:00:00. > :00:19.Welcome to HARDtalk. All sanctions relating to Iran's nuclear programme
:00:20. > :00:29.have enlisted in a deal labelled historic. -- in listed. A change in
:00:30. > :00:36.their history had begun to be my guest is Jack Straw who served under
:00:37. > :00:43.Tony Blair. -- begun. He supports closer ties with Iran. What is he is
:00:44. > :00:46.response to critics who believes that this will bolster the
:00:47. > :00:52.hardliners in the country, exacerbate regional rivalries, and
:00:53. > :01:16.instil a sense of terror in the Middle East.
:01:17. > :01:27.Jack Straw, welcome. The Iranian Foreign Minister said the lifting of
:01:28. > :01:34.sanctions on Iran would be good for Iran and the region and the world.
:01:35. > :01:38.Is he right? Yeah. The people doubt that, but they need to think about
:01:39. > :01:43.the alternative. If sanctions have not been lifted and Iran made a
:01:44. > :01:52.pariah state. What would have happened? In my view, if the
:01:53. > :01:57.sanctions had not been agreed by President Obama and the US, the
:01:58. > :02:01.hardliners in Iran would have eclipsed President Rouhani and the
:02:02. > :02:10.nuclear weapons programme, which is generally accepted, that would have
:02:11. > :02:15.restarted. The world would have definitely become a more dangerous
:02:16. > :02:20.place. This guarantees Iran, even if it wants to, cannot restart it is
:02:21. > :02:25.nuclear weapons programme for 15 years. You are satisfied that all
:02:26. > :02:31.the checks the US says are there will be carried out vigorously...
:02:32. > :02:37.You are satisfied they are OK? They are. You can never be completely
:02:38. > :02:40.satisfied, but nuclear weapons programmes are much more difficult
:02:41. > :02:47.to hide than chemical and biological weapons programmes. The IAEA is the
:02:48. > :02:52.agency responsible for checking this and it is all over Iran and has a
:02:53. > :02:59.lot of a ground knowledge. The key country is the United States. --
:03:00. > :03:06.background. They often called the US the great Satan and part of the axis
:03:07. > :03:12.of evil. You have got people in the US who are very concerned, Obama
:03:13. > :03:15.will be on his way out soon, I will give you one example, Marco Rubio,
:03:16. > :03:25.one of the Republican presidential candidates, he has thwarted Obama
:03:26. > :03:33.for rewarding Iran despite it's atrocious record. There is huge
:03:34. > :03:41.mistrust. -- its. There is. If you go to Tehran and see the slogans of
:03:42. > :03:50.death to America still on the walls... The British embassy... The
:03:51. > :03:56.liberal Satan, they called Britain. We are in the same company. In the
:03:57. > :04:04.side streets around the compound is the Bobby Sands street named after
:04:05. > :04:09.the IRA bomber... It is more the mistrust in the US I was talking
:04:10. > :04:16.about, a key nations a pillow there is of course huge distrust. --
:04:17. > :04:24.nation. -- much of that has been whipped up by the Israelis. This may
:04:25. > :04:32.sound patronising... Amongst the body politic in the US, there is a
:04:33. > :04:36.level of under information verging on ignorance about international
:04:37. > :04:41.affairs which is often terrifying. When he says Iran has an atrocious
:04:42. > :04:46.man rights record he has a point. -- human rights. They execute more
:04:47. > :04:53.people than any other country apart from China. 160 juvenile offenders
:04:54. > :04:57.on death row... A very poor record. But is that a reason for not
:04:58. > :05:02.agreeing to this deal in respect to nuclear weapons? I suspect, I don't
:05:03. > :05:07.know, I suspect the reformers who have agreed this deal would also
:05:08. > :05:16.like to see a change in their human rights record. Bear in mind that the
:05:17. > :05:20.judicial read and elements that of the forces that arrest people are
:05:21. > :05:26.not in control of the government. -- judiciary. I would also say that
:05:27. > :05:32.China has a horrible human rights record and so does Saudi Arabia.
:05:33. > :05:37.Absolutely atrocious. A terrible record in terms of the treatment of
:05:38. > :05:44.women, far worse than Iran. And, don't forget, in Senator Rubio's
:05:45. > :05:49.home state, Texas, they have one of the worst records of capital
:05:50. > :05:55.punishment as well. He is just one of many voices. The point is you
:05:56. > :05:59.cannot just criticise the message because there is substance to the
:06:00. > :06:05.message. Another example with Iran. The Foreign Minister said no country
:06:06. > :06:10.has one, this is a draw. But the idea that Iran is being rewarded
:06:11. > :06:16.even though it isn't being asked to changes behaviour... -- won. The
:06:17. > :06:20.National Security Council says they tend to back Shiah populations and
:06:21. > :06:26.insights them to violence and provide them with the wherewithal to
:06:27. > :06:30.do so. Thus, the Iranians have become deeply embroiled in the wars
:06:31. > :06:34.of the region. That is true. But it is true in the opposite way with
:06:35. > :06:42.Saudi Arabia. It is embroiled in the other way. It is a given that Iran,
:06:43. > :06:47.the leader of the minority Shia community within the Muslim world,
:06:48. > :06:50.should have a natural association with other Shia communities in
:06:51. > :06:59.Lebanon and Syria and Iraq and along the golf as well as in the western
:07:00. > :07:07.part of Afghanistan. -- the Gulf. The question is how do you engage
:07:08. > :07:18.with Iran in those... So even Bashar al-Assad, the offshoot of Shiahism,
:07:19. > :07:24.responsible for the death of many in Syria... That is understandable? As
:07:25. > :07:29.a matter of social and geographic loyalties and historic connections,
:07:30. > :07:37.yeah, that is not in the least to excuse President Assad and his
:07:38. > :07:39.brutal regime... And his allies, Iranians, the Revolutionary Guard
:07:40. > :07:44.fighting on the ground alongside him. And his allies. The Syrian
:07:45. > :07:51.conflict is incredibly complicated, as you know. The Assad regime is
:07:52. > :08:00.also being supported by the Shia, but also the Christians who feel
:08:01. > :08:04.under threat from the Sunnis and some Sunni business people as well.
:08:05. > :08:07.The question is not, are you going to break these long-standing
:08:08. > :08:11.connections, it is what a few going to do about them's you are far more
:08:12. > :08:17.likely, from my ex variants in dealing with Iran and other
:08:18. > :08:23.countries, to get Iran to help, if Iran is around the table it is much
:08:24. > :08:28.easier. -- them? If you want some political solution to the series of
:08:29. > :08:35.war, which we do, of course, you have to have them around the table
:08:36. > :08:38.along with countries that Russia. -- Syrian War. The first Geneva accords
:08:39. > :08:45.were doomed to failure because the British and US governments decided
:08:46. > :08:50.to exclude Iran. The reverse is also true. If Iran is around the table,
:08:51. > :08:56.they have made it clear, and so has Russia, yeah, Bashar al-Assad will
:08:57. > :09:07.have to be part of the solution in terms of the agreement, but as soon
:09:08. > :09:14.as there has in a piece, the Assad's family's duties will lie elsewhere.
:09:15. > :09:23.-- been a piece. Saudi Arabia, of course, the major Sunni force in the
:09:24. > :09:26.region, a huge rivalry with the Iranian. We see all sorts of Roxy
:09:27. > :09:34.was laying out between the two of them. -- proxy wars. Backing the
:09:35. > :09:41.Houthis... All sorts of rivalries in the region. The Saudi Arabians are
:09:42. > :09:49.incredibly unhappy about this. They are. One of the reasons President
:09:50. > :09:53.Obama pushed for this is to make them unhappy. It may sound odd, but
:09:54. > :09:58.there is anxiety in Washington and European capitals about the
:09:59. > :10:05.direction of travel of the Saudi regime. I believe that part of the
:10:06. > :10:11.sub agenda of these talks and this rapprochement has been to secure a
:10:12. > :10:19.different balance of power in the Gulf. If the West is able to get
:10:20. > :10:24.normal business with Iran and foreign policy as well... That will
:10:25. > :10:30.make relations with Saudi Arabia more balanced. Is that a strategy
:10:31. > :10:38.you back? Having Iran as a counterweight? Do you believe that
:10:39. > :10:46.the West and the UK is too close to Saudi Arabia? Is neat to be. -- it
:10:47. > :10:52.needs to be rebalanced. Just as the process of breaking out of the trap
:10:53. > :10:56.of sanctions in Iran is actually in the long-run helping the reforms...
:10:57. > :11:02.I will ask you about that then. Just to finish the Southee in. You
:11:03. > :11:06.believe that is the correct strategy? -- Saudi thing. Is that
:11:07. > :11:13.because you believe that western nations are to close to Saudi
:11:14. > :11:18.Arabia? -- Western. You can criticise me for this, but in the
:11:19. > :11:22.absence of Iran and a proper relationship, there is only one
:11:23. > :11:29.serious capital in the least, Riyadh. That has now changed. --
:11:30. > :11:35.Middle East. We have to have terms where they acknowledge that they
:11:36. > :11:38.have a neighbour across the Persian Gulf who has a different set of
:11:39. > :11:43.viewpoints and they have to work with them. And there is also concern
:11:44. > :11:50.about the internal situation in Saudi Arabia. They need a council
:11:51. > :11:53.thinking about that. When David Cameron says the relationship with
:11:54. > :11:58.Saudi Arabia is important for our security in the UK, what do you make
:11:59. > :12:05.of that? Is the wrong or right? He is right that it is important. --
:12:06. > :12:13.he. Don't want to see them going up. But you want to die muted? --
:12:14. > :12:16.dilute it. I don't believe that if we have a better relationship with
:12:17. > :12:21.Iran it sucks the power and influence out of the relationship
:12:22. > :12:24.with Saudi Arabia. The sensible approach in international diplomacy
:12:25. > :12:29.is to have good relations with all. If you want better stability within
:12:30. > :12:35.the region, you need to have Saudi Arabia and Iran finally accepting
:12:36. > :12:39.that their destiny in that region, however difficult, lies together.
:12:40. > :12:46.That will not happen. Wendy Saudi Arabian Foreign Ministry chose
:12:47. > :12:48.Iran's record has been one of fear and destabilisation and interference
:12:49. > :12:53.in the affairs of other countries... -- says. That is just
:12:54. > :12:58.one quote from the Saudi Foreign Minister. And also a Saudi Arabian
:12:59. > :13:06.journalist to have equated and is a former adviser to the Foreign
:13:07. > :13:15.Minister, saying that if Saudi Arabia gets a nuclear bomb... -- --
:13:16. > :13:23.been quoted. He gets excited in contrast to his predecessor. I don't
:13:24. > :13:31.think he would have said things in this way. Look, you have a terrible
:13:32. > :13:36.hopelessness with no end to it with civil war in the Yemen. The only way
:13:37. > :13:40.that can be resolved is by negotiations with Saudi Arabia and
:13:41. > :13:46.Iran. They are fighting a proxy war. They have negotiations, may be
:13:47. > :13:50.brokered in turn by the United States, Russia and the EU. They have
:13:51. > :13:56.to start trying to live together. Obama's strengthening of the Iranian
:13:57. > :14:05.government, in my view, in homes is that prospect. The you tend own
:14:06. > :14:16.Saudi Arabia's actions in Yemen? -- condone.
:14:17. > :14:25.I am worried, as it turns out, British military personnel involved
:14:26. > :14:31.in giving assistance in terms of targeting. Nobody I speak to who
:14:32. > :14:39.knows it much better than I do, thinks that this conflict in Yemen,
:14:40. > :14:48.is anything with more tears. And the people of Yemen are renowned for
:14:49. > :14:57.just carrying on fighting. So should Britain then stop... If there is a
:14:58. > :15:04.far better explanation offered, we should withdraw that support and
:15:05. > :15:11.work towards a political solution. There are concerns that there have
:15:12. > :15:15.been attacked to have been attacks with kill people within that area. I
:15:16. > :15:23.defend the British government's policy the supporting the US and the
:15:24. > :15:28.French in the strikes in cereal and northern Iraq and sometimes
:15:29. > :15:32.civilians will be killed but that sometimes is a very sad consequence
:15:33. > :15:36.and very necessary action. I don't see the same case as Forest Yemen is
:15:37. > :15:40.concerned. It is a little reported war in terms of how the West has
:15:41. > :15:44.reported. But it has huge potential for destabilisation. The thing I do
:15:45. > :15:49.not understand is how that Saudi's think they can contain this within
:15:50. > :15:54.the borders of Yemen. The borders between Yemen and Saudi Arabia are
:15:55. > :16:03.very porous indeed. Just a final thing on this Saudi and Iranian
:16:04. > :16:11.relationship, you have other vested interests like Sudan and other
:16:12. > :16:38.countries field. Don't forget in Bahrain there is a Shia majority.
:16:39. > :16:43.don't buy into what I see is a naive view in terms of trade
:16:44. > :16:53.relationship. I'm not in any doubt that if you can improve trade and
:16:54. > :16:56.raise the common interest, then you reduce the security threats to
:16:57. > :17:04.country. And I'm sure that why the council in the UAE will recognise
:17:05. > :17:07.that. They are completely relaxed about Iran and a very happy about
:17:08. > :17:12.what has happened. Going back to Iran now, you said several times
:17:13. > :17:19.that lifting of the sanctions relating to Iran's sanctions has
:17:20. > :17:21.left something like the dollar exchange restrictions due to Iraq's
:17:22. > :17:29.listed missile brought new sanctions on 11
:17:30. > :17:34.individuals. And those still exist up in terms of the nuclear
:17:35. > :17:37.sanctions, you have consistently said that will bolster the moderates
:17:38. > :17:45.at the expense of the hardliners. Why are you so sure of that Russian
:17:46. > :17:56.yellow because I've developed an understanding of the politics within
:17:57. > :18:13.Iran -- so sure of that? You were the first key Western politician to
:18:14. > :18:21.visit. I visited just after 9/11. He had been elected in 97 and he was a
:18:22. > :18:26.reformist. He was tried to open things up. You then had 9/11. In
:18:27. > :18:30.Baghdad, Saddam Hussein organised celebrations against the Americans
:18:31. > :18:35.to celebrate the fact that our kinder had taken down the twin
:18:36. > :18:40.towers. In sharp contrast, the president organised the jewels in
:18:41. > :18:44.sympathy with the victims of 9/11. He reached out to the west and that
:18:45. > :18:50.is one of the key reasons I went there so quickly. And the
:18:51. > :18:57.consequence was that Iran was fantastically helpful for the West
:18:58. > :19:06.until President Bush pulled the rug from under the feet of the Iranians
:19:07. > :19:15.with his access of evil speech. Why do think they will be strengthened?
:19:16. > :19:19.If they help the moderates, they will help us. And the reverse is
:19:20. > :19:29.also true as I saw so starkly in the years after the access of evil
:19:30. > :19:36.speech when Iran was lumped in with Iraq -- axis. Know there were
:19:37. > :19:40.concerns the other Gulf states the list $100 billion that has often
:19:41. > :19:44.been quoted now as the sanctions relief one way or another will come
:19:45. > :19:53.to Iran in time, it's going to be used to Iran two males are more in
:19:54. > :20:01.the region. -- meddling. All of the big countries... Just with Iran
:20:02. > :20:06.honour they could use the money with that. It is the people within the
:20:07. > :20:14.Revolutionary guards and the businesses they control and who have
:20:15. > :20:18.been most opposed to the president beginning in this and signing this
:20:19. > :20:25.deal. They were putting the supreme leader under three great pressure to
:20:26. > :20:30.refuse authorities to make those deals. We are where we are now. And
:20:31. > :20:34.you are asking me how can I be certain, you can never be certain in
:20:35. > :20:40.international relations but I'm far more certain than I ever was that
:20:41. > :20:51.this deal will help moderates. On this 100 billion... I know it will
:20:52. > :20:57.happen gradually. And the Iranian economy needs restructuring. You
:20:58. > :21:05.cannot be certain because you have asserted it and we know that the
:21:06. > :21:08.other conservatives and the hardliners with Parliamentary
:21:09. > :21:12.elections in February coming have been prevented from standing because
:21:13. > :21:18.they are too reformist. Berry still a long way to go with that. I want
:21:19. > :21:24.to ask you as a senior Labour figure about your party because when it
:21:25. > :21:29.comes to action like the intensified air strikes against Syria and when
:21:30. > :21:34.the British royal air force came in, the new Labour leader was
:21:35. > :21:41.opposed to that, you might key members of the Shadow Cabinet
:21:42. > :21:45.supporting air strike. Is that kind of position tenable to have a key
:21:46. > :21:52.figure like her so out of step with the leader? Hillary was supporting a
:21:53. > :21:58.substantial proportion of the parliamentary party. It is something
:21:59. > :22:02.we have to live with at the moment that the party is somewhat divided.
:22:03. > :22:08.That as a consequence of the electoral system that produced a
:22:09. > :22:15.leader, Jeremy Corbyn who was perfectly elected. Is it tenable?
:22:16. > :22:19.When you were Foreign Secretary you supported the invasion of Iraq and
:22:20. > :22:23.Tony Blair was a huge proponent of that. The state-of-the-art in, and
:22:24. > :22:27.you are out of step as Hillary is with Jeremy Corbyn, would you have
:22:28. > :22:34.remained in the government if you disagreed with him? Not in
:22:35. > :22:41.government. I differed with him. If you were in Hillary's shoes you
:22:42. > :22:51.would... You are in a very different position. This is not the first time
:22:52. > :22:56.that senior opposition leaders have disagreed that that happened in the
:22:57. > :22:59.1950s, it was optically pretty and it was not particularly pretty at
:23:00. > :23:04.the moment. But it is a fact of life. In opposition we are making
:23:05. > :23:08.decisions in government. It does not matter. It does matter but it does
:23:09. > :23:12.not have the same affect. If you are saying you cannot be an effective
:23:13. > :23:19.opposition, and the Labour leader asking further unilateral
:23:20. > :23:21.disarmament and the future of Trident and the nuclear warheads
:23:22. > :23:26.whether they should go on the submarines are not, and when you
:23:27. > :23:29.have a leader like that who was a large part of the Labour Party
:23:30. > :23:38.disagree with him, his days are numbered, surely? I disagree. It was
:23:39. > :23:41.not a system that he created. The rest of the party needs to accept
:23:42. > :23:45.that he was elected perfectly fairly by a system that he had no control.
:23:46. > :23:49.You cannot blame the candidates are using the system. I don't happen to
:23:50. > :23:53.agree with Jeremy on a lot of things, but as it happens, we were
:23:54. > :23:59.on the same page with the future of Iran. He was democratic elected and
:24:00. > :24:02.one wailed another the Parliamentary party and Jeremy Corbyn's leadership
:24:03. > :24:07.will have to reach some accommodation. It is a painful
:24:08. > :24:11.process and it is something that happened for the first time 50
:24:12. > :24:17.years. Gifford coming on HARDtalk. Thank you. -- thank you for coming
:24:18. > :24:19.on.