:00:00. > :00:18.Welcome to HARDtalk from Paris, with me, Stephen Sackur. Two months ago
:00:19. > :00:22.this country was put on a war footing by President Hollande.
:00:23. > :00:27.Troops were deployed, security measures taken and legislation
:00:28. > :00:32.tabled, all of it aimed at confronting the so-called Islamic
:00:33. > :00:36.State jihadist terrorists. Has France, has Europe, drawn the right
:00:37. > :00:41.lessons from those November atrocities? My guest today is
:00:42. > :00:42.France's Europe minister, Harlem Desir.
:00:43. > :01:01.Just how vulnerable is the French Republic?
:01:02. > :01:14.I think we have to begin with the security situation in Paris just two
:01:15. > :01:21.months after the terrible attacks in the city. Your president, Hollande,
:01:22. > :01:26.has declared war on terrorism. That will echo the words of George Bush
:01:27. > :01:31.all those years ago. Do you think it was a wise thing to do? I think we
:01:32. > :01:40.have a situation where we have been attacked. Terrorists have killed
:01:41. > :01:46.people. They assassinate innocent people, cartoonists, people because
:01:47. > :01:50.they are policemen or Jews. They aim at killing our way of life, freedom
:01:51. > :01:58.and open society. That is a fact that we have two fight them. Outside
:01:59. > :02:02.of Europe, because of the situation in the Middle East with the Islamic
:02:03. > :02:08.State, who have declared war against not only us, we have seen the
:02:09. > :02:16.terrorist attack in Istanbul, Jakarta, again in Tunisia a Russian
:02:17. > :02:22.plane -- to fight them. We have to fight against foreign fighters who
:02:23. > :02:24.are coming to Europe. But I think there is a very important difference
:02:25. > :02:31.with the reference you have made with George Bush. He has not
:02:32. > :02:38.designated the axis of evil. He has not said there is a war against all
:02:39. > :02:42.Muslim communities. Sure, but what he has done is put the authority of
:02:43. > :02:48.the French state into this concept of a war of being at war with
:02:49. > :02:53.so-called Islamic State, which is precisely what they want. They want
:02:54. > :02:59.this war. It is a war against terrorism. This terrorism now is
:03:00. > :03:06.organised by different groups. The main one being Islamic State. We
:03:07. > :03:11.have seen it in other countries, those who are still affiliated with
:03:12. > :03:14.Al-Qaeda or other terrorist groups. We have to live with it. It means
:03:15. > :03:20.that we have to take security measures. We also have to remain
:03:21. > :03:27.able to go back to the concert halls, to go back to the. It is a
:03:28. > :03:32.different kind of war. Does it worry you that senior members of your
:03:33. > :03:38.Socialist Party, a former Foreign Minister, said that Hollande's words
:03:39. > :03:42.were a mistake, it was a mistake to respond, he had fallen to a trap and
:03:43. > :03:50.was playing into the hands of the killers who want to divide us and
:03:51. > :03:56.push our country into a civil war. I have read this position but I
:03:57. > :04:01.disagree with him on this point -- back to the terrace. When you are in
:04:02. > :04:05.the face of such an attack against a mock sea, against open society,
:04:06. > :04:11.against pluralist society, you have to face it, you have to recognise we
:04:12. > :04:19.have not chosen this enemy. Let us focus on the internal factors,
:04:20. > :04:22.because in this country right now today there are so many Muslims,
:04:23. > :04:25.children of migrants who have come to this country and our French
:04:26. > :04:32.citizens who do not feel a part of this country -- are. That is the
:04:33. > :04:38.situation in which the terrorists are playing to. Absolutely. They
:04:39. > :04:43.play on this. They recruit young people in our country, in France,
:04:44. > :04:46.but not only. There are foreign fighters coming from all over
:04:47. > :04:50.Europe. Of course but I want to talk to you about what is happening here
:04:51. > :04:53.and your government, some of the proposal since the November attacks
:04:54. > :04:58.appear to me to be sending the message to those people, the
:04:59. > :05:02.children of migrants, those who have their origins overseas but who are
:05:03. > :05:07.French citizens, the message is - you are not fully French citizens in
:05:08. > :05:10.the way the rest of us are. That is the message that comes from Mr
:05:11. > :05:15.Hollande's proposals to deprive those who are dual citizens of
:05:16. > :05:21.France but of another country too, of their French citizenship if they
:05:22. > :05:26.are involved in serious crime. The message seems to be that you are not
:05:27. > :05:31.full French citizens. No, this condemnation will only be a
:05:32. > :05:37.condemnation for those people who will be condemned by just as because
:05:38. > :05:42.of their dissipation in terrorism. It is not condemnation or
:05:43. > :05:46.designation of all of those who have foreign origin as a suspect. Not at
:05:47. > :05:49.all. The point is it is treating those with dual citizenship of
:05:50. > :05:54.foreign origin differently from those who are just French citizens.
:05:55. > :05:58.There is a different treatment. However terrible crimes committed by
:05:59. > :06:03.a solely French citizen, they could never have that citizenship stripped
:06:04. > :06:07.from them. A dual citizen could and that seems to many French people of
:06:08. > :06:13.outside origin to be deeply unfair. Yes. There is debate on this. Do you
:06:14. > :06:18.think it is unfair? No, I don't answer at all. On this proposal of
:06:19. > :06:24.the deprivation of nationality. It already exists. It is very rare to
:06:25. > :06:34.use it because it is such an exceptional situation. Deciding on
:06:35. > :06:37.this deprivation of nationality. It has been already used. The
:06:38. > :06:42.difference is that it is possible for those who acquired nationality,
:06:43. > :06:48.French nationality, and those who have kept their previous
:06:49. > :06:51.nationality. In this proposal it will also be possible for those who
:06:52. > :06:57.acquire the French nationality by birth, but to keep, if they are, and
:06:58. > :07:02.after having condemned for terrorist crime. You make it sound quite
:07:03. > :07:07.complex but it is actually quite simple. A lot of socialist,
:07:08. > :07:13.including the former Prime Minister, the Mayor of the city of Paris, and
:07:14. > :07:18.indeed your own organisation, the one you found those years ago, SOS,
:07:19. > :07:27.they all say, they all say, this proposal a terrible mistake, SOS
:07:28. > :07:33.says it is a huge betrayal of French principles. Well, I hope we can
:07:34. > :07:38.convince them. It is an NGO. It is your NGO. You seem to have moved an
:07:39. > :07:40.awful long way. You once said to the French government, do not take
:07:41. > :07:47.measures which appeared to differentiate between immigrant
:07:48. > :07:49.French people and those who have been French for many generations.
:07:50. > :07:57.Now your message seems to have changed. I just want to tell you,
:07:58. > :08:02.Steven, that the white majority of immigrant people becoming French
:08:03. > :08:10.citizens are not involved in terrorism. For terrorist activity.
:08:11. > :08:15.This is a principle. The message of President Hollande, and other Prime
:08:16. > :08:23.Minister, since the first terrorist attack last January, and the attack
:08:24. > :08:27.in November against that Bataclan was to unify the country. That is
:08:28. > :08:30.what the terrorists were aiming for. With the greatest respect it has
:08:31. > :08:36.unified no one. Left-wing members of the National Assembly say that what
:08:37. > :08:43.the Socialist government is doing today in its response, the Draconian
:08:44. > :08:47.response to the November atrocities, is gifting the far right. In fact,
:08:48. > :08:52.she goes all of the way to say that it reminds her of Vichy France, that
:08:53. > :08:59.the Socialist government today is doing things that remind her of what
:09:00. > :09:03.the Vichy administration did in collaboration with the Nazis of the
:09:04. > :09:10.second War. That is not acceptable. What was made in that Vichy regime
:09:11. > :09:15.under the Nazi occupation was the decision to withdraw the nationality
:09:16. > :09:18.of the Jewish people just because they were Jewish, not because they
:09:19. > :09:22.were condemned for anything they had done, but for what they were. The
:09:23. > :09:30.fact that French citizenship is very open every year - 80,000 or more
:09:31. > :09:38.people become French citizens either by birth or by acquisition or by
:09:39. > :09:41.marriage - and this will remain, this is the conception of
:09:42. > :09:48.nationality. It is a symbolic measure which says that if you kill
:09:49. > :09:50.French people, if you take part in the terrorist activities against our
:09:51. > :09:56.nation and democracy, against Europe, you are not part any more of
:09:57. > :10:04.the French community. If you look at the number of attacks, for example,
:10:05. > :10:10.Islamophobe and anti semitic attacks, recent incidents, and you
:10:11. > :10:13.see that year on year France is experiencing greater levels of
:10:14. > :10:17.racism. I won't say there is no problem of racism or an Thai
:10:18. > :10:26.Semitism or xenophobia in France. That is part of my commitment --
:10:27. > :10:32.anti-semitism. Are you not worry that your movement to eradicate
:10:33. > :10:35.racism from France has failed? One of the reasons Muslims feel alienate
:10:36. > :10:41.it in this country today is because they don't feel that a huge number
:10:42. > :10:46.of their fellow French people want them in this country at all --
:10:47. > :10:51.alienated. Yes, but I will ask to make a distinction between the fact
:10:52. > :10:57.that there is a problem of racism, of discrimination, and we have to
:10:58. > :10:59.fight it. The president of the Republic chose, before this
:11:00. > :11:06.terrorist attack of January, that this year, last year, was designated
:11:07. > :11:09.as a year of fighting racism and anti-Semitism, because we are
:11:10. > :11:14.absolutely sure that this is a poison in society. With respect, you
:11:15. > :11:18.have been saying that for years. I could go into the suburbs not far
:11:19. > :11:22.from here, ten miles from here, and I could talk to young Muslim and
:11:23. > :11:26.young African immigrants in this country who have French
:11:27. > :11:31.citizenship, who have no chance of getting a job, who feel the police
:11:32. > :11:36.discriminate against them every single day and these are the kind of
:11:37. > :11:40.angry, alienate it at isolated young people who are France's greatest
:11:41. > :11:45.problem today -- alienated. This is a very great problem and that is why
:11:46. > :11:49.it is a priority. To fight against any kind of urban and social
:11:50. > :11:52.ghettoisation, the Prime Minister uses this word which is very strong.
:11:53. > :11:57.I think the Prime Minister talks about apartheid. Social apartheid.
:11:58. > :12:01.It is wanting to talk about it but what is he doing?! Apart from making
:12:02. > :12:09.laws to withdraw citizenship, what is he doing? That is why I was in
:12:10. > :12:12.policy, mixing in school, all of these policies are priority. One of
:12:13. > :12:18.the big features of the year since Charlie Hebdo has been the migration
:12:19. > :12:23.crisis in Europe, across Europe. Do you believe that the migration
:12:24. > :12:29.crisis has exacerbated the polarisation of opinion when it
:12:30. > :12:33.comes to how to deal with immigrants, how to run a society so
:12:34. > :12:38.that it is for the benefit everyone, and would say that now is the time
:12:39. > :12:46.for Europe to develop a different sort of immigration policy? I think
:12:47. > :12:52.that this immigration refugee crisis, of course, is putting Europe
:12:53. > :12:59.under a test, a test of credibility for giving protection to those who
:13:00. > :13:04.are escaping from a war, or from a dictator, in Syria... Yesterday, the
:13:05. > :13:07.German transport minister said that his own leader, Chancellor Merkel,
:13:08. > :13:13.could no longer viably maintained the open borders policy. He said to
:13:14. > :13:17.his own boss, Chancellor Merkel, he said - I urgently advise, we must
:13:18. > :13:24.prepare ourselves for not being able to avoid border closures. Germany
:13:25. > :13:29.closing its borders. Do you in France believe that national borders
:13:30. > :13:33.now need to be closed, say between your country in Italy, say between
:13:34. > :13:38.Denmark and Sweden - are we returning to a Europe of national
:13:39. > :13:43.border security? Yes, we have seen that Schengen is in danger now. If
:13:44. > :13:48.you don't ensure the control of the external common border, then you see
:13:49. > :13:53.many countries, you have mentioned Germany, but you can see what
:13:54. > :13:55.happened in Denmark, in Sweden and many other countries,
:13:56. > :14:02.re-establishing of the national border. So, France believes Schengen
:14:03. > :14:06.is dying and Schengen is dead? We think we must save Schengen. It is
:14:07. > :14:10.in very big danger. The only way to do is to implement the kind of
:14:11. > :14:15.decisions that has been taken but not implemented now, which is to
:14:16. > :14:21.reinforce the capability of European Union to control external borders.
:14:22. > :14:28.Right now, to you believe national border controls will have to be
:14:29. > :14:31.re-enacted? Your own Prime Minister said, we cannot accommodate any more
:14:32. > :14:35.refugees in Europe. If they are still coming, and Jim Nibley France
:14:36. > :14:41.believes national border security has to be imposed? -- presumably.
:14:42. > :14:47.What we want is to reinforce the control of the external border...
:14:48. > :14:50.But that's not happening. In some countries, where there has been an
:14:51. > :14:57.influx of refugees, which has not been stopped, we are just adding
:14:58. > :15:00.this kind of decision. One of the reasons they kept coming in such
:15:01. > :15:05.enormous numbers and are still coming is because Chancellor Merkel
:15:06. > :15:09.sent the message, she called it the friendly face of Germany. Open
:15:10. > :15:13.borders. Did the Germans make a terrible mistake? I don't think so.
:15:14. > :15:17.If you look at the first causes, like Europe, which is surrounded by
:15:18. > :15:26.the most important international crisis. There was the crisis in
:15:27. > :15:28.Ukraine, it's a matter of instability. You have what happens
:15:29. > :15:32.in the Middle East, especially the war in Syria. These factors are
:15:33. > :15:37.there, the question is how Europe deals with it. We don't have much
:15:38. > :15:43.time, I just wonder if you are ashamed that France, only the
:15:44. > :15:49.recipient of several thousand refugees at any one time, struggles
:15:50. > :15:54.to give them any sort of decent accommodation? For example, in
:15:55. > :15:58.Calais there are 5000 people living in atrocious conditions. We have
:15:59. > :16:01.seen in Germany over the past year the German government has
:16:02. > :16:06.successfully given shelter and accommodation to 1 million refugees.
:16:07. > :16:12.Is that not shaming for France? We will give shelter to people in
:16:13. > :16:19.Calais and that's why we've changed the structure. I also want to say,
:16:20. > :16:24.another reality is that France last year, figures just published show,
:16:25. > :16:28.we have given protection to more than 17,000 people. We have a
:16:29. > :16:35.specific problem in Calais because some people, refugees, wants to go
:16:36. > :16:41.to UK. Of course we are not telling them they can go in the tunnel and
:16:42. > :16:46.just be blocked on the other side of the channel. Let's talk about the
:16:47. > :16:51.possibility, the real possibility, that in 2016, maybe as early as the
:16:52. > :16:57.summer, the British could vote to leave the EU. If they made that
:16:58. > :17:00.decision, would France withdraw all of the security and border
:17:01. > :17:09.cooperation with Britain? Would you let the migrants travel across the
:17:10. > :17:14.Channel? I hope after the referendum the UK will remain in the EU. At
:17:15. > :17:19.this time of crisis, I think it is in the interest of the UK to remain
:17:20. > :17:24.in the EU and it is in the interest of Europe to stay united. Because we
:17:25. > :17:29.are facing so much challenges. What is at stake is our mother of
:17:30. > :17:35.society. Are you saying that Britain would face a greater real migration
:17:36. > :17:39.challenge? A bigger migration problem, if it withdrew from the EU?
:17:40. > :17:48.I don't say this. I think it will be much more complicated for many
:17:49. > :17:55.cooperation... We won't withdraw co-operation. The interior minister
:17:56. > :17:58.told the British last year, last October, that if they withdrew from
:17:59. > :18:01.the European Union they could forget about the kind of co-operation they
:18:02. > :18:07.get now. We will co-operate, but it will be much more complicated. When
:18:08. > :18:12.we are in the European Union we have a set of rules, we have a framework,
:18:13. > :18:18.we have a lot of co-operation, we make decisions together. It was said
:18:19. > :18:23.that the UK can expect countermeasures if it decides to
:18:24. > :18:28.quit the EU. I don't think he was speaking about controlling the
:18:29. > :18:33.board. Of course it is much easier to co-operate when you are in the
:18:34. > :18:42.same political union, like the European Union. My point is that
:18:43. > :18:47.Europe was not prepared to deal with this crisis, when security is
:18:48. > :18:51.becoming the first issue for European citizens. Because of
:18:52. > :19:00.terrorism, because of the refugee crisis. There is the issue of the
:19:01. > :19:05.control of the border. There is also the external policies, but it is the
:19:06. > :19:12.fact that Europe was built on economic issues. The internal
:19:13. > :19:18.market, currency, not on the issue of security and defence. We have to
:19:19. > :19:27.build this. Otherwise we will see every member state withdraw. Less
:19:28. > :19:30.cooperation to fight against terrorism, there will be less
:19:31. > :19:38.efficiency. It is in other ways that we have to welcome... So I wish the
:19:39. > :19:45.UK will remain in the EU. But more generally I think we have to build
:19:46. > :19:49.the European coastguard and we have to exchange more information on
:19:50. > :19:52.terrorist networks. I think we have to defend together our open and
:19:53. > :19:59.democratic society. You are saying to Britain, we want you to stay, but
:20:00. > :20:04.Europe will require more integration, more common purpose,
:20:05. > :20:09.whether it be on security, defence, whatever? You know that Mr Cameron
:20:10. > :20:12.and the British are bringing a message to Europe saying, we will
:20:13. > :20:19.stay but only if you give us concession so that we can be more
:20:20. > :20:25.separate from integration. On some issues, like UK is not part of the
:20:26. > :20:30.European currency, the euro... But Britain now wants to get permission
:20:31. > :20:36.to impose new limits on access to benefits for other European citizens
:20:37. > :20:43.who come to the United Kingdom. Now, Germany and the Netherlands and even
:20:44. > :20:47.John -- Jean-Claude Juncker leave a deal can be done with the UK. The
:20:48. > :20:52.French government hasn't taken that line at all. In fact, Mr Hollande in
:20:53. > :20:58.2015 suggested that he could understand if Britain felt that it
:20:59. > :21:02.-- felt the way it did about Europe but it's a logical path. Leave
:21:03. > :21:05.Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy. The question is, do you
:21:06. > :21:10.really want to participate in a common state? That tone suggests he
:21:11. > :21:14.doesn't really care if Britain leaves. I think it was very
:21:15. > :21:19.respectful of the serenity of the British citizen. It is up to the
:21:20. > :21:24.British people and its citizens to decide if he wants to be part of the
:21:25. > :21:30.EU. But the point is the Germans really want us to stay. We want the
:21:31. > :21:36.UK to stay. It is the same declaration, president of armed also
:21:37. > :21:42.says he would prefer that the UK stays. -- President Hollande. But
:21:43. > :21:47.only if the UK goes down this route. What he has explained in many
:21:48. > :21:52.conferences is that we wish we will be an agreement at the next European
:21:53. > :21:55.conference, in a few weeks. We wish there will be something which will
:21:56. > :22:01.be an adequate answer to the demand of the United Kingdom. But not at
:22:02. > :22:09.the expense of the fundamental principles of the EU and its policy
:22:10. > :22:16.and there is a possibility for those who want a closer union to have it.
:22:17. > :22:22.Some member states don't participate with the common currency, or the
:22:23. > :22:27.Schengen. We don't have a problem with this, but we want respect for
:22:28. > :22:33.the fact that some of them want more integration. The final question. I
:22:34. > :22:37.wonder whether you would say that, given all of the challenges you have
:22:38. > :22:41.outlined that Europe faces, security, defence, migration
:22:42. > :22:48.challenges, all of these big issues, do you think the British question is
:22:49. > :22:54.a dangerous distraction? I think that if you look at this year, 2016,
:22:55. > :23:00.for Europe, it's a year of danger, because there is the risk of
:23:01. > :23:03.dislocation. What is the British question, is that a dangerous
:23:04. > :23:10.distraction from what really matters in Europe today? You know, if the
:23:11. > :23:13.referendum were going bad it would be the first time that a member
:23:14. > :23:21.state would leave the EU and it is one of the biggest member states. In
:23:22. > :23:28.all other member states there is a very strong political movement, a
:23:29. > :23:33.populist movement, who argue is sceptical, nationalist, campaigning
:23:34. > :23:38.against Europe. -- who are Eurosceptic. Europe wants to
:23:39. > :23:44.increase its performance. It has to improve. But I think it is very
:23:45. > :23:49.important to preserve it. That's why of course we wish that the UK will
:23:50. > :23:54.decide to stay, to remain, in the European Union. Not because it is
:23:55. > :23:59.perfect, not because everything is solved, because we will be stronger
:24:00. > :24:02.to solve the problem together. We have to end there. Harlem Desir,
:24:03. > :24:29.thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you.
:24:30. > :24:36.we can expect things to feel quite different.
:24:37. > :24:41.But for the time being, we are stuck in a deep freeze again