.September this year that Malawi is a peaceful society not hampered by
:04:39. > :04:43.ethnic tensions. It is blessed with freshwater, fertile land, a lot of
:04:44. > :04:50.enterprising people. Malawi can and must do better. What is keeping
:04:51. > :04:54.Malawi behind? He says that governance issues are at the heart
:04:55. > :04:59.of Malawi's development talent. Governance issues. That is one point
:05:00. > :05:08.of view but it is more than that, I think. Governance, of course... What
:05:09. > :05:13.does he mean by that? Do you know? Corruption in country. There is
:05:14. > :05:21.corruption. But we are fighting that. Recently I announced three
:05:22. > :05:25.pillars. Patriotism, integrity and hard work. Those most found our
:05:26. > :05:33.national ethic and everyone is embracing that. If there is
:05:34. > :05:43.patriotism and integrity, corruption would not take place. We are
:05:44. > :05:51.fighting corruption. You are talking about Cashgate, the problem that
:05:52. > :05:56.happened in 2014, the misappropriation of funds related to
:05:57. > :06:01.political campaigning. I must put it to you that as one academic at the
:06:02. > :06:04.university of Malawi said this year, 35% of government funds have
:06:05. > :06:11.been stolen in the past decade. This is something that predates Cashgate.
:06:12. > :06:19.No brother, the late president, when he was president from 2004, that
:06:20. > :06:24.takes us back to a decade ago. -- your brother. There must have been a
:06:25. > :06:29.lack of governance and corruption going on under his watch. And before
:06:30. > :06:34.that. Before that, under the previous government. And what you
:06:35. > :06:40.are saying is true. Corruption has been going on for decades. There is
:06:41. > :06:44.always corruption in every society. Our problem is that we are not able
:06:45. > :06:55.in a situation when there are limited resources... When there is
:06:56. > :06:59.corruption, there is nothing left. Maybe 20% of funding goes through
:07:00. > :07:03.corruption, incompetence and poor accounting. But that is what
:07:04. > :07:11.happens. We are taking measures to stop corruption. I will give you the
:07:12. > :07:14.chance to say that but I have to put it to you and I'm putting your late
:07:15. > :07:19.brother's record to you, because you were also a Cabinet Mr for part of
:07:20. > :07:23.the time under him. You were a professor of constitutional law for
:07:24. > :07:27.40 years working in the US when your brother became president. When that
:07:28. > :07:31.happened, you went back to Malawi and became his chief adviser and
:07:32. > :07:36.venue became Justice Minister, Education Minister and most latterly
:07:37. > :07:39.Foreign Minister. And you know that your brother was criticised for some
:07:40. > :07:44.excesses. I will give you one example. He bought a private jet for
:07:45. > :07:55.$15 million. Are you still using that jet? Not at all. It was bought
:07:56. > :07:59.by the government. It was to carry the president around. It was very
:08:00. > :08:03.inconvenient for the President to travel. That is why the government
:08:04. > :08:08.bought the jet. By the way, almost every African government has a
:08:09. > :08:15.private jet or they will hire one. Where is that government jet? You
:08:16. > :08:22.have to ask Joyce Banda. She sold it. We don't know to whom and where
:08:23. > :08:26.the proceeds went. That is part of the whole Cashgate scandal. Given
:08:27. > :08:29.that you have just agreed that Malawi faces so many challenges and
:08:30. > :08:36.you do not have the money and you have talked about how the government
:08:37. > :08:41.coffers are very depleted, is it sensible for you, when you went to
:08:42. > :08:48.the UN meeting, to hire a jet to take you from Malawi to buy, we knew
:08:49. > :08:53.there got a commercial jet? -- to Dubai where you then got a
:08:54. > :09:08.commercial jet? There was no other option. How would I get to Dubai
:09:09. > :09:15.from Ethiopia? Every African president went to New York. I flew
:09:16. > :09:21.to Dubai, where I connected with Emirates. That was the only way to
:09:22. > :09:23.make the connection. You say that commercial travel can be
:09:24. > :09:29.inconvenient for ahead of date but when this was put to you in the
:09:30. > :09:34.press, you became rather annoyed. -- for a head of state. You also said
:09:35. > :09:39.that Malawi should not advertise its poverty to the world. No, I said
:09:40. > :09:49.that it was lies that I had taken the whole village in one jet. No, I
:09:50. > :09:56.said it was not true. I was more annoyed, I was just firm. I don't
:09:57. > :10:02.like politicians and journalists outright lying when they don't have
:10:03. > :10:16.the facts. So that is what happened. This time I travelled commercial. It
:10:17. > :10:21.took 25 hours to get from Malawi... And when I get back, it will
:10:22. > :10:28.probably take me another 25 hours. The police chief said in August that
:10:29. > :10:32.corruption is omnipresent and is visible in every sector of society
:10:33. > :10:37.in Malawi. As you walk down the streets, in the civil service and in
:10:38. > :10:42.the private sector. It is something which is rampant, so the question
:10:43. > :10:46.then is what are you doing about it? Because people are looking to
:10:47. > :10:52.see whether the president is going to be putting some of these excesses
:10:53. > :10:57.we have discussed behind him. Yes, indeed. I will do my best. Festival,
:10:58. > :11:04.we have the anti-corruption bureau, which is functioning very well. I
:11:05. > :11:07.have just funded at 160% more than the 4 so it can have enough staff
:11:08. > :11:13.and lawyers and investigators. We fully support it. I have funded the
:11:14. > :11:19.prosecutions about 160%. They now have the resources to go after these
:11:20. > :11:27.people. In actual fact, the anti-corruption bureau is engaged in
:11:28. > :11:32.civil education. Every department... We establish and
:11:33. > :11:37.integrity system within the ministry where people are educated about
:11:38. > :11:45.anti-corruption. And I think it is going to work but it will take
:11:46. > :11:48.time. So it is being prevented and prosecuted. And you have changed the
:11:49. > :11:56.leader, the head of the anti-corruption bureau. But one
:11:57. > :12:00.woman from the University of Miami says that efforts to root out
:12:01. > :12:03.corruption in Malawi do what sticks because the existing institutional
:12:04. > :12:07.milieu makes it almost impossible to institute changes that can
:12:08. > :12:12.effectively stamp out corruption. -- University of Malawi. How serious
:12:13. > :12:20.are you about reforms or is this just window dressing? I don't have a
:12:21. > :12:23.defeatist attitude, saying that we will give it. That is what it is
:12:24. > :12:29.saying in that statement. That is wrong. It is very difficult. It is
:12:30. > :12:35.endemic and deeply rooted but we are fighting. People are being
:12:36. > :12:40.prosecuted. For example, 15 people had been found guilty of Cashgate.
:12:41. > :12:44.Everyone has been found guilty. No person has been acquitted. But
:12:45. > :12:48.Cashgate is just one part of the problem and you are focusing on that
:12:49. > :12:55.but I'm saying it is more rampant. Cashgate is at the centre. Malawi
:12:56. > :13:00.will feel the effects of Cashgate for many years to come. It is much
:13:01. > :13:04.more serious than I think western people think. Now, coming back to
:13:05. > :13:18.other corruption, we are prosecuting more cases of corruption. People are
:13:19. > :13:24.being arrested. People employing ghost workers have been found out.
:13:25. > :13:27.But it will take time. Because it has been such a big problem over so
:13:28. > :13:32.many years. And such a problem to the extent that although you rely
:13:33. > :13:35.for 40% of your budget on foreign aid, the international donor
:13:36. > :13:41.community has said we don't trust the government in Malawi, so aid has
:13:42. > :13:45.been suspended pretty much, causing you huge problems because you lack
:13:46. > :13:46.this money. As you said at the outset, you don't have the aid that
:13:47. > :13:56.you want in your budget. And that is blaming the wrong
:13:57. > :14:10.people. Cashgate was the previous government. In the end, people are
:14:11. > :14:13.suffering. Many unfortunate things are happening and it is a
:14:14. > :14:18.challenge. Your hospitals are running out of medicine? We are
:14:19. > :14:24.trying to replenish them but it is a real challenge and we are working
:14:25. > :14:28.extremely hard. We are turning our private sector money into hospital
:14:29. > :14:38.money and so forth. And we really hope it will work, but what happened
:14:39. > :14:49.was, I made the decision to leave at a time when 60 million US dollars
:14:50. > :14:52.had been depleted. So you say it is not fair to punish your government
:14:53. > :15:00.when you have only been in power since last summer. But there is
:15:01. > :15:03.money going at eight to Malawi but it is bypassing the government and
:15:04. > :15:18.going directly to those in need, so what is the problem -- aid? I think
:15:19. > :15:31.more must be done in the context of applying aid. I think this
:15:32. > :15:39.undermines the national government. When aid comes, it should be in the
:15:40. > :15:44.hands of the government, and the government must, in fact, it is in
:15:45. > :15:53.violation violation of your sovereignty? They have diverged at
:15:54. > :15:59.it from departments that were controlling it and that is what is
:16:00. > :16:04.happening. I think it will be good in the long-term, but not now. To
:16:05. > :16:08.look at the argument in a different way, you know the debate now in
:16:09. > :16:15.Africa is very much saying, we have to look at our own means. If you
:16:16. > :16:21.look at Agenda 2063 which is an economic blueprint for Africa which
:16:22. > :16:26.the United Nations has approved, they have said let us focus on the
:16:27. > :16:39.mystic resource mobilization and the former president just stepped down,
:16:40. > :16:42.and he said, this will effectively put us out of business but you are
:16:43. > :16:53.still saying that Malawi is dependent on aid and harkening back
:16:54. > :16:58.to an older way of thinking. Malawi will be self-sufficient in five
:16:59. > :17:09.years. We are expert based in terms of economy, we are an exporting
:17:10. > :17:15.nation. We do need assistance during this transfer period, that is all.
:17:16. > :17:19.2-3 years. You give it five years? More or less until the end of your
:17:20. > :17:33.mandate weighs you can get rid of aid completely? -- your mandate. You
:17:34. > :17:40.can get rid of aid completely? The aid has got to go. I think the
:17:41. > :17:48.donors are aware of it and we, the recipients, are also aware. That
:17:49. > :17:52.dependency cannot continue forever. We want the transitional period. You
:17:53. > :17:56.have made that clear. If you look at your means, 60% of foreign earnings
:17:57. > :18:02.come from tobacco production and I put it to you, that this has come
:18:03. > :18:07.with some consequences for you, of which you are aware. For example,
:18:08. > :18:12.one and a half million children work as labourers on the tobacco farms
:18:13. > :18:16.and that is according to the global health foundation figures in 2012
:18:17. > :18:19.and you don't dispute that. Is that something that is sustainable and is
:18:20. > :18:26.that a good way for you to make money? Children working on tobacco
:18:27. > :18:34.farms? We're going to stop that, it is true. We have problems with
:18:35. > :18:45.trafficking. We are trying to stop that and we will. Unfortunately,
:18:46. > :18:50.tobacco is the only commodity in the world that is not subject to
:18:51. > :18:53.international committee agreement. So the buyers are deciding how much
:18:54. > :19:00.they will pay and how much they're going to buy. They have absolute
:19:01. > :19:06.control. The country has absolutely no control. This year they have been
:19:07. > :19:12.buying less so our earnings went down by 8%. But do you want to see
:19:13. > :19:18.growth in your tobacco farming production, because I put it to you
:19:19. > :19:23.that this is something which, as you know, the head of the World Health
:19:24. > :19:26.organisation, she says this is a terrible industry and she would like
:19:27. > :19:30.to see the tobacco industry go out of business. She talks about
:19:31. > :19:38.children getting tobacco sickness, because of handling the tobacco
:19:39. > :19:42.plants. Yes. And this is responsible for communicable diseases and all
:19:43. > :19:49.the rest of it, but you are saying Malawi wants to rely on this trade?
:19:50. > :19:53.Know, I want to say that at the moment, that is the main income
:19:54. > :20:01.earner and we must get fair prices while we are diversifying -- no. We
:20:02. > :20:04.are building up agriculture and other things. I know it is a dying
:20:05. > :20:09.industry. What about sugar production? That is something you
:20:10. > :20:16.want to move towards but we hear reports of smallholders being
:20:17. > :20:22.evicted by wealthier owners. So when you do that, you need to make sure
:20:23. > :20:29.that land rights are honoured. Are you doing that? We're in the process
:20:30. > :20:35.of introducing new legislation in terms of land law. Let me come back
:20:36. > :20:40.to sugarcane, that is not quite true, whoever wrote that, we are
:20:41. > :20:47.moving toward sugarcane to innovation and what we are doing,
:20:48. > :20:54.there will be small time farmers who will be given a hectare each to grow
:20:55. > :21:00.sugarcane, ten hectares each, and they will be mid-level farmers --
:21:01. > :21:13.there will be mid-level farmers were given 14-15 hectares -- who are.
:21:14. > :21:20.That report is completely wrong. You are diversifying your props, as you
:21:21. > :21:23.said, but Land Net which is an NGO which defends people in Malawi says
:21:24. > :21:27.land grabbing is an issue in Malawi. In the past four years, thousands of
:21:28. > :21:34.farmers have lost land which benefits multinational companies.
:21:35. > :21:36.Who is grabbing? They are saying agricultural businesses accounting
:21:37. > :21:43.for the displacement of smalltime farmers. You do not accept that?
:21:44. > :21:47.Some of these civil society organizations, we have to be very
:21:48. > :22:00.careful, the way they analyse things. All land is leased from the
:22:01. > :22:12.government for a certain amount of time. We have restrictions, but...
:22:13. > :22:20.You are saying there are no cases like the one I have referred to?
:22:21. > :22:25.There are instances. Maybe there are instances of people being evicted
:22:26. > :22:29.but the government will take action. I will give you an example from
:22:30. > :22:34.August last year, someone named Peter said he lost three hectares
:22:35. > :22:39.which was his livelihood. He said now he is suffering because he works
:22:40. > :22:46.on other people's farms to earn living. This is from a legitimate
:22:47. > :22:51.publication? Yes. I would be careful. I won't go into it, but I
:22:52. > :22:56.think you should be careful with these publications. Would you
:22:57. > :22:59.investigate? Will you say, my government will make sure, whether
:23:00. > :23:03.you doubt this report are not, that there are not people like Peter, the
:23:04. > :23:07.person who has been quoted, who are going to suffer as a result of your
:23:08. > :23:13.government's policy to diversify in this way? Maybe he does exist, but
:23:14. > :23:17.if he does, we will investigate but this is the first time I'm hearing
:23:18. > :23:21.about it. Finally Mr President, people will say you just came to
:23:22. > :23:25.power over year ago and they want to see that President Peter Mutharika
:23:26. > :23:31.is series about the reforms to drive a corruption, he is series about
:23:32. > :23:34.diversifying the crop base and tried to demonstrate to the international
:23:35. > :23:36.community that good governance is happening. Are you confident you
:23:37. > :23:40.will be doing that quickly enough to make sure the people of Malawi can
:23:41. > :23:46.get the help they need and the development and progress they need?
:23:47. > :23:55.We are. I had the public service reform commission, and we have
:23:56. > :24:04.representatives in Kenya, New Zealand, Australia. I am confident,
:24:05. > :24:08.that we are going to turn the country around and that is why I am
:24:09. > :24:17.here. I am here because I'm going to bring investment. There are already
:24:18. > :24:22.investment coming in, lots of investment coming in. In a decade or
:24:23. > :24:25.so, Malawi will be a different country and I'm very excited about
:24:26. > :24:46.it. President Peter Mutharika, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.
:24:47. > :24:49.The rain from Storm Desmond may have long gone but some rivers
:24:50. > :24:54.in parts of the country can take a while to rise as the water floods
:24:55. > :24:57.Keep an eye on the floodline number: 034 5988 1188.