:00:12. > :00:28.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. You could call it female
:00:29. > :00:32.circumcision, cutting, or female genital mutilation. Whatever the
:00:33. > :00:37.label, it is spreading. When US President Barack Obama
:00:38. > :00:40.visited Kenya in 2015, he spoke out against the continued practice
:00:41. > :00:43.of female genital mutilation in He said that FGM has
:00:44. > :00:46."no place in the 21st century." But are there cultural arguments
:00:47. > :01:23.for the practice to continue? Fuambai Ahmadu and Nimco Ali,
:01:24. > :01:30.welcome to HARDtalk Mark. We will have a discussion which is sensitive
:01:31. > :01:34.and challenging, but it is important. We are talking about what
:01:35. > :01:39.happens to millions of girls and women around the world. I want to
:01:40. > :01:44.begin by getting both of you to describe your personal, first-hand
:01:45. > :01:55.experiences, of what we are calling FGM. Could you begin by telling me
:01:56. > :02:01.what happens to you. -- happened. I will say that it is not a term I
:02:02. > :02:06.would use for myself, FGM. I am not mutilated in any way whatsoever. It
:02:07. > :02:12.is a part of female initiation ceremonies in Sierra Leone where I
:02:13. > :02:22.am originally from. I experienced, or came to know, about it in Sierra
:02:23. > :02:29.Leone when I was a girl. It is celebrated there. It brings a lot of
:02:30. > :02:35.joy to families, women take over the town, as the little girl I
:02:36. > :02:42.associated with with empowerment. -- it with. They do all kinds of crazy
:02:43. > :02:53.things, the man have to stay away. -- they call it Bundu. I was always
:02:54. > :02:56.excited about it. When we moved to the US, of course, it isn't talk
:02:57. > :03:03.about. Maybe older women would talk about it. But always in terms of
:03:04. > :03:08.empowerment. When I was already in college in Washington, DC, 21 years
:03:09. > :03:12.old, my last year in college, my mother and grandmother and aunt
:03:13. > :03:19.approached me and said they would like to take us for a Bundu. At the
:03:20. > :03:24.time we did not associated with any sort of cutting, we didn't know
:03:25. > :03:29.about FGM, we just thought it was an amazing practice about women and
:03:30. > :03:37.controlled by women. I was happy and delighted. I had been waiting for it
:03:38. > :03:42.all my life. I had an older aunt, a few years older than me, she had the
:03:43. > :03:49.option and learnt a few things about it and opted out. A younger sister,
:03:50. > :03:55.is old, and a cousin as well, we all travelled together. You were in your
:03:56. > :04:02.early 20s? She was eight years old. And you were both cut? I was already
:04:03. > :04:08.in college. I had some sense, but not the extent of what was actually
:04:09. > :04:12.going to happen. It is more than just cutting. There is more involved
:04:13. > :04:18.than just that. But certainly, circumcision or cutting is a key
:04:19. > :04:26.aspect of that I had not anticipated. Zoella the initial
:04:27. > :04:29.stage I certainly experience something extremely painful and
:04:30. > :04:36.horrific I had not prepared for. -- So, in the. There was culture shock.
:04:37. > :04:41.I did experience that kind of... Well, discomfort is an
:04:42. > :04:45.understatement. Yeah, an understatement. You said before that
:04:46. > :04:57.you do not accept the phrase the margin is in -- female genital
:04:58. > :05:01.mutilation. But it seems to fit the definition according to the
:05:02. > :05:05.dictionary. If we are getting details about what happens during
:05:06. > :05:14.the cutting operation it would seem to me to fit that description of
:05:15. > :05:21.mutilation. I disagree. It does take place. I wasn't deprived of
:05:22. > :05:29.anything. I went through a type 2 excision of the exposed clitoral
:05:30. > :05:34.glans. In terms of the sexual function, I was already sexually
:05:35. > :05:39.active prior to the initiation. I came back, resumed relations with my
:05:40. > :05:44.boyfriend at the time. There was absolutely no difference. If I
:05:45. > :05:52.may... In my sexual experience. 84 that. I will. There. -- Thank you
:05:53. > :05:59.for that. I want to hear your experience. We have heard of women
:06:00. > :06:08.oriented expression. What is your experience of. I do respect a
:06:09. > :06:14.survivor to refine her experience however she likes. -- experience.
:06:15. > :06:19.You acknowledged the pain, but you cannot replace the celebration
:06:20. > :06:25.context you have within your community and culture. For me,
:06:26. > :06:30.ultimately, I had FGM at seven. Where were you? Djibouti in East
:06:31. > :06:38.Africa. I was on holidays at the time. It was something that was...
:06:39. > :06:41.It came out of the blue. Nothing was spoken about in my family or
:06:42. > :06:46.community. I had no knowledge of it. I thought it was one of the
:06:47. > :06:52.stupidest things to ever happen, as a seven-year-old. Sorry to
:06:53. > :06:54.interrupt. Do you remember specifically the pain and fear and
:06:55. > :07:00.trauma? The confusion was the key thing. The pain was not as painful
:07:01. > :07:06.as after the act was carried out. That was after. The next few days.
:07:07. > :07:11.What scarred me and the interest in terms of the campaign and the work I
:07:12. > :07:16.started to do... I came back to the UK where my teacher, in her
:07:17. > :07:24.goodwill, tried to explain this to me, saying this is what happens, the
:07:25. > :07:29.dismissal, that I was like any other girl. -- good will. I hear what you
:07:30. > :07:35.are saying, but I cannot agree it can be celebrated or be empowering.
:07:36. > :07:39.The experiences are so different. I want to pick them a little bit. You
:07:40. > :07:44.had the operation, the cutting procedure, in your early 20s.
:07:45. > :07:52.Consent for you if something you can give, as an adult. Exactly. But as
:07:53. > :08:03.for Nimco, US Open, you did not even know what it meant. -- you were
:08:04. > :08:10.seven. Exactly. My auntie had done the research and new what was going
:08:11. > :08:16.to happen so she had opted out. -- knew. Informed consent cannot be
:08:17. > :08:25.applied. Even for an adult. I completely see it as stupid. They
:08:26. > :08:29.can never be consent to an act of violence like this. -- There. I
:08:30. > :08:33.think from is a very painful thing to deal with, especially when you
:08:34. > :08:41.are trying to beat a cultural identity. For someone to tell you
:08:42. > :08:49.that you need to do is to be African, it is problematic. -- pick.
:08:50. > :08:57.-- icon. If I tried to explain to my foyer roll to Nice in 20 years time
:08:58. > :09:06.that she has to cut herself, that is a warrant. -- neice that in. --
:09:07. > :09:10.abhorrent. You now live in the UK? I still have family on the continent.
:09:11. > :09:19.One of the most powerful conversations I had about Jason
:09:20. > :09:24.identity was with a former from Burkina Faso. -- minister. --
:09:25. > :09:32.chosen. We cannot have this conversation. I agree with certain
:09:33. > :09:37.things you are saying so beyond the issue of informed consent,
:09:38. > :09:50.certainly, at the time I was going I had some inclination. -- saying. My
:09:51. > :09:55.auntie believed this narrative about mutilation that I had not
:09:56. > :10:01.encountered. In a sense, yes, I did not give informed consent. But if my
:10:02. > :10:04.mother and grandmother were to come to me today with all of my knowledge
:10:05. > :10:09.and extensive knowledge and extensive research, I would do it
:10:10. > :10:18.again as an adult. That is not how consent works. It is at the point of
:10:19. > :10:21.doing it. If it could heal you could cut again with the consent and
:10:22. > :10:27.knowledge that you have. But the fact it has occurred, the old and is
:10:28. > :10:37.gone... It isn't. That is another misconception is obligated to send
:10:38. > :10:44.is gone. -- the organ is gone. -- misconception. Subjective experience
:10:45. > :10:51.matters. For instance, yes, I did experience an. But I cannot dismiss
:10:52. > :10:57.the fact that I took a mirror and was expecting to see disfigurement
:10:58. > :11:03.when I first had it. -- pain. I was surprised and pleased at the
:11:04. > :11:10.athletic results. -- aesthetic. Is has improved my life sexually. It
:11:11. > :11:15.hasn't hampered my sexual relations with my partner at the time. -- It
:11:16. > :11:21.has. How is that mutilation? That is your experience. This is the same
:11:22. > :11:30.conversation but we have changed the word mutilation to cutting. It is an
:11:31. > :11:35.act of violence... , interrupted. -- can I interrupted. I want to look at
:11:36. > :11:41.it in a way that I can reflect on the campaign you are running right
:11:42. > :11:47.now, Daughters of Eve, it is primarily driven by activists in
:11:48. > :11:51.Western countries that are extremely keen to send a message to those
:11:52. > :11:57.countries where FGM is most common, in Africa... I disagree. Ultimately
:11:58. > :12:06.the campaign and the movement and the courage that I use comes from
:12:07. > :12:09.the African country itself. We are doing them a disadvantage in saying
:12:10. > :12:17.that it is not women leading this campaign. The defacing of Eve...
:12:18. > :12:22.That is where the term comes from. She wrote about her FGM and the
:12:23. > :12:30.seven-year-old, how horrible that was. She fought against it. There
:12:31. > :12:33.are thousands of women across Africa that are leading the conversation.
:12:34. > :12:41.Let me quote a Nigerian doctor who said this, speaking as a major in,
:12:42. > :12:49.criminalising our customers is dangerous and otherwise. --
:12:50. > :12:55.Nigerian. This is a female-led conversation, and the
:12:56. > :13:01.criminality... It is a female. There is evidence that is very unclear.
:13:02. > :13:05.Women who have been circumcised, for the most part, support and celebrate
:13:06. > :13:14.this practice. We have to accept that. In terms of Western
:13:15. > :13:19.interpretations or outsiders who see it as horrific... Women, for the
:13:20. > :13:24.most part, who have experienced it, see it as something positive. Our
:13:25. > :13:27.culture interprets it very differently. It is not about
:13:28. > :13:36.violence against women or gender-based violence. In Sierra
:13:37. > :13:44.Leone mail on the Mao circumcision is seen as parallel. -- male and
:13:45. > :13:47.female. But in the long run there are no health complications for the
:13:48. > :13:54.male who is circumcised, but women, you have to accept this, research
:13:55. > :13:59.evidence shows there are long-term problems, infections, you're an area
:14:00. > :14:06.problems, childbirth problems, for the mother and newborn, all
:14:07. > :14:16.connected to the procedure. -- urinary. The UN shows that.
:14:17. > :14:25.Actually, most of that information come from activists. I have worked
:14:26. > :14:31.with colleagues who are physicians who are scholars, health scholars,
:14:32. > :14:34.anthropologists, and we published a paper in 2012. The media doesn't
:14:35. > :14:42.cover this, it only covers the work of the activists and the WHO, they
:14:43. > :14:53.published a public policy advisory in bioethics journal in the US and
:14:54. > :14:56.looked at all of the literature that covers various forms of female
:14:57. > :15:02.circumcision. It looked at the ones that were considered good quality
:15:03. > :15:05.research, in that they had control groups, so women who are not
:15:06. > :15:11.circumcised, and for the most part we found that there are hardly any
:15:12. > :15:18.differences in terms of obstetric outcomes. I don't... I think this is
:15:19. > :15:26.the same kind of rubbish from certain organisations who sit down
:15:27. > :15:32.with male cutters, and that ends the conversation. There are up people in
:15:33. > :15:37.places like Senator where this has been going on for years and there
:15:38. > :15:41.has only been a 20% drop. My key thing is that the numbers of deaths
:15:42. > :15:47.is something we cannot make up. In Egypt, where 91% of women are cut,
:15:48. > :15:55.and 72% of them are radicalised, people are dying on a day-to-day
:15:56. > :15:59.basis. What are the numbers? One key factor is that there was a
:16:00. > :16:12.13-year-old girl who died in 2012. The doctor was not prosecuted.
:16:13. > :16:17.Surely... Let me get back to you... You have consistently talked about
:16:18. > :16:22.forms of cutting court FGM that are not the most extreme forms. But we
:16:23. > :16:27.know according to the UN, I think they call it the type three... Which
:16:28. > :16:32.mainly occurs in the Horn of Africa. Right, but it involves
:16:33. > :16:37.hundreds of thousands of women, and for our audiences who don't know the
:16:38. > :16:42.details, it is an extreme form of FGM, which involves not just
:16:43. > :16:45.excision but also then sewing up the area around the vagina. It is a
:16:46. > :16:51.fundamental reshaping, making sexual relations impossible. When I'm
:16:52. > :16:56.talking about healthcare issues, that form of FGM, which precludes
:16:57. > :17:00.sexual activity until it is undone, and then makes childbirth
:17:01. > :17:05.extraordinarily difficult, are you saying that is acceptable? I am
:17:06. > :17:12.saying that there are increased risks or convocations with type
:17:13. > :17:17.three, which probably occurs in about 10% of cases in sub Saharan
:17:18. > :17:22.Africa. The vast majority... So that is hundreds of thousands of women.
:17:23. > :17:27.Do you regard that as unacceptable? Type three? I think a woman can
:17:28. > :17:36.consent to type three. If a woman wanted it... If you have Western
:17:37. > :17:41.women who are undergoing... We have had this discussion already. I
:17:42. > :17:44.disagree with the fact that an adult woman cannot choose to have an
:17:45. > :17:48.operation. I'm not going to sit here and say that one form is worse than
:17:49. > :17:53.the other. What about female genital cosmetic surgery? Until the anti-
:17:54. > :18:05.FGM campaigners start including what Western women do. The first... I'm
:18:06. > :18:08.very open about... This takes away autonomy from African women, and yet
:18:09. > :18:17.assuming that Western women can make those decisions. If I may, does it
:18:18. > :18:22.make a difference when four example President Barack Obama goes to Kenya
:18:23. > :18:26.and he says, quite openly, that FGM in his words is a bad tradition, it
:18:27. > :18:33.continues to second-class status of women, and in his words, it has no
:18:34. > :18:39.place in the 21st century. When the most powerful leaders in the West go
:18:40. > :18:44.to Africa and say those things, does it make a difference in your view? I
:18:45. > :18:49.think in terms of solidarity with the African movement, I'm not... I
:18:50. > :18:52.do think that Obama was doing it from an African heritage
:18:53. > :18:57.perspective. I do agree with the fact that it makes them a
:18:58. > :19:00.second-class citizen. You make the point that male circumcision and
:19:01. > :19:09.female cutting could be similar, but where other women in leadership it
:19:10. > :19:11.comes to them being initiated? I think when FGM happens it is the
:19:12. > :19:16.first form of oppression that happens to women, so domestic
:19:17. > :19:20.violence and rape and all these things are legitimised because of
:19:21. > :19:26.FGM. When we look at the African continent, for me this is one of
:19:27. > :19:29.those things that is meant to break it down, then society picks out the
:19:30. > :19:33.bits that they need from you. In the end it is not your intelligence or
:19:34. > :19:39.power, you are sexual object. I object to that, and it was women of
:19:40. > :19:44.the African continent who went to the UN and ask for a ban. I don't
:19:45. > :19:52.think anyone can consent to any form of this. I want you to address the
:19:53. > :19:55.claim that many people make, African women as well as women from outside
:19:56. > :20:01.Africa, that there is a fundamental patriarchy at work in many of the
:20:02. > :20:09.communities and the People's who still use FGM as prevalent practice
:20:10. > :20:14.for young girls. I categorically disagreed. This is ignoring the
:20:15. > :20:18.culture. To come to that conclusion you have to ignore the culture
:20:19. > :20:22.itself. In a place at Sierra Leone, where you have male and female
:20:23. > :20:31.initiation, where you have women in positions of vertical power, --
:20:32. > :20:35.political power, where the structures are gendered, where the
:20:36. > :20:41.process of e-mail initiation is comp entry to the process of male
:20:42. > :20:47.initiation. In Sierra Leone is about creating sets, not about oppression.
:20:48. > :20:54.This is associated with femininity, and removing that masculine eyes as
:20:55. > :20:59.the male child. In female circumcision, it is the external
:21:00. > :21:10.lands that are associated with masculinity. Where you have... It is
:21:11. > :21:16.a dual sex society. I am wondering why so many societies are outlawing
:21:17. > :21:20.this? Because they are eight dependent, because we have many
:21:21. > :21:29.activist associations that ignore the empirical evidence, and a
:21:30. > :21:41.Thai... Scion it is the internal struggle... They Thai internal aid
:21:42. > :21:47.to policies... The hands of the governments are tied. They are paid
:21:48. > :21:51.dependent. So they pass these laws. What about the people who died in
:21:52. > :21:56.order to fight... They pass laws and they don't implement them. Vine can
:21:57. > :22:01.I dare say... If FGM were such an amazing thing that everyone agreed
:22:02. > :22:04.with it, as soon as I started to speak it was the first time I ever
:22:05. > :22:11.got their threats. I get death threats as well. Before we close, I
:22:12. > :22:19.want to ask a personal question. Do either of you have daughters? I have
:22:20. > :22:27.nieces and a son, who is circumcised. I didn't flinch, at
:22:28. > :22:30.three days old. As a comparison... I want to stick with females. Your
:22:31. > :22:38.nieces may have daughters themselves. Do you want them to see
:22:39. > :22:41.this perpetuated through the next generation and the next and the one
:22:42. > :22:46.after that? As far as you are concerned it should be a constant? I
:22:47. > :22:52.would love to see girls being given the opportunity that I had at an age
:22:53. > :22:58.where they can consent to uphold the culture and custom, a tradition that
:22:59. > :23:04.we value as women. At what age? The age of consent can vary from country
:23:05. > :23:07.to country. It can be 18. Right now, most girls in most countries where
:23:08. > :23:14.it is prevalent are cut under the age of five. I think girls should be
:23:15. > :23:17.allowed, my personal view is that girls should be allowed to wait,
:23:18. > :23:25.especially with more invasive forms of the surgery, types to and three,
:23:26. > :23:29.type 1 is equivalent to male circumcision. It is not equivalent
:23:30. > :23:33.to male circumcision. I do believe that girls should be able to consent
:23:34. > :23:38.to the practice. That would be a fundamental change from the status
:23:39. > :23:41.quo today. I think women are like me who would opt for the practice
:23:42. > :23:47.because they value it in the same way that I do. You have nieces as
:23:48. > :23:53.well, and your conviction is that you are winning this argument? I
:23:54. > :24:00.know for a fact that they would be cut and in FGM fleet will hopefully
:24:01. > :24:04.be eliminated. There will not be the visual practice of it on the
:24:05. > :24:10.continent or in the world globally. I do believe that should include
:24:11. > :24:13.labia fusty. We have to wend their, thank you both for being on HARDtalk
:24:14. > :24:39.-- we have two and there. We saw quite a variety of weather
:24:40. > :24:44.across the UK to end the weekend. Some of us saw some sunshine,
:24:45. > :24:48.at least, for a while.