:00:00. > :00:09.Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur.
:00:10. > :00:12.There's a faultline that lies beneath much of the current
:00:13. > :00:17.turmoil in the Middle East, and it runs between Riyadh and Tehran.
:00:18. > :00:20.Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shia Iran are locked
:00:21. > :00:26.It's a dangerous and costly struggle for regional
:00:27. > :00:34.supremacy that weaves from Lebanon to Yemen by way of Syria and Iraq.
:00:35. > :00:36.My guests today are Mohammad Marandi in Tehran,
:00:37. > :00:46.Both respected clinical analysts. -- political.
:00:47. > :00:49.Is there any way to take the heat out of the Saudi-Iranian
:00:50. > :01:31.Mohammad Marandi in Tehran and Jamal Khashoggi in Jeddah, welcome to
:01:32. > :01:34.HARDtalk. Let me start with a simple question for both of you. Relations
:01:35. > :01:38.between the two countries are currently toxic. Diplomatic
:01:39. > :01:43.relations have been severed. Mohammad Marandi first, is this
:01:44. > :01:49.something the Iranians government deliberately wanted, set out to
:01:50. > :01:54.achieve, or is this crisis in relations something that has
:01:55. > :01:59.happened by accident? I think definitely the Iranians did not want
:02:00. > :02:05.to break relations. The Iranians believe the Saudis have been showing
:02:06. > :02:12.erratic behaviour for quite a long time. A few months ago, hundreds of
:02:13. > :02:18.uranium pilgrims died during the Hajj pilgrimage. Because of sad in
:02:19. > :02:23.competence. The Saudis not only did not apologise but did not show
:02:24. > :02:27.remorse or express condolences. This angered Iranians a great deal. The
:02:28. > :02:36.Iranians did not break off relations, the Saudis on the other
:02:37. > :02:42.hand after the beheading of Nimr al-Nimr, who never carried arms,
:02:43. > :02:50.people in Iran became angry, and some people went to win NBC -- went
:02:51. > :02:57.to an embassy. They did the wrong thing, and a senior official was
:02:58. > :03:01.dismissed. They threw stones and a firebomb, and the Saudis cut off
:03:02. > :03:06.relations. When we compare the two incidents, it is obvious that the
:03:07. > :03:10.Iranians are the ones who have shown patience, as they showed a few
:03:11. > :03:17.months ago, and the Saudis, the belief here, is that the Saudis want
:03:18. > :03:21.confrontation. Jamal Khashoggi, you have heard the Iranians narrative
:03:22. > :03:32.presented by Mohammad Marandi, does that match what you perceive to be
:03:33. > :03:35.reality? It was the straw that broke the back of a sour political
:03:36. > :03:42.relationship that lasted many years. It only started because of Iranians
:03:43. > :03:54.expansion. This fighting and killing Syrians, the political process in
:03:55. > :04:01.Yemen, those and others led to a falling apart of peace. It would be
:04:02. > :04:07.better if the Iranians got their hatred out of Syria, sat with us,
:04:08. > :04:12.and talked peace. If they cannot do that, just get out of the Middle
:04:13. > :04:16.East, go back to Iran, and let us fix the middle east along with
:04:17. > :04:21.Turkey, Pakistan, and the international community, because it
:04:22. > :04:26.has become so dangerous for all of us. All we need is for the Iranians
:04:27. > :04:32.to stop meddling in the middle east. If laugh life were that simple. You
:04:33. > :04:37.raised many points about different theatres of conflict in the region.
:04:38. > :04:40.We will have to take them one by one. Before we get to external
:04:41. > :04:46.issues, but stick with Saudi Arabia for a moment. Your government
:04:47. > :04:51.beheaded 47 people at the beginning of this year, including the senior
:04:52. > :04:58.Shia cleric and dissident Nimr al-Nimr. The decision to do that was
:04:59. > :05:02.obviously taken consciously knowing it would infuriate, enrage and
:05:03. > :05:06.provoke Tehran. I come back to this point about countries
:05:07. > :05:14.decision-making. Why did the Saudis see fit to do that at this
:05:15. > :05:18.particular time? If I want to give a reason why we executed Nimr al-Nimr,
:05:19. > :05:26.I have to give a reason why we executed the other 46 people
:05:27. > :05:31.implicated of terrorism. Some of them are also linked to Al Qaeda,
:05:32. > :05:41.important leaders to Al Qaeda. They were all tried and were caught. It
:05:42. > :05:48.is hypocritical to talk about execution of violent preachers while
:05:49. > :06:03.Iran is doing the same thing. They have executed 200 people. They have
:06:04. > :06:08.a law to execute someone who endangered the state. If they can do
:06:09. > :06:16.it, why can't we do it? This is the law. It is a point I will put to
:06:17. > :06:21.Mohammad Marandi. It is a bit rich, is it not, of the Iranians, Angelo
:06:22. > :06:27.Foreign Minister in the New York Times are specially, to say the
:06:28. > :06:36.Saudi actions, the executions, were an act of barbarism, then say Saudi
:06:37. > :06:40.Arabia has a choice, it can continue promoting sectarian hatred, or it
:06:41. > :06:44.can choose to play a constructive role in promoting regional
:06:45. > :06:50.stability, as if Iran does not execute people, as if Iran does not
:06:51. > :06:54.play sectarian politics in the region just as Saudi Arabia does.
:06:55. > :07:02.What hypocrisy from your government! Well, I think most
:07:03. > :07:07.objective observers would know there is no comparison between Iran and
:07:08. > :07:13.Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia first of all has a wishing that promotes an
:07:14. > :07:20.extreme ideology that should not be exhibited to Sunni is them --
:07:21. > :07:24.regime. Textbooks speak of discrimination and believe that
:07:25. > :07:28.those who do not believe the ideology of Muhammad are not real
:07:29. > :07:32.Muslims, and that in many incidences, we see the Saudis
:07:33. > :07:38.justified the death of people and minorities because of that. It is
:07:39. > :07:41.interesting that Islamic state, Al Qaeda and other extremist groups use
:07:42. > :07:55.the same textbooks used in Saudi Arabia. They use them to teach. That
:07:56. > :08:07.is why we see the UCD-- Yazidis destroyed. It was the Iranians who
:08:08. > :08:12.saved people from IS attacks. There is no comparison. Iran is opposed to
:08:13. > :08:18.sectarianism. It does not exist in our text books. We have Christian
:08:19. > :08:23.MPs. That is dangerous territory you are on giving the record of Iranian
:08:24. > :08:27.leaders of a recent vintage Austin in the Holocaust and coming out with
:08:28. > :08:34.various anti-Semitic words and phrases. If you suggest that Iran is
:08:35. > :08:37.an entirely nonsectarian regime with leaders who are committed to
:08:38. > :08:44.tolerance and freedom, I will question that clearly. Of course. I
:08:45. > :08:49.would be glad if you tried to question it, but none of the
:08:50. > :09:02.Iranians leaders, past or present, have ever made anti-Semitic remarks.
:09:03. > :09:12.Iran does not equate to those with Zionism -- Judaism. If someone in
:09:13. > :09:17.Iran, Angelo referring to the president, that is one individual
:09:18. > :09:22.and whether we accept the line which he uses, I personally do not like
:09:23. > :09:28.that sort of language, but he never made any anti-Semitic remarks -- and
:09:29. > :09:32.you are referring to the president. With respect to both of you, our
:09:33. > :09:36.viewers can judge for themselves whether they are any comparisons
:09:37. > :09:41.between your government when it comes to sectarianism. We'll have to
:09:42. > :09:47.park that for the moment. Let's talk about the various proxy conflicts
:09:48. > :09:51.that engage in the two governments and upbringing turmoil to the middle
:09:52. > :09:54.east region. Let's start with Syria. Before relations between your two
:09:55. > :09:58.countries were severed, there was some hope this month would say a
:09:59. > :10:03.breakthrough coming together of all the different parties to the Syria
:10:04. > :10:08.conflict, including the President Assad government, rebel
:10:09. > :10:11.representatives, and all of the external powers who have a role to
:10:12. > :10:15.play, including the Saudi and Iranians representatives. From both
:10:16. > :10:20.of your perspectives, given where you are today in the bilateral
:10:21. > :10:24.relationship, is it impossible to believe you to governments can work
:10:25. > :10:36.together to find a solution to Syria? Yes, we should do that, but
:10:37. > :10:42.we do not have militias that fight the Syrian people, the Iranians are
:10:43. > :10:48.doing that. We demand that the Iranians get out of Syria soaking
:10:49. > :10:57.bring peace back to Syria. We brought every single representative
:10:58. > :11:04.from the Syrian people to Riyadh from the Sunnis, the Shias, they
:11:05. > :11:09.were all represented and from the team that would negotiate peace in
:11:10. > :11:17.Geneva. We are supporting the Syrian people. While the Iranians are
:11:18. > :11:23.supporting a dictator. You are supporting Saudi Arabia's money
:11:24. > :11:33.going to one of the key rebel forces. No, no, no. Of course not!
:11:34. > :11:40.The United States, United Kingdom, the international would hold as
:11:41. > :11:56.liable if we send a single gunshot to the al-Nussra front. It is a
:11:57. > :12:02.terrorist organisation. Just as much as Islamic State and Hezbollah. I
:12:03. > :12:07.know many independent observers don't believe that. I wonder how
:12:08. > :12:14.that goes down in Tehran. Last night, I read an interview with the
:12:15. > :12:24.Indian ambassador to Damascus during 2011 and 2012, and he was saying the
:12:25. > :12:27.government in the Persian region were involved in this, and Al Qaeda
:12:28. > :12:32.were involved from the start. He said he spoke about the role Al
:12:33. > :12:36.Jazeera played, but more importantly, let's go to the head of
:12:37. > :12:43.the US defence and intelligence agency at that time, which is this
:12:44. > :12:45.most important organisation, intelligence and military
:12:46. > :12:50.organisation in the United States. He had 20,000 people working for
:12:51. > :12:55.him. A document from that agency basically said they knew from early
:12:56. > :13:00.on in Syria that the dominant groups that were fighting the Syrian
:13:01. > :13:03.government were the extremists. They knew their allies were supporting
:13:04. > :13:10.these governments activity and Saudi Arabia. -- Turkey. They knew there
:13:11. > :13:15.was a strong possibility and extreme estate, including Al Qaeda,
:13:16. > :13:18.remembering that Isil back then was Al Qaeda in Iraq, would be able to
:13:19. > :13:24.form a government of swords between Iraq and Syria. -- sorts. The
:13:25. > :13:28.general feeling did an article on Al Jazeera and admitted the United
:13:29. > :13:36.States took a wilful decision to support its allies in Syria in their
:13:37. > :13:38.pursuit of these policies. United States, the Saudis, the Turks, they
:13:39. > :13:47.were all supporting the extremists. Neither of your government is
:13:48. > :13:52.prepared to tell the truth which is that you are fuelled by paranoia of
:13:53. > :13:56.each other. Despite you telling me you don't believe in sectarian
:13:57. > :14:02.politics, both in Tehran and Riyadh there is a mentality that suggest
:14:03. > :14:09.that if we don't project our power and place, our bitter rivals - of
:14:10. > :14:15.the Saudis -Iranians - depending where you sit, will benefit. Because
:14:16. > :14:20.of that mentality, Yemen, Syria, you could argue Lebanon and Iraq and a
:14:21. > :14:24.host of other theatres of operation too have become this arena for a
:14:25. > :14:32.struggle between your government that red ash that is the truth. If
:14:33. > :14:38.we look at the Iran is supporting, it is supporting exclusively
:14:39. > :14:43.sectarian groups, whether in Syria, in the form of the government of
:14:44. > :14:47.Syria, in Lebanon, in the form of Hezbollah, in Yemen, in the form of
:14:48. > :14:53.the Houthi, who have hijacked the process, why is Saudi Arabia dealing
:14:54. > :14:57.with the people of Syria and Yemen, those who want a better future, who
:14:58. > :15:03.want to build a new Yemen, a sectarian Yemen? (CROSSTALK). Hang
:15:04. > :15:10.on. Let me talk Yemen for a moment. You are propping up President Hadi,
:15:11. > :15:13.who we know, if your bombers, agreement and money were not
:15:14. > :15:17.propping him up, we would be out of the country in no time at all. He
:15:18. > :15:23.isn't the product of a popular movement but he is your puppet. No,
:15:24. > :15:27.President Hadi is the head of a transitional government that was
:15:28. > :15:33.part of a political process which was hijacked by the Houthis and the
:15:34. > :15:38.former dictator of Yemen whom the Iranians are supporting today.
:15:39. > :15:44.Iranians have their favourite dictator in the Middle East, in
:15:45. > :15:51.Assad. In favour of the political process in Yemen we are not against
:15:52. > :15:56.the Houthi because they are Shia but because they hijack the political
:15:57. > :16:02.process. You say we are against the Houthis when the truth is, what you
:16:03. > :16:05.are doing is killing civilians by the thousands. The death toll in
:16:06. > :16:10.Yemen has gone beyond 5000. Many of them are civilians. Even today there
:16:11. > :16:15.is a report of more civilian casualties. In one particular
:16:16. > :16:20.terrible bombing last September more than 130 people were killed in a
:16:21. > :16:23.wedding party. Your bombs are doing the sort of damage that many people
:16:24. > :16:31.around the world would regard as criminal Tom warcrimes. No, no, --
:16:32. > :16:35.criminal, warcrimes. When they were investigated, it turned out they
:16:36. > :16:42.were targeted by the Houthi bombing. They are starving people in Taez. We
:16:43. > :16:49.are targeting military locations. Hezbollah, the party the Iranians
:16:50. > :16:53.support, they are starving people in Syria, in Madaya. You saw it on the
:16:54. > :16:56.BBC. Let's take a bigger view of this away from the individual
:16:57. > :16:59.theatres of conflict in the region, and lets think about both of your
:17:00. > :17:05.government and your relationship with the US of America. Now, this
:17:06. > :17:07.month is supposed to see the next level of implementation of the
:17:08. > :17:14.nuclear deal between the international powers and Iran. We've
:17:15. > :17:17.just seen in the last 24 hours a serious incident which has been
:17:18. > :17:22.diffused, where an American military personnel appear to have encroached
:17:23. > :17:27.on Iranian territorial waters and have since been released. The
:17:28. > :17:35.relationship between Washington and Tehran is fragile. Mahomet Morandi,
:17:36. > :17:45.do you believe this deal will stick Les --? Obviously they don't, nor do
:17:46. > :17:48.the Israelis, but we have to see. India's recent incident, we saw that
:17:49. > :17:54.the Americans were behaving irresponsibly. -- in this recent
:17:55. > :17:57.incident. They were in Iranian territory when they were immediately
:17:58. > :18:01.arrested by naval forces of the Revolutionary Guard. We saw American
:18:02. > :18:06.ships and an American aircraft carrier behaving aggressively in the
:18:07. > :18:10.region and the Iranians told them to abide by international law and
:18:11. > :18:13.behave more responsibly. Ultimately the Iranians carried out an
:18:14. > :18:18.investigation and saw that there was a problem with a navigation system
:18:19. > :18:23.and they release these people. So I think it is fragile but I think...
:18:24. > :18:29.(CROSSTALK). It is fragile because there are serious players inside
:18:30. > :18:31.Tehran - hardliners, so called - who are suspicious of President Rohani
:18:32. > :18:37.and his agenda of warming relationship with Washington? I
:18:38. > :18:40.don't agree. The political establishment, major players, have
:18:41. > :18:45.agreed to go by this agreement, which parliament has approved, as
:18:46. > :18:48.has the national Security Council with major discussion in Iran about
:18:49. > :18:55.the pros and cons. Ultimately it was approved. I want to take back their
:18:56. > :18:58.thought about America to Khashoggi, here is the work of a former US
:18:59. > :19:05.ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Robert Jordan, who says, the Saudis are
:19:06. > :19:09.feeling a real sense of encirclement right now - they feel abandoned by
:19:10. > :19:19.the Obama Administration. You know that the Iranians Wilbert unfrozen
:19:20. > :19:24.pretty much $100 billion of assets. -- will get. Use either warming of
:19:25. > :19:35.relations and you in Saudi Arabia are deeply worried about it, are you
:19:36. > :19:40.not? yes. It is good to be incorporated into a peaceful Middle
:19:41. > :19:45.East. A different Iran, like Turkey Pakistan, which wants to be part of
:19:46. > :19:51.a peaceful Middle East. But we think it is wrong of the Americans,
:19:52. > :19:55.particularly Mr Obama, to separate between the nuclear issue and
:19:56. > :20:01.Iranians' behaviour in the region. What is a danger to all of peace is
:20:02. > :20:04.the Iranians' behaviour in the region, and the American and
:20:05. > :20:09.international community should put a check on Iran when they do. Look
:20:10. > :20:14.what they are doing in Syria and Yemen, what they are doing hijacking
:20:15. > :20:24.the political system in Lebanon - this is all wrong internationally,
:20:25. > :20:26.for international peace. So, I wish the international community would
:20:27. > :20:32.have consideration and link the nuclear issue to Iranians' behaviour
:20:33. > :20:36.in the Middle East, because it is not great in the Middle East. For
:20:37. > :20:39.both of you it strikes me you are at a fundamentally difficult moment
:20:40. > :20:43.right now. Leave aside all of the conflict we just discussed. You are
:20:44. > :20:47.both under immense economic pressure. That is because of the
:20:48. > :20:54.plummeting price of oil. As we speak today it is around 30 US dollars per
:20:55. > :20:59.barrel. I think in Saudi Arabia you need $100 a barrel to make your
:21:00. > :21:05.budgets work. In Iran, similarly, you need a higher price of oil to
:21:06. > :21:09.dig yourself out of huge annual deficits. Saudi first, when we look
:21:10. > :21:14.at what you are doing today we see a government talking about austerity,
:21:15. > :21:20.we see a deputy crown prince who cites Mrs Thatcher when he talks
:21:21. > :21:25.about imposing cuts on the subsidies it your people are used to, there is
:21:26. > :21:30.also talks of a sales tax, and you have a deficit that is 15% of your
:21:31. > :21:37.national income - you are in crisis right now. No. I don't feel at a
:21:38. > :21:41.crisis. And the Saudi market doesn't feel that crisis. We are going
:21:42. > :21:47.through difficulties. We want to have a bit of Saudi Arabia -- a
:21:48. > :21:52.better Saudi Arabia, a prosperous Saudi Arabia - we all want that. At
:21:53. > :21:56.the same time we have another priority, it is to have a secure
:21:57. > :22:04.Middle East. We cannot allow Iranians to win in Syria and impose
:22:05. > :22:13.a sectarian dictatorship in Syria, not Yemen. I wish we can think of
:22:14. > :22:18.the broader picture. Let's give the final word to Tehran, to Mr Marandi.
:22:19. > :22:21.A return to economics, which in a sense tries everything - Saudi
:22:22. > :22:26.Arabia has pretty much the world's biggest and cheapest to exploit oil
:22:27. > :22:31.reserves, a much more effective oil industry than you do. Your economy
:22:32. > :22:35.already has severe unemployment, high inflation. In the end,
:22:36. > :22:42.economics dictates that Iran is not going to be able to project its
:22:43. > :22:46.power in the way it wants... I think the Iranians have been under
:22:47. > :22:49.sanctions for a number of years and they are not projecting power
:22:50. > :22:53.negatively - they are supporting indigenous groups in different
:22:54. > :22:59.countries. And that is why the Saudis are you losing in Yemen,
:23:00. > :23:02.because they are supporting an unpopular former president whose
:23:03. > :23:08.term in office had expired. The Saudis are supporting extremist E in
:23:09. > :23:16.Syria. I would like to lecture the US and European. The head of, the
:23:17. > :23:22.deputy head of Germany warned Saudi Arabia that they are spreading
:23:23. > :23:25.extremism in Europe -- extremists. And Wahabism. German intelligence
:23:26. > :23:28.said Saudi Arabia is becoming a threat to Europe. This is their
:23:29. > :23:33.allies they invest, not Iran. The real fault is with the US and
:23:34. > :23:39.European to allow Saudi Arabia to export extremism to Afghanistan. And
:23:40. > :23:42.then we had 9/11. We had the explosions in London. They allowed
:23:43. > :23:45.this to happen again over the last couple of years. We saw what
:23:46. > :23:50.happened in Syria and Iraq and now we have the refugees in Europe and
:23:51. > :23:55.the explosions in the US, in Istanbul, people who came from Saudi
:23:56. > :24:00.Arabia and the US. It is the fault of the US for allowing this
:24:01. > :24:03.extremism to be exported from Saudi Arabia - and now the chickens are
:24:04. > :24:07.coming home to roost. We have not had a meeting of minds but we have
:24:08. > :24:11.had an interesting debate. We will have to edit there. Mohammad Marandi
:24:12. > :24:14.and Jamal Khashoggi, thank you both for being on HARDtalk. -- we will
:24:15. > :24:42.have to end it there. We have already seen a fair bit
:24:43. > :24:46.of snow overnight,