:00:00. > :00:07.Those are the headlines. Next, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:08. > :00:23.In 2016, Bosnia and Herzegovina will apply for membership
:00:24. > :00:34.Why would the EU, beset by troubles of its own, want to embrace a state
:00:35. > :00:35.still deeply divided and dysfunctional 20 years after the end
:00:36. > :00:40.of the Bosnian war? My guest today is Igor Crnadak,
:00:41. > :00:43.the foreign minister of Bosnia -- Is Bosnia imprisoned by its
:00:44. > :01:06.past? Igor Crnadak, welcome to
:01:07. > :01:22.HARDtalk. It is good to be here. 2016 promises
:01:23. > :01:25.to be a very big year for you and your country. You have made it clear
:01:26. > :01:30.that you will file an official application for EU membership. But
:01:31. > :01:37.given the state of politics in your country, isn't that the most extreme
:01:38. > :01:41.form of wishful thinking? I think that there is reason for optimism.
:01:42. > :01:47.As you know, we have this new approach by the EU to Bosnia and
:01:48. > :01:50.Herzegovina, which has enabled us to be focused on economic reforms, the
:01:51. > :01:57.fight against corruption, and on real-life things. This is a great
:01:58. > :02:02.chance for us right now. Of course, as you have said, there remain
:02:03. > :02:06.certain problems but even with this, the new government and the new
:02:07. > :02:15.ministers have already produced some results. We have consensus on the
:02:16. > :02:18.integration process and what needs to be done next full of our reform
:02:19. > :02:25.agenda is accepted by even opposition parties. I admire your
:02:26. > :02:30.positivity and optimism but the facts on the ground speak somewhat
:02:31. > :02:35.otherwise. Let us face it. Your country is not even truly
:02:36. > :02:38.sovereign, by which I mean that under the Dayton agreement, the
:02:39. > :02:42.agreement that created the Bosnia Herzegovina that we know today, you
:02:43. > :02:47.are still in a sense governed by an outside representative. And the
:02:48. > :02:51.former high Representative, Lord Ashdown, he said that what began as
:02:52. > :02:56.a dynamic of integration has reversed into a dynamic of
:02:57. > :03:02.disintegration. Just to finish that previous sentence, I think that we
:03:03. > :03:06.have realistic optimism right now and that we have produced some
:03:07. > :03:14.results. Of course, as you have said, there are some examples of the
:03:15. > :03:18.fact that Bosnia Herzegovina has some very big specifics like the
:03:19. > :03:22.OHR, for example, like you said. Nobody thinks that Bosnia
:03:23. > :03:29.Herzegovina can become a complete member of the EU with the office of
:03:30. > :03:35.the high representative, or, for example, with foreign judges sitting
:03:36. > :03:41.in our constitutional court. But you cannot afford to walk away from the
:03:42. > :03:47.HSR, because without that international support, your country
:03:48. > :03:51.would probably fall apart. -- OHR. I would not put it like that. I think
:03:52. > :03:57.that we are very close now to being able to move forward without foreign
:03:58. > :04:02.intervention, without a foreign presence in our institutions.
:04:03. > :04:07.Really? The one constituent element of the Federation, the Republika
:04:08. > :04:11.Srpska, has made it plain that it sees its future as an aid --
:04:12. > :04:15.independent entity and every single day right now, we seen them pushing
:04:16. > :04:20.further and further towards independence. I come from Republika
:04:21. > :04:25.Srpska and I have to ask you one thing. Did you know one single
:04:26. > :04:29.political party or one single politician who is fighting for the
:04:30. > :04:36.independence of Republika Srpska? The elected president of Republika
:04:37. > :04:40.Srpska has said that by 2018, he wants to give his people the
:04:41. > :04:46.opportunity to vote in a referendum on secession. He is saying a lot of
:04:47. > :04:51.things but you should look... He is the elected president of Republika
:04:52. > :05:00.Srpska. That is right, but you should look at his actions. For now,
:05:01. > :05:05.it is quite different. There is, of course, and it does need to be said
:05:06. > :05:12.that in the Republika Srpska, there are two blocs that are equally
:05:13. > :05:19.strong and one of them... With all due respect, you are from the bloc
:05:20. > :05:23.that is against him but the fact is that he is in charge and just two
:05:24. > :05:27.days ago there was a day of statehood in Republika Srpska, where
:05:28. > :05:34.the flags were out and he was proclaiming the autonomy of
:05:35. > :05:38.Republika Srpska against the wishes of your sovereign constitutional
:05:39. > :05:43.court, and he said, to help with that, we will have this national day
:05:44. > :05:50.anyway. I think that the Republika Srpska is not a threat to anybody.
:05:51. > :05:54.It was a clear violation of your constitution. Let me explain,
:05:55. > :06:00.please. I'm sitting on the Council of Ministers and together with my
:06:01. > :06:07.colleagues, also with the Republika Srpska, we have big disagreements
:06:08. > :06:12.with Mr Dodic on economic issues. The economy in Republika Srpska is
:06:13. > :06:16.in terrible shape. Also, we have disagreements on corruption issues.
:06:17. > :06:19.But when it comes to the position of Republika Srpska insight Bosnia
:06:20. > :06:24.Herzegovina, we are in the same position. Really? The same position
:06:25. > :06:28.as Mr Dodic, who says that he would like a referendum on the
:06:29. > :06:33.Constitutional Court and its lack of authority inside Republika Srpska?
:06:34. > :06:36.You support him on that? Let me explain. When it comes to the
:06:37. > :06:41.Constitutional Court ruling, I have to say that it is one of the most
:06:42. > :06:49.senseless decisions in political life that I have seen these last 15
:06:50. > :06:52.years. But with respect, Mr Dodic is wanting to deny the authority of the
:06:53. > :06:56.Bosnia Herzegovina court system. Do you also deny that authority? This
:06:57. > :07:02.is the ruling that brought no benefit to anybody. But please
:07:03. > :07:05.answer my question. Do you deny the authority of the Bosnia Herzegovina
:07:06. > :07:12.court system? First of all, this ruling was made by three votes by
:07:13. > :07:19.international judges and two votes by Bosnian judges. I'm asking you a
:07:20. > :07:27.bigger and more important question. Do here, like Mr Dodic, deny the
:07:28. > :07:32.authority of the Bosnia Herzegovina courts to declare their edicts, to
:07:33. > :07:39.make the law inside Republika Srpska? 89 rulings on the
:07:40. > :07:45.Constitutional Court so far have not been incremented. This is number
:07:46. > :07:49.90. This is not that simple. -- have not been implemented. I'm telling
:07:50. > :07:52.you... If you were a sovereign nation with a court and a judicial
:07:53. > :07:58.system that was truly national, it would be simple. And coming back to
:07:59. > :08:02.our opening conversation about whether Bosnia Herzegovina is ready
:08:03. > :08:05.to file an application to be an EU member, everything you are now
:08:06. > :08:07.telling me suggests that you are nowhere near ready because you
:08:08. > :08:14.cannot even agree on the authority of the national courts. Again, it is
:08:15. > :08:19.very clear what the authority of the court is in Bosnia had been a. They
:08:20. > :08:23.are on different levels of government. There are different
:08:24. > :08:31.levels on the Canton levels, scalable. Is not a problem in Bosnia
:08:32. > :08:34.Herzegovina. We have an ongoing dialogue with the judicial system
:08:35. > :08:40.that will hopefully produce some results and improvement of this. But
:08:41. > :08:43.I do not think this is such a problem that should bring along such
:08:44. > :08:49.a comment like you have just said, that it is a sign that we're not
:08:50. > :08:52.ready for Europe. I don't think it is true but I do think that we need
:08:53. > :08:56.international judges out of the Constitutional Court as soon as
:08:57. > :09:02.possible because Bosnia Herzegovina cannot become a member of the EU
:09:03. > :09:08.with foreign judges sitting on it Constitutional Court. Let me try one
:09:09. > :09:11.more time to get a specific answer from you. Mr Dodic would like a
:09:12. > :09:15.referendum on this question of whether Republika Srpska recognises
:09:16. > :09:24.the authority of the national Bosnia Herzegovina courts. Do you support
:09:25. > :09:27.that referendum? The political party that I come from, the vice president
:09:28. > :09:32.has deposed -- opposed the referendum. We believe there are big
:09:33. > :09:35.problems in our judicial system, especially when it comes to the
:09:36. > :09:41.fight against corruption and when it comes to prosecuting war crimes, but
:09:42. > :09:45.we do not see this kind of referendum as the answer to this and
:09:46. > :09:51.it cannot bring any good, not even to Republika Srpska, let alone the
:09:52. > :09:55.entirety of Bosnia Herzegovina. I think that the real motives of
:09:56. > :10:03.initiating this referendum are of domestic politics and they want this
:10:04. > :10:08.for domestic political fights. One of those domestic issues is
:10:09. > :10:13.corruption... And let me say that I do not even think there will be this
:10:14. > :10:19.kind of referendum. It is Mr Dodic's decision, I guess. He is in
:10:20. > :10:22.charge in Republika Srpska. Yes, he has the majority for this. If he
:10:23. > :10:26.believes it should be done, he will go on with this, but again, my
:10:27. > :10:31.feeling is that we will not see this happen. Mr Dodic says, just one
:10:32. > :10:35.final point on the judiciary, he says that the judiciary in Sarajevo
:10:36. > :10:41.is not fair, they are biased against us Bosnian Serbs in Republika
:10:42. > :10:48.Srpska. And as an example, he cites the fact that the government is
:10:49. > :10:51.examining allegations of corruption against him, particularly some of
:10:52. > :10:56.his assets, including property that he holds in Belgrade. As the Foreign
:10:57. > :11:00.Minister of your country, do you believe that the investigations into
:11:01. > :11:08.Mr Dodic are legitimate or are they a sign of bias? All of the
:11:09. > :11:13.investigations against anybody must be free of any kind of pressure. I'm
:11:14. > :11:16.asking you whether you regard this particular investigation as
:11:17. > :11:23.independent and free of pressure or whether you see it as biased? I have
:11:24. > :11:30.not seen any signal or any indicator in this particular investigation of
:11:31. > :11:33.bias. As minister of Foreign Affairs Committee, the Council of Ministers,
:11:34. > :11:36.let me say that we are determined to demonstrate clear political will and
:11:37. > :11:44.to create the political atmosphere for the final beginning of the fight
:11:45. > :11:47.against corruption. Because in this country, we have not seen this
:11:48. > :11:52.political will demonstrated before and, of course, ministers and the
:11:53. > :11:59.governments cannot prosecute, cannot arrest people, but we can create
:12:00. > :12:03.this kind of atmosphere. In the last eight to nine months, we have made
:12:04. > :12:07.some personnel changes, some organisational changes, and I do
:12:08. > :12:12.expect to see some good results from the fight against corruption in the
:12:13. > :12:21.near future in Bosnia. Do you think it is right that a Roma or a Jew
:12:22. > :12:23.could not be a senior official in the Bosnian government because of
:12:24. > :12:31.your constitution? Do you think that is right? Let me answer on regard
:12:32. > :12:35.that question... For people who do not understand, it was a legal case
:12:36. > :12:38.six years ago that said in terms of European human rights law, it was
:12:39. > :12:44.unacceptable that your country says that you must be a Bosnian Muslim or
:12:45. > :12:53.Croat or a server to hold one of the highest offices of state. -- Serb.
:12:54. > :12:56.The court said that was totally unacceptable but that is still the
:12:57. > :13:00.case. Absolutely. Let me add one last thing to that question. We have
:13:01. > :13:04.spoken a lot about Mr Dodik and Republika Srpska and we have spoken
:13:05. > :13:08.a lot about corruption. I would not likely to be the impression that
:13:09. > :13:11.this is only a problem related to Republika Srpska. The problem of
:13:12. > :13:14.corruption is one of the biggest problems we are facing in Bosnia
:13:15. > :13:19.Herzegovina, and it is equally present in black youth that it is!
:13:20. > :13:29.And we will face its certainly in the future. -- you get that it is.
:13:30. > :13:33.As for people not being able to be a candidate for the position in the
:13:34. > :13:41.presidency unless they are Croat, Serbian or Bosnia, that is the most
:13:42. > :13:48.clear example of discrimination. And we are absolutely, absolutely aware
:13:49. > :13:52.of the fact that... LAUGHTER. With all due respect, you have been aware
:13:53. > :13:56.of it for six years and you have done absolutely nothing about it.
:13:57. > :14:01.Let me explain. In the middle of the 20th century in the heart of Europe,
:14:02. > :14:04.it can stay like that. Unfortunately, we have not been able
:14:05. > :14:14.to find the solution of how to deal with this issue. Politicians and
:14:15. > :14:21.parties coming from Republika Srpska have proposed a very, very simple
:14:22. > :14:27.answer to this. It would not state that one Serbian would be elected
:14:28. > :14:31.from Republika Srpska and one Croat and Bosnian from the Federation, but
:14:32. > :14:40.rather it would state that it would be one of the presidency from -- one
:14:41. > :14:44.with residency in Republika Srpska and one person with residency in the
:14:45. > :14:57.Federation. Let me finish, there was a will on
:14:58. > :15:02.other sites to change some other things also. I have a lot more
:15:03. > :15:04.questions for you, so let's try to get something through quickly. He
:15:05. > :15:11.said corruption was a problem in other countries, not just in
:15:12. > :15:16.Republic Srpska. Suggestions are that corruption is rife throughout
:15:17. > :15:21.your country. Recently, it was said, how is it that people working
:15:22. > :15:26.on public salaries are able to purchase lavish cars and large
:15:27. > :15:32.homes, unfortunately asset disclosure rules have been weakened
:15:33. > :15:35.recently in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Will you be very transparent about
:15:36. > :15:44.your assets, because the allegation is that public offices just are not
:15:45. > :15:49.very public. Absolutely, I stay open for anybody wanting to ask anything
:15:50. > :15:53.about anything that I have. Exactly what you just stated, it is
:15:54. > :16:00.something that this new council minister wants to change. We want to
:16:01. > :16:06.ask everybody, with huge assets, with a huge amount of money in their
:16:07. > :16:11.accounts, and with just civil servant salaries behind them, how
:16:12. > :16:17.they got that. Do you have what Mr Duffy would call expensive houses
:16:18. > :16:23.and lavish cars? No, not myself. There are so many layers of
:16:24. > :16:30.political bureaucracy in your country, the federal level, the
:16:31. > :16:34.state-level... Parable to other regions, bureaucrats are better paid
:16:35. > :16:46.than in any other country in Europe -- can parable. I haven't seen this
:16:47. > :16:48.comparison, but I can agree. Even though I have been a council
:16:49. > :16:54.minister for eight months, and before that I had a long history of
:16:55. > :16:58.being a conviction politician, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask
:16:59. > :17:04.all these questions, but we do what we want to do... What we want to do
:17:05. > :17:07.is have a clear situation on every politician, and not only
:17:08. > :17:11.politicians, every public figure in the country, it is that is what
:17:12. > :17:15.people want. I will tell you one thing, just to show you how big the
:17:16. > :17:19.problem is, in one of the recent research is, it showed that three
:17:20. > :17:24.quarters of the people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which has some of the
:17:25. > :17:28.worst corruption in Europe, three quarters of people said that they
:17:29. > :17:35.wouldn't report corruption even if they knew about it. This is the very
:17:36. > :17:37.horrible thing about all of us doing important and accountable jobs in
:17:38. > :17:42.the country, because people do not have trust in institutions. They are
:17:43. > :17:50.not safe to be part of this fight against corruption, and I understand
:17:51. > :17:54.that you take a big priority for this issue, and you quote some of
:17:55. > :17:58.the people talking about it. It is absolutely normal, and does give us
:17:59. > :18:03.some more time. I am sure that these council ministers will show some
:18:04. > :18:10.progress on fighting corruption is. Is it true that some allies with
:18:11. > :18:21.Russia in the Serb government are actively trying to block any move of
:18:22. > :18:30.Bosnia and Herzegovina towards the EU? Our key strategic foreign policy
:18:31. > :18:32.goal is to get towards the EU. I know that, and the Russian Foreign
:18:33. > :18:36.Minister has made it clear that he doesn't believe that Bosnia and
:18:37. > :18:46.Herzegovina, along with countries like Macedonia and others,... Phone
:18:47. > :18:52.talking now about European integration. Part of that is Nato
:18:53. > :18:58.and parties the European Union. The bottom line is, the Russians regard
:18:59. > :19:05.your orientations with the EU and Nato has provocative. They are very
:19:06. > :19:13.reluctant to use Repubblica Srpska as an instrument of delay of selling
:19:14. > :19:19.chaos inside your country. First, we have to divide the different issues.
:19:20. > :19:23.One of them is EU and Nato. When it comes to EU intervention in our
:19:24. > :19:27.country, I had two meetings in the last eight months, and it is clear
:19:28. > :19:40.that Russia will not lock or slow down in any way our European
:19:41. > :19:43.integration process. When you saw Lavrov, did you tell him that it was
:19:44. > :19:49.none of his business whether you join Nato will not? We have a two
:19:50. > :19:57.track policy to Nato, and for me it is very important to make it clear.
:19:58. > :20:01.We have a huge consensus inside the country on continuing strong
:20:02. > :20:09.cooperation with Nato. We have more than 100 different activities with
:20:10. > :20:13.Nato yearly. We have... Our presence is very strong in Nato operations
:20:14. > :20:20.around the world, in Afghanistan, where we have been present from day
:20:21. > :20:23.one. We have the consensus on intensifying this kind of
:20:24. > :20:27.cooperation. On the other hand, we do not have the consensus on the
:20:28. > :20:36.final decision on the membership in Nato. We do want to continue... You
:20:37. > :20:41.are to tell me that Nato and the EU are different. A report came out
:20:42. > :20:45.last summer from a respected think tank saying that Moscow clearly
:20:46. > :20:50.wants to delay or derail plans for EU and Nato expansion. Its policy
:20:51. > :20:56.towards Bosnia and Herzegovina needs to be seen in that context. I have
:20:57. > :20:59.to tell you what I know, and I know that there is nothing like that when
:21:00. > :21:05.it comes to our European integration process. When it comes to Nato, I
:21:06. > :21:09.explained the position. You have made that point. Let me say one also
:21:10. > :21:15.important thing that I think is not right, and that is that there is
:21:16. > :21:19.some kind of negative attitude from Belgrade. I think the message is
:21:20. > :21:26.that we are getting from Belgrade in the last years are quite positive.
:21:27. > :21:37.Let me remind you that it was said very openly recently that Serbia is
:21:38. > :21:42.accepting and regarding Bosnia and Herzegovina has a friend, and wants
:21:43. > :21:46.to continue to develop relations. You probably feel warmer towards
:21:47. > :21:51.Belgrade than the Bosnia acts in the government that you represent. That
:21:52. > :22:00.is normal, because we have so-called special relations between the party
:22:01. > :22:07.and Repubblica Srpska, and it stays. I'm going to. Because we are almost
:22:08. > :22:11.out of time. There are alarming reports that we have heard in recent
:22:12. > :22:16.days that your government is doing very little to move against
:22:17. > :22:19.significant numbers of Islamic State activists and supporters who are
:22:20. > :22:24.inside your country. Allegations also that there is an Islamic State
:22:25. > :22:28.de facto training facility on your territory. Why aren't you doing more
:22:29. > :22:34.to eliminate this threat? I think there should be seen as not a burden
:22:35. > :22:41.for Bosnia and Herzegovina. But it is on your territory. I'm sure you
:22:42. > :22:45.have read this. 12 Islamic State fighters trained in this village
:22:46. > :22:50.have left for Syria in the last six months. Bosnia and Herzegovina was
:22:51. > :22:59.the first country in the region that endorsed foreign fighters. The
:23:00. > :23:02.number of foreign fighters has reduced since we introduced this
:23:03. > :23:08.law. How can you allow a camp that is clearly being used by jihadis on
:23:09. > :23:14.your territory? You mentioned just one village, all the villages, all
:23:15. > :23:17.the parts of territory where there is gathering of Islamic fanatics, it
:23:18. > :23:24.is strongly under the eye of our agencies. Our minister of security
:23:25. > :23:29.is working very closely with similar agencies, in Europe and the US as
:23:30. > :23:33.well, and I do not think, and I haven't heard, anybody saying that
:23:34. > :23:38.we are tolerating something like that. We are very strong on this and
:23:39. > :23:43.Bosnia and Herzegovina is part of the coalition against terrorism. We
:23:44. > :23:48.have gone from a country that was only a diplomatic supporter, to one
:23:49. > :23:51.that also made some very important donations of ammunition, and we are
:23:52. > :23:56.doing our best even inside the country to fight terrorism. Igor
:23:57. > :24:31.Crnadak, I'm afraid we have to end there. Thank you very much.
:24:32. > :24:35.A more wintry feel to the weather across the United