:00:00. > :00:14.Welcome to this special edition of HARDtalk on the road from
:00:15. > :00:30.My guess is here to receive the Nobel peace prize. He is one of four
:00:31. > :00:35.recipients representing Tunisia's national dialogue Quartet, a group
:00:36. > :00:38.of civil society organisations that did much to rescue Tunisia from
:00:39. > :00:45.political chaos a couple of years ago. Now the hope is that Tunisia's
:00:46. > :00:46.brand of inclusive politics could be a model for other Middle Eastern
:00:47. > :01:13.states. But is that realistic? Ouided Bouchamaoui, welcome to
:01:14. > :01:17.HARDtalk and many congratulations. I have to start by asking you how
:01:18. > :01:21.much of a surprise it was when you heard that your movement
:01:22. > :01:29.had won the Nobel Peace Prize? We were, all of us, in the quartet,
:01:30. > :01:33.we are very proud because we did It is something
:01:34. > :01:43.which was very exciting for us to have this news, because Tunisia is
:01:44. > :01:47.a small country and an old country Do you see it as recognition
:01:48. > :01:56.of the importance of Tunisia? It is recognition
:01:57. > :02:00.because it is something that was A safe and soft revolution
:02:01. > :02:10.and we succeeded For us, we are proud to be Tunisians
:02:11. > :02:21.and we are proud to have succeeded Let's go back to the story of this
:02:22. > :02:26.national dialogue quartet because it really came about in the summer
:02:27. > :02:31.of 2013 when Tunisia was facing You had a government which was
:02:32. > :02:41.dominated by the Ennahda, the Islamist party, there were protests
:02:42. > :02:44.on the street and a lot of unrest and political assassinations, did
:02:45. > :02:47.you feel, at that time, that Tunisia was getting very close to civil
:02:48. > :02:55.strife or maybe even civil war? If I may be frank speaking with you,
:02:56. > :03:01.yes. Yes, because there was confusion,
:03:02. > :03:06.people were shocked. We are not used to terrorism
:03:07. > :03:13.or assassination in Tunisia. We are an open country
:03:14. > :03:20.and we are tolerant people. So when the second assassination
:03:21. > :03:25.happened in Tunisia, We had just reached the disaster
:03:26. > :03:35.in Tunisia. For this reason, we met together to
:03:36. > :03:40.avoid this disaster, And when you say we met together
:03:41. > :03:47.and decided to do something about it, you are talking about you
:03:48. > :03:51.representing the business, the industrial federation, we're talking
:03:52. > :03:54.about the trade union movement, we are talking about the lawyers
:03:55. > :04:00.and human rights activists? Yes. There are many different interests
:04:01. > :04:03.there, so how did you all come It was in 2012 when we had many
:04:04. > :04:14.strikes, many sit-ins in Tunisia. We said we had to be
:04:15. > :04:24.together to deal with it. After the second assassination,
:04:25. > :04:27.we said we had to find You know,
:04:28. > :04:31.we're the fourth oldest organisation The point I am making is,
:04:32. > :04:42.Hussein Abassi, the head of the Trade Union Federation, and you,
:04:43. > :04:45.the head of the bosses federation, You would be negotiating
:04:46. > :04:52.about wages, conditions, and often Not now, but you had many disputes
:04:53. > :05:06.with the trade union in your time. We are together because I got this
:05:07. > :05:13.idea to call on him and I invited him with his board member to come to
:05:14. > :05:18.our head office and it was strange for everybody but we began
:05:19. > :05:25.and we observed many problems. But now,
:05:26. > :05:30.if there is a difference between us, No, we cannot have companies without
:05:31. > :05:46.workers and we cannot have workers without bosses,
:05:47. > :05:54.so if we need to export or invest or But of course, I mean, we can't
:05:55. > :06:04.agree on all things, but... When we trust people, we can do it,
:06:05. > :06:23.yes. What fascinates me is
:06:24. > :06:25.because you came together, the workers, the employers,
:06:26. > :06:28.the lawyers and human rights people, you all came together and decided
:06:29. > :06:35.to intervene in politics. The government had a mandate but you
:06:36. > :06:39.went to the leadership, including the Prime Minister Laarayedh, and
:06:40. > :06:45.you said to him, Mr Prime Minister, You are going to have to allow
:06:46. > :06:51.an interim government to take over and negotiate with us
:06:52. > :06:53.on a transition to a new politics Because when we fixed our roadmap,
:06:54. > :07:11.we got the political parties with Together we decided to find
:07:12. > :07:17.the right way for Tunisia. We listened to the opposition,
:07:18. > :07:23.we listened to the people who had the power, and we did this
:07:24. > :07:27.in conference with them because we, as a civil society organisation,
:07:28. > :07:32.we don't have the legitimacy to say It was an extraordinary thing
:07:33. > :07:45.because, for all of your influence in Tunisia, because you represent
:07:46. > :07:48.the businesses and the employers and the same with the trade unions
:07:49. > :07:51.and the lawyers, you didn't have a democratic mandate, but you felt
:07:52. > :07:56.you had a duty to intervene. We are a very old organisation
:07:57. > :08:07.and we did a lot for our country. We got the support of parties
:08:08. > :08:16.and the support of media. We got the support of civil
:08:17. > :08:19.societies, the other civil society organizations and the support
:08:20. > :08:21.of Tunisian women and together... At the very same time that you
:08:22. > :08:36.were making your intervention... They had chaos in Egypt and the Army
:08:37. > :08:40.intervened in what many people called a coup d'etat to take power
:08:41. > :08:43.away from the Muslim Brotherhood and I wonder if you believe there can
:08:44. > :08:46.ever be a marriage between political Islam and genuine democracy
:08:47. > :08:49.and freedom? Do you think For me,
:08:50. > :08:59.we have to separate between them. Islam is a tolerant religion,
:09:00. > :09:04.what we see now, even the terrorism and extremism
:09:05. > :09:06.everywhere, that is not Islam. We are aghast at all
:09:07. > :09:13.of this extremism. Do you call any party that calls
:09:14. > :09:22.for Sharia law, for example, to be the law of the state,
:09:23. > :09:26.do you call that extremism? For us as Tunisians,
:09:27. > :09:36.we are safe because our Constitution is too clear and we cannot apply
:09:37. > :09:39.Sharia in Tunisia. We respect Islam, the religion
:09:40. > :09:44.of Tunisia is Islam, but we are I think during the negotiations
:09:45. > :10:00.of the Constitution, Ennahda, for example,
:10:01. > :10:07.wanted to make it quite clear that Islam was the driving force for
:10:08. > :10:10.the law in Tunisia and you said no? Looking at the region, not just
:10:11. > :10:24.Tunisia, about the role of Islam in Are you saying to me that you don't
:10:25. > :10:31.believe that the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, can ever be
:10:32. > :10:36.a genuinely democratic movement? Because
:10:37. > :10:41.if we are not open-minded and don't listen to each other, if we want to
:10:42. > :10:45.force people to practise something that we don't like, we cannot
:10:46. > :10:51.assume, so it will be difficult. For me,
:10:52. > :10:54.I am proud to be Muslim but we can Now, in this century,
:10:55. > :11:09.we are more open. We have to be more democratic than
:11:10. > :11:15.the other way because, they use, let's call it to the rogue way
:11:16. > :11:20.of Islam, not the good Islam. It is very interesting because
:11:21. > :11:26.in your national dialogue quartet receiving this enormous recognition
:11:27. > :11:31.of the Nobel Peace Prize, one of your members, the leader
:11:32. > :11:34.of the Lawyers Association, Mohamed Mahfoud,
:11:35. > :11:40.said after winning the prize, the lesson here is that everything
:11:41. > :11:43.can be solved by dialogue. It seems to me that not everything
:11:44. > :11:50.can be solved by dialogue, because you still have deep
:11:51. > :11:54.polarization in Tunisia. You have Islamists,
:11:55. > :11:59.some would say you have extremists and jihadists, and your form
:12:00. > :12:03.of dialogue will never reach them. There are not so many
:12:04. > :12:09.of those people, the extremists. The majority of Tunisia is not
:12:10. > :12:14.like this, and when we succeed with the social dialogue
:12:15. > :12:20.and political dialogue, we continue to find solutions for extremism
:12:21. > :12:27.and terrorism, so I agree with him. The question is then if dialogue
:12:28. > :12:32.doesn't work with the real extremists, and we have seen in
:12:33. > :12:36.Tunisia in the last few months, in the last year, we have seen terrible
:12:37. > :12:42.terror attacks of the Bardo Museum, the gunman on the beach at Sousse,
:12:43. > :12:46.in the last couple of weeks we have seen this suicide
:12:47. > :12:52.bombing of presidential guards. How do you believe that Tunisia can
:12:53. > :12:57.control and defeat First,
:12:58. > :13:09.it doesn't happen just in Tunisia. We saw attacks in Paris, in the
:13:10. > :13:16.United States, in Mali, everywhere. It is international
:13:17. > :13:23.and everyone has to fight it. Second, Tunisia is not
:13:24. > :13:32.responsible for this. We are suffering
:13:33. > :13:35.from this terrorism, but we are not responsible, because what is
:13:36. > :13:37.happening in Libya, the situation And the community in Tunisia
:13:38. > :13:42.should do something for this. For us, even when we had the two
:13:43. > :13:45.assassinations, or the attacks in the Bardo Museum or in Sousse,
:13:46. > :14:11.we have to continue to do this. I hear what you say about this being
:14:12. > :14:14.a product of regional instability, It is said 4,000 Tunisian fighters
:14:15. > :14:26.are now with Daesh, Another 1,500 Tunisian
:14:27. > :14:29.jihadists are in Libya. Tunisia does have
:14:30. > :14:31.its own extremist problem. I wonder
:14:32. > :14:33.whether you would accept that that's partly because there is deep
:14:34. > :14:35.economic inequality in Tunisia... I've been to Tunisia and the town
:14:36. > :14:45.of Sidi Bouzid, I've talked to young people and they
:14:46. > :14:50.say there's no chance of a job. The Tunisian elite does
:14:51. > :14:52.not listen to us. And you're a member
:14:53. > :14:56.of the Tunisian elite. Tunisians said together
:14:57. > :14:57.in one voice, we want dignity, we want jobs
:14:58. > :15:00.and we want freedom. We have freedom in Tunisia, but we
:15:01. > :15:03.cannot get the dignity without jobs. I say we are not responsible because
:15:04. > :15:18.those people are training in Libya but where does
:15:19. > :15:28.their anger come from? for a chance to get a job
:15:29. > :15:33.and they are still waiting. We didn't do for them
:15:34. > :15:53.and we didn't realise their dream, Because first of all we have big
:15:54. > :16:01.problems economically in Tunisia. We have 54% of our economy coming
:16:02. > :16:04.from the former economy, Because there's no state in Libya,
:16:05. > :16:15.no institution in Libya, so goods, arms and everything can
:16:16. > :16:18.enter in Tunisia in the wrong way. Of course, when we don't have
:16:19. > :16:21.a big capacity financially, For this I said we need
:16:22. > :16:25.the support of the international community to help us to ensure
:16:26. > :16:27.security and for investment. With respect,
:16:28. > :16:29.you do have support from the IMF, support on security issues
:16:30. > :16:36.from the Europeans. Not so much.
:16:37. > :16:37.Not concrete actions. Not so much.
:16:38. > :16:39.Really? Because we are not responsible
:16:40. > :16:42.for what has happened in Libya. But some people would say all of
:16:43. > :16:45.your answers avoid one key issue. I mean,
:16:46. > :16:48.you are from an elite family, You have to accept that there is
:16:49. > :16:58.endemic corruption in your country. The economic elite is accused
:16:59. > :17:01.by the World Bank amongst others "The regulatory system that allowed
:17:02. > :17:07.Ben Ali's corruption "It perpetuates the
:17:08. > :17:20.social exclusion, "it generates deep
:17:21. > :17:22.social injustice". Why is that World Bank report
:17:23. > :17:27.being written in 2014? Because we are still
:17:28. > :17:29.in a transition period. We got our democratic transition,
:17:30. > :17:31.but now we don't have We are now waiting to do some
:17:32. > :17:35.reforms, to invest more, So, even the corruption I think
:17:36. > :17:38.if we succeed on this, With respect, it is as bad today
:17:39. > :17:57.as it was under Ben Ali. transparency International actually
:17:58. > :18:00.has Tunisia dropping down the index of countries that are
:18:01. > :18:02.perceived to be corrupt. Because, as I said,
:18:03. > :18:11.we are in a transitional period. And now we are building
:18:12. > :18:13.together all the institutions. When we have freedom,
:18:14. > :18:16.we will have better governance, better transparency
:18:17. > :18:20.and freedom in the media. but we cannot find a solution now
:18:21. > :18:32.for all our past problems. Because these young people in
:18:33. > :18:36.the rural areas, the country areas, the poorest of the poor,
:18:37. > :18:42.they are still very angry. they are angry because
:18:43. > :18:50.they don't have jobs. They are angry about both things,
:18:51. > :18:52.surely. They are pretty angry
:18:53. > :18:54.when they see the elite doing so well in Tunis and their
:18:55. > :19:05.own villages are stuck in poverty. Even for our government, our state,
:19:06. > :19:09.now the government focused all of its efforts to the security
:19:10. > :19:18.problems. We don't invest more in those areas
:19:19. > :19:21.and really it's a big problem. For this we say that we need to get
:19:22. > :19:24.an economic dialogue together, To have a social climate in Tunisia
:19:25. > :19:35.and an investment climate. Talking of the investment climate,
:19:36. > :19:46.how damaging were the attacks How damaging have they been
:19:47. > :19:50.on Tunisia's ability to attract Now we are suffering,
:19:51. > :20:19.some areas are suffering. Not tourism, hotels also,
:20:20. > :20:22.but even all other areas, But what we can say to all people, I
:20:23. > :20:32.mean, terrorism is everywhere. We are doing our best
:20:33. > :20:54.to find a solution. Let me ask you
:20:55. > :20:56.about Tunisia's role in the region. You were the birthplace of
:20:57. > :20:59.the uprisings in a sense, in 2011. Do you believe that this recognition
:21:00. > :21:02.with the Nobel Peace Prize carries with it some sort of
:21:03. > :21:12.message for neighbouring states Do you think things can be
:21:13. > :21:16.learnt from your civil society I don't know, I can't say it
:21:17. > :21:28.will give lessons to others. But it will be a good experience
:21:29. > :21:31.and we can learn from these experiences, because we succeeded
:21:32. > :21:36.because we listened to each other. One lesson involves
:21:37. > :21:38.gender politics as well. Here you sit with me,
:21:39. > :21:41.the head of Tunisia's business I have heard that you were even
:21:42. > :21:53.asked if he would like to be Twice.
:21:54. > :21:56.Twice? What did you say when they asked
:21:57. > :21:57.you? Once when we were in dialogue,
:21:58. > :22:00.because there was confusion and we didn't find a solution
:22:01. > :22:03.and we didn't find a candidate. So most of them asked me to be
:22:04. > :22:12.Prime Minister. The second when we elected
:22:13. > :22:17.our president. He called me and said he was elected
:22:18. > :22:20.by 1 million Tunisian women. So I suggest that you be
:22:21. > :22:34.the Prime Minister. You could speak for all Tunisian
:22:35. > :22:36.women. And it would have been a heck
:22:37. > :22:39.of an opportunity. First, I said to him that I cannot
:22:40. > :22:45.be the boss because I have to choose ministers
:22:46. > :22:47.between four parties. Second, I have the covenants
:22:48. > :23:00.of my colleagues. So, to be in this organisation,
:23:01. > :23:03.to defy the interest of the companies and the private sector and
:23:04. > :23:06.I think it's too early for me To put it bluntly,
:23:07. > :23:12.do you think Tunisia, maybe this is a question for the
:23:13. > :23:15.wider Arab world as well, do you think your country is ready
:23:16. > :23:18.to be led by a woman? And to be really accepting of gender
:23:19. > :23:29.equality at all levels? We have all the rights
:23:30. > :23:35.and all the duties. In Tunisia we had the first
:23:36. > :23:47.doctor in the Arab world I mean, so, the first president of
:23:48. > :23:52.the confederation. So, we are already the first
:23:53. > :23:54.ones to accept. But I am delighted to say that you
:23:55. > :24:03.will also have to accept Congratulations one more time,
:24:04. > :24:07.Ouided Bouchamaoui, and thank you