:00:12. > :00:26.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Sarah Montague.
:00:27. > :00:29.Namibia is rich in minerals and gemstones so is relatively
:00:30. > :00:32.prosperous with good economic growth. Yet it is one of the most
:00:33. > :00:34.unequal societies in the world. There is extreme poverty with many
:00:35. > :00:36.struggling to get enough food to survive. Hage Geingob declared war
:00:37. > :00:39.on poverty and inequality when he became president in March this year.
:00:40. > :00:41.Before that he had been Prime Minister for many of the 25 years
:00:42. > :01:13.since independence. So, what difference can he make now?
:01:14. > :01:23.Hage Geingob, welcome to HARDTalk. Thank you very much. For all of
:01:24. > :01:27.Namibia's relative wealth, the statistics on poverty are fairly
:01:28. > :01:32.alarming. A quarter of the population are living in poverty and
:01:33. > :01:42.according to the UN, more than 40% of all the billions are
:01:43. > :01:46.undernourished. -- Namibians. You declared war on poverty when he
:01:47. > :01:50.became president and you set up a new ministry to eradicate poverty.
:01:51. > :02:01.What's different is its making? Firstly, thankyou very much. -- What
:02:02. > :02:09.difference is it making? You said that we are rich in minerals, but we
:02:10. > :02:18.are poor. There is apartheid, there is inequality... When we got
:02:19. > :02:23.independence we had to reconcile the two warring parties. You cannot take
:02:24. > :02:32.from the rich and give it to the board. But I declared war when I was
:02:33. > :02:36.elected on poverty. -- poor. Extraordinary thing is that the
:02:37. > :02:43.employment rate now is pretty much the same it was at independence in
:02:44. > :02:52.1990. I do think so. 28- 30% still. Yeah. The word unemployment...
:02:53. > :02:59.Anybody who can have this and sell that is regarded as employed. In
:03:00. > :03:03.Namibia, people are working for the white people. They want to be
:03:04. > :03:11.employed by somebody. That is why anybody who does not have the
:03:12. > :03:19.liberty to sell is classified as unemployed. -- ability. OK, well,
:03:20. > :03:25.you, as I say, one of the things you did in order to get rid of the
:03:26. > :03:29.inequality and poverty was to set up this new ministry. That is why I am
:03:30. > :03:37.asking what's different is its making? It is early days, but what
:03:38. > :03:45.difference is it making and is going to make? -- what difference. There
:03:46. > :03:51.is a social pension. From 600 to 1000. That has made a big difference
:03:52. > :04:01.already. That is about maintaining 7%. Maintaining for children dumped
:04:02. > :04:05.by parents to older people. That has made a big difference to the
:04:06. > :04:14.happiness of older people. It is already the. It is there for eight
:04:15. > :04:27.months. -- there. We have set up the tone. We are drifting away from our
:04:28. > :04:33.oneness. We are becoming tribal African nations. My aim is to
:04:34. > :04:39.re-establish that we are one Namibia, one Nation. You talk about
:04:40. > :04:43.setting the tone. -- nation. You were maybe the first Prime Minister
:04:44. > :04:49.of Namibia. After years you came back again. What can you do now that
:04:50. > :05:00.you cannot have done then? I set up the public service. I am not saying
:05:01. > :05:04.you did nothing. We have a presidential system. By minister is
:05:05. > :05:09.just working under the president. -- Prime Minister. Where you frustrated
:05:10. > :05:20.by what you could not do? Not necessarily. We did what we could.
:05:21. > :05:26.Namibia has a stake is now. -- Namibia is a state now. There is a
:05:27. > :05:30.lot of hope that you can rejuvenate the country and make a difference.
:05:31. > :05:35.But you also come from the political class that has been in place for a
:05:36. > :05:44.long time. I am trying to establish and understand what you can do that
:05:45. > :05:48.is new. We have done a lot. We have lifted 500 people out of poverty in
:05:49. > :05:54.Namibia and we have done a lot to unite the people. And,
:05:55. > :06:01.infrastructure has been built, roads, hospitals... That has been
:06:02. > :06:08.done. Now, we will keep working on unity and infrastructure. I am
:06:09. > :06:15.trying to build prosperity. So, it is more of the same. That is why I
:06:16. > :06:25.am wondering... It is not supposed to be different. The wife and taking
:06:26. > :06:32.from the blacks, the land... You a continuity? Of course. If you have
:06:33. > :06:37.something good and you break it... We never hear about people fighting
:06:38. > :06:42.in Namibia, we have peace, we have elections every year, that is
:06:43. > :06:49.continuity. You have declared war on poverty. How do you defeated? Is it
:06:50. > :06:56.possible to eradicate poverty? People are saying... -- defeat it We
:06:57. > :07:01.have said we need to eradicate and even though some have said it is all
:07:02. > :07:08.right to have poor. We could get rid of it one day. But we are saying,
:07:09. > :07:15.let's first look at hunger. We are talking about basic income. We have
:07:16. > :07:20.set up a food bank. We don't feel we need to give everyone $100 and so
:07:21. > :07:29.on. We look to those who need it. All of those who come to us, we will
:07:30. > :07:33.roll out our programme to them. The solidarity tax, those who are
:07:34. > :07:38.wealthier will be taxed... We did not see solidarity tax. We talk
:07:39. > :07:42.about the disparity you are talking about greatly yourself. Namibia is
:07:43. > :07:47.the most unequal country in the world, you said to be so, how do we
:07:48. > :07:56.narrowed the gap? I didn't say the most. -- you said. What happens with
:07:57. > :08:01.the solidarity tax? I didn't say... I said we must do something. One of
:08:02. > :08:12.the proposals was a tax dot the i's and just trying to find out... --
:08:13. > :08:26.tax. -- I am just. One way is taxes. What do you savour? -- -- favour.
:08:27. > :08:29.Taxes. Many are critical of what you are doing and say you should be
:08:30. > :08:34.doing other things that the not building a new Parliament that costs
:08:35. > :08:40.70 million American dollars. -- things.. You should focus on
:08:41. > :08:51.unemployment and education. It has endowed. Firstly... -- been done.
:08:52. > :08:56.Unemployment is still high. I did not build the Parliament. We are a
:08:57. > :09:04.democracy. We need institutions in that. You must build them that you
:09:05. > :09:08.can use for democracy. Parliament is a legislated position. It belongs to
:09:09. > :09:18.all the parties. They can claim it is the. -- theirs. If they have
:09:19. > :09:27.their own budgets, talk to the speaker about it. You are making the
:09:28. > :09:31.point that because you are president you can tackle poverty. That is what
:09:32. > :09:37.I am focusing on. What you can do. You do not like the phrase
:09:38. > :09:48.solidarity tax, but will a tax on the wealthy big enough? I said, when
:09:49. > :09:55.you are declaring war you use all at your disposal. -- be enough. Why is
:09:56. > :10:11.everyone talking about his tax? Why's what you eat? -- Why? . --
:10:12. > :10:15.What is it?. Let's talk about the settlements, the third of the
:10:16. > :10:21.population, almost a third, is now in informal settlements. When the
:10:22. > :10:24.Pope was in Nairobi he talked of the dreadful injustice of urban
:10:25. > :10:31.exclusion, a new form of colonialism. He was talking about
:10:32. > :10:33.that type of informal settlement as being inflicted by minorities who
:10:34. > :10:40.cling to power and wealth and selfishly squander while growing
:10:41. > :10:47.majorities are forced to flee to abandon makeshift shacks. Do you
:10:48. > :10:52.think he is right? He is right about other countries, not Namibia. In
:10:53. > :10:57.Namibia you should know there is apartheid. People who are not
:10:58. > :11:02.allowed to move in their homeland. Now we have freedom. They can move
:11:03. > :11:09.freely to settle anywhere. That is what is causing that. You cannot
:11:10. > :11:17.grab them... You would ET first to say they are being pushed out. We
:11:18. > :11:23.have a systematic approach. -- be the. He was also talking about those
:11:24. > :11:39.who are wealthy and who can no longer see them, who are an opulent
:11:40. > :11:49.society and in anaesthetised by wealth. -- society. You are
:11:50. > :11:52.questioning my solidarity tax when I am trying to talk about that. That
:11:53. > :11:59.is why I save all Namibians should care for the brothers. -- say. If
:12:00. > :12:04.you can do something, care for them. So in a way, they could would have
:12:05. > :12:18.been speaking about that he didn't go the. -- that. -- there. Eyelid in
:12:19. > :12:28.York city, there are ghettos everywhere. -- I live in New. UNE
:12:29. > :12:39.first Namibian leader to declare your wealth and you have shown your
:12:40. > :12:47.wealth. -- You are the. Your network is in the region of 7 billion US
:12:48. > :12:54.dollars. -- net worth. It showed the difference between those who are
:12:55. > :13:01.wealthy and does one not. -- those who are not. I want people to show
:13:02. > :13:08.how much money they have. I was not obliged to do that. Instead of
:13:09. > :13:16.welcoming you are questioning and. That is what it seems like. -- it.
:13:17. > :13:24.What is 7 million? It is a question... That his assets, not
:13:25. > :13:29.cash. I bought the land when I came here. Land that was stolen from me.
:13:30. > :13:35.I had to buy it. I would have grabbed it, but I bought it. You
:13:36. > :13:39.will know there are other politicians in Namibia is saying, it
:13:40. > :13:46.is all well and good you can do this when you have made your wealth, how
:13:47. > :13:50.do we make ours? It was declared. How do you know? Do you expect your
:13:51. > :13:57.fellow politicians to declare in the months ahead? I cannot judge them.
:13:58. > :14:05.This is... Firstly, I say we must think of everybody. I have been
:14:06. > :14:10.working for 25 years. It is hypocrisy. They are saying, we do
:14:11. > :14:18.not make money. If you steal it, yes. If you have it, it is your
:14:19. > :14:21.money. Declare it, that is what I am saying. Everybody should be public.
:14:22. > :14:35.And if they don't do it voluntarily? You say we do not have a load yet,
:14:36. > :14:45.to introduce one's it should be required. You would like a little. I
:14:46. > :14:49.have first set the example. You have said there is pressure for land
:14:50. > :14:54.reform because of the apartheid years. The pace of land reform to
:14:55. > :14:59.not happen at the speedy you would have liked. There is tremendous
:15:00. > :15:02.pressure from groups like affirmative repositioning who are
:15:03. > :15:08.calling for mass appropriation in July in the summer. You hope that
:15:09. > :15:16.off, but you do need to deliver on land reform. There are people who do
:15:17. > :15:22.know I piece. -- like a piece. They are happy if there would be chaos,
:15:23. > :15:27.and there are many supporting that group. I asked them what their
:15:28. > :15:41.problem was. The issue is known by all of us. We know the causes and
:15:42. > :15:50.history of that. We disagree. You do not go to war because of that. What
:15:51. > :15:58.is the answer? Do they have a case, and you have even said, then need
:15:59. > :16:04.for land is genuine. Yes, but I also said people who own land, claiming
:16:05. > :16:17.stolen land because they are millions and were born there. --
:16:18. > :16:25.Nibley beings. -- Nibley -- Namibians. CU will protect those
:16:26. > :16:30.farmers who have lent now, irrespective of what happened in
:16:31. > :16:37.generations past. How do you satisfy the likes of affirmative response,
:16:38. > :16:42.who say we need land? They need land to build houses. We are doing that.
:16:43. > :16:49.We have been doing that. We are clearing the area. If you look at
:16:50. > :16:53.our manifesto, it is there. I pointed that out, we are together on
:16:54. > :16:59.this, but we must have law and order. You said it is easy to
:17:00. > :17:03.destroy what you did not yield, but when you are involved in the
:17:04. > :17:11.struggle, it is not easy. Do you think the young are too hotheaded
:17:12. > :17:16.about the issue? No, we are together, not against them will stop
:17:17. > :17:22.Namibians are moving together. But we will do things in an orderly way
:17:23. > :17:28.into not destroyed our piece. Let's turn to China, the city is the third
:17:29. > :17:33.brightest investor after Germany and the United States in Namibia. --
:17:34. > :17:39.third largest. Someone who lived at the Chinese employment practices
:17:40. > :17:46.in's found that the think tank in the country said China is frequently
:17:47. > :17:59.paying as little as one third of the legal wage. For some, this feels
:18:00. > :18:06.like a new form of colonialism. We went to talk to the Chinese. I went
:18:07. > :18:10.and talked to them. We do not know what is happening with your
:18:11. > :18:20.companies. They are owed paying outdoors -- they are not paying
:18:21. > :18:32.people a proper wage. There are some private companies who go there, so
:18:33. > :18:37.you have nose. Kicks laws. There are good and bad Chinese. The same way
:18:38. > :18:43.they think they're out good and bad Namibians. We talk to them and they
:18:44. > :18:58.have improved. They have improved? We talk to them. Is it a matter of
:18:59. > :19:04.enforcing the laws. There are others as well. Is it down to enforcing the
:19:05. > :19:09.laws? The Chinese are not worse than anyone else? They weren't worse
:19:10. > :19:19.until we talk to them. And now they are not worse? I don't know. Others
:19:20. > :19:23.are doing the wrong things still. But the Foreign Minister of China
:19:24. > :19:27.came and talked in English and announced that they must obey
:19:28. > :19:36.Namibian laws. It is for us to enforce it. Will you now in force
:19:37. > :19:41.the laws? It is all well and good having a low, but you must enforce
:19:42. > :19:46.it. Isn't that important? If you want to tackle the poverty we are
:19:47. > :19:53.talking about, that is one way to do it. I know how to do it. We will do
:19:54. > :19:58.it our way. People think you are being too sympathetic to the Chinese
:19:59. > :20:07.because you are so dependent on them. That is not true. You would be
:20:08. > :20:14.happy to enforce the laws? We did not complain about that. The Chinese
:20:15. > :20:24.do not have all the property. But we do this in a peaceful way. People
:20:25. > :20:32.will not be happy about that. The British especially. So the British
:20:33. > :20:45.who are there not... Are they not paying the minimum wage? Why not
:20:46. > :20:54.enforce the world, then? All of the laws are in force. According to the
:20:55. > :21:01.key Namibian newspaper, in January, there was a letter sent from
:21:02. > :21:04.Namibian's and buses to China to the Foreign Minister talking about a
:21:05. > :21:13.Chinese delegation that was visiting the country to find a way forward to
:21:14. > :21:25.build a naval base in Walvis Bay. Will China build a naval base in
:21:26. > :21:32.Namibian? If the Chinese come, the Americans are asking the same thing.
:21:33. > :21:37.Is Namibia going to allow China to build a naval base? If the
:21:38. > :21:42.government decides. But we're not there yet. You are jumping the gun.
:21:43. > :21:46.The plan is to have the naval architects and clinical staff have a
:21:47. > :21:56.feasibility study. That will go ahead? I do not know anything about
:21:57. > :22:00.it. I'm talking about principle. The Americans are interested as well.
:22:01. > :22:04.Are you saying you don't know if there is a proposal for China to
:22:05. > :22:15.build an ever base in Namibian? The proposal never came to us. I heard
:22:16. > :22:19.about it. I know about it. In that letter, they talked about the
:22:20. > :22:25.Chinese delegation coming after match the 21st this year, which was
:22:26. > :22:35.the money he became president. -- the month you became. Do you believe
:22:36. > :22:40.the letter? I do not believe it. Not only the Chinese, the Americans came
:22:41. > :22:44.as well. But do they want to build a naval base? I don't know, but they
:22:45. > :22:51.want something. Would you mind? The principal of China leading a naval
:22:52. > :22:59.base in Namibian, do you mind? I don't know anything about that. If
:23:00. > :23:04.they were to do it in a sovereign country like Namibian, what would be
:23:05. > :23:11.your consent? You would not have a consent? No, that would be yours's
:23:12. > :23:19.it is my country, it is not you, it is me. How does it affect you? How
:23:20. > :23:31.would it affect the people of maybe -- Namibia? It is for Namibians, not
:23:32. > :23:36.you. Should Namibians be aware of a proposal...? It will be done by
:23:37. > :23:41.democracy. There will be no secrets. There will be no secrets. So they
:23:42. > :23:47.have not asked yet? The moment they do, you will go public with it? Yes.
:23:48. > :23:51.President Geingob, thank you for coming on programmer. Thank you. --
:23:52. > :23:54.HARDtalk.