:00:10. > :00:18.Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk from all slow with me,
:00:19. > :00:23.Stephen Sackur. My guest is here to receive the Nobel Peace Prize.
:00:24. > :00:31.Ouided Bouchamaoui is one of four recipients representing Tunisia's
:00:32. > :00:35.national dialogue Quartet, a group of civil society organizations that
:00:36. > :00:42.did much to rescue Tunisia from political chaos a couple of years
:00:43. > :00:46.ago. The hope is that Tunisia's branded inclusive politics could be
:00:47. > :01:16.a model for other Middle Eastern states but is that realistic?
:01:17. > :01:23.Ouided Bouchamaoui, welcome to HARDtalk and many congratulations. I
:01:24. > :01:29.have to start by asking you how much of a surprise it was when you heard
:01:30. > :01:37.that your movement had won the Nobel Peace Prize? We were, all of us, in
:01:38. > :01:43.the quartet, we are very proud because we did something which was
:01:44. > :01:53.an exception. Something which was very exciting for us to have this
:01:54. > :01:57.news, because Tunisia is a small country and an old country and we
:01:58. > :02:03.will be a famous country. Do you see it as recognition of the importance
:02:04. > :02:09.of Tunisia? Of course, yes. It is recognition because it is something
:02:10. > :02:15.that was just done by Tunisia. We began the revolution. A safe and
:02:16. > :02:23.soft revolution and we survived our democratic transition. It is quite
:02:24. > :02:27.different. For us, we are proud to be Tunisians and we are proud to
:02:28. > :02:31.have succeeded in this. Let's go back to the story of this national
:02:32. > :02:36.dialogue quartet because it really came about in the summer of 2013
:02:37. > :02:41.when Tunisia was facing a period of real political crisis. You had a
:02:42. > :02:47.government which was dominated by an Islamist party, there were protests
:02:48. > :02:53.on the street and a lot of unrest and political assassinations, did
:02:54. > :03:04.you feel, at that time, that Tunisia was getting very close to civil
:03:05. > :03:09.strife or maybe even civil war? If I may be frank speaking with you,
:03:10. > :03:15.yes. Yes because there was confusion, we are not used to
:03:16. > :03:30.terrorism or assassination in Tunisia. We are in open country and
:03:31. > :03:35.we are tolerant people. So when the second assassination happened in
:03:36. > :03:41.Tunisia, everyone within the street -- was in the street. For this
:03:42. > :03:48.reason, we met together to avoid this disaster, this civil war in
:03:49. > :03:52.Tunisia. And when you say we met together and decided to do something
:03:53. > :03:58.about it, you are talking about you representing the business, the
:03:59. > :04:01.industrial federation, we're talking about the trade union movement, we
:04:02. > :04:07.are talking about the lawyers and human rights activists? Yes. There
:04:08. > :04:14.are many different interests there so how did you all come together in
:04:15. > :04:23.one movement? First we began with the union. It was in 2012 when we
:04:24. > :04:29.had many strikes, many Citians in Tunisia. We said we had to be
:04:30. > :04:32.together at the end of the day. After the second assassination, we
:04:33. > :04:40.said we had to find a solution together. You know, we're the fourth
:04:41. > :04:47.oldest organisation Tunisia and they depend on us. The point I am making
:04:48. > :04:52.is, the head of the trade union federation and you, the head of the
:04:53. > :04:56.bosses federation were traditional enemies, in a way. You would be
:04:57. > :05:08.negotiating about wages, conditions, and often you were fighting each
:05:09. > :05:11.other. Not enemies. Each one of us defend's one another. Now but you
:05:12. > :05:18.had many disputes with the trade union in your time. In my time?
:05:19. > :05:22.Never. We are together because I got this idea to call on him and I
:05:23. > :05:27.invited him with his board member to come to our head office and it was
:05:28. > :05:36.very successful. It was strange for everybody but we began and we
:05:37. > :05:44.observe many problems. But now, if there is a difference between us,
:05:45. > :05:49.each one has to defend its mantra. Know, we cannot have companies
:05:50. > :05:57.without workers and we cannot have workers without bosses, so if we
:05:58. > :06:02.need to export or invest or create jobs, we need both of them. So we
:06:03. > :06:18.have to be together. I mean, our future is together. But of course, I
:06:19. > :06:23.mean, we can't agree on all things, but... You have to trust each
:06:24. > :06:30.other? Yes. And you have found a way to trust? We can do it, yes. What
:06:31. > :06:34.fascinates me is when you can together, the workers, the
:06:35. > :06:36.employers, the lawyers and human rights people, you all came together
:06:37. > :06:44.and decided to intervene in politics. The government had a
:06:45. > :06:50.mandate but you went to the leadership, including the Prime
:06:51. > :06:54.Minister, and you said to him, Mr Prime Minister, you are going to
:06:55. > :07:01.have to resign. You are going to have to allow interim government to
:07:02. > :07:04.take over and negotiate with us on a transition to a new politics within
:07:05. > :07:12.you Constitution. But we were not alone. Because when we fixed our
:07:13. > :07:21.roadmap, we got the political parties with us, they signed this
:07:22. > :07:26.roadmap. Together we decided to find the right way for Tunisia. We
:07:27. > :07:32.listened to the opposition, we listened to the people who had the
:07:33. > :07:37.power, and we did this in conference with them because as a civil society
:07:38. > :07:45.organisation, we don't have the legitimacy to say to the Prime
:07:46. > :07:49.Minister to resign. That is my point, in a way. It wasn't
:07:50. > :07:52.extraordinary thing because, for all of your influence in Tunisia because
:07:53. > :07:56.you represent the businesses and the employers and the same with the
:07:57. > :07:59.trade unions and the lawyers, you didn't have a democratic mandate but
:08:00. > :08:08.you felt you had a duty to intervene. We have the mandate of
:08:09. > :08:16.Tunisians. We are a very old organisation and we did a lot for
:08:17. > :08:21.our country. We got the support of parties and to the support of
:08:22. > :08:27.media. We got the support of civil societies, the other civil society
:08:28. > :08:35.organizations and the support of Tunisia and together... They pushed
:08:36. > :08:39.us. Was there a parallel with Egypt? At the very same time that you were
:08:40. > :08:42.doing your intervention, they had chaos in Egypt and the Army
:08:43. > :08:50.interviewed and in what many people called a coup d'etat -- intervened
:08:51. > :08:53.in, to take power away from the Muslim Brotherhood and I wonder if
:08:54. > :08:57.you believe there can ever be a marriage between political Islam and
:08:58. > :09:01.genuine democracy and freedom? Do you think the two can go together?
:09:02. > :09:09.For me, we have to separate between them. Islam is a tolerant religion,
:09:10. > :09:18.what we see now, even the terrorism and extremism everywhere, that is
:09:19. > :09:25.not Islam. We are aghast at all of this extremism. What do you call
:09:26. > :09:30.extremism weighs do you call any party that calls for Sharia law, for
:09:31. > :09:39.example, to be the law of the state, DU called that extremism? For
:09:40. > :09:51.us as Tunisians, our Constitution has a separation and we cannot apply
:09:52. > :09:56.Sharia in Tunisia. We respect Islam, the religion of Tunisia is Islam,
:09:57. > :10:03.but we are a democratic and civil society. I think during the
:10:04. > :10:12.negotiations of the Constitution, one party wanted to make it quite
:10:13. > :10:19.clear that Islam was the driving force for the law and Tunisia and
:10:20. > :10:25.you said no? Tunisia refused. So what does that tell us, looking not
:10:26. > :10:31.just at the region, about the role of Islam in any democracy in the
:10:32. > :10:35.Middle East? Are you saying to me that you don't believe that the
:10:36. > :10:43.Muslim Brotherhood, for example, can ever be a genuinely democratic
:10:44. > :10:47.movement? I don't think so. Because if we are not open-minded and don't
:10:48. > :10:52.listen to each other, if we want to force people to practise something
:10:53. > :11:03.that we don't like, we cannot assume it will not be difficult. For me, I
:11:04. > :11:15.am proud to be Muslim but we can take the good things from Islam. Now
:11:16. > :11:24.we are more open. We have to be more democratic than the other way
:11:25. > :11:30.because, let's call it to the rogue way of Islam, not the good Islam,
:11:31. > :11:34.often takes control. It is very interesting because in your national
:11:35. > :11:41.dialogue quartet receiving this in your miss recognition of the Nobel
:11:42. > :11:44.Peace Prize, -- enormous, one of your members said after winning the
:11:45. > :11:51.prize said the lesson here is that everything can be solved I
:11:52. > :11:54.dialogue. Yes. It seems to me that not everything can be solved by
:11:55. > :11:59.dialogue because you still have depolarization in Tunisia. You have
:12:00. > :12:03.Islamists, some would say you have extremists and jihadists, and your
:12:04. > :12:11.form of dialogue will never reach them. You can't reach out to them.
:12:12. > :12:19.There are not so many of those people, the extremists. The majority
:12:20. > :12:28.of Tunisia are not like this, and when we succeed with the social
:12:29. > :12:31.dialogue and political dialogue, we continue to find solutions for
:12:32. > :12:37.extremism and terrorism, so I agree with him. The question is then if
:12:38. > :12:42.dialogue doesn't work with the real extremists, and we have seen in
:12:43. > :12:46.Tunisia in the last few months, in the last year, we have seen terrible
:12:47. > :12:52.terror attacks of the Bardo Museum, the gunman on the beach at sixth, in
:12:53. > :12:56.the last couple of weeks we have seen this suicide bombing of
:12:57. > :13:03.presidential guards. How do you believe that Tunisia can control and
:13:04. > :13:12.defeat the jihadists insider country? -- inside your country?
:13:13. > :13:24.First, it doesn't happen just in Tunisia. We saw attacks in Paris, in
:13:25. > :13:29.the United States, in Mali, everywhere. It is international and
:13:30. > :13:33.everyone has to fight it. Second, Tunisia is not responsible for this.
:13:34. > :13:39.We are suffering from this terrorism, but we are not
:13:40. > :13:44.responsible, because what is happening in Libya, the situation in
:13:45. > :13:52.Libya is a disaster for us. And the community in Tunisia should do
:13:53. > :13:58.something for this. For us, even when we had the two assassinations,
:13:59. > :14:08.or the attacks in the Bardo Museum or in Sousse, we have to continue to
:14:09. > :14:17.do this. I hear what you say about this being
:14:18. > :14:23.a product of regional instability, but Tunisia has a big problem. It is
:14:24. > :14:30.said 4000 Tunisian fighters are now with Daesh, so-called Islamic State,
:14:31. > :14:34.in Syria. Another 1500 Tunisian jihadists are in Libya. Tunisia does
:14:35. > :14:39.have its own extremist problem. I wonder whether you would accept that
:14:40. > :14:46.that's partly because there is deep economic inequality in Tunisia... Of
:14:47. > :14:51.course, yes. I've been to Tunisia and a town where the uprising in
:14:52. > :14:54.2011 began. I've talked to young people and they say there's no
:14:55. > :15:02.chance of a job. The Tunisian elite does not listen to us. And you're a
:15:03. > :15:08.member the Tunisian elite. Tunisia and said together in one voice, we
:15:09. > :15:13.want jobs and we want freedom. We have freedom in Tunisia, but we
:15:14. > :15:24.cannot get the dignity without jobs. Now they are waiting. I say we
:15:25. > :15:31.are not responsible because those people are training in Libya. Maybe
:15:32. > :15:35.they are training elsewhere but where does their anger come from?
:15:36. > :15:41.They are waiting for hope, for a chance to get a job and they are
:15:42. > :15:48.still waiting. We don't do for them and we didn't realise their dream,
:15:49. > :15:53.how to get jobs. Because first of all we have big problems
:15:54. > :16:03.economically in Tunisia. We have 54% of our economy coming from...
:16:04. > :16:11.Economy, because there's no state in Libya, so goods, arms and everything
:16:12. > :16:19.can enter a Tunisia the wrong way. Of course, when we don't have a big
:16:20. > :16:23.capacity financially, we cannot do by ourselves. For this I say we need
:16:24. > :16:35.the support of the international community to help us to ensure
:16:36. > :16:37.security and for investment. With respect, you do have support from
:16:38. > :16:44.the IMF, support on security issues... Not so much. That's
:16:45. > :16:49.concrete actions. Not so much. Really? Because we are not
:16:50. > :16:53.responsible for what has happened in Libya. But some people would say all
:16:54. > :17:01.of your answers of wheat on key issue. That is... I mean, you are
:17:02. > :17:05.from an elite family, that runs big businesses in Tunisia. You have to
:17:06. > :17:08.accept that there is endemic corruption in your country. The
:17:09. > :17:13.economic elite is accused by the World Bank amongst others of crony
:17:14. > :17:17.capitalism. "The regulatory system that allowed the corruption remains
:17:18. > :17:23.largely in place. It perpetuates the social exclusion, it generates deep,
:17:24. > :17:29.social injustice". The revolution was in 2011. Why is that World Bank
:17:30. > :17:38.report being written in 2014? Cause we are still in a transition period.
:17:39. > :17:42.-- because. We got our democratic transition, but now we don't have
:17:43. > :17:48.the economic transition. We are now waiting to do some reforms, to
:17:49. > :17:54.invest more, to have security. So, even the corruption I think if we
:17:55. > :18:01.succeed on this, and we are on the way... With respect, it is as bad
:18:02. > :18:06.today as it was under Ben Ali. Tunisia has dropped down the index
:18:07. > :18:14.of countries that are perceived to be corrupt. Why is that? As I said,
:18:15. > :18:21.we are in a transitional period. We are now building together all the
:18:22. > :18:25.institutions. When we have freedom, we will have better governance,
:18:26. > :18:31.better transparency and freedom in the media. So we will find a
:18:32. > :18:35.solution, but we cannot find a solution now for all our past
:18:36. > :18:41.problems. But it is urgent, isn't it? Got these young people in the
:18:42. > :18:46.rule areas, the poorest of the poor, they are still very angry. -- rural
:18:47. > :18:50.areas. Not because there is corruption, they are angry because
:18:51. > :18:56.they don't have jobs. They are angry about both things, surely. They are
:18:57. > :19:02.pretty angry when they see the -- the elite doing so well in Tunis.
:19:03. > :19:09.Yes. They are still waiting. Even for our government, now the
:19:10. > :19:18.government focused all of its efforts to the security powers. We
:19:19. > :19:24.don't invest more in those areas and really it's a big problem. For this
:19:25. > :19:34.we say that we need to get an economic dialogue together, to
:19:35. > :19:39.have... To push reforms. To have a social climate in Tunisia and an
:19:40. > :19:46.investment climate. A fair investment climate. We need to
:19:47. > :19:52.sacrifice. Talking of the investment climate, how damaging were the
:19:53. > :19:56.attacks on the beach and the museum? How damaging have they been on
:19:57. > :20:02.Tunisia's ability to attract foreign investment and tourists? It has a
:20:03. > :20:10.big, really big, effect. Just for tourism. I think it was 10% of your
:20:11. > :20:24.GDP. 7%. Tourism is very important for us. We have 300 sunny days every
:20:25. > :20:32.year. Now we are suffering, some areas are suffering. The reason,
:20:33. > :20:39.hotels, and all other areas, handicrafts. Now really we have a
:20:40. > :20:48.big problem. But what we can say to all people, I mean, terrorism is
:20:49. > :20:55.everywhere. Problems are everywhere. So you have to trust us. We are
:20:56. > :20:59.doing our best to find a solution. Let me ask you about Tunisia's role
:21:00. > :21:04.in the region. You were the birthplace of the uprisings in a
:21:05. > :21:08.sense, in 2011. You believe that this recognition with the Nobel
:21:09. > :21:14.Peace Prize carries with it some sort of message for neighbouring
:21:15. > :21:19.states in the Middle East and Arab region? -- do you believe. Do you
:21:20. > :21:24.think things can be learnt from your civil society experiment in
:21:25. > :21:31.Tunisia? I don't know, I can't say it will give lessons to others. But
:21:32. > :21:35.it will be a good experience and we can learn from these experiences,
:21:36. > :21:39.because we succeeded because we listened to each other. One lesson
:21:40. > :21:45.involves gender politics as well. Here you sit with me, the head of
:21:46. > :21:51.Tunisia's business and industrial federation. I have heard that you
:21:52. > :21:55.were even asked if he would like to be Prime Minister at one point. Is
:21:56. > :22:05.that true? Twice. Twice? What did you say? Once when we were in
:22:06. > :22:08.dialogue, because there was confusion and we didn't find a
:22:09. > :22:16.solution and we didn't find a candidate. So most of them asked me
:22:17. > :22:22.to be Prime Minister. I said no, I could not accept. The second when we
:22:23. > :22:30.elected Alp president -- our president. He called me and said he
:22:31. > :22:36.was elected by 1 million Tunisian women. So I suggest you be the Prime
:22:37. > :22:42.Minister. You could speak for all Tunisian women. Yes. It would have
:22:43. > :22:50.been a heck of an opportunity. Why didn't you say yes? First, I said to
:22:51. > :22:57.him that I could not take the post because I have to choose ministers
:22:58. > :23:07.between four parties. Second, I have the governance of my colleagues. So,
:23:08. > :23:13.to be in this organisation... It is too early for me to do that. To put
:23:14. > :23:18.it bluntly, do you think Tunisia, maybe this is a question for the
:23:19. > :23:23.wider Arab world as well, do you think your country is ready to be
:23:24. > :23:28.led by a woman? And to be really accepting of gender in quality at
:23:29. > :23:34.all levels? Of course, guess. Of course, yes. Women are half the
:23:35. > :23:45.population. We have all the rights and all the duties. And people
:23:46. > :23:57.accept women. The first judge is from Tunisia. The first doctor. We
:23:58. > :24:03.are already the first ones to accept it. Really. We will have to end
:24:04. > :24:07.there. But I am delighted to say that you will also have to accept
:24:08. > :24:10.the Nobel Peace Prize. Congratulations on more time, Ouided
:24:11. > :24:39.Bouchamaoui, and thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:40. > :24:42.Well, there has been further rainfall in Cumbria but the rain has
:24:43. > :24:47.been clearing through in recent hours and it's heading southwards.
:24:48. > :24:50.In fact, over the next few days, including today, most
:24:51. > :24:54.of the rain will be across southern parts of the UK for a change.