:00:00. > :00:16.Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur.
:00:17. > :00:19.We tend to pigeonhole creative types: writer, musician, actor -
:00:20. > :00:24.I talk to a guest who defies simple description - punk is perhaps
:00:25. > :00:28.the only word that captures the spirit of Henry Rollins.
:00:29. > :00:32.He first found success in the punk band Black Flag back
:00:33. > :00:37.Since then he's variously made a name as a non-conforming writer,
:00:38. > :00:39.broadcaster, actor and intrepid traveller.
:00:40. > :01:17.How hard is it to swim against the cultural tide in the United States?
:01:18. > :01:25.Henry Rollins, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you sir. I want to talk about
:01:26. > :01:32.punk. Can you still have a punk sensibility in your 50s wishing
:01:33. > :01:36.yellow I think so. For me punk rock is different for everyone you asked
:01:37. > :01:40.to define it. It was always the idea of questioning authority and cutting
:01:41. > :01:49.through it getting to the what is it of the things. The older I get, the
:01:50. > :01:53.more importantly becomes Jimmy. The early days of punk rock I think of
:01:54. > :02:00.the sex pistols, and I think of anger and rebellion against what was
:02:01. > :02:06.and the status quo. Were you full of anger as a kid? Full of anger then
:02:07. > :02:13.and full of anger now. Angry about what? I live in America because a
:02:14. > :02:17.lot of people get angry if real and toured gets angry. Do you mean the
:02:18. > :02:22.gay marriage issue and the way they have responded to it? If we have to
:02:23. > :02:27.get all the way to the Supreme Court to argue about this. Fine, shut up,
:02:28. > :02:32.move on. The fact that we argue about these things and the fact that
:02:33. > :02:42.we have so much racism, homophobia and misogyny. This is four-year-old
:02:43. > :02:51.kids in the sandbox stuff. Why can we not lose the gills. What made you
:02:52. > :02:59.angry as a teenager? You were raised in Washington, what was burning you
:03:00. > :02:59.up then? I come from a completely comfortable and middle-class
:03:00. > :03:13.lifestyle. I never missed a meal on lifestyle. I never missed a meal
:03:14. > :03:18.in. -- missed a meal in my life. I was a horrible student. Life was
:03:19. > :03:23.frustrating. I could not talk to girls and could not throw the ball
:03:24. > :03:25.straight. I kept not being able to figure things out. By the time I was
:03:26. > :03:38.17 I was a ball of anger and then punk rock happened. And one of the
:03:39. > :03:43.extraordinary things about you was that you were floating around and it
:03:44. > :03:51.was the beginnings of a real scene in New York,
:03:52. > :03:52.day he went to see a band that you liked. Yeah. Black flag and
:03:53. > :03:56.something change your life in that crowd. I sort of news I looked at
:03:57. > :04:13.cream is. You know that song that you have about going to work, we
:04:14. > :04:22.will play it. And they asked me to sing it. I helped onstage and I kind
:04:23. > :04:24.of knew the song. And the singer asked them to jump on stage. I sang
:04:25. > :04:31.it and I will never forget that I looked around like a quarterback for
:04:32. > :04:41.the snap and the band was like that was cool. And the audience thought I
:04:42. > :04:47.was cool. And I gave the microphone back after 90 seconds. And a day
:04:48. > :04:50.later they called me and asked because they were looking for a
:04:51. > :04:56.singer and he wanted to be the rhythm guitar player. I was looking
:04:57. > :05:00.at my apron and ice cream scoop and said I have nothing to lose. I went
:05:01. > :05:05.back up there on the train and I auditioned and I got it. A week
:05:06. > :05:12.later I am in the van with them with my duffle bag and everything has
:05:13. > :05:15.been downhill ever since. One of the classic out of titles, of course you
:05:16. > :05:20.were in black flag for quite a while, and one of the outcomes you
:05:21. > :05:25.released was called hard volume. There is something about your
:05:26. > :05:35.music, and you call it in tents, it is beyond intense. It is
:05:36. > :05:42.earthshattering and allowed. That is what I've gone for because I'm not
:05:43. > :05:45.the brightest bulb. Hard to be max volume, we were in Belgium, and
:05:46. > :05:50.someone showed me a sheet that we were getting airplay and we were in
:05:51. > :05:56.the category of high-volume music. And I said that was a album title.
:05:57. > :06:02.Letters give people a sense of the musical style that you are
:06:03. > :06:17.inhabiting. This was from 20 years ago -- let us. I have been waiting
:06:18. > :06:35.indicator. The theories in their eyes. I am all blood. No regrets
:06:36. > :06:43.here no last words. On my way to the cage is the lyric. Just tell me, it
:06:44. > :06:46.is you are an older man. When you look at that version of yourself, do
:06:47. > :06:52.you still feel he is inside you? Absolutely. Except if I did that
:06:53. > :06:56.song now I would be on the floor trying to give out. That is a tame
:06:57. > :07:01.version of what you used to do because you used to be stripped off
:07:02. > :07:07.from the torso. And your body is a display cabinet of tattoos. The
:07:08. > :07:12.reason I only used to wear a pair of shorts was function because I'm
:07:13. > :07:18.going to sweat half a litre on the stage. Usually I would go back to a
:07:19. > :07:25.van and do the washing up a restaurant. It did not pay to go
:07:26. > :07:30.jeans because they were the only pants that I had. No shoes because
:07:31. > :07:39.they would get sweated out. I would get gym shorts and on that day I was
:07:40. > :07:43.very lavished. I wonder when you think about your music, would it
:07:44. > :07:48.have made a big difference if you had become something more than an
:07:49. > :07:53.alternative cult band, because you did get a top 40 hit with the Henry
:07:54. > :07:59.Rollins man. At one point you were actually voted desired on details
:08:00. > :08:04.magazine as man of the year. You were on the cusp of becoming more
:08:05. > :08:08.than an alternative guy and almost going mainstream. I wonder if you
:08:09. > :08:12.ever disappointed that she did not fulfil their journey into
:08:13. > :08:18.mainstream? No. Because you have to do your own thing. We wrote the
:08:19. > :08:24.songs that we wrote and freakishly, the one that we were even going to
:08:25. > :08:27.put on a record, became the single. The record Company called and said
:08:28. > :08:37.that as a single. We said that was a joke. We don't even have a chord
:08:38. > :08:49.structure for. Is this thing we do at it is. -- it is this thing that
:08:50. > :08:52.we do at concerts. All of a sudden I'm on the cover of some interesting
:08:53. > :08:56.magazine. I know that all of a sudden in six weeks it might be
:08:57. > :09:01.over. And that is all I ever thought about it. Did you want to be famous?
:09:02. > :09:10.Know I did not want it. Believe it or not. Any notoriety that I have it
:09:11. > :09:14.is only a hindrance. In that I am walking and talking to this guy, an
:09:15. > :09:18.outstanding in the middle of a airplay doing a photo who has been
:09:19. > :09:26.waiting for me outside with his phone. Can we do a photo? Yes. It is
:09:27. > :09:31.not too weird. Let us do that. Otherwise I just do my work. I've
:09:32. > :09:35.always been very utilitarian in all of this stuff. And that is what
:09:36. > :09:39.coming from punk rock gave to me. I don't feel like I anybody. Is so
:09:40. > :09:46.won't be the something I will say sure. I don't think I am anything.
:09:47. > :09:50.Maybe because you were scooping ice cream not too long ago and maybe
:09:51. > :09:54.there is an element of insecurity in you that unless you keep working and
:09:55. > :09:59.keep striving you could end up back there. I figure that that is
:10:00. > :10:04.eventual. I move forward because I've nothing to lose. I am nobody
:10:05. > :10:09.from nowhere. I'm from the minimum wage working world countries years
:10:10. > :10:14.ago. I don't ever have in my head that that is any more than one tour
:10:15. > :10:19.away from coming back. And so I like to work. It is not a money or fame
:10:20. > :10:24.thing. It is about activity and challenge. The other thing that is
:10:25. > :10:27.in my head now and maybe that has in to do with the death of David Bowie
:10:28. > :10:30.and all of the response that has come with that and what an
:10:31. > :10:35.extraordinary artist he was. As I was saying, there are a lot of
:10:36. > :10:39.artists in contemporary culture that are very hard to pigeonhole. David
:10:40. > :10:44.Bowie was one that was like that. And you are another. And he was very
:10:45. > :10:49.big in the 70s and 80s when you are making your way. Was he an
:10:50. > :10:54.inspiration to you with his multiple identities, his determination to
:10:55. > :11:08.forge his own path, break conventional wisdom is? He inspired
:11:09. > :11:12.me from hearing his single. As stupidly as a teenager I never
:11:13. > :11:20.bought the hour-long. 20 songs would come radio and one lyric grabs you
:11:21. > :11:26.and you think that someone gets you. That song gets it. It is an anthem
:11:27. > :11:33.for that. And I don't know why I didn't go right to the record store
:11:34. > :11:39.for $4.99 and by that record. Frankly I got into his records in my
:11:40. > :11:50.early 20s. Summer game music is Stardust -- someone gave me Ziggy
:11:51. > :11:56.Stardust. As far as inspiration goes, I am in awe of him. And now
:11:57. > :12:00.that he has departed, he leaves his music but he takes with him a
:12:01. > :12:07.universe in that he is not genre specific. He is a sovereign nation.
:12:08. > :12:13.And that is why everyone is so affected because you lose part of
:12:14. > :12:17.yourself when he goes. He was into design, into clothing, into the look
:12:18. > :12:23.and of course he was into his music, but he did acting to. He did
:12:24. > :12:36.film and art. I met him once. He walked by me at a festival and I was
:12:37. > :12:48.like shocked. I asked him if he wanted to have lunch. He started
:12:49. > :12:51.quoting me from interviews. And last year you said this, and he is
:12:52. > :12:57.quoting me again. So when is your next book out. I've read a few of
:12:58. > :13:01.them, not all of them and I was thinking I was going numb. And I had
:13:02. > :13:07.this amazing conversation with him at lunch. It was one of the biggest
:13:08. > :13:12.moments of my life. He took his art in different directions but he was
:13:13. > :13:17.never hugely political. You chose to be very political. As you branched
:13:18. > :13:25.out from the music you did your speaking tours, your spoken word
:13:26. > :13:28.records and clearly, when we talk about burning with anger earlier,
:13:29. > :13:33.were a lot of things on your mind, political things that you are
:13:34. > :13:37.determined to say. But that, in America, has been tough you because
:13:38. > :13:43.you are saying many things that Americans regard as toxic. In my
:13:44. > :13:46.opinion, just my opinion, I've never said anything controversial in my
:13:47. > :13:56.life. I don't advocate murder or destruction. I advocate literacy,
:13:57. > :14:03.empty battlefields, empty prisons and bathrooms swelling with
:14:04. > :14:07.potential. And I will take it. Some of the feedback of what your workers
:14:08. > :14:13.produce, some feel that you despise your own country. I love it so much
:14:14. > :14:17.I feel the need to critique it in order to make it better. At new say
:14:18. > :14:21.you are an exceptional country when you go online and see all these
:14:22. > :14:24.people say Michelle Obama is an ape and her children look like the
:14:25. > :14:29.standings for the planet of the eighth and her husband is a
:14:30. > :14:35.socialist Kenyon, insert a very horrible words, that is regressive.
:14:36. > :14:44.And I'm not going to point that out? I come from a country that starts
:14:45. > :14:49.fake wars. One that has gone out of their way to keep people from better
:14:50. > :14:52.education and when you finally have equality in America, which will
:14:53. > :14:57.never happen, everything changes. Wall Street changes, neighbourhoods
:14:58. > :14:59.change. And to say that and if someone gets mad at me for that, so
:15:00. > :15:10.what? Did you feel you are warrior in
:15:11. > :15:14.America's culture wars? Is not necessarily. The United States of
:15:15. > :15:24.America today is a deeply polarised race. Use it there, a metropolitan
:15:25. > :15:28.American, coastal American... Yes. I wonder when you talk in the way you
:15:29. > :15:34.just have to me how that goes down in what they call flyover America,
:15:35. > :15:38.middle America? Those communities where frankly you sound like an
:15:39. > :15:42.alien. Some people say there is able to waiting for you next time you
:15:43. > :15:46.come to St Louis. I have got the e-mail, yes. I don't think I'm
:15:47. > :15:56.advocating anything except what the institution is... But what I'm
:15:57. > :16:00.getting at is whether when you go on tour, do you feel it is important to
:16:01. > :16:03.reach out to those Americans who come from a very different sort of
:16:04. > :16:10.intellectual and cultural tradition? Do you want to build bridges or burn
:16:11. > :16:16.bridges? No, build, build, build. But sadly, as a performer, you are
:16:17. > :16:23.preaching to the perverted, as I call it. People do not pay $30 to
:16:24. > :16:28.endure you. You are talking to people who are already on your side
:16:29. > :16:32.anyway. And I realise with adults, you cannot convince me of things
:16:33. > :16:36.that I don't... If you say there is no such thing as global climate
:16:37. > :16:40.change, I don't care what you bring with you, I'm still on the side of
:16:41. > :16:45.the scientists. If somebody thinks they need 80 guns in the bedroom
:16:46. > :16:49.because here comes Obama, I cannot divorce someone of that notion, I
:16:50. > :16:52.cannot disabuse them of their paranoia and I don't want to get a
:16:53. > :16:58.broken nose trying to do it. Because adults, and you are on, you cannot
:16:59. > :17:03.be changed. At some point you have to go, OK, that is you will stop and
:17:04. > :17:07.at a certain point, I just let it go. One thing that you do, which
:17:08. > :17:12.interest me, is you travel extensively. You go to places that
:17:13. > :17:16.let alone most Americans, you go to places most people around the world
:17:17. > :17:21.would not go to. Have been to North Korea, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria...
:17:22. > :17:26.You have been to all these places. Yes. You do it alone. You don't go
:17:27. > :17:32.with a film crew and a bunch of other people, you go alone. With a
:17:33. > :17:35.backpack and a personal camera. What is the point of those visits? You
:17:36. > :17:40.can fall in love with humanity over and over again because you meet
:17:41. > :17:43.people with nothing but a bowl and a T-shirt and they are so gentle and
:17:44. > :17:48.generous and they live their lives and all they want is a day without
:17:49. > :17:53.war, day without a minefield, and just some clean water. All they want
:17:54. > :17:59.is just a moment to breathe, which you and I enjoy, we count on it. I
:18:00. > :18:03.was in northern Uganda on my way to South Sudan and I had a translator.
:18:04. > :18:08.I was speaking with some local people and I said, what about the
:18:09. > :18:14.idea of retirement. They don't know what I'm talking about. I said, you
:18:15. > :18:17.get old. They said, your kids take care of you. Your wives and
:18:18. > :18:23.husbands. It said a vacation and they did not know. Life insurance.
:18:24. > :18:28.There are parts of the world where every day is immediate. There is no
:18:29. > :18:32.20 miles up the road or in four years I'm going to be here. They are
:18:33. > :18:36.thinking, tomorrow I'm hoping for that bowl of rice. And when you
:18:37. > :18:40.encounter that and you get on an aeroplane and a day and a half later
:18:41. > :18:43.you are driving down Sunset Boulevard with the dust of that
:18:44. > :18:47.country still on your Boots and you can look down and see it, it is a
:18:48. > :18:51.lot to walk around with and I live for that. I wonder what you make of
:18:52. > :18:55.the way in which people in those sorts of places on Syria to
:18:56. > :19:00.Afghanistan to South Sudan, the way they perceive America today. I don't
:19:01. > :19:05.know if they are people just trying to make nice with me but when I say
:19:06. > :19:12.I'm from America, it is almost like this, both, America! Obama!
:19:13. > :19:17.Taxidrivers -- taxidrivers all over the world love Obama. Right now we
:19:18. > :19:21.are in political season in the US. Right, sure. Perhaps the one
:19:22. > :19:25.candidate that have sucked up more of the oxygen of publicity or than
:19:26. > :19:30.anyone else is, and you know I'm going to see it, Donald Trump. A guy
:19:31. > :19:34.like you on the progressive, liberal left of American politics, when you
:19:35. > :19:38.look at the traction Donald Trump is getting full views which too many
:19:39. > :19:44.outside of America would see as ego driven and bizarre, how does that
:19:45. > :19:48.make you feel? It speaks of an America with a systematic dumbing
:19:49. > :19:53.down of late people who do not question, who are not scientifically
:19:54. > :19:56.inclined, who do not travel. They don't have a passport. They would go
:19:57. > :20:00.to India and see how a different culture does its thing. And they
:20:01. > :20:03.want the information on bumper sticker sized pieces of
:20:04. > :20:10.information. I'm not putting these people down. Why do they need only
:20:11. > :20:13.little bit of news? Because they are working two jobs. They're getting up
:20:14. > :20:16.at four o'clock in the morning, feeding the kids, getting into a
:20:17. > :20:21.cubicle Orica that they hoped will not break down. And someone says
:20:22. > :20:24.they will build a wall and there will be no more of those down
:20:25. > :20:29.Muslims, and it is a way of getting people to your site with tough talk
:20:30. > :20:33.when economic times go about. Historically, that is how you get
:20:34. > :20:36.people to do unspeakable things. Can the American mindset be changed? You
:20:37. > :20:40.are talking about a lack of knowledge and a lack of curiosity
:20:41. > :20:48.about the rest of the world. Kenny changed? Sure! You can be an agent
:20:49. > :20:52.of change? All I can do is shoot my mouth off and speak what I think is
:20:53. > :20:55.the truth. If America really wanted to, if you took the money that you
:20:56. > :21:00.put into defence and put it into education, in about 100 years, you
:21:01. > :21:05.might have less crime, more middle class mobility, because more people
:21:06. > :21:10.would have the option. They would have more intellect, more stuff in
:21:11. > :21:14.there, and maybe there would be some options. I was raised with options.
:21:15. > :21:20.I'm a white male raise middle-class. The nature of the colour of my skin
:21:21. > :21:24.and gender in America, sadly, opens doors for me. It should not be that
:21:25. > :21:29.we. I should be judged on what I do but that is not how it works. I
:21:30. > :21:34.wanted and, if I may, with some personal reflection. You are pretty
:21:35. > :21:37.extraordinary because from the punk rock to the one-man shows to
:21:38. > :21:41.travelling the world, you are constantly mixing with the public,
:21:42. > :21:45.and putting yourself on show to sit next to it. You have described
:21:46. > :21:49.yourself as a deeply solitary person. You have said he would be
:21:50. > :21:53.happy to bring all of the time because you not -- you would not be
:21:54. > :21:57.beholden to anyone except for yourself. They would not want the
:21:58. > :22:03.kids or partner at home to the tying you down. Are you truly that lonely?
:22:04. > :22:10.I'm not lonely. I'm solitary. It is a lonely mindset. I'm not lonely. I
:22:11. > :22:16.don't miss anybody. I miss the audience. But that is not a true
:22:17. > :22:23.intimate relationship. Not at all. Do you not want intimate
:22:24. > :22:27.relationships? I tried. I'm just not worried -- wired for it. I have been
:22:28. > :22:30.into girls and I have been into them and they have been momentarily into
:22:31. > :22:34.me but not so much because I'm always looking at my schedule and
:22:35. > :22:38.then it is like, I can hang out with you for a day and then I'm leaving.
:22:39. > :22:43.Everybody sees my priority for it I was lonely in my 20s. I was way more
:22:44. > :22:47.analogue. When you had a girlfriend, you would write her a letter. I'm 55
:22:48. > :22:52.and I now does want to go and do stuff. I want to work vigorously,
:22:53. > :22:55.travel had and have a crazy itinerary that demands that I get up
:22:56. > :22:57.at eight o'clock in the morning and do this and don't be late and
:22:58. > :23:01.prepare for this thing that I'm really not that good doing but I
:23:02. > :23:07.signed up for anyway. It keeps the blood thin. That is the life I lead.
:23:08. > :23:11.It is essential but there are things I go without. I don't go home to
:23:12. > :23:18.anybody. Most of the friendships I have either pay a commission of
:23:19. > :23:22.salary to these people. I like them and I hope they respect me and I
:23:23. > :23:26.respect them but we don't hang out on the weekends. I see them Monday
:23:27. > :23:31.to Friday. Unless it is the road manager. Then we will be good
:23:32. > :23:35.together for the next year. You are probably the most self-contained
:23:36. > :23:40.guest I have had on the show. I don't know what else to do. This is
:23:41. > :23:43.how I am. You are not ready to animal. When you are an adult, you
:23:44. > :23:48.find out who you are and I guess that is who I am full of Henry
:23:49. > :23:52.Rollins, it has been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.