:00:00. > :00:16.Now on BBC News it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, I am
:00:17. > :00:22.Stephen Sackur. The stories we tell ourselves tells much about the Times
:00:23. > :00:25.and places we live in. What should we make of the fiction coming out of
:00:26. > :00:30.Africa in the two generation since the continent are merged from
:00:31. > :00:34.colonial rule. How free are the African storytellers to explore the
:00:35. > :00:39.richness and diversity of the continent? My guess is the
:00:40. > :00:49.international novelist and poet, Ben Okri. His life has straddled Nigeria
:00:50. > :01:13.and the UK. Is a such a thing as an African voice? -- there.
:01:14. > :01:22.Ben Okri, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much. I have interviewed
:01:23. > :01:32.many novelists but never one that has published two works of fiction
:01:33. > :01:38.by the ripe old age of 22. What gave you the so young to weave stories?
:01:39. > :01:47.It is hard to say because my original impulse was to be a
:01:48. > :01:54.scientist. I was fascinated by innovation, by ways in which one can
:01:55. > :02:03.shape the world through the mind. Science and its analysis was my
:02:04. > :02:15.initial dream. Science draped in materialism, but your stories mixed
:02:16. > :02:23.white we would call reality and fantasy -- with what. For the right
:02:24. > :02:31.of those two things are very important. Patron is amount of
:02:32. > :02:37.rationality -- a tremendous amount of rationality. You can also tell a
:02:38. > :02:43.great piece of writing by that which clarity cannot do. That which
:02:44. > :02:47.analysis cannot achieve, the layers of thought cannot get to. It is
:02:48. > :02:54.intuitive. The wisdoms of the heart, as it were. The wisdoms of
:02:55. > :02:57.the heart, I wonder if some of those came through the traditions of
:02:58. > :03:07.storytelling that your mother in particular was deeply embedded
:03:08. > :03:14.with. Not just my mother, but she was the greatest exponent of
:03:15. > :03:19.enigmatic storytelling. She always told me stories that were in direct.
:03:20. > :03:24.It took me a long time to learn the value of indirection. We tend to
:03:25. > :03:29.think that direct stories are the best stories, and they are in
:03:30. > :03:33.certain circumstances, but the ones that haunt us are the indirect
:03:34. > :03:39.ones. Are you saying that she would not give you rules to live by but
:03:40. > :03:44.she would tell you allegories? If I was listening wrong she would say
:03:45. > :03:48.let me tell you a story. And she would tell me one that appears to
:03:49. > :03:57.have no point. Sometimes she would not finish the story and I would be
:03:58. > :04:01.left with an unfinished story. It may me think about what you were
:04:02. > :04:06.saying what more. I came up with ten different combinations and
:04:07. > :04:11.conclusions from these mysterious and indirect story. And it has now
:04:12. > :04:15.become an important part of my writing practice, even my
:04:16. > :04:21.conversation with friends, I'm very insulated because of that reason.
:04:22. > :04:29.You go around about the direct answers. I think indirection is much
:04:30. > :04:37.more fascinating and much more conversationally explorative.
:04:38. > :04:41.Indirection makes you dance wears direction just makes you shake
:04:42. > :04:45.hands. I will try to make you dance in this conversation. To talk to you
:04:46. > :04:50.about something I raised in the introduction. You were born in
:04:51. > :04:53.Nigeria, and spent some of your childhood in south London and then
:04:54. > :05:00.went back to Nigeria at the time of great conflict in the country. You
:05:01. > :05:08.are from Africa, but you are from the West as well, does that mean you
:05:09. > :05:16.are an outsider to those cultures. I'm an outsider and insider to both
:05:17. > :05:28.cultures. Nigeria is an incredible possibly eat as it has to do with
:05:29. > :05:40.synthesis. -- place to be because. During the Civil War, having to deal
:05:41. > :05:48.with the difficulty of my upbringing, someone has to reconcile
:05:49. > :05:55.the deeply divided nation in the division in a sense. Did that colour
:05:56. > :06:03.you a great deal? Because he was so young at the time. Of course. I
:06:04. > :06:12.don't know how young you were at the time, so did you see death? I saw
:06:13. > :06:16.bodies floating on the banks, I saw people dead and shot. I lost friends
:06:17. > :06:22.and people just disappeared on the street, relations just vanished. You
:06:23. > :06:29.saw armoured trucks driving past and bombs being dropped. The war was
:06:30. > :06:33.important part of my consciousness. All the questions I find myself
:06:34. > :06:41.asking about life in my writing. I tell you what interests me about
:06:42. > :06:45.that. You have commented upon the propensity of a lot of young African
:06:46. > :06:53.writers to write about the problems and the sufferings of African people
:06:54. > :07:01.in a direct way. US said that there should be room for more imagination,
:07:02. > :07:15.more at ambition, more creativity when they write about their own
:07:16. > :07:19.stories -- you said. I haven't written directly about them and that
:07:20. > :07:24.is why I know that direct is not the best way. I have written directly
:07:25. > :07:27.about them, I have thought correctly about them and I are Frederick Lee
:07:28. > :07:31.about them and they are very powerful and they can be very
:07:32. > :07:35.important and they are very important in terms of bearing
:07:36. > :07:41.witness to a particular period of the nation's history. Of a people's
:07:42. > :07:46.history. Particular to the struggles and injustices. We're talking about
:07:47. > :07:51.literature here, we're not talking about journalism or just making a
:07:52. > :07:54.record. We're talking about literature which is more than the
:07:55. > :08:02.sum total of our suffering, it is also the sum total of our dreams,
:08:03. > :08:10.playfulness and hope. Is a place of humour, sense of dance, sense of
:08:11. > :08:22.astonishment. Is a huge universe. Dreams, fantasy, magic they are all
:08:23. > :08:32.elements that appear in the Famished Road. I wonder when you won the
:08:33. > :08:37.prize for the book, 20 years on, is today's Nigeria still full of
:08:38. > :08:45.magic, myth, tradition as it was then. Of course it is. Tradition
:08:46. > :08:53.will never entirely disappears. It is so richly steeped. It is not
:08:54. > :09:12.going to go, ever. It might be deleted and changed by Western
:09:13. > :09:18.modes, but it is still there. It focuses on the main protagonists who
:09:19. > :09:21.is a spirit child who comes to a earth and then returns to the spirit
:09:22. > :09:28.realm and is reincarnated many times. This particular one stays on
:09:29. > :09:32.earth. You still engage with what is happening in the city and with his
:09:33. > :09:37.parents. I wonder whether, because you spend most of your time outside
:09:38. > :09:43.Nigeria, you could write that sort of talk today so deeply embedded in
:09:44. > :09:49.a culture and a spirit that is of its place and that is not your place
:09:50. > :09:55.any more. I don't think the writer has any fixed place in that sense. I
:09:56. > :10:01.think the real place of the writer is actually what has shaped the
:10:02. > :10:11.matrix of the imagination. And that does not leave you when you go. Has
:10:12. > :10:21.the Ben Okri changed? Because of experience the Ben Okri must be a
:10:22. > :10:28.different man than wrote that book. More tranquil I might think. Candi
:10:29. > :10:34.Ben Okri writes the book now? Because he has written it already.
:10:35. > :10:39.I'm a great believer of not repeating it. We need to constantly
:10:40. > :10:47.evolve and take on new challenges. For me, one of the really important
:10:48. > :10:53.challenges of being a writer is being able to witness, on as many
:10:54. > :11:09.levels of possible to the fullest of one experience. My express has
:11:10. > :11:13.evolved. -- experience. How do you respond when some African writers
:11:14. > :11:17.get annoyed that when you call for them to be as free as they can with
:11:18. > :11:20.their imaginations, you seem to be prescriptive because you are telling
:11:21. > :11:32.them what they are writing at the moment is a bit monotonous and
:11:33. > :11:37.bleak. No. I will do you a quote -- give. The charge that it is too
:11:38. > :11:42.political dismisses in one blow but the world that we live in and the
:11:43. > :11:47.possibilities of a political literature and it is beyond
:11:48. > :11:54.depressing hearing a writer of Ben Okri's stature who writes powerfully
:11:55. > :12:00.about the subjects to board what she calls, this broken down train. I
:12:01. > :12:04.think she needs to do some rethinking. I don't think the
:12:05. > :12:08.writer's main point is to be political. The primary
:12:09. > :12:13.responsibility is to bear witness to what it is to be human in the
:12:14. > :12:19.fullest possible sense. And the political is only one aspect of
:12:20. > :12:24.this. When I wrote that essay, I was particularly concerned about what it
:12:25. > :12:27.means to have a literature. To have a body of work that you call
:12:28. > :12:36.literature. And I look at the literatures of many peoples and I am
:12:37. > :12:41.a little bit envious. In Spanish you are very serious writers, political
:12:42. > :12:45.and playful writers. Europe looks that speak to all the different
:12:46. > :12:50.moods that you want to experience. You can actually read the literature
:12:51. > :12:55.and go through a 100 different moods. I think that is what it is.
:12:56. > :13:00.It gives full witnessed as to what it means to be human. I want our
:13:01. > :13:04.literature, of Africa, to have that fullness and richness so that you
:13:05. > :13:10.can read it on all different levels on different days, different times
:13:11. > :13:16.of the year. Whatever is going on in the road and be delighted and
:13:17. > :13:24.stimulated to thought. To have that vastness. I understand. I'm not just
:13:25. > :13:28.simply saying to seize and use what it means to be a writer to day. Is
:13:29. > :13:34.it actually counter-productive to talk about a black or African
:13:35. > :13:40.literature? In a way, is that not just what Western voices tend to
:13:41. > :13:45.do? And why should you even play that game? It is not a game I am
:13:46. > :13:53.playing. I'm silly talking about looking at a body of literature. Why
:13:54. > :14:03.say there is one body from east to west, north to south, is so
:14:04. > :14:10.different. There is such is -- a thing as African literature. I have
:14:11. > :14:14.a lot of problems with it but I need to acknowledge that it is there. It
:14:15. > :14:20.count as a body and it is taught all over the world. I have read it very
:14:21. > :14:24.deeply and I was simply making a comment not about the past, not
:14:25. > :14:29.about the past because you cannot change the past but about the
:14:30. > :14:35.future. The essay was meant to be a teasing piece of rotation to open up
:14:36. > :14:39.our campus and be as full as we want. We don't only need to write
:14:40. > :14:44.about sufferings, saying to the under generation, sees your freedom.
:14:45. > :14:51.The other prescription that areas is just to be free.
:14:52. > :14:56.A final thought on the process of writing and creating and that is the
:14:57. > :15:04.audience, particularly the audience in Africa. Here is the words of a
:15:05. > :15:08.Nigerian writer and novelist. She says literary audiences in many
:15:09. > :15:14.African countries simply sit and wait until Western critics crown a
:15:15. > :15:18.new writer. Then they begin applauding that person. Is there
:15:19. > :15:21.some truth in that? There is a small amount of truth in that, but not the
:15:22. > :15:28.total truth. There are many writers that have emerged from Africa that
:15:29. > :15:31.have been very productive... But internationally acclaimed because of
:15:32. > :15:36.the success they have had with African audiences rather than
:15:37. > :15:44.Western audiences? Yes. Some of the great early writers like Achebe were
:15:45. > :15:49.known first in Nigeria. Achebe was acclaimed first in Nigeria. He was
:15:50. > :15:58.loved and enjoyed among Africans we before the British and Americans
:15:59. > :16:06.caught on. Achebe was... We love them we before they were discovered
:16:07. > :16:13.in America and England. What about Ben Okri? I was known in Nigeria we
:16:14. > :16:16.before. I had a big readership in Nigeria before I came to England.
:16:17. > :16:22.That was the basis of my rather useful confidence, actually. We have
:16:23. > :16:28.taught us for a Bible fiction and tried to place it in context, but
:16:29. > :16:35.you also do right politically. -- talked about your fiction. But you
:16:36. > :16:39.have been very direct on political matters, particularly the current
:16:40. > :16:44.crisis in Nigeria, Boko Haram's insurgency and endemic corruption,
:16:45. > :16:49.and you have said that Nigerians cannot just blame their leaders,
:16:50. > :16:54.they have to accept that their leaders and their failings are very
:16:55. > :16:59.much a reflection of themselves. It is a double problem. It is very much
:17:00. > :17:06.a problem of leadership but there is also the problem of collective
:17:07. > :17:09.sponsorship. We have lead to much at the doors of our leaders and we have
:17:10. > :17:12.been let down and not by them, but I think we need a different kind of
:17:13. > :17:17.emphasis now. I think that collective responsibility... I feel
:17:18. > :17:21.very strongly that a nation is changed not only when leaders
:17:22. > :17:26.implement great changes but when the people themselves realise the power
:17:27. > :17:34.that they have with their voice and protests. Even as a writer rather
:17:35. > :17:40.than a politician, you do have a duty to engage? If I choose to have
:17:41. > :17:45.that duty, yes. Your message seems to be that every human being has
:17:46. > :17:49.that duty. Every human being has the right and responsibility to engage
:17:50. > :17:54.and change their world if they choose to. One cannot impose. You
:17:55. > :18:01.cannot go up to people and say that you must be engaging. People might
:18:02. > :18:05.not want to today this year. That is freedom as well. I think that what
:18:06. > :18:08.we're talking about here is that it is better and richer for the world
:18:09. > :18:22.if individuals take an active interest in the world, yes, but you
:18:23. > :18:26.cannot impose it on them. Back in 2012, this is something that he
:18:27. > :18:31.said. He said the unrest taking place right now as a result of Boko
:18:32. > :18:34.Haram is in my view attaining critical mass. There is too much
:18:35. > :18:41.pussyfooting around, too much false intellectualisation. This, he said,
:18:42. > :18:46.is a war to the very end. He said that in 2012. Is that something you
:18:47. > :18:50.believe about Nigeria and Boko Haram today? I don't know what he means by
:18:51. > :18:56.water the very end. But it is a critical right back row. And it is
:18:57. > :19:00.not just a war with or against Boko Haram, it is something much deeper
:19:01. > :19:02.than that. I think it has today with many things not properly
:19:03. > :19:09.acknowledged about the state of Nigeria today. The hidden religious
:19:10. > :19:14.conflicts, hidden religious agendas of various parties, various
:19:15. > :19:20.individuals. But more profoundly, I think it is poverty. I think that
:19:21. > :19:27.poverty plays into this in a very profound manner. The sense of
:19:28. > :19:32.injustice, the sense of deeply inequitable distribution of wealth.
:19:33. > :19:40.Many of the areas where Boko Haram has gained its biggest success are
:19:41. > :19:44.areas of incredible social... To see it as an ideological problem, to try
:19:45. > :19:51.and get deep inside the strand of Wahhabi Salafist jihadi thought and
:19:52. > :19:55.to see it in that sense is too narrow and a mistake in your view?
:19:56. > :19:59.It is too narrow. That has to be done but there is also a war --
:20:00. > :20:04.bigger social programme that these take place as well. Nigeria just
:20:05. > :20:09.needs to be raised up. The level of its poverty in some parts of the
:20:10. > :20:15.north. If I were that poor, I would do almost anything. I would be as
:20:16. > :20:21.angry. I would go to whoever... You would kill? I would not kill but
:20:22. > :20:26.lack there is a lot of anger in the country and it is not just the
:20:27. > :20:29.Koran. Boko Haram is just one strand. There are other strands
:20:30. > :20:33.emerging because of that, because of this same thing I'm talking about.
:20:34. > :20:37.The Niger Delta is one such strand as well. There are quite a few that
:20:38. > :20:41.are tugging away at the body politic, tugging away at the
:20:42. > :20:45.coherent shape of the nation. I have said it many times that we are
:20:46. > :20:49.constantly on the brink of disintegration. If we don't, for the
:20:50. > :20:58.right sort of reforms or policies to truly transform that country, that
:20:59. > :21:02.deep outrage of the country will continue. Your interest in politics
:21:03. > :21:06.goes beyond Nigeria. It is interesting that the new leader of
:21:07. > :21:11.the UK Labour Party quoted you in his most recent conference speech.
:21:12. > :21:18.The most authentic thing about us is our capacity to create, to overcome,
:21:19. > :21:23.to endure, to transform Antonov. -- and to love. He picked up on your
:21:24. > :21:28.message that even politicians have to be creative people. Just remind
:21:29. > :21:36.us what you wrote in response to that. I will have to get my
:21:37. > :21:40.glasses. Yes, it was a poem that I wrote in reaction to politics in our
:21:41. > :21:44.times and it goes like this. It looks with hard eyes at the hard
:21:45. > :21:51.world and shakes it with a ruler's edge, measuring what is possible
:21:52. > :21:58.against a claim, support and votes. And it went on to say something like
:21:59. > :22:04.this. We live in hard times that have lost this tough art of dreaming
:22:05. > :22:09.the best for its people, or so we are told by cynics and doomsayers.
:22:10. > :22:13.But dreaming? Is that what politicians are meant to do? They're
:22:14. > :22:17.supposed to be practical implement as a policy. But policies have to be
:22:18. > :22:22.trapped. They have been as a policy. But policies have to be
:22:23. > :22:24.trapped. They have have to be trapped. They have to be implement
:22:25. > :22:30.against a background of what politicians believe is best for
:22:31. > :22:35.people. Politics without dreams is arid and barren. It is a machine for
:22:36. > :22:41.winning elections. What we need are politicians with great dreams for
:22:42. > :22:44.their people, with a sense of justice, but also the practical
:22:45. > :22:48.capacity to win votes. Those things are important. If you ask me which
:22:49. > :22:52.one is more important, I will say without any hesitation that the
:22:53. > :22:56.people who dream greatest are the ones we need the most. I really
:22:57. > :22:59.believe that we need great dreams. But dream is generally don't win
:23:00. > :23:11.elections. That is not true. They always do. Bill Clinton, JFK,
:23:12. > :23:14.Lincoln. Winston Churchill. He saw dreams of the possibility of coming
:23:15. > :23:19.through that great War when nobody else did. That is what a true
:23:20. > :23:23.dreamer does. They see things that others don't quite see yet and then
:23:24. > :23:28.they worked really hard to make it possible. We need both in politics.
:23:29. > :23:33.We need both in literature. We need both in journalism. We need great
:23:34. > :23:40.dreamers and great achievers in practical dreams. I think it is too
:23:41. > :23:46.early to talk about whether people are elected or not. And amid all of
:23:47. > :23:49.this, I think resilience is very, very important. But you in your
:23:50. > :23:54.literature will keep dreaming. Keep dreaming, keep being resilient and
:23:55. > :24:06.keep being practical. Thank you.