:00:00. > :00:15.For years, the Anglican Communion has been preoccupied with issues
:00:16. > :00:18.of sexuality and the growing rift between the liberal and conservative
:00:19. > :00:25.But all the while the Anglican faithful, along with other
:00:26. > :00:27.Christians, have been living with persecution in countries as far
:00:28. > :00:37.Today my guest is the Secretary General of the
:00:38. > :00:41.Anglican Communion, archbishop Josiah Idowu-Fearon from Nigeria.
:00:42. > :01:16.Does the Anglican establishment have its priorities right?
:01:17. > :01:25.Archbishop Josiah Idowu-Fearon, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. If I
:01:26. > :01:31.may, I want to start with a rather extraordinary quote of yours. Quite
:01:32. > :01:34.recently you said, we Christians need a bit more persecution from
:01:35. > :01:40.outside and you went on to explain that, even the extremist threat that
:01:41. > :01:45.Christians face in countries such as your own, the church denominations
:01:46. > :01:51.then all pull together. Were you being serious when you set that?
:01:52. > :02:01.Yes, I was -- said. More persecution? Yes but let me
:02:02. > :02:10.explain. That statement was informed by my experience in Nigeria. Each
:02:11. > :02:19.time we had extremists burning churches, causing havoc in the name
:02:20. > :02:24.of religion, Christians came together. We prayed together. We
:02:25. > :02:34.have tried to find solutions together. But after that period,
:02:35. > :02:40.when we seemed to have some peace, when you hear Christians fighting
:02:41. > :02:44.one another, bothering themselves with things that are irrelevant,
:02:45. > :02:51.that have nothing to do with the Gospel. That is what has informed
:02:52. > :02:56.that statement. But the very notion that persecution can somehow be for
:02:57. > :02:59.the good is troubling, because obviously every time there is a
:03:00. > :03:05.round of persecution in a country like Nigeria, we're talking about
:03:06. > :03:11.many people, men, women and children being killed, churches being
:03:12. > :03:15.attacked, village is being destroyed and certainly is a churchman and a
:03:16. > :03:20.member of the hierarchy, you don't want to see that simply to have the
:03:21. > :03:25.church altogether. Stephen, persecution is not just that alone.
:03:26. > :03:34.There are other forms of persecution like being denied what your rights
:03:35. > :03:38.are, for example, rights to own property, rights to have airtime on
:03:39. > :03:47.television, for your voice to be heard on the radio. These are other
:03:48. > :03:50.forms of persecution which I, as the Nigerian, did go through. Thank God
:03:51. > :03:54.things are getting better. But wouldn't it be better for Nigeria if
:03:55. > :03:57.the citizens of your country no longer primarily thought of
:03:58. > :04:02.themselves as Christian Nigerians or Muslim Nigerians Webb that in fact
:04:03. > :04:05.religion became something very private and something that didn't
:04:06. > :04:15.have a bearing on the rest of their lives? Well, that's the ideal we are
:04:16. > :04:20.all praying and hoping to achieve. But you must understand that in
:04:21. > :04:32.Nigeria, and most of the African countries, tribalism and the
:04:33. > :04:38.struggle for control of resources often puts on the facade of
:04:39. > :04:44.religion. So which is it religion per se. However, because the African
:04:45. > :04:50.is very religious, he or she takes cover. So it is a cover up. Right
:04:51. > :04:55.and you are saying that really it is about power, land, very material
:04:56. > :05:01.struggles. Absolutely, that's what it is and you don't have that in
:05:02. > :05:04.this country. No but you see, there are many church people, and many
:05:05. > :05:09.Muslim scholars as well, who are talking these days about a
:05:10. > :05:14.fundamental struggle between Christianity and Islam. In many
:05:15. > :05:23.different parts of the world, including your own. I am sure you
:05:24. > :05:29.know the Archbishop of Kenya, he says that in Africa and the Middle
:05:30. > :05:34.East, Christian communities are being destroyed and intimidated by
:05:35. > :05:40.Islamic radicalism. Yes. It's the kind of language of a clash of
:05:41. > :05:44.religions, a clash of civilizations. Yes. That's a fact but I think it
:05:45. > :05:50.would be a sweeping statement to say, in Africa. It is not just in
:05:51. > :05:59.Africa. We see it now in the Middle East. But I still come to my point,
:06:00. > :06:05.what we need in Nigeria and other parts of Africa is for Africans to
:06:06. > :06:15.sit down and say, now, which comes first? MIA Nigerian before being a
:06:16. > :06:20.Christian or am I a Christian before being a Nigerian? There is a world
:06:21. > :06:24.of difference. If I see myself as the Nigerian, whether I am Christian
:06:25. > :06:34.or Muslim, that helps to bring about unity. But what religious leaders
:06:35. > :06:38.do, and politicians capitalise on, is to divide us along religious
:06:39. > :06:43.lines. It is very interesting you include religious leaders in not. I
:06:44. > :06:49.wonder how you feel, perhaps the most important religious leader of
:06:50. > :06:54.all, obviously not from the Anglican strand of Christianity, but Pope
:06:55. > :06:59.Francis said recently, he talked about a third world war being waged
:07:00. > :07:04.piecemeal, he said. We are now experiencing it, a form of genocide
:07:05. > :07:08.is taking place. And he basically said that it was Christians in many
:07:09. > :07:14.different parts of the world, vulnerable communities, who are
:07:15. > :07:19.facing this form of genocide. Was that language, in your view, helpful
:07:20. > :07:28.or was it a problem? In my situation in Nigeria, it is not helpful.
:07:29. > :07:34.Because the religious crisis, the Boko Haram crisis we are facing does
:07:35. > :07:41.not discriminate. They come under the guise of Islam but we all know,
:07:42. > :07:46.and they also know this, that this is not the Islam we are used to. For
:07:47. > :07:54.example, in that northeastern part of Nigeria, it is predominantly
:07:55. > :08:00.Muslim. Sunni Islam. Who are they trying to convert there? So it isn't
:08:01. > :08:04.religion per se. That is the point. So the Pope got it wrong, in a
:08:05. > :08:09.sense. If he was talking about communities such as your own in
:08:10. > :08:13.Nigeria, which of course includes Christians, Sunni Muslims and Shia
:08:14. > :08:16.Muslims as well, to characterize this as some form of genocidal
:08:17. > :08:24.action against Christians was just plain wrong? Well, probably the Pope
:08:25. > :08:30.was speaking from the information he had, but the information, what I
:08:31. > :08:37.live within my country, I wouldn't use the word religious genocide,
:08:38. > :08:43.because Boko Haram, more Muslims have been killed under it than
:08:44. > :08:52.Christians. It is an interesting point. Now you are known to some in
:08:53. > :08:55.Nigeria as Archbishop Dialogue. The Muslim Bishop, they call me.
:08:56. > :09:01.Actually some have even accused you of being a closet Muslim. Yes. I
:09:02. > :09:04.don't know how you feel about that. When some of the Christian
:09:05. > :09:08.communities in Nigeria say, he is so keen on reaching out and building
:09:09. > :09:12.bridges to Muslims in our country, that we actually think he is a
:09:13. > :09:18.Muslim, what do you do? Do you laugh or worry? It doesn't worry me. In
:09:19. > :09:22.fact, I laugh because I say, praise God for it, because that is my
:09:23. > :09:27.calling. Stephen, I did not choose this ministry, God chose me and I
:09:28. > :09:36.believe God has done that for a specific purpose. I come from the
:09:37. > :09:41.northern parts of Nigeria, where religion is being used, has been
:09:42. > :09:50.used to divide us. Along Christian-Muslim lines. In the
:09:51. > :09:53.Southwest, you have a significant, huge number of Muslims and
:09:54. > :10:00.Christians. They don't fight. Why are we fighting in the north weighs
:10:01. > :10:04.so I believe my calling is to help the Muslim to see me as a fellow
:10:05. > :10:10.Nigerian who comes from the northern part of the country. I understand
:10:11. > :10:15.the calling and your commitment to this bridge building, and you have
:10:16. > :10:19.established study groups and EU yourself have spent a lot of time
:10:20. > :10:21.studying Islam as well as Christianity, I know that. But you
:10:22. > :10:26.have to accept that your bridge building efforts have failed, have
:10:27. > :10:31.they not? Sectarian conflict and communal tension today in Nigeria is
:10:32. > :10:36.probably higher than it has ever been before, partly because of Boko
:10:37. > :10:41.Haram. Stephen, when you say it is because the Muslims want to convert
:10:42. > :10:49.Christians, no, that is the point. Boko Haram is not, primarily because
:10:50. > :10:54.Muslims in Nigeria want all Christians to become Muslims, it is
:10:55. > :10:58.not true. That may not be true, but Christians see the girls from Chibok
:10:59. > :11:02.being kidnapped... They are not all Christians. There from a mostly
:11:03. > :11:05.Christian area and they're mostly Christian girls and is the video
:11:06. > :11:08.evidence suggested, they were forcibly converted to Islam.
:11:09. > :11:11.Christian Nigerians see that and whether or not they know that their
:11:12. > :11:15.friends and neighbours happened to be Muslim and that most Muslims are
:11:16. > :11:20.not of that militant persuasion, do not believe in the caliphate or
:11:21. > :11:23.anything else, they also naturally feel frightened, they feel tense and
:11:24. > :11:28.they braved is being established in Nigerian society which all of your
:11:29. > :11:37.bridge building efforts are not overcoming. It is. We are making
:11:38. > :11:42.efforts. Naughton the truth is as long as Islam and Christianity,
:11:43. > :11:45.which are both mythological and have this aspect of wanting people to
:11:46. > :11:50.live their own way, as long as we have both together, there will
:11:51. > :11:58.always be room for conflict and our job, my job, is to help the Muslim
:11:59. > :12:03.and Christian to understand each other. Let me ask you this. You
:12:04. > :12:06.believe in bridge building, in dialogue and reaching out. Are you
:12:07. > :12:13.interested in establishing a dialogue with the leadership of Boko
:12:14. > :12:18.Haram? If we can actually identify who the true leadership... I mean
:12:19. > :12:25.what the true leadership is composed of. Why not? Because one, a good
:12:26. > :12:29.number of them are Nigerians, whether we like it or not. I do not
:12:30. > :12:36.discount it as a fact that some of them are probably from Niger or the
:12:37. > :12:41.Cameroon area or Chad. If we can identify them, dialogue is the
:12:42. > :12:46.beginning of the solution. So you would talk to convicted killers, two
:12:47. > :12:55.men who have blood on their hands? Is they are willing. -- if.
:12:56. > :12:59.Stephen, we must all understand one thing. These are all God 's
:13:00. > :13:05.children. Whether they are criminals or not, they are all and God, from
:13:06. > :13:10.my religion, issues that that God loves us equally. They have chosen
:13:11. > :13:14.to behave the way they are behaving and the responsibility is on those
:13:15. > :13:21.of us who believe there is a better way to find... To help them to find
:13:22. > :13:24.a better way. That is why I am a Christian, that is why I am involved
:13:25. > :13:30.in bridge building. Let's change our focus a little bit. You have talked
:13:31. > :13:34.about your commitment to bridge building inside Nigeria but you need
:13:35. > :13:37.to build bridges within the Anglican community because it is in the
:13:38. > :13:41.process of falling apart. You have taken the job of Secretary General,
:13:42. > :13:44.one of the most senior officials behind the authority of The
:13:45. > :13:50.Archbishop of Canterbury himself. How are you going to build bridges
:13:51. > :13:51.within the different wings of the communion which, frankly, is in the
:13:52. > :14:01.process of collapse? I think it would be an overstatement
:14:02. > :14:08.to say that the Anglican Communion is on the verge of collapse. My
:14:09. > :14:13.reason is this. There is not a single church on the face of this
:14:14. > :14:17.earth today that is not wrestling with this question of human
:14:18. > :14:27.sexuality. And I'm saying this from evidence. Last month, we had this
:14:28. > :14:30.committee of secretaries general of the various major denominations from
:14:31. > :14:34.Roman Catholic, Presbyterians, Baptists, name it. Ovation army,
:14:35. > :14:40.seventh-day Adventists. They meet once a year. And as the new
:14:41. > :14:45.Secretary General of the Anglican Communion I was inducted. And I sat
:14:46. > :14:50.and I listened to them. Everybody sharing the events of the past
:14:51. > :14:55.year. Not one single church is not wrestling with this crisis. They may
:14:56. > :14:58.be wrestling but I can think of no other major denomination where the
:14:59. > :15:03.chief of the Church has actually said we may have to separate because
:15:04. > :15:08.of the differences within our Communion. And that is precisely
:15:09. > :15:17.what Justin Welby has said. Have you read his letter or are you following
:15:18. > :15:22.what you read in the Guardian? Have you read the letter? I have seen one
:15:23. > :15:25.senior Anglican officials saying it may not be a complete divorce but
:15:26. > :15:32.we're going to have to sleep in separate bedrooms. What kind of
:15:33. > :15:37.Church is that? Excuse me. That the new church person is not an
:15:38. > :15:40.instrument. -- that senior Church person. I can assure you that if you
:15:41. > :15:47.read that letter, there is nowhere in the latter were the Archbishop of
:15:48. > :15:54.Canterbury has said that. However, even if the primates when they
:15:55. > :16:00.meeting January decide this is the way the Communion will go, they
:16:01. > :16:03.cannot implement it. That is the caveat. You are now getting
:16:04. > :16:08.interprocess. I'm just getting into what I see in front of my nose. One
:16:09. > :16:10.thing I see is that you are fallen out big time with your own
:16:11. > :16:15.colleagues in the Nigerian Anglican community. You think so? Because of
:16:16. > :16:19.the job you have taken. They call you a allowed. One says you should
:16:20. > :16:23.never have taken this job of Secretary General of the Anglican
:16:24. > :16:27.Communion because of the impaired relationship we have in Nigeria with
:16:28. > :16:31.the Anglican Church in the West. You should not have taken the job. It
:16:32. > :16:35.was wrong because you did not tell your Nigerian colleagues who had the
:16:36. > :16:46.intention of doing that. I did not have to tell them. I'm a bishop...
:16:47. > :16:52.Did you tell the Bishop of ... He says it is absolutely wrong. He is a
:16:53. > :16:55.bishop, he is a colleague of yours. He is a colleague of mine but does
:16:56. > :16:58.he actually understand the ethos of Anglicanism? Does he understand what
:16:59. > :17:04.the job of a bishop is? Is a bishop in this church in this Communion, I
:17:05. > :17:09.have a right to serve anywhere within the Communion. But what he
:17:10. > :17:14.appears to understand for himself is that his form of Anglicanism
:17:15. > :17:20.involves regarding homosexuality as a sin, as evil, and seeing the
:17:21. > :17:27.Church as for and a day being opposed to any notion of gay
:17:28. > :17:33.bishops, of accepting homosexuality in the priesthood. He believes that
:17:34. > :17:38.you have now joined the hierarchy that is selling out on fundamental
:17:39. > :17:50.principles. Are you reading into the statement he made? Has what you have
:17:51. > :17:53.said they written down? If so, with due respect to him and others, I
:17:54. > :17:59.would refer them to the position of the Anglican Communion. There is a
:18:00. > :18:04.mistake. A huge number of leaders within this Communion are making
:18:05. > :18:10.this mistake, particularly from Africa. This Church has a position
:18:11. > :18:17.on human sexuality, which is clearly stated in resolution 110 of the 1998
:18:18. > :18:23.Lambeth conference. It is very clear and that is our position. My job is
:18:24. > :18:30.to defend this position. What this bishop has said is completely out of
:18:31. > :18:34.that resolution. With respect, it is not clear. In 2014, you told the new
:18:35. > :18:40.Telegraph newspaper that he favoured supporting the criminalisation of
:18:41. > :18:43.homosexuality in Nigeria. And now you see that you don't actually
:18:44. > :18:50.support it and you have no position on it. Well, my position as
:18:51. > :18:59.Secretary General is the position of the Communion and I am obliged to
:19:00. > :19:02.defend that position. My audience is not going to want to know the
:19:03. > :19:06.process of being Secretary General. They are just going to want to know
:19:07. > :19:09.what is in your heart. Do you believe, like the Nigerian
:19:10. > :19:14.government does, and as the Nigerian law says, that homosexuality is a
:19:15. > :19:20.criminal act? Yes or no? As an Anglican following resolution 110,
:19:21. > :19:28.no. Resolution 110 says that we cannot vilify or criminalise
:19:29. > :19:31.homosexuality. So, you are completely out of step with the
:19:32. > :19:35.leadership of the Church in your own country, Nigeria, and you are out of
:19:36. > :19:39.this with your own government. Well, I have a position. I can be
:19:40. > :19:46.out of step with my government because my loyalty is to Jesus
:19:47. > :19:52.Christ. And the Anglican Communion is part of the Church of Jesus
:19:53. > :19:58.Christ. After praying, consulting, we came up with this position and
:19:59. > :20:03.this position has not changed. If the Communion decides today to
:20:04. > :20:08.change that position, I have the right to either keep to it or
:20:09. > :20:13.withdraw. The global Anglican forum which gathers together many of the
:20:14. > :20:16.more conservative elements in the African Church and conservative
:20:17. > :20:22.elements from other man -- other parts of the world in the Communion,
:20:23. > :20:30.it is quite clearly organising two is not break away from the
:20:31. > :20:34.Archbishop of Canterbury and the mainstreaming Church to suddenly put
:20:35. > :20:38.as much pressure as possible on the Archbishop of Canterbury to ensure
:20:39. > :20:43.that he does not embrace, for example, gay marriage inside
:20:44. > :20:49.churches as the Episcopalians in America have embraced it. Do you see
:20:50. > :20:54.that ultimately, as he has said, that separation at least temporarily
:20:55. > :20:57.may have to happen? You remember earlier that I didn't say to you
:20:58. > :21:02.that there is no Church that is not wrestling with this. There are
:21:03. > :21:08.various ways of being a Communion. And I would appeal to the bishops
:21:09. > :21:15.like the one you mentioned to look at what is happening in other
:21:16. > :21:20.churches. That is number one. Secondly, church... The Church is a
:21:21. > :21:27.human organisation but it is not under the control of human beings.
:21:28. > :21:31.Jesus says it will build my Church. And the gates of hell shall not
:21:32. > :21:36.prevail against it. This will not be the first... This is not the first
:21:37. > :21:41.time that the Church is having to wrestle with an issue, a divisive
:21:42. > :21:46.and sensitive issue, like the question of human sexuality. You are
:21:47. > :21:49.absolutely right about that but perhaps there has never been a time
:21:50. > :21:53.where the disconnect between what the Church internally is obsessed by
:21:54. > :21:57.and what Christians in their daily lives are facing in countries like
:21:58. > :22:02.Nigeria, Sudan and area. The disconnect has arguably never been
:22:03. > :22:06.greater. Why is the Anglican Communion is so obsessed with
:22:07. > :22:10.navelgazing on these issues of sexuality when there are so many
:22:11. > :22:14.greater challenges facing ordinary Christians in so many parts of the
:22:15. > :22:21.world? And that is why I would advise my brothers and sisters who
:22:22. > :22:28.come together and tried to make this issue dividing issue to listen to
:22:29. > :22:36.the Archbishop of Canterbury. To proclaim the Gospel. To fight the
:22:37. > :22:41.other ills in our society. Islamic extremism, corruption, which is
:22:42. > :22:50.crippling many parts of the world, especially in Africa and my own
:22:51. > :22:56.country. The question of bad governance. But you have not
:22:57. > :23:00.answered my question. Why is it that facing all of those real
:23:01. > :23:07.challenges, the Church is still so inward looking and preoccupied with
:23:08. > :23:13.sex? Why? Which Judge? Your Church. My Church? How many of the provinces
:23:14. > :23:16.are obsessed? Is it a power struggle? Let us be honest. Is it a
:23:17. > :23:21.power struggle between those in Africa? And Nigeria would be a great
:23:22. > :23:24.example because you have such a large number of questions, including
:23:25. > :23:29.Anglicans. Is it a power struggle between the emerging economies and
:23:30. > :23:33.the developing world and the old establishment in the UK and US? Is
:23:34. > :23:40.that what it is about? That is part of it and I say that as an insider.
:23:41. > :23:44.That is part of it. However, I think it is more than that. The coaches
:23:45. > :23:53.are changing. Western culture is changing. Even nonwestern cultures
:23:54. > :23:58.are changing. And one of perceive there is a change coming, everybody
:23:59. > :24:05.is afraid of change. And change is inevitable. What I would say to
:24:06. > :24:10.people like the global South is this. We must find the ways and
:24:11. > :24:17.means of presenting Jesus Christ to the various cultures. We have to
:24:18. > :24:43.wend there. I do thank you for being on the programme, Archbishop.
:24:44. > :24:49.The Christmas trees may be up but the winter duvet's certainly
:24:50. > :24:53.We've got very mild weather with us being dragged all the way