:00:00. > :00:00.Some fans, who'd camped for days to see the stars, were disappointed
:00:00. > :00:00.as huge tents and seating blocked the view of those without tickets.
:00:00. > :00:22.Welcome to HARDtalk two with the Napa Valley. -- HARDtalk. Our guest
:00:23. > :00:31.is Tokyo Sexwale. He said 13 years in jail with Nelson Mandela in
:00:32. > :00:35.Robben Island. Through interest in mining, business, he became one of
:00:36. > :00:42.the richest black South Africans. He is among five candidates vying to
:00:43. > :00:48.succeed Sepp Blatter, Fifa president. Can he reinvent himself
:00:49. > :00:53.and win this top football post, or could pass controversies damage his
:00:54. > :01:23.chances? -- past. Tokyo Sexwale, in Johannesburg,
:01:24. > :01:26.welcome to HARDtalk. How can you hope to become Fifa president in
:01:27. > :01:33.February when you don't even have the backing of the South African
:01:34. > :01:40.football Players' Union? -- Football. Thank you for letting me
:01:41. > :01:50.on your show. I have the backing of the association which is the main
:01:51. > :01:54.one in South Africa. What you are referring to was corrected in a
:01:55. > :02:01.statement they made in South Africa. It is unfortunate. Things have
:02:02. > :02:10.turned around. I half the total backing of the South Africans will
:02:11. > :02:15.all association. -- Football Association. -- I have the. That is
:02:16. > :02:18.the point. They say that the problem is you have the backing of the
:02:19. > :02:23.association. They don't like that. They say it is about footballers,
:02:24. > :02:30.before the associations and the suits who run them for their
:02:31. > :02:36.personal gain. Tokyo Sexwale, he is no different from those that support
:02:37. > :02:45.him. They said that in November. Well... Let's put the whole question
:02:46. > :02:47.in context. I am not a local candidate for the South African
:02:48. > :02:54.Football Association. What you are referring to a local football
:02:55. > :03:00.politics, petty politics. This is about a much more serious question
:03:01. > :03:05.of where I play my role. For the last nine years I have been one of
:03:06. > :03:12.the leaders of football in Fifa. That is where it is. The union here
:03:13. > :03:16.are those individuals, those you are referring to... They are the
:03:17. > :03:23.players. It was a statement issued... I understand... By the
:03:24. > :03:27.union. It isn't just a local issue. The point they are making is that
:03:28. > :03:33.football should not be for the managers, the players. My point is
:03:34. > :03:36.the following, the union... That statement was issued by a few
:03:37. > :03:46.disgruntled members who have since put in line... Been put on line by
:03:47. > :03:51.senior members in South Africa. -- in. I am not a local candidate. I
:03:52. > :04:00.have been a member of the far for nine years. That is where the
:04:01. > :04:03.election is taking place. -- Fifa. We know all the controversies, the
:04:04. > :04:09.investigations, allegations, about current and former Fifa executives
:04:10. > :04:16.and their associates. People want to see somebody come in with a large
:04:17. > :04:21.broom to sweep all this stuff behind Fifa. Argued the man to do that
:04:22. > :04:26.when, arguably, you are very close to Sepp Blatter, the outgoing
:04:27. > :04:30.president, for example, when it started, you said it was a shock.
:04:31. > :04:39.These are friends, colleagues, people we have enjoyed World Cup
:04:40. > :04:45.games with, and then as. -- dinners. Zeinab Badawi, you are less than
:04:46. > :04:49.candid with the truth. These are friends, colleagues, I repeat, we
:04:50. > :04:55.have been with them in World Cups and all sorts of places, but, if any
:04:56. > :05:00.of them were doing nefarious things, then the law must take its own
:05:01. > :05:06.costs. Check your records again. I will not run away from you, Zeinab
:05:07. > :05:09.Badawi. I know you. If something has gone wrong and you are playing games
:05:10. > :05:16.with us, the law will take its own course. That is what I am saying. We
:05:17. > :05:22.are prepared to be that room. We are prepared, if I am the leader, to
:05:23. > :05:26.make sure there is transparency and democracy. -- broom. Financial
:05:27. > :05:32.accountability. Those are the things that have caused the problem... The
:05:33. > :05:38.lack of them. I will not run away from people I know. Yes, I was close
:05:39. > :05:44.to Sepp Blatter and all those... They are friends. I repeat again,
:05:45. > :05:49.they are friends. However, if any of them has in less than candid with
:05:50. > :05:55.the truth, the law will and must take its own course. -- Arseny
:05:56. > :05:59.Yatsenyuk I did say... I will add that you have said these
:06:00. > :06:05.investigations are good for the game. It is a legitimate question to
:06:06. > :06:09.put to you, however, that, arguably, some see you as too close to the
:06:10. > :06:14.former regime. Let me ask you this, Tokyo Sexwale is at the you said, if
:06:15. > :06:28.I run Fifa I will roll up a sleeves. -- Sexwale. Will you get in
:06:29. > :06:34.every now and again or moved his -- move to Zurich. You don't have to be
:06:35. > :06:40.there all the time. Look at the reform. The president of Fifa must
:06:41. > :06:45.have a very strong administration. From time to time you have to be
:06:46. > :06:51.there at the headquarters to make sure things happen, however, if it
:06:52. > :06:54.means I should move, I will. I have always stayed away from South
:06:55. > :07:00.Africa, I was in jail for 15 years, I lived there, it isn't rocket
:07:01. > :07:08.science for me. But I will spend quality time in Zurich and spent
:07:09. > :07:15.time at home full-time -- from time to time. How transparent would you
:07:16. > :07:23.be? Would you disclose your salary, for example, at Fifa? Not just
:07:24. > :07:35.that. Also a wreath in Fifa must be disclosed. -- all salaries. We need
:07:36. > :07:41.to do so. These things... It is a matter of international best
:07:42. > :07:48.practice, not just my salary, everyone's. If we raise funds from
:07:49. > :07:53.sponsors we need to tell them how we use them. It is important for
:07:54. > :07:59.everybody. Speaking of sponsors, Tokyo Sexwale, you were critical of
:08:00. > :08:03.the sponsors when they were pushing for the resignation of Sepp Blatter
:08:04. > :08:09.and so on. You said this was not acceptable. Yet on the other hand,
:08:10. > :08:13.you say that one of your policies you would bring in if you were Fifa
:08:14. > :08:19.president is to allow corporate sponsorship on national teams
:08:20. > :08:24.because shirts. At the moment, it is only a loud at club level. Isn't
:08:25. > :08:28.that corporate sponsorship? -- allowed. Won't that be a more
:08:29. > :08:32.prominent role? You are making me unhappy you are not quoting me
:08:33. > :08:41.fully. (LAUGHING). I said, the sponsors are
:08:42. > :08:45.wrong in calling for the resignation of a person because that gives them
:08:46. > :08:52.unattended power of saying who the next president should be. Not just
:08:53. > :08:57.what you said. -- unintended. They must sponsor activism and called for
:08:58. > :09:01.the end of corruption and all these things. I am sure I am the only
:09:02. > :09:09.candidate who calls for sponsor activism. What I am cautioning, is
:09:10. > :09:16.that in calling for these things, the sponsors must not go as far as
:09:17. > :09:22.saying so-and-so must go. That is too much power. I did not
:09:23. > :09:29.misrepresent... I did not ... I simply... The sponsors have the
:09:30. > :09:32.right to speak for the money. I am a businessman. When I sponsor I call
:09:33. > :09:38.for records. But they should not go as far as saying so-and-so must go.
:09:39. > :09:49.By the key points... Invariably it leads to unattended consequences. --
:09:50. > :09:55.But the key point. -- unintended. But the annoyance is with
:09:56. > :10:02.advertisements on national teams because shirts. Briefly, why do you
:10:03. > :10:07.think that would be a good idea? -- teams'. That is a wonderful
:10:08. > :10:16.question. Look at the national team. The Fifa policy of the clean T-shirt
:10:17. > :10:24.does not exist. Teams are having logos of adidas... They are the...
:10:25. > :10:28.All I am saying is that the time has come to discuss the possibility of
:10:29. > :10:36.having other sponsors. Poor countries, they are excited to do
:10:37. > :10:42.this, they will... Rich nations have their own problems. I said, look,
:10:43. > :10:50.this is right. It is going to bring funds and more money into the less
:10:51. > :10:56.than rich countries. Each should not be legislated. They are very
:10:57. > :11:02.excited. You have served on the South Africa World Cup organising
:11:03. > :11:06.committee. They hosted the World Cup in 2010, of course. There are still
:11:07. > :11:12.unanswered questions about the million-dollar payment made to Fifa
:11:13. > :11:17.at the time. Given those unanswered questions, and that you are part of
:11:18. > :11:22.the committee, is it right that you put yourself forward as a candidate
:11:23. > :11:25.to succeed Sepp Blatter? Well, there is nothing wrong with what happened
:11:26. > :11:32.here in Africa. Here is the position. Let me clarify. Whose
:11:33. > :11:40.money was it? It was donated by the government. Where did it go? It was
:11:41. > :11:46.sent to the CONCACAF business. It was supposed to be for development.
:11:47. > :11:51.The investigation must continue into whether it happened. Let's sort this
:11:52. > :11:55.thing out. Where did the money go? It is not my money, it was money
:11:56. > :12:01.coming from the government. It was given to people. But it went for
:12:02. > :12:08.intended purpose is. That is why I back the investigation. -- purposes.
:12:09. > :12:13.The FBI, whoever... I will go there next week to make sure that we have
:12:14. > :12:17.answers to these things. The allegation that it was a bribe...
:12:18. > :12:22.The allegation it was a bribe that the president at the time said was
:12:23. > :12:26.absolutely not the case, that it was given to develop will bowl in the
:12:27. > :12:33.Caribbean nations, part of the African diaster. -- football. That
:12:34. > :12:39.is part of the investigation. -- diaspora. You categorically say this
:12:40. > :12:44.was not part of a bribe from South Africa. I cannot say that. We did
:12:45. > :12:50.not bribe anybody. We had Nelson Mandela... These are icons, Noble
:12:51. > :12:53.laureates. Whoever gave this money... The question is, did it go
:12:54. > :12:58.to where the projects were supposed to be? That is what the
:12:59. > :13:03.investigation is supposed to be. We call on everybody to collaborate and
:13:04. > :13:10.work with the FBI and everybody so we can know exactly what happened.
:13:11. > :13:18.Bart, the law must take its own course. -- But. You say you are part
:13:19. > :13:21.of these investigations. I want to go to your business career. There
:13:22. > :13:27.are also ongoing investigations by the US and Swiss authorities... The
:13:28. > :13:32.US authorities, sorry, in this regard, with a man not companies,
:13:33. > :13:38.but, some people, some organisations you have had associations with. Can
:13:39. > :13:45.you categorically say that you honestly feel that any of your
:13:46. > :13:48.business interests, all your business interests, are completely
:13:49. > :13:57.transparent. You have no case to answer. I will say, operating on the
:13:58. > :14:01.London Stock Exchange, I don't get involved in these things. My
:14:02. > :14:06.companies are categorically not involved in this. Person to me
:14:07. > :14:12.carefully. Is any other Alcacer the... -- listen. -- if any of our
:14:13. > :14:19.associates were found to conduct anything but seriously they must go
:14:20. > :14:25.down. I have been to prison, I know. People must be brought forward and
:14:26. > :14:31.that is it. My companies are clean. My companies are listed. They are
:14:32. > :14:36.Rindt Johannesburg. They operate like anywhere else. -- they are in.
:14:37. > :14:39.You accept that your businesses have attracted unfavourable press
:14:40. > :14:45.coverage, especially in South Africa, The Mail and The Guardian
:14:46. > :14:49.one of the few independent papers in South Africa, July 2014, they
:14:50. > :14:54.reported that a company founded by you in 2008 before you returned to
:14:55. > :15:00.government in 2009, might be drawn into investigation by US authorities
:15:01. > :15:03.into a US hedge fund that was involved with your company in a
:15:04. > :15:07.mining project in the Democratic Republic of Congo. You accept there
:15:08. > :15:11.has been unfavourable press coverage?
:15:12. > :15:22.It is not my press coverage. What I am saying, listen carefully, if any
:15:23. > :15:30.of the companies I am involved in, if anyone has conducted themselves
:15:31. > :15:36.in a variously, let them fall. -- nefariously. We have 10-15,000
:15:37. > :15:43.people in oil, all of these things. If there are problems, when it comes
:15:44. > :15:49.to attention, what do you do? I said to the executives, whatever you
:15:50. > :15:54.want. What ever has happened, if anybody is found to have done
:15:55. > :15:59.anything, they should go down. I am the first to say that. Unfavourable
:16:00. > :16:05.or favourable, that is it. What is important is to stand up and assist
:16:06. > :16:12.the process of investigation for things to be right. Let's talk about
:16:13. > :16:20.FIFA. We have talked a lot about FIFA. The legal aspect aside, you
:16:21. > :16:24.know there are many campaigning groups, Global Witness,
:16:25. > :16:28.international and national groups, who say that when you look at the
:16:29. > :16:33.natural resources in Africa, and you said obviously you are involved in
:16:34. > :16:39.oil, mining, you name it, in the DRC, in Guinea, for instance, you
:16:40. > :16:44.have known the President for a very long time, even before he became
:16:45. > :16:50.president, that there is a feeling, as an analyst has said in South
:16:51. > :16:54.Africa, that there is a kind of mercantile type of capitalism that
:16:55. > :17:00.has impoverished the continent. And it doesn't look good when you see
:17:01. > :17:04.deals being made, you know, mining deals and so on. People feel that
:17:05. > :17:08.state resources perhaps are not being used for the benefit of the
:17:09. > :17:14.population but to in rich couple of individuals. Are you concerned about
:17:15. > :17:24.being involved in these deals? No, that's not the issue. Africa is
:17:25. > :17:32.impoverished by the colonial world. We have been raped since 1881. It is
:17:33. > :17:36.recorded by an number of organisations you have referred to.
:17:37. > :17:45.The fact of the matter is, I am a business person, and I get involved
:17:46. > :17:50.in Britain, in my continent, Russia, Canada. If anything has been done
:17:51. > :17:55.that is wrong, let us investigate. If anything we are involved in
:17:56. > :18:03.making sure the community is assisted, we help people in Africa.
:18:04. > :18:08.We are transparent. That is why I am here. Tokyo Sexwale, I have moved on
:18:09. > :18:13.from transparency. You are the son of a hospital clerk. You have a
:18:14. > :18:15.modest background. You were a beneficiary of the economic
:18:16. > :18:22.empowerment kind of drive in South Africa. As you know that is seen as
:18:23. > :18:27.in reaching a couple of black South Africans. Some people have called it
:18:28. > :18:30.crony capitalism. There is a difference between elite South
:18:31. > :18:34.Africans as yourself and the masses who put them into power. You are an
:18:35. > :18:41.incredibly wealthy man. My point is, you don't feel afflicted by a
:18:42. > :18:46.guilty conscience in any way that you have amassed this wealth, when
:18:47. > :18:51.so many black South Africans languish low down when it comes to
:18:52. > :18:59.economic indicators? No, there is no guilt, because I am a leader, and I
:19:00. > :19:05.assist. I don't just accumulate money. The law of South Africa
:19:06. > :19:13.doesn't allow that. Let me give you an example, we did a deal that
:19:14. > :19:19.benefited, listen, 2.1 million people on my hands. There is no
:19:20. > :19:28.business you do by yourself. As a leader, you accumulate funds. Your
:19:29. > :19:34.stock on the stock exchange go up. It is not like I am stealing money.
:19:35. > :19:39.We have done very well. It is acceptable that you have accumulated
:19:40. > :19:43.this fund, given all sorts of headlines, one that you have bought
:19:44. > :19:50.a tropical island in the Indian Ocean for $70 million. Is it true?
:19:51. > :20:00.Yes, and I learnt is a piece of farm in the middle of the sea in
:20:01. > :20:04.Mozambique and it is $7 million -- Mozambique. I am a leader of
:20:05. > :20:09.business. In South Africa, you have got to resist. You cannot be a
:20:10. > :20:15.businessman without helping local people. I have thousands of people,
:20:16. > :20:25.like I said, 2.1 million beneficiaries in one transaction.
:20:26. > :20:30.Put on your politician had. You left as minister for Human Settlement in
:20:31. > :20:34.2013. What do you make of the merry-go-round of the Finance
:20:35. > :20:45.Minister? Will you through in your hat for that? We have seen Gordan,
:20:46. > :20:50.well, Nene was taken out, which caused issues that worried many
:20:51. > :21:00.people, and then he put in someone else hastily, he removed him and now
:21:01. > :21:04.Gordan is back. Is it a fiasco? Let me take off my political hat and
:21:05. > :21:10.talk to you. We are shellshocked that within four days we have three
:21:11. > :21:14.finance ministers. It is simply not on. I can see that the President has
:21:15. > :21:19.backtracked to correct himself. I was in the Cabinet in the past. The
:21:20. > :21:23.Finance Minister position is highly sensitive. I should know that,
:21:24. > :21:28.having operated in the markets. It is not good for our image. I hope
:21:29. > :21:34.this will all be behind us when the minister, in whom I have a lot of
:21:35. > :21:38.confidence, which I said, when he takes the reins. I can see that the
:21:39. > :21:41.currency of South Africa has rebounded, it is coming back,
:21:42. > :21:46.because it is trying to correct the mistake of last week, which was made
:21:47. > :21:51.in changing Finance Minister is so suddenly. What about the political
:21:52. > :22:00.fallout, it seems to indicate Jacob Zuma does not have a firm hand at
:22:01. > :22:04.the tiller? Well, I used to be in government, I was in politics, I am
:22:05. > :22:09.no longer. If I am to give my tuppence, it is important that
:22:10. > :22:12.politicians understand before they take decisions the consequences of
:22:13. > :22:19.those decisions. Especially in the market. Take a decision, you can
:22:20. > :22:25.fall off your stall, debt and inflation can rise. I would hope
:22:26. > :22:29.that this episode of the last four days becomes a lesson people should
:22:30. > :22:39.learn Cash stool. You don't tinker with the markets that easily. --
:22:40. > :22:45.stool. Given the storm has subsided, can Tokyo Sexwale, freedom fighter
:22:46. > :22:50.turned politician, turned businessman, you have even made TV
:22:51. > :23:01.appearances in South Africa, can you reinvent yourself and become Fifa
:23:02. > :23:12.President? Well, my sister, Zeinavb, I have been here for nine
:23:13. > :23:16.years -- Zeinab. I have been elected to head the Palestine Football
:23:17. > :23:20.Committee Fifa to bring peace and harmony into the organisation, to
:23:21. > :23:28.normalise football between the countries. So, when I get there, I
:23:29. > :23:34.will rely on, as president of Fifa to be, I rely on transparency. That
:23:35. > :23:38.is all that is missing from this brand that has been so badly
:23:39. > :23:45.damaged, in terms of democracy and openness. I will rely on the fact
:23:46. > :23:49.that those inside FIFA have to understand it is about players,
:23:50. > :23:52.officials and sponsors. Let's take advantage of it. This is the
:23:53. > :23:58.opportunity to rectify what has happened. The brand is damaged and
:23:59. > :24:00.needs repair. Tokyo Sexwale from Johannesburg, thank you very much
:24:01. > :24:06.for coming on HARDtalk.