:00:00. > :00:29.Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk on the road from Columbia.
:00:30. > :00:34.A country that has lived through 50 years of war and is desperately
:00:35. > :00:44.looking for a path to a lasting peace. The struggle for Columbia's
:00:45. > :00:49.future will be not settled in Bogota, but the rural areas, the
:00:50. > :00:54.stronghold of the Farc. The president believes that the Farc has
:00:55. > :01:10.been tamed. Many Colombians wonder, what if he is wrong. From the
:01:11. > :01:17.Caribbean coast to the Amazon basin by way of the Andes Mountains. Much
:01:18. > :01:22.of Columbia is hard to reach by road. But five decades of Rhyl a war
:01:23. > :01:30.have spread suffering right across this land. -- guerrila. At the
:01:31. > :01:34.height of their powers, the Farc have been making the roads a
:01:35. > :01:40.nightmare. Hostagetaking, road blocks, they were grim facts of
:01:41. > :01:44.life. But in recent years, the Farc have been pushed back into the
:01:45. > :02:02.jungle. On this road, today, these are the only road blocks, run by the
:02:03. > :02:12.Colombian army. This is a village of peasant farmers, if four Hour Drive
:02:13. > :02:23.from the capital. -- hour drive. Spirits are high. There is hope that
:02:24. > :02:24.they will not have to live with the fear, suspicion and violence
:02:25. > :02:33.experienced by previous generations. Don is the patriarch of
:02:34. > :03:01.this family. What do you feel about the peace
:03:02. > :03:03.deal between the government and the Farc? Do you think it is a good
:03:04. > :03:40.thing? Or does it make you nervous? Our presidents prompted a visit from
:03:41. > :03:44.soldiers based nearby. These days, the Farc threat is much reduced, but
:03:45. > :03:54.they still have uneasiness around strangers. The most ardent believer
:03:55. > :04:05.in Columbia's peace process is the president. Last September, he flew
:04:06. > :04:14.to Havana. Under the gaze of Raul Castro, he should be hand of the
:04:15. > :04:18.leader of the Farc. -- shook the hand. It was an extraordinary
:04:19. > :04:26.reaching out to a group who have waged war on the state for 50 years.
:04:27. > :04:38.Columbia's armed Revolutionary front was formed in the mid- 60s. --
:04:39. > :04:45.revolutionary. It was a bid to remove the elite and the almost
:04:46. > :04:53.feudal distribution of land and 12. -- wealth. The struggle became a
:04:54. > :05:03.dirty war that has claimed more than 200,000 lives. The government used
:05:04. > :05:09.death squads and disappearances. Be used drug-trafficking to find 20,000
:05:10. > :05:14.fighters. -- They. Now, their numbers have been reduced to just
:05:15. > :05:24.6000, pushed back, and it into the jungle. -- deep into the jungle. But
:05:25. > :05:51.their leader, Timoshenko, is defined. -- defiant.
:05:52. > :06:03.The Western Hemisphere's last war is simmering, no longer boiling. Last
:06:04. > :06:09.summer, the Farc declared a ceasefire, not their first, but
:06:10. > :06:18.their most credible so far. The Colombian military has not yet
:06:19. > :06:21.followed suit. The Farc ceasefire is holding, but it is fragile. The last
:06:22. > :06:28.firefight that these guys had with them was just one month ago. So, if
:06:29. > :06:41.the president does declare a formal ceasefire, he knows he is taking an
:06:42. > :06:47.enormous stand. Columbia has a population of 46 million. It has a
:06:48. > :06:57.growing economy, and fast untapped potential. -- vast. But 50 years of
:06:58. > :07:01.war have cast a dark shadow. In the centre of Bogota, there are
:07:02. > :07:06.reminders of people lost in atrocities. The government
:07:07. > :07:13.classifies 7 million people as victims of conflict. I spoke to one
:07:14. > :07:23.former captive held in the jungle for years. The only feeling that I
:07:24. > :07:30.feel is that I lost exceeded of my life. -- six years. It is a very
:07:31. > :07:37.difficult situation, right? Where their times where you were in Jane?
:07:38. > :07:48.Get the. -- were there. For one month. -- in chains. We tried to
:07:49. > :07:53.escape. Then they chained you. Yeah, it was a terrible experience because
:07:54. > :07:57.we felt like animals. Did you, at any point in your captivity, think
:07:58. > :08:07.he yourself, I will not get out of this, I will not get out of here. --
:08:08. > :08:12.think to yourself. Many times. I tried to be strong, but it isn't
:08:13. > :08:19.easy. The country is at a series moment. They are in a negotiation
:08:20. > :08:28.with the movement, the Farc, who held it for six years. -- serious.
:08:29. > :08:34.-- you. What they think about the government doing a deal with the
:08:35. > :08:41.people who held you and tell six years of your life? -- took. -- What
:08:42. > :09:43.do you think. When it comes to the peace process,
:09:44. > :09:49.Colombians sort of want to have their cake and eat it too. Newspaper
:09:50. > :09:53.opinion polls show that the clear majority of Colombians support the
:09:54. > :10:00.peace talks. But at the same time, most Colombians say they do not want
:10:01. > :10:10.to see Farc allowed into politics, especially not former military man
:10:11. > :10:29.moving into a house next door. SPEAKING SPANISH.
:10:30. > :10:37.The government already has a rehabilitation and reintegration
:10:38. > :10:43.programme for former Farc guerillas. Thousands of fighters who
:10:44. > :10:49.have deserted or announced their religions after capture go through a
:10:50. > :10:59.six year-long programme of counselling, the education, and
:11:00. > :11:06.training. -- reeducation. Reintegration remains a sensitive
:11:07. > :11:54.subject. Queue former guerillas agreed to talk to me. -- two.
:11:55. > :12:01.Do you believe that the leadership is serious about putting down its
:12:02. > :12:56.weapons? SPANISH MUSIC. In the capital, many
:12:57. > :13:03.still see the Farc as an enemy to be destroyed, not reintegrated. I was
:13:04. > :13:11.invited to meet the man credited by many Colombians with healing the
:13:12. > :13:16.Farc a series of blows. -- dealing. The former president. He has become
:13:17. > :13:31.the most savage critic of his excess and would-be peacemaker, one -- Juan
:13:32. > :13:39.Manuel Santos. He does not listen. It is important what you say to me.
:13:40. > :13:52.No, no, I understood. I understood. I don't...
:13:53. > :13:57.I don't understand. This is an important interview with the BBC,
:13:58. > :14:02.where we want you to tell the world what you think about these peace
:14:03. > :14:07.negotiations with the Farc. This is a platform for you to talk to the
:14:08. > :14:08.world, not just President Santos. The relationship between the former
:14:09. > :14:22.and current President is toxic. When I told Mr Ouribe I was also
:14:23. > :14:26.seeing President Santos, he walked out of the interview, saying we
:14:27. > :14:38.should speak to one of his party colleagues instead. What we feel is
:14:39. > :14:41.that giving impunity to terror, giving political presentation to
:14:42. > :14:43.terrorism, is giving political presentation to
:14:44. > :14:48.terrorism, is not a good example for the future of Columbia. Do you
:14:49. > :14:51.really believe that President Santos, former Defence Minister, a
:14:52. > :14:56.former leader of the military operations against the Farc, is
:14:57. > :15:01.cosying up to terrorism? He is because you cannot say that people
:15:02. > :15:08.who kidnapped 7000 people in Colombia, people who took our towns
:15:09. > :15:16.and blew them up with bombs, who put illegal blocks on the roads and
:15:17. > :15:21.kidnapped people, that they can just take off the bloodstained clothes
:15:22. > :15:23.and get into office. But you know the transitional justice
:15:24. > :15:29.arrangements that appear to be agreed with the Farc involve trials,
:15:30. > :15:33.they involve those who confess to crimes being allowed to have
:15:34. > :15:38.alternatives to prison, maybe five years of house arrest or restricted
:15:39. > :15:41.movement, and those who do not confess or tell the full truth will
:15:42. > :15:44.go to prison, and those who are convicted against crimes -- of
:15:45. > :15:50.crimes against humanity... That is impunity. You cannot say for Farc it
:15:51. > :15:54.is the big deal to confess crimes. Everyone knew they did it. And then
:15:55. > :16:01.to go free... That is not a good example for the future of Columbia.
:16:02. > :16:04.What about all those young people who are in drug trafficking and
:16:05. > :16:10.gangs? They will think that you can go into this crime business and in
:16:11. > :16:17.the engine can negotiate with the state and have any about anything
:16:18. > :16:22.you did. -- and then you can. Along the has been through a 50 year. More
:16:23. > :16:29.than 200,000 people have died. You say that you want permanent war. I
:16:30. > :16:34.don't want permanent war. I want law. It is about coherence. It is
:16:35. > :16:38.about the future of Columbia. We're not saying that we want war
:16:39. > :16:42.forever. We just want to let them know that this is not an extortion.
:16:43. > :16:47.But the bottom line is you are very worried that you are losing this
:16:48. > :16:51.argument. 70% or more of the Colombian public support the
:16:52. > :16:56.negotiation and Santos's strategy. But 80% of people do not want Farc
:16:57. > :17:07.to have political representation and 80% want them to go to jail. : 's
:17:08. > :17:13.president is under enormous pressure but he seems at ease with himself.
:17:14. > :17:19.-- the country's president. He believes he can change the course of
:17:20. > :17:25.his country's history. It is much easier to make war. Much easier to
:17:26. > :17:30.lead in times of war. To make peace, you have to have a different
:17:31. > :17:33.type of leadership. You have to be able to convince people to change
:17:34. > :17:42.their minds and their attitudes and ways of approaching the enemy, and
:17:43. > :17:47.that is much more difficult. Tell me about that historic handshake with
:17:48. > :17:55.the leader of the Farc, Tymoshenko, in Havana in September. It is a
:17:56. > :18:00.matter of timing. I thought it would be the correct time to start meeting
:18:01. > :18:08.face-to-face with the commander of the Farc, to start to try to push
:18:09. > :18:23.negotiations at a higher level, which we are doing, and that it was
:18:24. > :18:28.the correct moment to meet with him. Of course, he has been my enemy for
:18:29. > :18:31.all my life and I have been his enemy for his life full of most
:18:32. > :18:34.Colombians believe he has the blood of hundreds of thousands of
:18:35. > :18:39.civilians on his hands. And you'd -- you shook his hand. Yes. You don't
:18:40. > :18:45.make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies. He is
:18:46. > :18:49.the enemy but if we want to end this war, we have to sit down with the
:18:50. > :18:54.enemy, make an agreement and shake hands to seal that agreement. Your
:18:55. > :18:59.former political boss, in some ways your mentor, he says, and I'm using
:19:00. > :19:06.your words, that you have cosied up to terrorism. He says it is not
:19:07. > :19:12.peace that is near but the render to the Farc. -- surrender. Who is
:19:13. > :19:19.giving up their arms and who is keeping the arm is? -- arms? If you
:19:20. > :19:28.read what is being negotiated, what we're simply accepting is they can
:19:29. > :19:33.leave their weapons, disarm, and continue their political struggle
:19:34. > :19:39.through legal means. That is what the peace process is all about. They
:19:40. > :19:45.are being subjected to transitional justice. The most responsible will
:19:46. > :19:52.go through transitional justice in order to respect the rights of the
:19:53. > :20:00.victims, which is the centre of the solution of this conflict. But in
:20:01. > :20:06.the former president's words, they are getting away with murder. If you
:20:07. > :20:10.listen to what he is saying, you will come to the conclusion that he
:20:11. > :20:18.is being a bit emotional. 220,000 people died in this war. It lasted
:20:19. > :20:23.50 years. People are emotional. That is exactly why we are trying to
:20:24. > :20:29.reach a peace agreement. So we don't have to have 220,000 more victims.
:20:30. > :20:35.War is a factory of victims and I want to stop that factory. I wonder
:20:36. > :20:42.on a personal level how you feel about the victims, those whose
:20:43. > :20:49.parents were perhaps murdered, those who saw their on children waved out
:20:50. > :20:52.of massacres in villages. -- wiped out. How do you explain to them that
:20:53. > :20:58.you feel it is important to give the Farc dignity? The victims are my
:20:59. > :21:05.strongest allies. The principal source of support I have has been
:21:06. > :21:12.the victims. I talk to them every day. And talking to them is what
:21:13. > :21:17.gives me more energy to continue, to persevere, with the peace process.
:21:18. > :21:21.The big question for Colombians is how this plays out early next year.
:21:22. > :21:26.You have said that you want a deal by the end of March 2016. We have
:21:27. > :21:33.agreed with the Farc that by the 23rd of March we should sign a final
:21:34. > :21:39.agreement. You have committed to what they call or referendum where
:21:40. > :21:42.the final decision will be with the people of this nation. When will
:21:43. > :21:47.that happen? That will happen after we signed the final agreement. If we
:21:48. > :21:51.sign the final agreement around March, let us say, the plebiscite
:21:52. > :21:56.will be done a couple of months afterwards. We need to have time to
:21:57. > :22:00.explain to the people what the agreement is all about and the
:22:01. > :22:07.people can say that they don't like it and then there will be no deal.
:22:08. > :22:13.What? After all of this? Yes. The years and negotiations? Yes. You say
:22:14. > :22:16.this is vital for the future of your nation and you tell me that if the
:22:17. > :22:20.public vote against it you will walk away? Yes, because that was the
:22:21. > :22:25.commitment I made since the very beginning. With respect, you would
:22:26. > :22:29.have to resign at that point. I would be in serious difficulty but
:22:30. > :22:31.I'm absolutely, instead that the overwhelming majority of Colombians
:22:32. > :22:46.will support me and this peace process. You can funicular railway
:22:47. > :22:52.up the mountainside on the east of Bogota to the century of
:22:53. > :22:59.Montserrat. For Colombians, it is a place of pilgrimage. People here
:23:00. > :23:03.have lived with conflict all of their lives. Now, they must decide
:23:04. > :23:10.whether they can trust the Farc to be partners, not enemies. I have two
:23:11. > :23:16.positions. On, I feel that no, I need to give the opportunity to them
:23:17. > :23:23.because they are humans, they made mistakes in the past and they have
:23:24. > :23:27.their reasons to commit their crimes and things. On the one level you are
:23:28. > :23:31.prepared to forgive him. But what is the second feeling? Many people
:23:32. > :23:38.suffered terrorist attacks, terrible things from these people, so they're
:23:39. > :23:43.not prepared to... They're not prepared to forgive? No, they're
:23:44. > :23:51.not. Do you think Columbia will remain very divided? Yes. For
:23:52. > :23:52.example, my parents might think that they deserve another opportunity but
:23:53. > :24:00.my grandmother and my teacher they deserve another opportunity but
:24:01. > :24:06.my grandmother and my say no. : the may be emerging from decades of
:24:07. > :24:15.darkness. -- Columbia may be emerging. But 50 years of war have
:24:16. > :24:19.left a legacy of pain and hate. The wounds here that will take, many
:24:20. > :24:25.years to heal.