:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. Israel declares gruesome to be it undivided
:00:20. > :00:24.capital, but the physical evidence inside the city points to a
:00:25. > :00:33.different reality -- Jerusalem. -- is a city of checkpoints, barriers,
:00:34. > :00:41.and tension. My guest is Nir Barkat, a self-made tech millionaire tipped
:00:42. > :00:45.for a big future in the Likud party. He talks about turning Jerusalem
:00:46. > :00:49.into a global city, hosting 10 million tourists a year. How
:00:50. > :01:16.credible is his vision of Jerusalem's future?
:01:17. > :01:26.Mayor Nir Barkat in Jerusalem, welcome to HARDtalk. Let me start by
:01:27. > :01:30.reflecting on what you said when you came to become mayor more than seven
:01:31. > :01:36.years ago. You said you would save Jerusalem. But if we as outsiders
:01:37. > :01:44.look at the city today, it seems more tense, for fear, and full of
:01:45. > :01:50.division than ever before. Let me give you the facts. Tourism has
:01:51. > :01:55.moved from 2 million to almost 4 million tourists a year. Jerusalem
:01:56. > :02:01.has become one of the top ten most attractive site for tourists. 99% of
:02:02. > :02:07.the tourists go back home reference of all. Our crime rates, terrorism
:02:08. > :02:12.and murder together, are ASBO is London. We are one of the safest
:02:13. > :02:21.cities in the world. -- are as safe as London. People don't understand
:02:22. > :02:25.the dynamics of our city, but I am optimistic as to our future. We have
:02:26. > :02:30.challenges and are in the forefront of another wave of terror that we
:02:31. > :02:36.have to learn from in how to manage it, and we are managing it, but the
:02:37. > :02:41.vision and understanding of the role of Jerusalem has not changed. I am
:02:42. > :02:45.optimistic. The recipe is to avoid watching the TV news to be
:02:46. > :02:50.optimistic about Jerusalem? You see that's Jerusalem is the key cockpit
:02:51. > :02:56.of the current round of violence between Muslim Arabs and Jews. We
:02:57. > :03:03.have seen more stabbing attacks, more of the general violence in's
:03:04. > :03:09.than anywhere else. -- in Jerusalem. I want to emphasise the statistics.
:03:10. > :03:13.If you put all of the crime together, we are as safe as London.
:03:14. > :03:18.Get some perspective. Just north of us, 2000 people were killed in Syria
:03:19. > :03:25.and Iraq, and look what is happening in Gaza and Lebanon. Jerusalem and
:03:26. > :03:31.Israel in general is a safe haven in the middle east. Let me stop you. I
:03:32. > :03:37.appreciate your effort to make things sound positive, you are the
:03:38. > :03:43.mayor who in the autumn of last year advised all Jerusalem Jewish
:03:44. > :03:48.residents to carry a pistol. What kind of message is that? That is
:03:49. > :03:56.something that is hard to understand. In America and Europe,
:03:57. > :04:02.considering only 3% of Israel is carry guns, and the ones who do are
:04:03. > :04:06.well trained. They are only professionals who do 30 days of
:04:07. > :04:10.reserve per year. When they get engaged, we know how to engage in
:04:11. > :04:14.combat. The reality is over one third of the incidents where
:04:15. > :04:19.terrorists were neutralised, it was not made by police, it was made by
:04:20. > :04:23.civilians who know how to use their weapons. This is an advantage we
:04:24. > :04:28.have that is difficult to understand in the Western world. The reality is
:04:29. > :04:33.when you have lone wolf attackers with knives and you don't know where
:04:34. > :04:39.they come from, there is no intelligence about it, distribution
:04:40. > :04:44.of arms, people are trained, and thank God. It takes less than 62
:04:45. > :04:49.seconds when there is a terror attack for somebody, maybe police or
:04:50. > :04:53.civilians, to engage and eliminate the threat. You have personal
:04:54. > :04:57.experience of this, because not so long ago you witnessed an assailant
:04:58. > :05:01.with a knife undertaking an attack on the streets of Jerusalem. The
:05:02. > :05:06.bodyguards and you rush to the scene. Your bodyguard to a gun and
:05:07. > :05:11.you were one of the people who apprehended the salmon. Given that
:05:12. > :05:16.experience and no shot was never fired in that situation, how do you
:05:17. > :05:21.feel about senior Israeli politicians saying that in his view,
:05:22. > :05:25.if anyone was seen to pull out a knife or even a screwdriver, to
:05:26. > :05:31.quote him, don't hesitate, shoot to kill. Do you think that is the right
:05:32. > :05:38.and responsible message to send? I will explain. We agree. In the case
:05:39. > :05:43.that I faced a terrorist with a knife in his hand, he dropped the
:05:44. > :05:50.knife. If somebody dropped the knife and can be caught, we do that. But
:05:51. > :05:53.if that same person charged me, imagine yourself somebody comes to
:05:54. > :05:58.you with a knife and wants to kill you. You kill them first. There is
:05:59. > :06:02.no time to think. It is all instinct and what you were trained and told
:06:03. > :06:06.to do. If the person is unarmed, you jump them like I did. It goes well
:06:07. > :06:12.together. We are very ethical people. The Israelis, the Israeli
:06:13. > :06:17.army, we understand the ethics better than anyone else. If somebody
:06:18. > :06:24.is not a threat any more, he will be taken and treated in a hospital.
:06:25. > :06:28.Sometimes he goes to the hospital in Jerusalem NUC guitarist and the
:06:29. > :06:36.victim next to each other. -- you see the terrorist and the victim.
:06:37. > :06:41.The reality is... Do you think it is wise for politicians, and you are a
:06:42. > :06:47.politician, to be pronouncing what they think citizens should do when
:06:48. > :06:52.in fact Israel has laws that govern what can and can't be done. It is
:06:53. > :06:56.not for you as politicians to inflame emotions and in this sort of
:06:57. > :07:02.way when the law in Israel is quite straightforward? First, what I am
:07:03. > :07:07.saying is it is differently part of the role. The police instructions
:07:08. > :07:11.are the same. If somebody comes to kill you, or somebody in the street,
:07:12. > :07:18.you engage and eliminate the threat. You killed them. But if he is
:07:19. > :07:24.caught, and is not a hazard any more but he has stopped, then you take
:07:25. > :07:34.them in like anybody else. It is very clear under more. -- under law.
:07:35. > :07:38.People expect to hear my opinion is what we should do when terrorists
:07:39. > :07:43.come. We should defend ourselves. What is happening today in Israel
:07:44. > :07:48.and in Jerusalem is global. It is not local, it is a global issue. I
:07:49. > :07:53.advise you to learn how we deal with are situations. We are doing it
:07:54. > :07:58.quite well. It becomes global unfortunately. I lived in Jerusalem
:07:59. > :08:03.for several years. It has changed a lot, not least because there are new
:08:04. > :08:09.security barriers, new checkpoints in place. This idea that Jerusalem
:08:10. > :08:15.is an open and undivided city is patently not true. It is more
:08:16. > :08:22.divided by armed checkpoints and the security wall and everything else.
:08:23. > :08:27.Let me give you some facts. The security fence does its job and it
:08:28. > :08:32.does eliminate people coming in and hurting people inside Israel. It has
:08:33. > :08:39.been there over 15 years. It is a division. It is a myth that it is an
:08:40. > :08:44.undivided Israel. That is not true. The security fences and everything
:08:45. > :08:49.in them is the United city. That is not factually correct. There are
:08:50. > :08:55.tens of thousands of Palestinians who are on the other side of the
:08:56. > :09:03.security wall in ayes. Indeed, and we have parts of Jerusalem inside
:09:04. > :09:06.the fence. The fence is not 100% in line with the border, and I agreed
:09:07. > :09:13.that is a challenge. But Intel only in the city -- internally, which is
:09:14. > :09:25.the majority of the city, people can go freely to place a slack. ! Freely
:09:26. > :09:30.from place to face. We have a pic of terror, we put in the box to prevent
:09:31. > :09:36.more killing. -- roadblocks. As of today, there is only one roadblock
:09:37. > :09:43.in a neighbourhood challenging security. We have talked about
:09:44. > :09:47.security, but let's talk about what you raised in public recently. You
:09:48. > :09:51.said I am a strong believer in profiling. Profiling keeps the
:09:52. > :09:56.citizens of Jerusalem safe, you said. What do you mean by profiling
:09:57. > :10:07.and who are you profiling? The security forces of Israel know their
:10:08. > :10:13.business extremely well. If they think there are extreme Muslims or
:10:14. > :10:21.radical Jews, they will sit on them to make sure and prevent people from
:10:22. > :10:26.creating terror attacks. It goes for extremists from all sides. We have
:10:27. > :10:32.just heard as recently as this week that the security forces were able
:10:33. > :10:39.to catch the extreme Jews... But with respect, I appreciate that
:10:40. > :10:44.answer, but I don't think anybody in the outside world believes the
:10:45. > :10:48.security forces spent as much time profiling and seeking out Jewish
:10:49. > :10:53.extremists as it does was an Arab extremists. I am struck by what the
:10:54. > :10:57.Israeli minister said the other day when he went to the site of the
:10:58. > :11:02.latest terror attack in Tel Aviv where two people were killed by a
:11:03. > :11:12.gunman. He talked about on claves. He clearly meant Arab communities,
:11:13. > :11:17.with was the most -- was propaganda. This was not pointing to individual
:11:18. > :11:25.that endangers, he was tainting an entire community. -- enclaves. Do
:11:26. > :11:28.you do the same? In Jerusalem, I have a very good relationship with
:11:29. > :11:34.local leadership in Arab neighbourhoods. It is the community
:11:35. > :11:39.council leaders, business people, school principals, people in
:11:40. > :11:44.welfare. We work with them on a daily basis. Do you disown the words
:11:45. > :11:48.of your own Prime Minister, and then you have always supported? In the
:11:49. > :11:54.words of the newspaper, do you think what he said was very close to
:11:55. > :11:59.outright racism? Don't put words in his or my mouth. Let me share what
:12:00. > :12:02.is happening on the ground. The majority of the Muslim population in
:12:03. > :12:09.Jerusalem want to move their life. They are the first to suffer when
:12:10. > :12:14.riots and terror attacks happen. -- leave their life. They lose
:12:15. > :12:19.business. They asked the help and I help them as much as I can. We need
:12:20. > :12:25.to focus on the radical people that have bad intentions, that I moved to
:12:26. > :12:30.terror. We have to isolate those bad people, and unfortunately, the
:12:31. > :12:35.majority of the bad people, which are a minority, to decide on some of
:12:36. > :12:39.the Arab neighbourhoods. But if they reside in Jewish neighbourhoods, we
:12:40. > :12:44.will go after them as well. It is about King Smart. You need to
:12:45. > :12:51.differentiate between good and bad people, with the be Muslims or Jews.
:12:52. > :12:55.-- being smart. White you think there is so much hate in was on
:12:56. > :13:06.committees in Jerusalem? Why'd you think those feelings exist? -- was
:13:07. > :13:13.on -- was one communities. This violence was incited by radical was
:13:14. > :13:23.once who told lies. It will not happen. Our national government, our
:13:24. > :13:30.mayors and police are dedicated. Unfortunately, in social media, many
:13:31. > :13:35.lies were told. We see how many young teenagers believe those lies,
:13:36. > :13:42.and God forbid something happens to the Temple Mount. Unfortunately,
:13:43. > :13:45.again and again, the national government and ourselves are telling
:13:46. > :13:52.them we are committed to maintaining status quo. Over three million
:13:53. > :13:57.Muslims go to the Temple Mount. And 12,000 Jews. It does not change and
:13:58. > :14:02.it will not change. The status quo will not change. Unfortunately, they
:14:03. > :14:09.all think there will be change, and we have to work very hard... You
:14:10. > :14:14.have raised one area of tension, which is access to the holiest of
:14:15. > :14:20.places for Muslims. You call it the Temple Mount. Clearly that has been
:14:21. > :14:24.a factor. But I spoke not so long ago to one of the most senior
:14:25. > :14:29.Palestinian negotiators, close to the top of the Palestinian
:14:30. > :14:32.leadership. He almost cried with frustration when I put it to him
:14:33. > :14:37.that Israelis see ideological reasons behind the incitement as you
:14:38. > :14:43.put it of young Palestinian men, don't they understand as long as
:14:44. > :14:47.Israel refuses to engage on the question of settlements, the
:14:48. > :14:53.question of every mystic negotiation of a two state solution, these
:14:54. > :15:02.people, the anger, the hate will continue. Do you not get that?
:15:03. > :15:09.No, I don't. I understand he is trying to politicise the situation,
:15:10. > :15:14.but this type of violence was created on a lie. I am personally
:15:15. > :15:18.committed, as is the national government, not to change that. I
:15:19. > :15:23.also want to tell you that he does not speak on behalf of Jerusalem.
:15:24. > :15:28.Our independent polls understand that the city would do much better
:15:29. > :15:37.being part of a united city, the majority do not believe in dividing
:15:38. > :15:43.the city. It is against the DNA of Jerusalem. The Arabs injuries will
:15:44. > :15:48.have by far a better quality of life than anywhere else in the Middle
:15:49. > :15:52.East -- in to wrestle. Even your claims on the city, you should not
:15:53. > :15:56.be comparing them against the situation in Syria. You should be
:15:57. > :16:07.comparing them with lives of Israelis lucky enough to live in Tel
:16:08. > :16:12.Aviv or West Jerusalem. If you look at the statistics, 75% of East
:16:13. > :16:18.Jerusalem residents live under the poverty line. One third do not have
:16:19. > :16:22.access to water. Your rhetoric about a united Jerusalem is nonsense. For
:16:23. > :16:29.these people, life is second class in your city. First of all, not all
:16:30. > :16:35.your facts are correct. We have problems on the west side as well.
:16:36. > :16:44.The poverty is not restricted to the Muslims... Oh, come on. The poverty
:16:45. > :16:50.figures in East Jerusalem dwarf that in the West. There are other places
:16:51. > :16:53.in the Middle East... Point is that you say everyone is treated the same
:16:54. > :17:01.in Jerusalem and that is why Arabs are happy to be subjected to
:17:02. > :17:05.annexation. That is just not true. I think you are putting the wrong
:17:06. > :17:09.facts on the table. The relative perspectives I could show,
:17:10. > :17:16.demonstrate that we are getting better each year. When I came into
:17:17. > :17:21.office seven years ago, only 30% of the residents felt we were in the
:17:22. > :17:27.right direction, now it is 50%. We can demonstrate a better schooling,
:17:28. > :17:33.infrastructure, more jobs. What is important to the Arab residents, we
:17:34. > :17:42.are making better, not worse. What you haven't mentioned are things to
:17:43. > :17:51.do with housing, building permits. Even now, thousands of housing plans
:17:52. > :18:00.have been sanctioned. By your government. At the same time, we see
:18:01. > :18:05.that 14,000 Palestinians have had their residency revoked since 1967.
:18:06. > :18:10.It is almost impossible or most Palestinians to get permission to
:18:11. > :18:17.build housing on empty land in East Jerusalem. The reality is that they
:18:18. > :18:21.are second-class citizens. First of all, let me give you and other point
:18:22. > :18:26.of reference. The number of Arab residents into Rhuddlan is growing
:18:27. > :18:35.faster than the Jewish residents. That is because more of them... Let
:18:36. > :18:38.me finish my sentence. The reality is that the municipality is totally
:18:39. > :18:42.committed to increasing the number of permits we give. It is growing in
:18:43. > :18:51.absolute numbers and relatives numbers. -- relative. The land is
:18:52. > :18:56.not registered, we don't always know if he is feeling his neighbour 's
:18:57. > :19:02.land. We are overcoming these legal challenges, and I can demonstrate
:19:03. > :19:08.power. We have on average over 1000 new permits a year... -- demonstrate
:19:09. > :19:19.power. Are you telling me that the UN and others, who have looked at
:19:20. > :19:29.the statistics, over 3000 permits are given to Jews and Arabs... That
:19:30. > :19:34.is plain wrong. The Arab population is growing faster. That has nothing
:19:35. > :19:42.to do with what I just quoted to you. The population figures depend
:19:43. > :19:49.on birth rate. I am talking about new construction. The difference is
:19:50. > :19:55.that on the Arab side, most of the Arab land is private. They build
:19:56. > :20:02.their own homes. They are scaling faster than the Jewish population.
:20:03. > :20:06.Land owned by the National government is sold to the highest
:20:07. > :20:11.bidder. Anybody can buy a house, nobody knows what religion they are
:20:12. > :20:16.when they buy the land. Israel is committed to enabling solutions for
:20:17. > :20:24.all people. The majority of Arabs build it on private land. Israel is
:20:25. > :20:28.dished out to the highest bidder. All the statistics are very
:20:29. > :20:32.politicised. They are, and the statistics you are using are very
:20:33. > :20:40.different from the ones that the UN are using. And those that Israeli
:20:41. > :20:46.human rights groups use. As Mira Jerusalem, Doctor -- Mayor of
:20:47. > :20:51.Jerusalem, unless you add other Israeli politicians recognise that
:20:52. > :20:54.there has to be a sharing of the sovereignty of Jerusalem for a two
:20:55. > :20:59.state solution to what, if you aren't prepared to accept that then
:21:00. > :21:03.there can never be a meaningful peace negotiation, Tanah? Are you
:21:04. > :21:11.comfortable with the position that you and your city are in -- can
:21:12. > :21:17.there? We must focus on the common denominator. 3000 years ago, kings
:21:18. > :21:24.and profits walked here. 1600 years before Muslims came into the world,
:21:25. > :21:29.bear with me... The fact is that Jerusalem will never be divided. Let
:21:30. > :21:37.us not go back 1600 years, let us talk about recent history. The last
:21:38. > :21:42.prime ministers, all were prepared as realistic, pragmatic politicians,
:21:43. > :21:48.to accept that they would have to be a deal with the Palestinians over
:21:49. > :21:56.Jerusalem. Some shared sovereignty and shared position of the holy
:21:57. > :22:07.places, why won't you? The chapters are open to... Answer my question.
:22:08. > :22:13.Don't answer your own question. I disagree, I think it is a bad deal.
:22:14. > :22:19.Don't do a bad deal. What we need to do is make sure we can function
:22:20. > :22:23.better, as we are doing. Listen to all the critics in the world, and no
:22:24. > :22:28.we are making progress year after year -- churches. I am committed to
:22:29. > :22:34.all of my residence, Muslims, Christians and Jews. We are getting
:22:35. > :22:42.better. Far better than our region and what people put on the wall as a
:22:43. > :22:48.bad deal. Jerusalem will never be divided. People talk of you as the
:22:49. > :22:53.possible next leader of the Likud party. They say it needs a new
:22:54. > :22:59.spirit. Is that your way of saying to Benjamin Netanyahu, it is time
:23:00. > :23:04.for you to move aside, I am taking over? No, I want to finish my term.
:23:05. > :23:08.I have not decided whether to run for a third term. In any case, I
:23:09. > :23:15.will support Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud party, I believe in their
:23:16. > :23:19.strategies. It is my home and I want to grow. I want to have my home in
:23:20. > :23:25.the Likud party. It seems that Benjamin Netanyahu is trying to
:23:26. > :23:31.ensure that his grip on party and power continues. He may be trying to
:23:32. > :23:35.freeze you out. How do you feel about that? I have no problem with
:23:36. > :23:39.those decisions. I will support Benjamin Netanyahu and the party and
:23:40. > :23:46.I am focusing on Jerusalem's future. I am very happy. I think what you
:23:47. > :23:59.hear at in the news that make here in the news is not the reality on
:24:00. > :24:17.the ground -- hear in the news. Thank you for joining me.
:24:18. > :24:19.The rest of the night will be unsettled.
:24:20. > :24:24.Low pressure sitting on top of the UK, generating some heavy
:24:25. > :24:28.Low pressure of most concern in the North is the area